Re: [bolger] Re: AS29 self-steering

Thanks for the compliment, but I must admit that I know nothing about
sewing. Maybe I should have mentioned this. I measured and cut the
sails, and then assembled them with double-sided tape that I bought at
Home Depot; it's intended for installing indoor-outdoor carpeting. Then
I took the sails to a local sailmaker, whose sewing machine can easily
punch through the plastic and tape.

They are pretty, aren't they? -- all junk sails, that is, not just
mine. They still make me smile every time I hoist them. They do
require a lot of line for all the sheets and 3-part halyards; but on the
other hand, there are no winches.

101 Small Boat Rigs is a great book. I like lateen sails for their
simplicity, and also for the ability to use a really short mast. Here
in texas, all the powerboats are in slips that are covered by big metal
roofs, to protect them from the blazing Summer sun. We sailors are out
in the open. I'd love to have a boat that, with sails lowered, could
fit under one of those roofs. Maybe next time ...



> Kent. Those are flawless sails you built for yourself! Impressive. Thanks for the picture and the explanation.
>
> I'm a bit sensitive about sail area. I meant ROGUE to be "over canvased" but it is not. With a badly shaped fore and heavy canvas main, light air performance is not what I want it to be. Perhaps I should have first had new sails made, or at least a new fore made before taking the drastic steps I am taking. However, I don't believe that even with well cut sails I would have the light air performance I want. And I like the way the main works in 20+ knot winds, so I am not eager to increase its foot and head to increase sail area. Besides, boats are for messing around with and I have a copy of Bolger's 101 Small Boat Rigs. Furthermore, ROGUE is and may well remain engineless, so light air performance is important. Assuming my repair/building/sailing happens as planned over the next two months, I'll let folks here know if doubling ROGUE's working sail area by setting a lateen yard and sail from the foremast is a good idea or not. I don't think ROGUE will stand up to thi
> s towering sail in even 8 knots of wind. But unlike a spinnaker I expect it will sail to windward quite nicely. Taking it down will be a huge reef and will hurt performance, but leaving it up too long will make it difficult and perhaps dangerous to deal with. I plan to brail the sail so I can kill the sail before bringing the yard and sail down to the deck. Not a racing move for a single hander, though it might not be any worse than handing a balloon spinnaker given the same size crew.
>
> Aren't you glad you went for the elegance and easy handling of a junk rig?
>
> Seeing a clear picture of the flawless job you made of your sails I expect you could sew up a beautiful set of cambered sails should you choose to when it comes time to replace your current sails.
>
> Eric
Kent. Those are flawless sails you built for yourself! Impressive. Thanks for the picture and the explanation.

I'm a bit sensitive about sail area. I meant ROGUE to be "over canvased" but it is not. With a badly shaped fore and heavy canvas main, light air performance is not what I want it to be. Perhaps I should have first had new sails made, or at least a new fore made before taking the drastic steps I am taking. However, I don't believe that even with well cut sails I would have the light air performance I want. And I like the way the main works in 20+ knot winds, so I am not eager to increase its foot and head to increase sail area. Besides, boats are for messing around with and I have a copy of Bolger's 101 Small Boat Rigs. Furthermore, ROGUE is and may well remain engineless, so light air performance is important. Assuming my repair/building/sailing happens as planned over the next two months, I'll let folks here know if doubling ROGUE's working sail area by setting a lateen yard and sail from the foremast is a good idea or not. I don't think ROGUE will stand up to this towering sail in even 8 knots of wind. But unlike a spinnaker I expect it will sail to windward quite nicely. Taking it down will be a huge reef and will hurt performance, but leaving it up too long will make it difficult and perhaps dangerous to deal with. I plan to brail the sail so I can kill the sail before bringing the yard and sail down to the deck. Not a racing move for a single hander, though it might not be any worse than handing a balloon spinnaker given the same size crew.

Aren't you glad you went for the elegance and easy handling of a junk rig?

Seeing a clear picture of the flawless job you made of your sails I expect you could sew up a beautiful set of cambered sails should you choose to when it comes time to replace your current sails.

Eric



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kent <kent@...> wrote:
>
> Those are good points, and no offense taken ... but I did do some
> homework :^) . In that picture, both sails are angled away from the
> camera, so they don't look as large as they really are. Here's another
> picture, closer to a true profile:
>
>http://themagicm.com/kent/at-harbor-summer-2011.jpg
>
> The Beachcomber 25 was available from the factory with a cat ketch rig,
> as well as a sloop. The standard cat ketch was 275 sq. ft., and there
> were a couple of extra sails available for light air. My junk rig sets
> about 320 sq. ft., even though both masts are quite a bit shorter than
> the original (another advantage of the rig). She gets me home even in
> very light winds. I start reefing when I see whitecaps (10-15 kts.),
> but I'm kind of a wimp about that. I go sailing to reduce my stress
> level, not to add to it :^) .
>
> I'm a member of the junkrig Yahoo group. Many of those folks are way
> more expert than me on design, construction, and actual sailing
> experience. I did read Hasler's book, "Practical Junk Rig," which is
> rich in detail, and was a huge help to me.
>
> Cambered sails do give much better upwind performance, and I'll probably
> try that on the next set of sails. Mine are made of heavy-duty,
> UV-resistant plastic sheeting fromhttp://www.northerngreenhouse.com/.
> So the flat sails were very easy to make from single sheets. Cambered
> sails will require more complex construction. For reaching or downwind
> sailing, I'm told that flat-cut sails perform quite well.
>
> Have Fun! -- Kent
>
>
> > Nice rig, but you strike me as a bit under canvased. One of the advantages of a junk rig is the ease of reefing under any conditions. You don't have to reef until you have to. Check out these posts
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/files/ArneKverneland's files/3, Letters etc./
> > and you may decide to rebuild your rig as a cambered junk rig of a slightly larger size. I expect you will get significantly better performance. I have to replace the foresail on my jibless balanced lug schooner and I may replace it with a cambered junk rig just to experiment with the rig. The sail is small enough to easily handle in its current balanced lug configuration. It just needs to be shaped properly.
> >
> > Now you can tell me my armchair observations are totally inaccurate and that you have a much bigger rig than the original sloop with genoa, and have more than enough sail area for light weather.
> >
> > Eric
> >
>
>
> --
> Kent Multer |\ /|
> Magic Metal Productionshttp://TheMagicM.com/| \/ |
> KOBUSHI world percussionhttp://kobushi.com/| |
>
Those are good points, and no offense taken ... but I did do some
homework :^) . In that picture, both sails are angled away from the
camera, so they don't look as large as they really are. Here's another
picture, closer to a true profile:

http://themagicm.com/kent/at-harbor-summer-2011.jpg

The Beachcomber 25 was available from the factory with a cat ketch rig,
as well as a sloop. The standard cat ketch was 275 sq. ft., and there
were a couple of extra sails available for light air. My junk rig sets
about 320 sq. ft., even though both masts are quite a bit shorter than
the original (another advantage of the rig). She gets me home even in
very light winds. I start reefing when I see whitecaps (10-15 kts.),
but I'm kind of a wimp about that. I go sailing to reduce my stress
level, not to add to it :^) .

I'm a member of the junkrig Yahoo group. Many of those folks are way
more expert than me on design, construction, and actual sailing
experience. I did read Hasler's book, "Practical Junk Rig," which is
rich in detail, and was a huge help to me.

Cambered sails do give much better upwind performance, and I'll probably
try that on the next set of sails. Mine are made of heavy-duty,
UV-resistant plastic sheeting fromhttp://www.northerngreenhouse.com/.
So the flat sails were very easy to make from single sheets. Cambered
sails will require more complex construction. For reaching or downwind
sailing, I'm told that flat-cut sails perform quite well.

Have Fun! -- Kent


> Nice rig, but you strike me as a bit under canvased. One of the advantages of a junk rig is the ease of reefing under any conditions. You don't have to reef until you have to. Check out these posts
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/files/ArneKverneland's files/3, Letters etc./
> and you may decide to rebuild your rig as a cambered junk rig of a slightly larger size. I expect you will get significantly better performance. I have to replace the foresail on my jibless balanced lug schooner and I may replace it with a cambered junk rig just to experiment with the rig. The sail is small enough to easily handle in its current balanced lug configuration. It just needs to be shaped properly.
>
> Now you can tell me my armchair observations are totally inaccurate and that you have a much bigger rig than the original sloop with genoa, and have more than enough sail area for light weather.
>
> Eric
>


--
Kent Multer |\ /|
Magic Metal Productionshttp://TheMagicM.com/| \/ |
KOBUSHI world percussionhttp://kobushi.com/| |
Nice rig, but you strike me as a bit under canvased. One of the advantages of a junk rig is the ease of reefing under any conditions. You don't have to reef until you have to. Check out these posts
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/files/ArneKverneland's files/3, Letters etc./
and you may decide to rebuild your rig as a cambered junk rig of a slightly larger size. I expect you will get significantly better performance. I have to replace the foresail on my jibless balanced lug schooner and I may replace it with a cambered junk rig just to experiment with the rig. The sail is small enough to easily handle in its current balanced lug configuration. It just needs to be shaped properly.

Now you can tell me my armchair observations are totally inaccurate and that you have a much bigger rig than the original sloop with genoa, and have more than enough sail area for light weather.

Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Kent <kent@...> wrote:
>
> Hi folks --
>
> I don't have a Bolger boat, but I do sail a Beachcomber 25 cat ketch
> with a homemade rig (http://themagicm.com/kent/reaching-may2010.jpg);
> and it self-steers surprisingly well with NO extra gear, not even a
> sheet-to-tiller hookup. My previous boat was a Sea Pearl 21, which
> could do the same thing to some extent.
>
> I discovered this by accident. I would typically pick a reaching or
> upwind course, and then tweak the sheets until the tiller wasn't pulling
> in either direction. Eventually, I realized that after that, the boat
> would take care of herself. She doesn't stay exactly on course; she
> tends to zig-zag slightly, but she always self-corrects. If I move from
> the cockpit to the cabin, that throws the balance off a bit; but I can
> compensate by reaching up and tightening the main sheet, or simply
> moving to the other side of the cabin.
>
> Anyone else had this experience? I think it must be a natural
> characerstic of cat ketches.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>
> >> Also, the mizzen sheet can be linked to the tiller to function as a self steering gear under way. As couple of blocks to run the sheet to the tiller and a batch of shock cord to act as a dampener on the opposite side worked great for us. We were able to steer a steady course-to-wind for hours at a time without touching anything. Under the right conditions, the boat will balance quite well even without rigging the sheet-to-tiller.Â
> >>
> >> Off the wind, dowse the mizzen and sail with main only. The mizzen mostly push the stern over to help sail to weather.
> >>
> >>
> >> One thing you have to keep in mind with this boat is to warn other vessels NOT to follow you into an anchorage. Most folks don't realize just how shallow this boat is. You can anchor in water that's knee deep! We have even pulled the board up and sailed past people wading in the water. The look on their faces was priceless.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: "Susanne@"<philbolger@>
> >> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:23 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [bolger] AS29 self-steering
> >>
> >>
> >> Â
> >> I might be tempted to lower the fully
> >> counter-weighted main-mast right after checking my ground-tackle before
> >> going below for the night. With that stick out of the breeze, the
> >> mizzen should keep her steady.Â
> >> Susanne Altenburger,
> >> PB&F
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: sandidgeneal
> >>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:03 AM
> >>> Subject: [bolger] AS29
> >> self-steering
> >>>
> >>> Â
> >>> A thought...
> >>>
> >>> The cat ketch rig is a little busy at the stern and
> >> most people seem to be anchoring stern-to.
> >>>
> >>> So...
> >>>
> >>> A self-
> >> steering vane mounted off the bow with plastic-coated wire (as used in
> >> steering systems) led aft thru cheek blocks to the
> >> tiller/rudder.
> >>>
> >>> Dumb...?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kent Multer |\ /|
> Magic Metal Productionshttp://TheMagicM.com/| \/ |
> KOBUSHI world percussionhttp://kobushi.com/| |
>
Hi folks --

I don't have a Bolger boat, but I do sail a Beachcomber 25 cat ketch
with a homemade rig (http://themagicm.com/kent/reaching-may2010.jpg);
and it self-steers surprisingly well with NO extra gear, not even a
sheet-to-tiller hookup. My previous boat was a Sea Pearl 21, which
could do the same thing to some extent.

I discovered this by accident. I would typically pick a reaching or
upwind course, and then tweak the sheets until the tiller wasn't pulling
in either direction. Eventually, I realized that after that, the boat
would take care of herself. She doesn't stay exactly on course; she
tends to zig-zag slightly, but she always self-corrects. If I move from
the cockpit to the cabin, that throws the balance off a bit; but I can
compensate by reaching up and tightening the main sheet, or simply
moving to the other side of the cabin.

Anyone else had this experience? I think it must be a natural
characerstic of cat ketches.





>>
>> Also, the mizzen sheet can be linked to the tiller to function as a self steering gear under way. As couple of blocks to run the sheet to the tiller and a batch of shock cord to act as a dampener on the opposite side worked great for us. We were able to steer a steady course-to-wind for hours at a time without touching anything. Under the right conditions, the boat will balance quite well even without rigging the sheet-to-tiller.Â
>>
>> Off the wind, dowse the mizzen and sail with main only. The mizzen mostly push the stern over to help sail to weather.
>>
>>
>> One thing you have to keep in mind with this boat is to warn other vessels NOT to follow you into an anchorage. Most folks don't realize just how shallow this boat is. You can anchor in water that's knee deep! We have even pulled the board up and sailed past people wading in the water. The look on their faces was priceless.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "Susanne@..."<philbolger@...>
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] AS29 self-steering
>>
>>
>> Â
>> I might be tempted to lower the fully
>> counter-weighted main-mast right after checking my ground-tackle before
>> going below for the night. With that stick out of the breeze, the
>> mizzen should keep her steady.Â
>> Susanne Altenburger,
>> PB&F
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: sandidgeneal
>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:03 AM
>>> Subject: [bolger] AS29
>> self-steering
>>>
>>> Â
>>> A thought...
>>>
>>> The cat ketch rig is a little busy at the stern and
>> most people seem to be anchoring stern-to.
>>>
>>> So...
>>>
>>> A self-
>> steering vane mounted off the bow with plastic-coated wire (as used in
>> steering systems) led aft thru cheek blocks to the
>> tiller/rudder.
>>>
>>> Dumb...?
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--
Kent Multer |\ /|
Magic Metal Productionshttp://TheMagicM.com/| \/ |
KOBUSHI world percussionhttp://kobushi.com/| |
Mike:

Can you give more specifics re: your self steering on Walküre? How did you rig it? What points of sail did it self steer?

Thanks,

Neal
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wagner <willers32@...> wrote:
>
> We have had very few problems with anchoring. Even with the mast left upright, the boat seldom charged the anchor even in high winds. We've survived 60 knot winds at anchor. We never used the mizzen as a riding sail but it can work. The only time windage became an issue was approaching a mooring in high wind conditions. Holding her steady while the mate picks up the pennant got tricky at times and once in a while required multiple attempts before snagging the pennant. One big advantage of the boat is the deep bow well and open bow transom. The mate can step down into the well and have a much shorter reach to grab the pennant or to set or retrieve the anchor.
>
>
> Also, the mizzen sheet can be linked to the tiller to function as a self steering gear under way. As couple of blocks to run the sheet to the tiller and a batch of shock cord to act as a dampener on the opposite side worked great for us. We were able to steer a steady course-to-wind for hours at a time without touching anything. Under the right conditions, the boat will balance quite well even without rigging the sheet-to-tiller.Â
>
> Off the wind, dowse the mizzen and sail with main only. The mizzen mostly push the stern over to help sail to weather.
>
>
> One thing you have to keep in mind with this boat is to warn other vessels NOT to follow you into an anchorage. Most folks don't realize just how shallow this boat is. You can anchor in water that's knee deep! We have even pulled the board up and sailed past people wading in the water. The look on their faces was priceless.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] AS29 self-steering
>
>
> Â
> I might be tempted to lower the fully
> counter-weighted main-mast right after checking my ground-tackle before
> going below for the night.  With that stick out of the breeze, the
> mizzen should keep her steady.Â
> Susanne Altenburger,
> PB&F
> ----- Original Message -----
> >From: sandidgeneal
> >To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:03 AM
> >Subject: [bolger] AS29
> self-steering
> >
> >Â
> >A thought...
> >
> >The cat ketch rig is a little busy at the stern and
> most people seem to be anchoring stern-to.
> >
> >So...
> >
> >A self-
> steering vane mounted off the bow with plastic-coated wire (as used in
> steering systems) led aft thru cheek blocks to the
> tiller/rudder.
> >
> >Dumb...?
> >
> >
>
We have had very few problems with anchoring. Even with the mast left upright, the boat seldom charged the anchor even in high winds. We've survived 60 knot winds at anchor. We never used the mizzen as a riding sail but it can work. The only time windage became an issue was approaching a mooring in high wind conditions. Holding her steady while the mate picks up the pennant got tricky at times and once in a while required multiple attempts before snagging the pennant. One big advantage of the boat is the deep bow well and open bow transom. The mate can step down into the well and have a much shorter reach to grab the pennant or to set or retrieve the anchor.

Also, the mizzen sheet can be linked to the tiller to function as a self steering gear under way. As couple of blocks to run the sheet to the tiller and a batch of shock cord to act as a dampener on the opposite side worked great for us. We were able to steer a steady course-to-wind for hours at a time without touching anything. Under the right conditions, the boat will balance quite well even without rigging the sheet-to-tiller. 

Off the wind, dowse the mizzen and sail with main only. The mizzen mostly push the stern over to help sail to weather.

One thing you have to keep in mind with this boat is to warn other vessels NOT to follow you into an anchorage. Most folks don't realize just how shallow this boat is. You can anchor in water that's knee deep! We have even pulled the board up and sailed past people wading in the water. The look on their faces was priceless.


From:"Susanne@..." <philbolger@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:23 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] AS29 self-steering

 
I might be tempted to lower the fully counter-weighted main-mast right after checking my ground-tackle before going below for the night.  With that stick out of the breeze, the mizzen should keep her steady. 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:03 AM
Subject:[bolger] AS29 self-steering

 
A thought...

The cat ketch rig is a little busy at the stern and most people seem to be anchoring stern-to.

So...

A self- steering vane mounted off the bow with plastic-coated wire (as used in steering systems) led aft thru cheek blocks to the tiller/rudder.

Dumb...?



I might be tempted to lower the fully counter-weighted main-mast right after checking my ground-tackle before going below for the night.  With that stick out of the breeze, the mizzen should keep her steady. 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:03 AM
Subject:[bolger] AS29 self-steering

 

A thought...

The cat ketch rig is a little busy at the stern and most people seem to be anchoring stern-to.

So...

A self- steering vane mounted off the bow with plastic-coated wire (as used in steering systems) led aft thru cheek blocks to the tiller/rudder.

Dumb...?

A thought...

The cat ketch rig is a little busy at the stern and most people seem to be anchoring stern-to.

So...

A self- steering vane mounted off the bow with plastic-coated wire (as used in steering systems) led aft thru cheek blocks to the tiller/rudder.

Dumb...?