Re: [bolger] Re: Reefing Bolger's usual Cat Yawl
On 03/11/2012 10:47 AM, c.ruzer wrote:
Aluminium... Doug is this author, Stephen F. Pollard, a relation?http://www.amazon.com/dp/0071443185/ref=pe_160270_22910840_pe_vfe_dt2#_
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard<dougpol1@...>wrote:
> I Built Bolgers Wolftrap
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
> I Built Bolgers Wolftrap
If you do the method of moving the sprit boom forward you need to do something to capture it to the main mast or it will bang, plus you end up with line in your way and a bad angle for the mainsheet. I did it that way the first couple of years I had Micro. I changed to tying the reef point to the boom. I used the same kind of jiffy/slab reefing described by others. Slack the snotter and the downhaul drop the main enough (you’ll know once you have done it), yank the slab, tie off the reef point and re-tension everything. I have cleats on the back edge of the cabin roof. The whole thing takes about a minute, two at the most.
MylesJ
>I never shift the sheet....but if the sprit boom does extend far forward the sheet will pretty well sweep the cockpit!
> > It is such a light and "simple" rig that maybe everyone
> > simply drops the sail on the deck, ties in the reef, and re hoists.
>
> That's what I think, but PCB designed several variations of the Black Skipper type of rig to make reefing easier.
>
> 1. Use a short piece of spinnaker pole track on the front of the mast to take the snotter. This is clearly seen on the cover of BWAOM.
>
> 2. Use a "claw" (i.e. incomplete circle) around the mast so the snotter can be removed and replaced between a different set of sail grommets. One of my notions was to use a regular hoop for full sail, but switch to a claw (or perhaps a fabric strop) when reefing.
>
> 3. Copy the Nonesuch catboat rig and have the snotter attached to a bridle more or less the way a bridle is used between a gaff and the peak halyard.
>
> I suspect that these considerations were partly responsible for PCB going to a lug rig on the mizzen of many designs.
>
> I also wondered some about the mainsheet attachment at the end of the boom. You can let the boom run forward and tie the "new clew" at the boom end. (This was the Pete Culler method for small boats.) That makes it difficult to deal with the tack area of the full sail. Or you can tie the clew down forward of the mainsheet creating a big bending moment. So, do you shift the sheet too?
>
> Peter
>
On 03/07/2012 06:36 PM,Susanne@...wrote:Hi! Susanne. I had a lot of respect for the man and his work and I miss is ideas, and writing. So if there something Susanne is there something I can do for you I would be glad to? DougMr. Pollard,Phil would feel quite pleased indeed with your seasoned perspective. Please contact me privately atphilbolger@....
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----From:Douglas PollardSent:Wednesday, March 07, 2012 6:00 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] Re: Reefing Bolger's usual Cat YawlOn 03/07/2012 01:39 PM, Peter wrote:
> That makes it difficult to deal with the tack area of the full sail.
> Or you can tie the clew down forward of the mainsheet creating a big
> bending moment. So, do you shift the sheet too?
I Built Bolgers Wolftrap with his cat yawl rig. The only excepton was we
put a top yard that went straight up the mast and stood well above the
mast head, 10ft I think and it was of his design. The idea was that the
boat was over canvased ( at my request) for the Chesapeke bay light air
during July and August. The main could be reefed with the top yard
about as high as the top of the mast. Reefing was about what you would
expect withe the problems about what you guys are expressing here. But
I would not replace the laseing with a track. First kow now that you
can carry more sail longer than can a Burmuda rig. With a Bermuda rig
you are hauling the lower part of the main into midships in order to
keep the top of the sail from luffing. This creates a lot of healing
moment so you need to reef sooner. So when others are reefing you are
still sailing like a bat out of hell and not healing to any extreme
amount. So while everyone else is slowing down you are just coming into
your own. If you reef the same time everyone else does you will be doing
it from a flat deck. It will be a little more trouble but you have more
time to do it than the other guy. Also your boat is healing less with a
couple thousand pounds less ballast as well as $20,000 less tied up in
rigging if your boat is 30 ft.
The big deal with the lacing is that the round mast on the windward
side of the sail with the luff swung around to the leeward side acts
like the leading edge of a modern airplane wing it's forward flaps slid
forward to increase lift. The mast increses lift on the leading edge of
the luff. A sail on a track has the mast off the leeward side of the
luff creating disturbance and zero lift. Don't forget when sailig to
windward with Bolgers sprit rig your sail is way off the wind as
compared to the bermuda rig while delivering more thrust in the forward
direction on the hull. The rig is a winner in every respect and messing
with it will serve to do more damage than good. Every time I have tried
to outguess Mr. Bolger I have come up on the short end of the stick. I
would say after you have sailed one of his boats for 10 years you may
want to modify the rig. Don't do it. Build a new one and keep the old
one in the shed so you can put it back after playing with yours. Mr
Bolger Knew what he was doing. Notice I am 78 years old and I call him
mister. I do that out of respect for his integrity and and his geniouse
and carft. Doug
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:Douglas PollardSent:Wednesday, March 07, 2012 6:00 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] Re: Reefing Bolger's usual Cat YawlOn 03/07/2012 01:39 PM, Peter wrote:
> That makes it difficult to deal with the tack area of the full sail.
> Or you can tie the clew down forward of the mainsheet creating a big
> bending moment. So, do you shift the sheet too?
I Built Bolgers Wolftrap with his cat yawl rig. The only excepton was we
put a top yard that went straight up the mast and stood well above the
mast head, 10ft I think and it was of his design. The idea was that the
boat was over canvased ( at my request) for the Chesapeke bay light air
during July and August. The main could be reefed with the top yard
about as high as the top of the mast. Reefing was about what you would
expect withe the problems about what you guys are expressing here. But
I would not replace the laseing with a track. First kow now that you
can carry more sail longer than can a Burmuda rig. With a Bermuda rig
you are hauling the lower part of the main into midships in order to
keep the top of the sail from luffing. This creates a lot of healing
moment so you need to reef sooner. So when others are reefing you are
still sailing like a bat out of hell and not healing to any extreme
amount. So while everyone else is slowing down you are just coming into
your own. If you reef the same time everyone else does you will be doing
it from a flat deck. It will be a little more trouble but you have more
time to do it than the other guy. Also your boat is healing less with a
couple thousand pounds less ballast as well as $20,000 less tied up in
rigging if your boat is 30 ft.
The big deal with the lacing is that the round mast on the windward
side of the sail with the luff swung around to the leeward side acts
like the leading edge of a modern airplane wing it's forward flaps slid
forward to increase lift. The mast increses lift on the leading edge of
the luff. A sail on a track has the mast off the leeward side of the
luff creating disturbance and zero lift. Don't forget when sailig to
windward with Bolgers sprit rig your sail is way off the wind as
compared to the bermuda rig while delivering more thrust in the forward
direction on the hull. The rig is a winner in every respect and messing
with it will serve to do more damage than good. Every time I have tried
to outguess Mr. Bolger I have come up on the short end of the stick. I
would say after you have sailed one of his boats for 10 years you may
want to modify the rig. Don't do it. Build a new one and keep the old
one in the shed so you can put it back after playing with yours. Mr
Bolger Knew what he was doing. Notice I am 78 years old and I call him
mister. I do that out of respect for his integrity and and his geniouse
and carft. Doug
> That makes it difficult to deal with the tack area of the full sail.I Built Bolgers Wolftrap with his cat yawl rig. The only excepton was we
> Or you can tie the clew down forward of the mainsheet creating a big
> bending moment. So, do you shift the sheet too?
put a top yard that went straight up the mast and stood well above the
mast head, 10ft I think and it was of his design. The idea was that the
boat was over canvased ( at my request) for the Chesapeke bay light air
during July and August. The main could be reefed with the top yard
about as high as the top of the mast. Reefing was about what you would
expect withe the problems about what you guys are expressing here. But
I would not replace the laseing with a track. First kow now that you
can carry more sail longer than can a Burmuda rig. With a Bermuda rig
you are hauling the lower part of the main into midships in order to
keep the top of the sail from luffing. This creates a lot of healing
moment so you need to reef sooner. So when others are reefing you are
still sailing like a bat out of hell and not healing to any extreme
amount. So while everyone else is slowing down you are just coming into
your own. If you reef the same time everyone else does you will be doing
it from a flat deck. It will be a little more trouble but you have more
time to do it than the other guy. Also your boat is healing less with a
couple thousand pounds less ballast as well as $20,000 less tied up in
rigging if your boat is 30 ft.
The big deal with the lacing is that the round mast on the windward
side of the sail with the luff swung around to the leeward side acts
like the leading edge of a modern airplane wing it's forward flaps slid
forward to increase lift. The mast increses lift on the leading edge of
the luff. A sail on a track has the mast off the leeward side of the
luff creating disturbance and zero lift. Don't forget when sailig to
windward with Bolgers sprit rig your sail is way off the wind as
compared to the bermuda rig while delivering more thrust in the forward
direction on the hull. The rig is a winner in every respect and messing
with it will serve to do more damage than good. Every time I have tried
to outguess Mr. Bolger I have come up on the short end of the stick. I
would say after you have sailed one of his boats for 10 years you may
want to modify the rig. Don't do it. Build a new one and keep the old
one in the shed so you can put it back after playing with yours. Mr
Bolger Knew what he was doing. Notice I am 78 years old and I call him
mister. I do that out of respect for his integrity and and his geniouse
and carft. Doug
> It is such a light and "simple" rig that maybe everyoneThat's what I think, but PCB designed several variations of the Black Skipper type of rig to make reefing easier.
> simply drops the sail on the deck, ties in the reef, and re hoists.
1. Use a short piece of spinnaker pole track on the front of the mast to take the snotter. This is clearly seen on the cover of BWAOM.
2. Use a "claw" (i.e. incomplete circle) around the mast so the snotter can be removed and replaced between a different set of sail grommets. One of my notions was to use a regular hoop for full sail, but switch to a claw (or perhaps a fabric strop) when reefing.
3. Copy the Nonesuch catboat rig and have the snotter attached to a bridle more or less the way a bridle is used between a gaff and the peak halyard.
I suspect that these considerations were partly responsible for PCB going to a lug rig on the mizzen of many designs.
I also wondered some about the mainsheet attachment at the end of the boom. You can let the boom run forward and tie the "new clew" at the boom end. (This was the Pete Culler method for small boats.) That makes it difficult to deal with the tack area of the full sail. Or you can tie the clew down forward of the mainsheet creating a big bending moment. So, do you shift the sheet too?
Peter
>That's a good description of how to reef a Black Skimmer Wayne! I can only add that if I want to prevent the sprit boom from extending too far forward I put a bowline in the reefing line for the clew outhaul and run it from the clew gromett to the reef gromet and back a few times, then make it fast with a clove hitch, as shown in L.F.H.'s Complete Cruiser. The sprit snotter is of course loose; when it's retightened the sail takes it's proper shape.
> I had another designer's cat-yawl rig before I had a Black Skimmer... from both, I found there is a
> bit of a problem to "drop the sail" using Phil's simple, standard lace-on around the mast to attach
> the luff: the "snotter" that pulls the sprit aft, connects to the forward side of the mast -- and
> will foul some of the lacings when you lower the sail to put in a reef. For that reason more than
> any other, I went to the added complications and expense of sail-track and slides, just so the
> mainsail could be dropped (for reefing OR for putting it away) without having to
> disconnect-reconnect the snotter.
>
>
>
> my sail had only a grommet (pressed-in ring) at the clew, similar ring up higher along the leech
> became the reefed clew. either ring was captured by a sstl hook bolted to the side of the sprit...
> another slight complication and extra expense (as my sprit-boom was a hollow box construction to be
> somewhat lighter than a sold stick)... a fork in the end of any solid sprit would suffice -- often
> designed to capture a short line tied to the clew with a knot a few inches out, to be captured in
> that fork. Same type of short line off the reefed-clew...
>
>
>
> Yes it WAS a bit tricky -- even sometimes "hairy" when really blowing -- to unhook the clew
> (loosening snotter first, of course) and grab the flailing leech to put hook of sprit into
> reefed-clew grommet... By easing the snotter a LOT, the shorter required length of the sprit (aft
> of mast) was accomplished. Okay for first reef; second reef found the sprit so far ahead of the
> mast, that I later put another hook about halfway along the sprit. Excess sail was gathered by
> "reef-points" = thin lines threaded thru small grommets along the new "foot", and always in-place.
> If stormy, I wouldn't bother with tieing-in the forward reef-points that I couldn't reach from the
> cockpit. Note that my sheet was firmly attached to the end of the sprit, NOT to the sail's clew!
> ...so I didn't have to re-tie the sheet when going thru this reefing drill.
>
>
>
> Oh yes, you also have to set up a second tack-line, to pull down and then fasten the reefed tack --
> typical slab-reefing!
>
>
>
> My prior boat's designer (Steve Wilce) did some experimentation with reefing by rolling up the main
> by rotating the mast... found that the tapered masts gave really poor shape for roller-reefed and
> sprit-stretched sail -- he got some better shape by installing a thin plastic wedge sticking
> straight forward, on upper part of mast, so "rolling diameter" stayed roughly the same. Such
> plastic blade had no effect on flexibility of the mast side-to-side, so the rig still spilled wind
> in gusts just like an unstayed rig should...
>
>
>
> Hope these ideas are clear... no napkin to draw sketches on, with text-messages!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Wayne Gilham
>
>
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kim
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 6:50 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Reefing Bolger's usual Cat Yawl
>
>
>
>
>
> I have enjoyed the enthusiasm and knowledge in this group, so I have to ask. There is a good chance
> (like so much in a Bolger design) that the answer is a lot more subtle than I appreciate from a
> drawing.
>
> How do you tuck a reef into a Bolger main sail as drawn on Romp, Manatee, the original Black Skimmer
> and others? So many of his designs have a well in the bow, and so few have lifelines it made me
> think that he had a way of reefing from the mast. The trick would be drawing the new clew down to
> the yard, but permanent reef lines reeved through the clew (as in slab reefing) don't make much
> sense: the crux of the rig is tension delivered by the yard, not by outhauls as on a conventional
> boom.
>
> It is such a light and "simple" rig that maybe everyone simply drops the sail on the deck, ties in
> the reef, and re hoists. Even when I am prepare for it, I am sometimes surprised by a "Bolger
> solution."
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4853 - Release Date: 03/05/12
>
bit of a problem to "drop the sail" using Phil's simple, standard lace-on around the mast to attach
the luff: the "snotter" that pulls the sprit aft, connects to the forward side of the mast -- and
will foul some of the lacings when you lower the sail to put in a reef. For that reason more than
any other, I went to the added complications and expense of sail-track and slides, just so the
mainsail could be dropped (for reefing OR for putting it away) without having to
disconnect-reconnect the snotter.
my sail had only a grommet (pressed-in ring) at the clew, similar ring up higher along the leech
became the reefed clew. either ring was captured by a sstl hook bolted to the side of the sprit...
another slight complication and extra expense (as my sprit-boom was a hollow box construction to be
somewhat lighter than a sold stick)... a fork in the end of any solid sprit would suffice -- often
designed to capture a short line tied to the clew with a knot a few inches out, to be captured in
that fork. Same type of short line off the reefed-clew...
Yes it WAS a bit tricky -- even sometimes "hairy" when really blowing -- to unhook the clew
(loosening snotter first, of course) and grab the flailing leech to put hook of sprit into
reefed-clew grommet... By easing the snotter a LOT, the shorter required length of the sprit (aft
of mast) was accomplished. Okay for first reef; second reef found the sprit so far ahead of the
mast, that I later put another hook about halfway along the sprit. Excess sail was gathered by
"reef-points" = thin lines threaded thru small grommets along the new "foot", and always in-place.
If stormy, I wouldn't bother with tieing-in the forward reef-points that I couldn't reach from the
cockpit. Note that my sheet was firmly attached to the end of the sprit, NOT to the sail's clew!
...so I didn't have to re-tie the sheet when going thru this reefing drill.
Oh yes, you also have to set up a second tack-line, to pull down and then fasten the reefed tack --
typical slab-reefing!
My prior boat's designer (Steve Wilce) did some experimentation with reefing by rolling up the main
by rotating the mast... found that the tapered masts gave really poor shape for roller-reefed and
sprit-stretched sail -- he got some better shape by installing a thin plastic wedge sticking
straight forward, on upper part of mast, so "rolling diameter" stayed roughly the same. Such
plastic blade had no effect on flexibility of the mast side-to-side, so the rig still spilled wind
in gusts just like an unstayed rig should...
Hope these ideas are clear... no napkin to draw sketches on, with text-messages!
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kim
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 6:50 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Reefing Bolger's usual Cat Yawl
I have enjoyed the enthusiasm and knowledge in this group, so I have to ask. There is a good chance
(like so much in a Bolger design) that the answer is a lot more subtle than I appreciate from a
drawing.
How do you tuck a reef into a Bolger main sail as drawn on Romp, Manatee, the original Black Skimmer
and others? So many of his designs have a well in the bow, and so few have lifelines it made me
think that he had a way of reefing from the mast. The trick would be drawing the new clew down to
the yard, but permanent reef lines reeved through the clew (as in slab reefing) don't make much
sense: the crux of the rig is tension delivered by the yard, not by outhauls as on a conventional
boom.
It is such a light and "simple" rig that maybe everyone simply drops the sail on the deck, ties in
the reef, and re hoists. Even when I am prepare for it, I am sometimes surprised by a "Bolger
solution."
Thanks!
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4853 - Release Date: 03/05/12
How do you tuck a reef into a Bolger main sail as drawn on Romp, Manatee, the original Black Skimmer and others? So many of his designs have a well in the bow, and so few have lifelines it made me think that he had a way of reefing from the mast. The trick would be drawing the new clew down to the yard, but permanent reef lines reeved through the clew (as in slab reefing) don't make much sense: the crux of the rig is tension delivered by the yard, not by outhauls as on a conventional boom.
It is such a light and "simple" rig that maybe everyone simply drops the sail on the deck, ties in the reef, and re hoists. Even when I am prepare for it, I am sometimes surprised by a "Bolger solution."
Thanks!