Re: Bolger 20' - Chebacco or Long Micro?

To add to the choices, there is a raised shelter house version of
Chebacco and an off-shore version with a pilothouse and then also the 25
foot clinker hull if you want more space for passengers.

Bolger wrote about the later:.. `the longer length lets her go faster in
a good breeze or under power. She planes cleanly with a 15-h.p. motor at
low cruising r.p.m. (BWAOM Page 229)`

I look forward to seeing sailing photos of the one that is being built,
and how the Solent lug main does, if indeed that is what the builder
goes with.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Bill
>
> Very much my own thoughts... I singlehand a lot. However, I have found
that on the occasions people want to tag along it's more than fit in
Oldshoe (if you know what I mean). In protected waters 3 or 4 adults
plus some kids is more likely. Otherwise a whole pile of kids and myself
>
> For coastal sailing I tend to veer towards Long Micro. I remember
reading somewhere about fitting a drop keel to improve windward ability.
Does anyone have real first hand experience?
>
> Very much appreciate all the feedback/thoughts.
>
>
> David
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" kingw@ wrote:
> >
> > David,
> > I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake
Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake
Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco
but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like
the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead
in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I
have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to
windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my
Chebacco brothers and sisters.
> > 1. no comment
> > 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind
they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots
downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
> > 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit
space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another
person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will
fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
> > 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four
people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side
of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
> > 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor,
dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
> >
> > Bill, in Texas
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the
constructive kind.
> > >
> > > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking
at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for
which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for
short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am
talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
> > >
> > > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
> > >
> > > - Boats with an Open Mind
> > > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
> > > - 30 Odd boats
> > > - 103 Rigs
> > >
> > > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle
and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to
add).
> > > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by
different people on the internet.
> > >
> > > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of
dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
> > >
> > > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still
trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
> > > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
> > > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or
2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
> > > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable
conditions)
> > > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
> > > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know
for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his
most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black
Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too
short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor),
Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor
and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability
issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good
candidate)]
> > >
> > > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
> > >
> >
>

If you look at the last video I put up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ_qk2MNsuI

you can see that the Micro holds its own off the wind with the Chebacco
in smooth water.

HJ

On 2/27/2012 11:59 AM, Peter wrote:
> I've never sailed either an LM or a Chebacco so I should probably keep right out of it, but I will note that long cruises have been made boats of both designs.
>
> In the matter of suitability to the local conditions, I suspect that anything one can take, the other can too, but the experience may not be the same.
>
> LM is going to be subject to the occasional withering crash that PCB predicted for Jesse Cooper. OTOH, someone once wrote that his Chebacco loved waves.
>
> Chebacco has a centerboard that's deeper than LM's keel which might be helpful clawing upwind. And there are some reports of Chebacco being remarkably fast downwind. OTOH, two people cruising are going to be more comfortable in the cabin of LM.
>
> I've read reports that the LM rig is generous, so learn to reef. That would also suggest she's good in light air.
>
> As far as other PB&F designs, there is the 20' sharpie (revised version) that a man and his daughter took down the Mississippi, the very pretty triple keel sloop, etc.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Thanks Bill

Very much my own thoughts... I singlehand a lot. However, I have found that on the occasions people want to tag along it's more than fit in Oldshoe (if you know what I mean). In protected waters 3 or 4 adults plus some kids is more likely. Otherwise a whole pile of kids and myself

For coastal sailing I tend to veer towards Long Micro. I remember reading somewhere about fitting a drop keel to improve windward ability. Does anyone have real first hand experience?

Very much appreciate all the feedback/thoughts.


David

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> David,
> I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my Chebacco brothers and sisters.
> 1. no comment
> 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
> 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
> 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
> 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor, dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
>
> Bill, in Texas
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
> >
> > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.
> >
> > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
> >
> > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
> >
> > - Boats with an Open Mind
> > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
> > - 30 Odd boats
> > - 103 Rigs
> >
> > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
> > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.
> >
> > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
> >
> > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
> > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
> > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
> > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
> > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
> > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
> >
> > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
> >
>

New Thread:

My thinking would lead me more towards the Long Micro if dealing with a
rocky coastline. First it has the ability to handle a 9.9 Yamaha
high-thrust OB - Mr Bolger's favorite OB - for clawing off in a pinch.
Not sure Chebacco could take one. Secondly it has more chance of
self-rigthing with the lead keel under it.

Lastly would consider the Micro Navigator mods for even more security
for the crew.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "William" <kingw@...> wrote:
>
> David,
> I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake
Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake
Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco
but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like
the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead
in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I
have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to
windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my
Chebacco brothers and sisters.
> 1. no comment
> 2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind
they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots
downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
> 3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space,
you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person
under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit
two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
> 4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four
people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side
of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
> 5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor,
dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.
>
> Bill, in Texas
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" dir_cobb@ wrote:
> >
> > I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the
constructive kind.
> >
> > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at
building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which
I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short
cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am
talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
> >
> > I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
> >
> > - Boats with an Open Mind
> > - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
> > - 30 Odd boats
> > - 103 Rigs
> >
> > as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle
and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to
add).
> > and have looked at the designs by various people offered by
different people on the internet.
> >
> > With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming,
you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
> >
> > 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable
but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
> > 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
> > 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2
more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
> > 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable
conditions)
> > 5) Possible to singlehand decently
> > 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for
a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most
tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer
(too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on
WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs
Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too
heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and
not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
> >
> > Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
> >
>

With emphasis on the "20' boat (give or take)" I have just ordered plans for the Fast Motorsailer (22'7"x8'0"x9") (BWAOM page 324) because Phil wrote, "Its my belief that there has never before existed such a combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space, lightness and compactness, and low cost."

David,
I built and have sailed my LM for 4+ years now. I sailed her on Lake Erie, a small lake in Texas, and on two-week long adventures on Lake Huron (in 2010 and 2011). Like you, I seriously considered a Chebacco but in the end opted for the "ugly and disposable" (*cough*) LM. I like the stability of the flat bottom, plumb sides, and the big chunk of lead in the keel. Chebacco seemed more tender with less interior space but I have never sailed on one. Chebaccos are beautiful and I'd bet on one to windward and in light airs over the LM. I mean no disrespect to my Chebacco brothers and sisters.
1. no comment
2. LM's don't point great but I find mine sufficient. Off the wind they fly along. Speeds of 6+ knots are regular and I have hit 8.2 knots downwind (once. But once is enough to mention it).
3. If you build to the plans with the large, open under-cockpit space, you will have ample space to sleep two. You might fit another person under the cockpit, but it would be cramped. The cockpit seat will fit two 6'6" long people sleeping side-by-side.
4. Six people on an LM? That's pushing things. I have had four people sailing on my LM, and we could all sit side-by-side on one side of the cockpit. Six would be crowded; doable but not optimal.
5. I singlehand all the time. No issues. Reef, furl, anchor, motor, dock, maneuver. The mizzen is a very helpful.

Bill, in Texas

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.
>
> Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
>
> I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
>
> - Boats with an Open Mind
> - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
> - 30 Odd boats
> - 103 Rigs
>
> as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
> and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.
>
> With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
>
> 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
> 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
> 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
> 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
> 5) Possible to singlehand decently
> 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
>
> Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
>

I've never sailed either an LM or a Chebacco so I should probably keep right out of it, but I will note that long cruises have been made boats of both designs.

In the matter of suitability to the local conditions, I suspect that anything one can take, the other can too, but the experience may not be the same.

LM is going to be subject to the occasional withering crash that PCB predicted for Jesse Cooper. OTOH, someone once wrote that his Chebacco loved waves.

Chebacco has a centerboard that's deeper than LM's keel which might be helpful clawing upwind. And there are some reports of Chebacco being remarkably fast downwind. OTOH, two people cruising are going to be more comfortable in the cabin of LM.

I've read reports that the LM rig is generous, so learn to reef. That would also suggest she's good in light air.

As far as other PB&F designs, there is the 20' sharpie (revised version) that a man and his daughter took down the Mississippi, the very pretty triple keel sloop, etc.

Those links refer to the far South of Chile (known as the canal zone) from Chiloe to Cape Horn

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
> > Even in bays, it is generally a steep coast so the risk of grounding is less than the risk of being smashed against rocks on the coast...
>
>
>http://iron-bark.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/chile-pilotage-notes.html
>
>http://anniehill.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Chile
>

Black Skimmer design already came with a pair of 2"x2" mast-partners extending forward from the
front edge of the cabin, which surround the mast when in-place. Same goes for some sort of
structure at the base of the mast where it rests on the bottom of the boat in that forward
cockpit-well. (tho mine was modified before I got the boat, so not quite "to plans")



Now Phil Bolger's sketch showed a beautifully-fabricated tubular mast-collar (he assumed my mast was
the originally-spec'd round shape), especially with a bit of a flare at the top and a tinier flare
at the bottom, to avoid "hard-spots" that could pinch and crush the wood-fibers where the mast exits
the collar, especially as this mast DOES bend a bit... way too complex for me to build -- but the
sketch was the first proof to me that the mast-heel would "clear" the confines of the forward
cockpit -- as I remember, it DID require the pivot-point to be raised a few inches off-deck for all
this geometry to "work"



Since our local galvanizer had a $100 minimum-charge, I hoped to find some pre-galvanized parts that
I could adapt -- and indeed I found some L-shaped angles from trailer-parts sources, which just
exactly provided both the wrap-around for the mast (mine was square at partners), which was held to
mast by long hose-clamps, and also to bolt to the cabin-top. LArge but short bolts either side
provided the pivot-pin. I have no idea whether these parts still exist. As I remember, I had to
cut some portion of the part off, with a hack-saw, and was willing to live with any rusting that
might occur under the paint I applied -- but the adjacent galvanizing seemed to protect the surface
from any significant corrosion...



Crude but effective -- worked fine for many years!





Very hard to describe, and I'm not sure if attachments will transmit across the group-site... so I
put some shots up in a new "album" named
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/2100768550/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1
&dir=asc> Fabricated mast tabernacle Black Skimmer, in photos section of Yahoogroup "bolger"



This mast was pretty darned heavy to lift-up into place even WITH such a hard-pivot-point, as the
mast was some 35' long! (this was in fact the mast from Dr Richard Zapf's "Red Zinger", as that
gorgeously-built tapered box-section mast and mainsail was nearly identical to the Black-Skimmer
spec'd rig -- and I was able to buy it from Dr Zapf when he converted his boat to a tubular aluminum
mast so he could fly spinnakers... my original mast, laminated solid from 2x6 lumber, had rotted
completely by storing it on-ground only one off-season!)



So I hoisted this mast into place while the boat was still on-trailer, using the trailer-winch! ..
by extending the pull-point of that winch bow-strap way high on a 10' removable "gin-pole" that had
a roller at its upper end... This steel pole fit into the hollow-tube that supported the
trailer-winch, and was transported strapped to the trailer under the boat. Then the trailer-strap
could be connected about as high as I could reach up-mast (once mast was up), and the geometry
worked great to be able to slowly winch the mast up and into locked position. (I had a big block of
epoxied wood that fit at mast's base, to lock the heel --which bolted in-place with big wing-nuts).
Took two to raise the mast (one winching, the other "walking it up", but it was all controlled, with
no panic-moments up or down...



My apologies to the condition (as you can see in the photos) that I allowed that boat to decline to
-- but she DID go to a good home somewhere near Spokane WA, with promises that the new owner would
do the complete re-finish that she deserved..



Regards,

Wayne Gilham

...who also rigged very helpful "gallows" each side, to easily raise/lower the leeboards using
multi-part block&tackle from anywhere in the cockpit --- finally allowed single-handing the boat, as
it was no longer necessary to "stand over" the edge of the board needing to be raised (which you
sure as heck can't do and still hold the tiller!) -- another story, another post



From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 2:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Steel Tabernacle was: Bolger 20' - Chebacco or Long Micro?





Wayne,

you have got me (and maybe others) interested with your mention of a galv steel tabernacle.

I am building a Chebacco 25 which, like the black skimmer, is designed for a mast tabernacle where
the foot rotates through the forward anchor well area. (not sure which came first, but the designs
in this area are very similar). I have looked at the design as per the plans as well as a few others
(notably the Norwalk Island Sharpie which has an unstayed mast with galvanised fabricated
tabernacle) to get some ideas for improvements.

I would be interested in seeing any photos of the tabernacle you describe.

Regards,

Andrew

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> , "Wayne Gilham" <wgilham@...>
wrote:

>
> I owned a Black Skimmer for a number of years, and indeed trailered her without difficulty -

behind

> only a mini-van!.
>
>
>
> Some details that helped trailering:
>
> 1) I put that long mast into a hinged tabernacle built-up of easily-available galvanized steel
> parts -- concept was designed by Phil Bolger -- heel of mast DOES swing easily thru the forward
> anchoring cockpit. Details, photos and Phil's drawing available, only if you DO pursue this boat.
>
> 2) Mast, Boom, mizzen-mast and all the other "sticks" were easily supported by a "gallows" put

into

> the mizzen-mast partners, for traveling. Needs a "red flag" on the end of the mast, as it's a good
> ten feet longer than the boat!
>
> 3) I built a platform on the forward part of the trailer to bolt-down the leeboards - they were
> removed each trailering-episode from the boat so as to not strain the wings that support them.

Took

> only a few minutes.
>
> 4) trailer needs side-poles to ensure boat comes up "centered" on the trailer, as there's no
> Vee-shape to drop boat to center when you drive her out up the ramp...
>
>
>
> The boat, of course, is highly recommended; she sails very quick! Safe, too, even with her very
> large cockpit, as she is self-righting (from that steel internal ballast; 3 pieces of simple
> rectangular sheet-steel for easy installation), self-bailing, and essentially unsinkable if built
> to plan.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Wayne Gilham
>
> who trailered my Black Skimmer 3 hours from Philadelphia area to Northern Chesapeake for my
> weekend sailing.
>

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4833 - Release Date: 02/26/12

David,

the chebacco #540RD offers higher freeboard and hence safety, more internal storage spaces and options and a comprehensive building key which is well thought out. You can find more details if you search the Chebacco.com site. The RD plans are only available from Susanne.

Andrew

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie" <jas_orr@...> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> A Chebacco meets your requirements 1, 2 and 5, and can, with a little extra effort, meet 3, 4 and 6.
>
> For #3, it will sleep two large adults in the cabin but carrying cruising gear you'll have to put some of it in the cockpit to make space. To sleep 3 or 4 you'll want a boom tent, this is a big plus even when cruising single-handed. I've slept up to four aboard quite comfortably with this. To see how we leveled the cockpit for sleeping go to www.chebacco.com and click on issue 1; to see WL's boom tent go tohttp://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/articles/broken/index.htm
>
> For # 4, six is a lot of bodies when sailing with any kind of wind. However, there is enough seating and you could motor home if necessary. If winds of more than, say, 12 knots are expected I don't want more than three in the cockpit - four in a pinch.
>
> For #6, Bolger did not provide building guidelines for the Chebacco. As he pointed out when I bought my plans, he originally drew the design for a professional who knew what to do. Bolger recommended following Payson's "Build the New Instant Boats" - that with some thought will see you through. Also, Bill Samson posted his guidelines in Chebacco News, and these along with all of the old Chebacco News are on the www.chebacco.com website. I believe they are also provided in Harold Payson's last book.
>
> As far as cruising in Chile, all I know is from my reading which highlighted some very strong winds in some areas. I'm sure there are adequately sheltered waters too, but you might want to research your proposed cruising grounds. The big cockpit (6'x7') and lack of ballast could be liabilities in really bad conditions. (I doubt if Long Micro would fare very well in those conditions either - my opinion only.)
>
> So overall, Chebacco would be a great choice as long as you pick your cruising grounds and/or your weather with care. I cruise in sheltered waters on the BC coast, mostly inside Vancouver Island , and love the boat.
>
> Jamie
>

Wayne,

you have got me (and maybe others) interested with your mention of a galv steel tabernacle.

I am building a Chebacco 25 which, like the black skimmer, is designed for a mast tabernacle where the foot rotates through the forward anchor well area. (not sure which came first, but the designs in this area are very similar). I have looked at the design as per the plans as well as a few others (notably the Norwalk Island Sharpie which has an unstayed mast with galvanised fabricated tabernacle) to get some ideas for improvements.

I would be interested in seeing any photos of the tabernacle you describe.

Regards,

Andrew

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Gilham" <wgilham@...> wrote:
>
> I owned a Black Skimmer for a number of years, and indeed trailered her without difficulty - behind
> only a mini-van!.
>
>
>
> Some details that helped trailering:
>
> 1) I put that long mast into a hinged tabernacle built-up of easily-available galvanized steel
> parts -- concept was designed by Phil Bolger -- heel of mast DOES swing easily thru the forward
> anchoring cockpit. Details, photos and Phil's drawing available, only if you DO pursue this boat.
>
> 2) Mast, Boom, mizzen-mast and all the other "sticks" were easily supported by a "gallows" put into
> the mizzen-mast partners, for traveling. Needs a "red flag" on the end of the mast, as it's a good
> ten feet longer than the boat!
>
> 3) I built a platform on the forward part of the trailer to bolt-down the leeboards - they were
> removed each trailering-episode from the boat so as to not strain the wings that support them. Took
> only a few minutes.
>
> 4) trailer needs side-poles to ensure boat comes up "centered" on the trailer, as there's no
> Vee-shape to drop boat to center when you drive her out up the ramp...
>
>
>
> The boat, of course, is highly recommended; she sails very quick! Safe, too, even with her very
> large cockpit, as she is self-righting (from that steel internal ballast; 3 pieces of simple
> rectangular sheet-steel for easy installation), self-bailing, and essentially unsinkable if built
> to plan.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Wayne Gilham
>
> who trailered my Black Skimmer 3 hours from Philadelphia area to Northern Chesapeake for my
> weekend sailing.
>

"> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:

> >

...Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)...."

The mods to MJ including the sponsons and the house resolve knock down recovery problems for the design without hurting other attributes. One could build with flat steel shoe on the bottom plus some internal steel or lead ballast replacing the water ballast, and gaining internal storage space. This does impact trailering since it then must be towed w' the boat, not drained and left behind.

If I built an MJ, I would hang the rudder or rudders off the stern to simplify construction. I'd do Michalak style kick up rudders.

David,

A Chebacco meets your requirements 1, 2 and 5, and can, with a little extra effort, meet 3, 4 and 6.

For #3, it will sleep two large adults in the cabin but carrying cruising gear you'll have to put some of it in the cockpit to make space. To sleep 3 or 4 you'll want a boom tent, this is a big plus even when cruising single-handed. I've slept up to four aboard quite comfortably with this. To see how we leveled the cockpit for sleeping go to www.chebacco.com and click on issue 1; to see WL's boom tent go tohttp://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/articles/broken/index.htm

For # 4, six is a lot of bodies when sailing with any kind of wind. However, there is enough seating and you could motor home if necessary. If winds of more than, say, 12 knots are expected I don't want more than three in the cockpit - four in a pinch.

For #6, Bolger did not provide building guidelines for the Chebacco. As he pointed out when I bought my plans, he originally drew the design for a professional who knew what to do. Bolger recommended following Payson's "Build the New Instant Boats" - that with some thought will see you through. Also, Bill Samson posted his guidelines in Chebacco News, and these along with all of the old Chebacco News are on the www.chebacco.com website. I believe they are also provided in Harold Payson's last book.

As far as cruising in Chile, all I know is from my reading which highlighted some very strong winds in some areas. I'm sure there are adequately sheltered waters too, but you might want to research your proposed cruising grounds. The big cockpit (6'x7') and lack of ballast could be liabilities in really bad conditions. (I doubt if Long Micro would fare very well in those conditions either - my opinion only.)

So overall, Chebacco would be a great choice as long as you pick your cruising grounds and/or your weather with care. I cruise in sheltered waters on the BC coast, mostly inside Vancouver Island , and love the boat.

Jamie

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.
>
> Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
>
> I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:
>
> - Boats with an Open Mind
> - Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
> - 30 Odd boats
> - 103 Rigs
>
> as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
> and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.
>
> With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:
>
> 1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
> 2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
> 3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more3 if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
> 4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
> 5) Possible to singlehand decently
> 6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]
>
> Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:

> Even in bays, it is generally a steep coast so the risk of grounding is less than the risk of being smashed against rocks on the coast...

http://iron-bark.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/chile-pilotage-notes.html

http://anniehill.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Chile

I owned a Black Skimmer for a number of years, and indeed trailered her without difficulty - behind
only a mini-van!.



Some details that helped trailering:

1) I put that long mast into a hinged tabernacle built-up of easily-available galvanized steel
parts -- concept was designed by Phil Bolger -- heel of mast DOES swing easily thru the forward
anchoring cockpit. Details, photos and Phil's drawing available, only if you DO pursue this boat.

2) Mast, Boom, mizzen-mast and all the other "sticks" were easily supported by a "gallows" put into
the mizzen-mast partners, for traveling. Needs a "red flag" on the end of the mast, as it's a good
ten feet longer than the boat!

3) I built a platform on the forward part of the trailer to bolt-down the leeboards - they were
removed each trailering-episode from the boat so as to not strain the wings that support them. Took
only a few minutes.

4) trailer needs side-poles to ensure boat comes up "centered" on the trailer, as there's no
Vee-shape to drop boat to center when you drive her out up the ramp...



The boat, of course, is highly recommended; she sails very quick! Safe, too, even with her very
large cockpit, as she is self-righting (from that steel internal ballast; 3 pieces of simple
rectangular sheet-steel for easy installation), self-bailing, and essentially unsinkable if built
to plan.



Regards,

Wayne Gilham

who trailered my Black Skimmer 3 hours from Philadelphia area to Northern Chesapeake for my
weekend sailing.







From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:32 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Bolger 20' - Chebacco or Long Micro?





I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.

Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but
not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on
board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the
Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...

I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:

- Boats with an Open Mind
- Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
- 30 Odd boats
- 103 Rigs

as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak,
Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.

With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the
choice to these two boats:

1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size
(less sensitive to trim).
2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and
they are smallish).
4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
5) Possible to singlehand decently
6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction
guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the
Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers
simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this
stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not
too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]

Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4828 - Release Date: 02/23/12

Good question Roger.

My sailing grounds (for coastal sailing) will be central Chile. Say from about 29°50'S to 39°50'S with home port being around 33°S, generally with prospects of decent weather. Do note that there is a tendency off the Chilean coast for strong winds (50 knots +) for short periods in the afternoon.

Safe harbours are not plentiful so any vessel must be capable of fending for itself in bad conditions if doing any more than bay sailing. Even in bays, it is generally a steep coast so the risk of grounding is less than the risk of being smashed against rocks on the coast.

Lake use will also be plentiful.

David

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> David,
> Probably most of us, including me, have very little idea of what the geography, weather, or sea conditions of the Chilean coast is like. I just took a look at some maps, and Chile is very long, and includes about as much coastline as there is from southern Alaska to central Mexico. So at the least the coastline crosses several climate zones where there are significant differences in the prevailing winds and climate.
>
> Are you thinking of sailing the whole coast of Chile, including the stretch along the Atacama Desert in the north and the islands by Cape Horn in the south?
>
> If not sailing the entire coast, what range of latitude are you thinking of sailing in?
>
> When you ask us to bear in mind that the Chilean coast is where you will be sailing, what exactly are you asking us to bear in mind?
>
> What little I do know of Chile causes me to wonder if one small boat could be suitable for the whole coastline. It seems to me that a boat that is suitable for northern Chile wouldn't do so well in southern Chile, and a boat suitable for southern Chile wouldn't be suitable for northern Chile - 2,700 miles of latitude change is a huge amount when its all on one side of the equator.
>
> So I'm wondering exactly where you are thinking of sailing and how broadly adaptable you want the boat to be.
>
> A specific issue is the distance between safe harbors where you can escape from severe weather. How closely are these located along the coast? How likely is it that you would end up having to ride out a storm in the open ocean, and worse yet, be near the coast while the storm is blowing you towards the coast?
>
> Sincerely,
> Roger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David" <dir_cobb@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:31 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Bolger 20' - Chebacco or Long Micro?
> >
> > Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...
> >
>

I know this may spark some controversy, but I hope it is of the constructive kind.

Having built Oldshoe, Reubens Nymph and Zephyr, I am now looking at building something larger (but not as large as Loose Moose II, for which I already have plans) fit for trailering, sleeping on board for short cruises, possible coastal capabilities (bearing in mind that I am talking about the Chilean coast) and generally fun and safe...

I have, as many of us, studied all the Bolger books I possess:

- Boats with an Open Mind
- Bolger Boats (Small Boats and The Floating Schooner)
- 30 Odd boats
- 103 Rigs

as well as all the Payson books, and LF Herreshoff and H Chapelle and Pete Culler, Michalak, Atkin,... (as my wife would not hesitate to add).
and have looked at the designs by various people offered by different people on the internet.

With study plans to a few hundred boats and many hours of dreaming, you may ask why I limit the choice to these two boats:

1) I want a 20' boat (give or take) because it is still trailerable but well out of dinghy size (less sensitive to trim).
2) Speed is good enough to actually get somewhere
3) Good sleeping space for 2 and possible sleeping space for 1 or 2 more if push comes to shove (and they are smallish).
4) Daysailing capacity for 6 or so in protected waters (reasonable conditions)
5) Possible to singlehand decently
6) I like Bolger's boats, including the thought process and know for a fact that his construction guidelines work. These are two of his most tested models in the size range. [Runners up would be the Black Skimmer (too heavy and large to trailer easily), Micro (slightly too short on WL), Bolgers simplified Rozinante (too heavy and no motor), Herreshoffs Rozinante (too complicated for me at this stage and no motor and too heavy), Martha Jane (there's a lot of talk about stability issues and not too sure about leeboards, otherwise a very good candidate)]

Appreciate comments specially from Chebacco/Long Micro owners.