Re: Lightweight marine ply

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "sandidgeneal" <nsandidge@...> wrote:
>
> I suspect what you are saying is correct. Epoxy coating is not the be-all-end-all. However, monkey see monkey do, so I will sheathe and coat my AS29. But I will use a local epoxy that costs 40% of WEST. Is this false economy? I don't know. What does everyone else think?
>
> Neal

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
> >
> > Whatever reference I had in mind I cannot find. I thought it was
> > from The Gougeon Brothers On Boat Construction, but do not have
> > time to read the whole thing. I've done research on line and what
> > I have found seems to indicate that Epoxy has much better
> > resistance to moisture penetration than other options.
>
> "ENCAPSULATION
>
> You will note that I have not mentioned epoxy encapsulation; i.e., coating both sides of everything with several coats of epoxy resin. It has no advantages and is a waste of money and time that adds useless weight. It won't turn lauan underlayment into marine plywood, though it will make it cost nearly as much. It does not keep the water out of the wood boat that lives in the water and a dry sailed boat doesn't need it."http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/epoxy.html
>
> "A modern myth is that epoxy resin penetrates sound wood and that epoxy coating prevents water from being absorbed by wood." " Boats are immersed in water, so I measured water absorption while immersed of ¾" pine coated with three heavy coats of epoxy resin. These coatings were about twice as thick as used at FPL. In fact, their total weight was a little over 30% of the weight of the uncoated wood. Immersed in water they absorbed 20% by weight of water in 200 days. That is the water content required to sustain rot organisms. There are two other requirements for rot to occur-presence of the organisms and oxygen to sustain them. The rot spores are astronomically larger than water molecules, so if the wood did not have them to begin with, epoxy coating would likely keep them out. As to oxygen, the oxygen molecules are far larger than water molecules and do not have the unique properties of water molecules that make them capable of penetrating any organic material-natural or synthetic. I learned this the hard way while supervising spending a couple of million dollars around 1960 on a DuPont research project to make building products and pipes of resins reinforced with kraft paper. Dry kraft paper is a pretty strong, stiff material; wet, it is like the proverbial dishrag. The chemists doing the experiments tried every polymerizable mix they could conceive, including epoxy resins, to make products that wouldn't lose their stiffness in long-term contact with water. The research director held his head in his hands when I reported that we had had zero success. I also coated exterior fir plywood (three equal thickness plies) and underlayment lauan plywood (thin skins and thick core) with about 30% of their weights of epoxy resin. The fir plywood took about 1½ years of soaking to reach 20% water absorptiion, but the lauan hadn't reached that point in two years and looked as if it never might. This resuly hints that the glue lines between skins and cores of plywood are quite effective barriers to water absorption. David W. Carnell 11 March 2004"http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/articles.html
>

>
> Whatever reference I had in mind I cannot find. I thought it was
> from The Gougeon Brothers On Boat Construction, but do not have
> time to read the whole thing. I've done research on line and what
> I have found seems to indicate that Epoxy has much better
> resistance to moisture penetration than other options.

You can also get 2-stroke motor oil with a fuel stabilizer already added to it. This is what I use, but not suggesting it is superior. Just what my local hardware store sells. I does seem to produce less (visible) smoke as well if used with the recommended 89 octane gasoline.

http://www.echo.ca/products_detailed.aspx?CategoryID=16&ProductID=88

Ever wonder why we pay road tax on boat and lawnmower gas?

Nels

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> Just this year I started using Sta-Bil gas stabilizer in the fuel for my
> small engines. It's cheap, even for the "marine" grade, considering how
> little gas I use, even including the lawnmower and weedeater. Probably
> cheaper than not using it, because I was discarding small amounts of old
> gas I no longer had faith in.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 07:51:44 -0700, Eric wrote:

> My brother inlaws 2011 Tohatsu 8hp gave him all kinds of problems. Back
> to dealer over and over. Turned out the problem was 10% Ethanol. At
> least one of the local marinas sells gas that does not have Ethanol and
> that is what he uses now. If an engine is designed to run on lead it
> will not work well on lead free gas, and vice-versa unless specifically
> designed to. Given that I will be sailing in different regions and
> countries this would be a problem. Lead, lead free, ethanol if I use a
> gas engine it would have to work properly with any combination.
> ...

--
John (jkohnen@...)
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the
same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his
wife is beautiful and his children smart. (H. L. Mencken)

 

If you can't get boat gas (non-ethanol) and you only burn a few gallons you can use avgas.  Just run out to the FBO at your local airport and buy some 100 octane Low Lead.  Works great in an old outboard.

John Boy

 

You can trust me, I have a degree in science...

---

From:Eric <eric14850@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, April 30, 2012 9:51 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Four Cycle Gasoline? (was: Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now))

 

My brother inlaws 2011 Tohatsu 8hp gave him all kinds of problems. Back to dealer over and over. Turned out the problem was 10% Ethanol. At least one of the local marinas sells gas that does not have Ethanol and that is what he uses now. If an engine is designed to run on lead it will not work well on lead free gas, and vice-versa unless specifically designed to. Given that I will be sailing in different regions and countries this would be a problem. Lead, lead free, ethanol if I use a gas engine it would have to work properly with any combination. I have no confidence that this would be the case, but have not done any research.

Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> Touchy about gas?? Where'd you hear that? What's special "four cycle
> gasoline?" I've never heard of the stuff, even though I've been driving
> cars and riding motorcycles with 4-stroke engines for many decades...
>
> I run my little Honda and the Tohatsu 4-strokes I've owned (including the
> one I've got now with "Mercury" decals on it) on regular gas from the gas
> station. Never had a problem, even though they've forced gasohol on us,
> except the Tohatsu 3.5 would clog it's idle jet if I forgot to run the gas
> out of the carb before letting it sit over the winter. That's not a
> 4-stroke problem. I've had far more trouble over the years with gummed up
> carbs on 2-stroke engines of all sorts than I've ever had with 4-strokes.
> <shrug> With any gasoline boat engine you want to run the gas out of the
> carb before storing for a long time.
>
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 23:10:51 -0700, Eric wrote:
>
> > ...
> > The initial investment is steep compared with a 4 stroke outboard. The
> > outboard needs gas (unfortunately can be touchy about type of gas)...
> > $200 per year at $5 per gallon for special four cycle gasoline 40
> > gallons, 10 gallons per year. Which I would suppose would be about
> > equivalent to gas used when using the outboard about like you use your
> > electric propulsion.
> > ...
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
> always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of
> doubts. (Bertrand Russell)
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, james fry <hunter02_2002@...> wrote:
>
> Eric, I don't know why you'd say epoxy doesn't seal out moisture. I used to live on the Jersey shore and about 25-27 years ago I used W.E.S.T. epoxy system to put together three small boats. When I was back up there 18 months ago, I tried looking them up. Two were still afloat and being used. I couldn't find the other people or what happened to that skiff. This stuff saturates the wood and the finish is like a fibre-glass resin. The only thing done to the boats still in use was to give them a W.E.S.T. coat every 6-8 years.
> If epoxy didn't seal out moisture, as opposed to just water, it would be totaly useless as there are small voids and pockets of air even in the most solid wood.
> Jim
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eric <eric14850@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 1:35 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Lightweight marine ply
>
>
> Â
> A question. Regarding voids in marine and other plywood used in a boat's hull and decks, is there a problem caused by water vapor condensing in the voids in the cold climate of New England and cold West coast waters? Epoxy will not seal out moisture, only water. A high humidity interior would drive moisture toward the cold. It seems moisture would penetrate into the plywood and precipitate out if the dew point happened to be where the void was. Does anyone have an experience or real information about this possibility?
>
> Eric
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > On the SACPAS-3 project I used only domestically farm-grown Douglas Fir ply, well-understood, no pretty grain, fairly non-toxic, with a fully-known environmental-impact trail, quite affordable at $91.- for 1", well under $50 for 1/2" etc. from a local dealer. The 1/4 stuff kept 'smiling' a us with 'wild grins', but even on the flat roof its smirk soon turned into a 'stiff upper lip', level and straight. Despite 'Marine-Grade' stamp there are core-voids here and there, but at the load of epoxy and glass on this job, I'd expect little drama long-term, particularly with bottom and side double-skinned. On a government job staying all domestic, affordable and non-experimental is a safe bet. The project itself had enough hair-raising episodes anyway...
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: c.ruzer
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:42 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Lightweight marine ply
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I wonder what part of Borneo or West Papua is being denuded in the supply of this stuff. I rather hope none, save the whale and all, but as it seems to be China sourced I won't be holding my breath that the "light weight" is due to some SE Asian plantaion grown Paulonia spp or somesuch.http://www.goldcorelight.com/specifications.htm- that BS1088 standard is beyond meaningless in the Australian context. Is the weight all that less than Oz plantation grown hoop marine plywood anyway (38% seems a stretch)? Such Oz marine plywood conforms to the superior and meaningfull AS/NZS2272, and is as likely manufactured to F14, and may carry a 40 year bond warranty. I'd guess that the Goldcore Light interior veneers should never be exposed to water, never, and that may be a big ask in a small boat. It's not cheap. Lightness up high is something, but I don't understand how the strength can be had by increasing thickness by one millimetre. It seems that a jump to
> the next standard size, so from 6mm to 9mm etc, is mandated. That, or increased supporting frame and stiffening members, and either would seem to cancel the Goldcore alleged 38% weight advantage - and cost more.
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <a.c.l.yen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > My Chebacco 25 hull is finally up the right way. I had a party for friends, relatives and the wooden boat club, gave everyone a rope, or piece of wood and we had it off it's building frame right way up on its trailer in 40 minutes. I'll post some photos when I get time.
> > >
> > > Now I have to get serious about decks, cockpits, carlins, beams, frames etc. In shopping for suitable plywood I have come across "lightweight marine ply" (see www.goldcorelight.com). I have obtained a sample and am impressed with the quality (no voids, nice face veneers)and the lightness of the product. It feels not much heavier than balsa wood yet gives the impression of being plenty strong enough.
> > >
> > > The strength grade is F7 - which means a designed working stress of 7MPa. I did a bit of research that suggests that this is not as strong as "standard" ply but that adding a mm to the thickness will compensate for the lower strength:
> > >
> > >http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tbia/view_article.asp?articleID=133
> > >
> > > It isn't cheap at A$71 for 6mm, A$94 for 9mm and A$112 for 12mm but these prices are comparable with good Gaboon marine ply.
> > >
> > > Has anyone used it or have opinions about lightweight ply for "above waterline". I figure that lighter sheets are easier to handle and will reduce the weight of the boat by some 50kg or more.
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > >http://sites.google.com/site/warrandytewoodenboat
> > >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> Touchy about gas?? Where'd you hear that? What's special "four cycle
> gasoline?" I've never heard of the stuff, even though I've been driving
> cars and riding motorcycles with 4-stroke engines for many decades...
>
> I run my little Honda and the Tohatsu 4-strokes I've owned (including the
> one I've got now with "Mercury" decals on it) on regular gas from the gas
> station. Never had a problem, even though they've forced gasohol on us,
> except the Tohatsu 3.5 would clog it's idle jet if I forgot to run the gas
> out of the carb before letting it sit over the winter. That's not a
> 4-stroke problem. I've had far more trouble over the years with gummed up
> carbs on 2-stroke engines of all sorts than I've ever had with 4-strokes.
> <shrug> With any gasoline boat engine you want to run the gas out of the
> carb before storing for a long time.
>
> On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 23:10:51 -0700, Eric wrote:
>
> > ...
> > The initial investment is steep compared with a 4 stroke outboard. The
> > outboard needs gas (unfortunately can be touchy about type of gas)...
> > $200 per year at $5 per gallon for special four cycle gasoline 40
> > gallons, 10 gallons per year. Which I would suppose would be about
> > equivalent to gas used when using the outboard about like you use your
> > electric propulsion.
> > ...
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
> always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of
> doubts. (Bertrand Russell)
>

On Sat, 28 Apr 2012 23:10:51 -0700, Eric wrote:

> ...
> The initial investment is steep compared with a 4 stroke outboard. The
> outboard needs gas (unfortunately can be touchy about type of gas)...
> $200 per year at $5 per gallon for special four cycle gasoline 40
> gallons, 10 gallons per year. Which I would suppose would be about
> equivalent to gas used when using the outboard about like you use your
> electric propulsion.
> ...

--
John (jkohnen@...)
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of
doubts. (Bertrand Russell)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jdmeddock" <jmeddock@...> wrote:
>
>
> > The Glass is Half Full or Half Empty - ALL in how someone CHOOSES to view it
>
>
> I say the glass is too large.
>
> Justin
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks" <loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:
>
> As it happens we have an Electric Yacht system on our boat "So It Goes" and it has worked out very well. We have not used diesel/gasoline to power the boat in almost eight years in full time cruising mode... I think that says that electric propulsion is actually more than ready for prime time.
>
> Something that most folks don't get about electric propulsion is the cost of running and maintaining it is near zero. Over the last four years we have spent less than $100... Compare that to the cost of keeping a Yamaha 9.9HP four stroke running and topped up with fuel and oil for four years...
>
> All the best
>
> Bob
>
>http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
>http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
>http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
>
> Good morning
> Electric Hybrid System - www.electricseas.org www.electricyacht.com
> The EY 360ibl System will provide 18kW of power
> "Hopefully it will be many years before you give feedback about system reliability and longevity."
> Can you add more to what is meant by your comment above?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric <eric14850@...>
> To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, Apr 28, 2012 5:53 am
> Subject: [bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)
>
>
>
>
>
> Please post your experiences with this electric hybred system you have created, including cost of installation, electric HP and how it performs, battery bank amperage, hours of performance and what rate of draw you use while doing the work you do. Hopefully it will be many years before you give feedback about system reliability and longevity.
>
> Eric
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@ wrote:
> >
> > Good morning
> >
> >
> > We are installing an Electric Yacht System 360ib into a 1948 38' Novi Lobster Lobster Boat out of Quincy MA.
> > This vessel has a WWII Detroit Diesel Landing Craft Propulsion System that costs $100 day to fuel and bellows
> > pollutants like crazy while hauling traps at idle.
> >
> >
> > She will go from 6-8 hrs diesel idle per day, to 6-8 hrs electric and 45 min diesel out,45 min In.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: philbolger <philbolger@>
> > To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Fri, Apr 27, 2012 8:50 am
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Serious stuff indeed.
> >
> > Still, climate-change deniers abound. Good thing that serious people are waking up - albeit possibly too late ?!
> >
> > As you know, we've pushed hard and I continue to raise the issue of sustainable fishing-fleets for starters, but resistance to burning less fuel and thus money is astonishingly high and stubborn, typically wrapped in some sort of tortured internally-incoherent justification, often fading out with nebulous references to 'evil forces' beyond the horizon. Childish, ignorant, clearly dangerous all around in its consequences if allowed to govern policy.
> >
> > I wished WOODENBOAT would see and leverage its potentially quite potent political role beyond a lot of varnish and 'period-pieces'. There's always hope...
> >
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: c.ruzer
> >
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:38 AM
> >
> > Subject: [bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, james fry <hunter02_2002@> wrote:
> > > a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine
> > > Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the
> > > trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.
> >
> > It's by far the amount of truck CO2 emitted that ought be compared, not HCs (trucks shouldn't be emitting methane or much other nasty CO2 equivalent in any quantity - carcinogenic particulates etc being another thing). As for CO2, just how much CO2 did those trucks absorb from the air every week? Any?
> >
> > A study done a while back?
> >
> > Well then, SEEN LAST NIGHT - coincidental to this topic, on a televised science programme segment concerning climate related tree death numbers now massively increasing globally. The greenhouse planet could now be on the edge of "wholesale mortality of the world's forests". Those forests have much to do with producing and regulating climate, of course... So, one more example of accelerated nasty climate change via runaway positive feedback in the greenhouse and resulting in a nastier climate and possibly a timberless world... (side note: this is about a spreading drying and dying, but, wetlanders, don't smile too soon, you may also have seen sometime that overwatered plants often show similar signs of stress to those deprived of water... gaseous exchange, water psi, physiology, pathogens, parasites, pests: a balancing act.)
> >
> > CATALYST
> > Thursday, 26 April 2012 [snipped...]
> > video and transcript here:http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3488105.htm
> >
> > TREE DEATHS
> >
> > "NARRATION
> > The Rocky Mountains of North America - home to some of the most beautiful, pristine forests in the world. But the shades of burnt golden reds aren't the changing tones of Autumn; they're dead and dying trees.
> >
> > Dr Craig Allen
> > We're looking at tree mortality over a scale of tens of millions of hectares in the last decade alone.
> >
> > NARRATION
> > In fact, right across the globe, there are reports of trees dying in mass numbers.
> >
> > Dr Craig Allen
> > We see all around the world in places where there have been droughts, that drought - particularly droughts and heatwaves - trigger mass waves of mortality. No major forest type is immune.
> >
> > NARRATION
> > Across the western US, tree death rate have more than doubled in the past few decades.
> >
> > Dr Craig Allen
> > So what we're seeing in these forest die-off events around the world are trees passing the tipping point of stress - the thresholds of mortality. Unfortunately we don't know very much about these thresholds at this point.
> >
> > Dr Craig Allen
> > There may be insects and fungal pests that emerge at that point in time, but underlying it is the physiological stress on the trees that compromises their defences. You could think of it actually sort of like HIV in humans. HIV doesn't directly kill people, but by compromising our immune systems, it makes us vulnerable to secondary ah, you know, viruses and other things that can kill us. It's similar in trees.
> >
> > NARRATION
> > The effect climate change may have on our forests is a huge concern. But an even greater worry - how will dying trees affect the climate? In 2005, the heart of the world's biggest rainforest suffered a drought so hot and severe it turned the Amazon jungle from a carbon sink to a carbon source. A second once-in-a-century drought happened five years later.
> >
> > Dr Craig Allen
> > What's most alarming is that these die-off events may be just the tip of the iceberg. We know that warming, temperatures exacerbate tree mortality, and the climate predictions are that the world is going to get much warmer soon. Um, so we may be just at the very front edge of what could be wholesale mortality of the world's forests - the forests that we know and care about today."
> >
> > Related article:
> >
> > _What's Killing the Great Forests of the American West?_
> >
> > 15 Mar 2010: Report
> >
> > "Across western North America, huge tracts of forest are dying off at an extraordinary rate, mostly because of outbreaks of insects. Scientists are now seeing such forest die-offs around the world and are linking them to changes in climate." "In 2008, so much of British Columbia's forests had died they also went from being a net carbon sink to carbon source." "Russian researchers also are concerned that warmer, dryer conditions will lead to increased outbreaks of the Siberian moth, which can destroy large swaths of Russia's boreal forest." "Although western North America has been hardest hit by insect infestations, sizeable areas of forest in Australia, Russia, France, and other countries have experienced die-offs, most of which appears to have been caused by drought, high temperatures, or both." "In Africa where I work, suddenly whole hillsides are dropping dead," she said. "It's happening so fast people are in shock. It's a tragedy." "Trees across the world are stressed already from fragmentation, air pollution, and other problems... I don't know how much stress the forests of the world can take," said Allen."http://e360.yale.edu/feature/whats_killing_the_great_forests_of_the_american_west/2252/Yale Environment 360http://e360.yale.edu/
> >
> > _A global overview of drought and heat-induced tree mortality reveals emerging climate change risks for forests_
> >
> > (the paper cited in the above article. 20 co-authors)Forest Ecology and Management, Volume 259, Issue 4, 5 February 2010, Pages 660–684
> >
> > "Although episodic mortality occurs in the absence of climate change, studies compiled here suggest that at least some of the world's forested ecosystems already may be responding to climate change and raise concern that forests may become increasingly vulnerable to higher background tree mortality rates and die-off in response to future warming and drought, even in environments that are not normally considered water-limited... Overall, our review reveals the potential for amplified tree mortality due to drought and heat in forests worldwide."http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037811270900615X
> >http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03781127/259/4
> >http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03781127
> > related articleshttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleListURL&_method=list&_ArticleListID=1972582475&_sort=v&_st=17&view=c&_origin=related_art&_acct=C000228598&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=85d8d9867f2ac47a6e556d619172a78d&searchtype=a
> >
> > THERE'S NO SOLACE FOR TREES FROM THE OCEANS EITHER. SEEN TODAY, JUST IN... are news reports of results from CSIRO in Hobart and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California as published in the journal SCIENCE. Thousands of robotic ocean monitoring diving bouys now accurately confirm wet climates getting wetter and dry climates getting drier - but at much faster rates than predicted...
> >
> >http://theconversation.edu.au/dry-parts-of-the-planet-to-get-drier-wet-parts-wetter-6700http://theconversation.edu.au/
> >
> > "They revealed a repeating pattern of change believed to be the result of climate change, Wijffels said. "And we see it in the north Atlantic, the south Atlantic, the north Pacific, the south Pacific, the Indian; it's repeated in every ocean basin independently," she said."http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gta4Ck8xze5I-sHAzazzvCB-4GBA?docId=CNG.30fcb51b66f59d429f40a78cff17d57e.3e1
> >
> > These facts came as news to me here today on yahoo (aap sourced):
> >
> >http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/-/mp/13533217/new-study-warns-of-tough-aussie-climate/by David Beniuk, AAP, April 27, 2012, 6:19 am [snipped...]
> > "Scientists from the CSIRO in Hobart and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California have used the most accurate study yet of ocean saltiness to show the world's dry areas, like Australia, are getting drier and its wet areas getting wetter.
> >
> > The scientific team says the rate at which the atmosphere moves water from dry spots to wet spots increased by four per cent between 1950-2000 - twice as fast as predicted by current climate models.
> >
> > They conservatively estimate it could triple by the end of the century, leaving dry land masses like Australia struggling to meet their need for fresh water.
> >
> > "We're pretty sure that this is clear evidence it's already happening, that the water cycle has accelerated and the rates at which it's accelerating per degree of warming are probably higher than our current models project," Dr Wijffels says.
> >
> > The study is considered one of the most accurate of its type because data was collected from ocean monitoring equipment, including the Argo fleet of 3,500 robotic floats deployed over the past decade.
> > Scientists have previously struggled to produce estimates of water cycle changes because land-based observations of rainfall and evaporation are sparse."
> >
> >http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/extremes-in-weather-more-likely--scientists-20120427-1xpq8.html
> > "The team's leader, Paul Durack, said the finding was important because reductions in the availability of fresh water posed more of a risk to human societies and natural ecosystems than a rise in temperature alone. "Changes to the global water cycle and the corresponding redistribution of rainfall will affect food availability, stability, access and utilisation," said Dr Durack, a former CSIRO researcher now at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California.
> >
> > Interesting audio file and transcript of recent interview with Dr Susan Wijffels, CSIRO oceanographer, who leads the Argo profiling program in Hobart, Tasmania. Pirates show an interest in Argo...
> >http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/ocean-data-feeds-into-weather-and-climate-forecasting/3963080
> >
> > "Pine Barrens" may sadly take on a different meaning in many places sometime soon...
> >
>

> The Glass is Half Full or Half Empty - ALL in how someone CHOOSES to view it

----- Original Message -----

From: loosemoosefilmworks <mailto:loosemoosefilmworks@...>

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 11:07 AM

Subject: [bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)







Oops... One last thing on the weight issue.

Our electric propulsion system replace an Atomic 4 gas engine which weighed in at 335 so the weight
of fuel and tankage came to pounds and we had a thirty gallon fuel tank came to about 210 pounds so
a total of 540 pounds...

So the weight of our installation including batteries is actually less than the internal combustion
system it replaced.

The devil being in the details!

Bob



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2411/4963 - Release Date: 04/27/12

> So, under sail the same motor plus controller act also as the re-generators to feed charge back into the batteries ?

> And, much has been made of folding and feathering props on (western) pleasure sailing-craft in order to not too noticeably impact performance under sail with a fixed or rotating propeller big enough to get off a leeshore with. Much colorful language has been printed on the experience of sailing with such an able propeller, with the worst accounts quite insistent on the notable loss of speed because of the leeshore-capable prop's drag 'below'. What's your experience ?

----- Original Message -----

From:loosemoosefilmworks

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Saturday, April 28, 2012 11:07 AM

Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)

 

Oops... One last thing on the weight issue.

Our electric propulsion system replace an Atomic 4 gas engine which weighed in at 335 so the weight of fuel and tankage came to pounds and we had a thirty gallon fuel tank came to about 210 pounds so a total of 540 pounds...

So the weight of our installation including batteries is actually less than the internal combustion system it replaced.

The devil being in the details!

Bob

> - The system's first cost and then life-expectancy of batteries.

> - How do the batteries get charged ?

> - What is the range at what speed ?

> - Size of batteries and weight ?

> - And finally, relative impact of salt-water conditions/atmosphere on electrical components ?

> plus whatever I forgot to think of...

----- Original Message -----

From:loosemoosefilmworks

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Saturday, April 28, 2012 8:56 AM

Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)

 

As it happens we have an Electric Yacht system on our boat "So It Goes" and it has worked out very well. We have not used diesel/gasoline to power the boat in almost eight years in full time cruising mode... I think that says that electric propulsion is actually more than ready for prime time.

Something that most folks don't get about electric propulsion is the cost of running and maintaining it is near zero. Over the last four years we have spent less than $100... Compare that to the cost of keeping a Yamaha 9.9HP four stroke running and topped up with fuel and oil for four years...

All the best

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
>
> Good morning
>
>
> We are installing an Electric Yacht System 360ib into a 1948 38' Novi Lobster Lobster Boat out of Quincy MA.
> This vessel has a WWII Detroit Diesel Landing Craft Propulsion System that costs $100 day to fuel and bellows
> pollutants like crazy while hauling traps at idle.
>
>
> She will go from 6-8 hrs diesel idle per day, to 6-8 hrs electric and 45 min diesel out,45 min In.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
> To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Fri, Apr 27, 2012 8:50 am
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Serious stuff indeed.
>
> Still, climate-change deniers abound. Good thing that serious people are waking up - albeit possibly too late ?!
>
> As you know, we've pushed hard and I continue to raise the issue of sustainable fishing-fleets for starters, but resistance to burning less fuel and thus money is astonishingly high and stubborn, typically wrapped in some sort of tortured internally-incoherent justification, often fading out with nebulous references to 'evil forces' beyond the horizon. Childish, ignorant, clearly dangerous all around in its consequences if allowed to govern policy.
>
> I wished WOODENBOAT would see and leverage its potentially quite potent political role beyond a lot of varnish and 'period-pieces'. There's always hope...
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: c.ruzer
>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>
> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:38 AM
>
> Subject: [bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, james fry <hunter02_2002@> wrote:
> > a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine
> > Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the
> > trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.
>
> It's by far the amount of truck CO2 emitted that ought be compared, not HCs (trucks shouldn't be emitting methane or much other nasty CO2 equivalent in any quantity - carcinogenic particulates etc being another thing). As for CO2, just how much CO2 did those trucks absorb from the air every week? Any?
>
> A study done a while back?
>
> Well then, SEEN LAST NIGHT - coincidental to this topic, on a televised science programme segment concerning climate related tree death numbers now massively increasing globally. The greenhouse planet could now be on the edge of "wholesale mortality of the world's forests". Those forests have much to do with producing and regulating climate, of course... So, one more example of accelerated nasty climate change via runaway positive feedback in the greenhouse and resulting in a nastier climate and possibly a timberless world... (side note: this is about a spreading drying and dying, but, wetlanders, don't smile too soon, you may also have seen sometime that overwatered plants often show similar signs of stress to those deprived of water... gaseous exchange, water psi, physiology, pathogens, parasites, pests: a balancing act.)
>
> CATALYST
> Thursday, 26 April 2012 [snipped...]
> video and transcript here:http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3488105.htm
>
> TREE DEATHS
>
> "NARRATION
> The Rocky Mountains of North America - home to some of the most beautiful, pristine forests in the world. But the shades of burnt golden reds aren't the changing tones of Autumn; they're dead and dying trees.
>
> Dr Craig Allen
> We're looking at tree mortality over a scale of tens of millions of hectares in the last decade alone.
>
> NARRATION
> In fact, right across the globe, there are reports of trees dying in mass numbers.
>
> Dr Craig Allen
> We see all around the world in places where there have been droughts, that drought - particularly droughts and heatwaves - trigger mass waves of mortality. No major forest type is immune.
>
> NARRATION
> Across the western US, tree death rate have more than doubled in the past few decades.
>
> Dr Craig Allen
> So what we're seeing in these forest die-off events around the world are trees passing the tipping point of stress - the thresholds of mortality. Unfortunately we don't know very much about these thresholds at this point.
>
> Dr Craig Allen
> There may be insects and fungal pests that emerge at that point in time, but underlying it is the physiological stress on the trees that compromises their defences. You could think of it actually sort of like HIV in humans. HIV doesn't directly kill people, but by compromising our immune systems, it makes us vulnerable to secondary ah, you know, viruses and other things that can kill us. It's similar in trees.
>
> NARRATION
> The effect climate change may have on our forests is a huge concern. But an even greater worry - how will dying trees affect the climate? In 2005, the heart of the world's biggest rainforest suffered a drought so hot and severe it turned the Amazon jungle from a carbon sink to a carbon source. A second once-in-a-century drought happened five years later.
>
> Dr Craig Allen
> What's most alarming is that these die-off events may be just the tip of the iceberg. We know that warming, temperatures exacerbate tree mortality, and the climate predictions are that the world is going to get much warmer soon. Um, so we may be just at the very front edge of what could be wholesale mortality of the world's forests - the forests that we know and care about today."
>
> Related article:
>
> _What's Killing the Great Forests of the American West?_
>
> 15 Mar 2010: Report
>
> "Across western North America, huge tracts of forest are dying off at an extraordinary rate, mostly because of outbreaks of insects. Scientists are now seeing such forest die-offs around the world and are linking them to changes in climate." "In 2008, so much of British Columbia's forests had died they also went from being a net carbon sink to carbon source." "Russian researchers also are concerned that warmer, dryer conditions will lead to increased outbreaks of the Siberian moth, which can destroy large swaths of Russia's boreal forest." "Although western North America has been hardest hit by insect infestations, sizeable areas of forest in Australia, Russia, France, and other countries have experienced die-offs, most of which appears to have been caused by drought, high temperatures, or both." "In Africa where I work, suddenly whole hillsides are dropping dead," she said. "It's happening so fast people are in shock. It's a tragedy." "Trees across the world are stressed already from fragmentation, air pollution, and other problems... I don't know how much stress the forests of the world can take," said Allen."http://e360.yale.edu/feature/whats_killing_the_great_forests_of_the_american_west/2252/Yale Environment 360http://e360.yale.edu/
>
> _A global overview of drought and heat-induced tree mortality reveals emerging climate change risks for forests_
>
> (the paper cited in the above article. 20 co-authors)Forest Ecology and Management, Volume 259, Issue 4, 5 February 2010, Pages 660–684
>
> "Although episodic mortality occurs in the absence of climate change, studies compiled here suggest that at least some of the world's forested ecosystems already may be responding to climate change and raise concern that forests may become increasingly vulnerable to higher background tree mortality rates and die-off in response to future warming and drought, even in environments that are not normally considered water-limited... Overall, our review reveals the potential for amplified tree mortality due to drought and heat in forests worldwide."http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037811270900615X
>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03781127/259/4
>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03781127
> related articleshttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleListURL&_method=list&_ArticleListID=1972582475&_sort=v&_st=17&view=c&_origin=related_art&_acct=C000228598&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=85d8d9867f2ac47a6e556d619172a78d&searchtype=a
>
> THERE'S NO SOLACE FOR TREES FROM THE OCEANS EITHER. SEEN TODAY, JUST IN... are news reports of results from CSIRO in Hobart and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California as published in the journal SCIENCE. Thousands of robotic ocean monitoring diving bouys now accurately confirm wet climates getting wetter and dry climates getting drier - but at much faster rates than predicted...
>
>http://theconversation.edu.au/dry-parts-of-the-planet-to-get-drier-wet-parts-wetter-6700http://theconversation.edu.au/
>
> "They revealed a repeating pattern of change believed to be the result of climate change, Wijffels said. "And we see it in the north Atlantic, the south Atlantic, the north Pacific, the south Pacific, the Indian; it's repeated in every ocean basin independently," she said."http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gta4Ck8xze5I-sHAzazzvCB-4GBA?docId=CNG.30fcb51b66f59d429f40a78cff17d57e.3e1
>
> These facts came as news to me here today on yahoo (aap sourced):
>
>http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/-/mp/13533217/new-study-warns-of-tough-aussie-climate/by David Beniuk, AAP, April 27, 2012, 6:19 am [snipped...]
> "Scientists from the CSIRO in Hobart and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California have used the most accurate study yet of ocean saltiness to show the world's dry areas, like Australia, are getting drier and its wet areas getting wetter.
>
> The scientific team says the rate at which the atmosphere moves water from dry spots to wet spots increased by four per cent between 1950-2000 - twice as fast as predicted by current climate models.
>
> They conservatively estimate it could triple by the end of the century, leaving dry land masses like Australia struggling to meet their need for fresh water.
>
> "We're pretty sure that this is clear evidence it's already happening, that the water cycle has accelerated and the rates at which it's accelerating per degree of warming are probably higher than our current models project," Dr Wijffels says.
>
> The study is considered one of the most accurate of its type because data was collected from ocean monitoring equipment, including the Argo fleet of 3,500 robotic floats deployed over the past decade.
> Scientists have previously struggled to produce estimates of water cycle changes because land-based observations of rainfall and evaporation are sparse."
>
>http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/extremes-in-weather-more-likely--scientists-20120427-1xpq8.html
> "The team's leader, Paul Durack, said the finding was important because reductions in the availability of fresh water posed more of a risk to human societies and natural ecosystems than a rise in temperature alone. "Changes to the global water cycle and the corresponding redistribution of rainfall will affect food availability, stability, access and utilisation," said Dr Durack, a former CSIRO researcher now at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California.
>
> Interesting audio file and transcript of recent interview with Dr Susan Wijffels, CSIRO oceanographer, who leads the Argo profiling program in Hobart, Tasmania. Pirates show an interest in Argo...
>http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/ocean-data-feeds-into-weather-and-climate-forecasting/3963080
>
> "Pine Barrens" may sadly take on a different meaning in many places sometime soon...
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" <mkriley48@...> wrote:
>
> the scent of a pine tree and the stench of a diesel truck exhaust
> are both hydrocarbons, which one do you want up your nose?
> Seams like your dad was a tea bagger ahead of his time.
> mike
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, james fry <hunter02_2002@> wrote:
> >
> > In a conversation I had with my dad forty years ago, he said to me "Son, this eco crap will be the new communism. It will be how the 'special people', you know, the people that 'know best', will tell the rest of us how to live. Dad was right.
> > 'Carbon Footprint'? I don't know how that figure from Australian forests and plantation came about but a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "RSS" <otter55806@...> wrote:
>
> In the end it won't matter, because due to overwhelming human stupidity we are all toast! We are arrogant and think we deserve to have everything the way we want it. What we seem to want now is to overpopulate and over consume everything. We are just another species of animal on this planet and we will go extinct just as many species have before us!

----- Original Message -----

From:GNHBus@...

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Friday, April 27, 2012 9:03 AM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)

 

Good morning

We are installing an Electric Yacht System 360ib into a 1948 38' Novi Lobster Lobster Boat out of Quincy MA.

This vessel has a WWII Detroit Diesel Landing Craft Propulsion System that costs $100 day to fuel and bellows

pollutants like crazy while hauling traps at idle. 

She will go from 6-8 hrs diesel idle per day, to 6-8 hrs electric and 45 min diesel out,45 min In.

-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Apr 27, 2012 8:50 am
Subject: Re: [bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)

 

Serious stuff indeed.

Still, climate-change deniers abound.  Good thing that serious people are waking up - albeit possibly too late ?!

As you know, we've pushed hard and I continue to raise the issue of sustainable fishing-fleets for starters, but resistance to burning less fuel and thus money is astonishingly high and stubborn, typically wrapped in some sort of tortured internally-incoherent justification, often fading out with nebulous references to 'evil forces' beyond the horizon.  Childish, ignorant, clearly dangerous all around in its consequences if allowed to govern policy.

I wished WOODENBOAT would see and leverage its potentially quite potent political role beyond a lot of varnish and 'period-pieces'.  There's always hope...  

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----

From:c.ruzer

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Friday, April 27, 2012 8:38 AM

Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, james fry <hunter02_2002@...> wrote:
> a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine
> Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the
> trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.

It's by far the amount of truck CO2 emitted that ought be compared, not HCs (trucks shouldn't be emitting methane or much other nasty CO2 equivalent in any quantity - carcinogenic particulates etc being another thing). As for CO2, just how much CO2 did those trucks absorb from the air every week? Any?

A study done a while back?

Well then, SEEN LAST NIGHT - coincidental to this topic, on a televised science programme segment concerning climate related tree death numbers now massively increasing globally. The greenhouse planet could now be on the edge of "wholesale mortality of the world's forests". Those forests have much to do with producing and regulating climate, of course... So, one more example of accelerated nasty climate change via runaway positive feedback in the greenhouse and resulting in a nastier climate and possibly a timberless world... (side note: this is about a spreading drying and dying, but, wetlanders, don't smile too soon, you may also have seen sometime that overwatered plants often show similar signs of stress to those deprived of water... gaseous exchange, water psi, physiology, pathogens, parasites, pests: a balancing act.)

CATALYST
Thursday, 26 April 2012 [snipped...]
video and transcript here:http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3488105.htm

TREE DEATHS

"NARRATION
The Rocky Mountains of North America - home to some of the most beautiful, pristine forests in the world. But the shades of burnt golden reds aren't the changing tones of Autumn; they're dead and dying trees.

Dr Craig Allen
We're looking at tree mortality over a scale of tens of millions of hectares in the last decade alone.

NARRATION
In fact, right across the globe, there are reports of trees dying in mass numbers.

Dr Craig Allen
We see all around the world in places where there have been droughts, that drought - particularly droughts and heatwaves - trigger mass waves of mortality. No major forest type is immune.

NARRATION
Across the western US, tree death rate have more than doubled in the past few decades.

Dr Craig Allen
So what we're seeing in these forest die-off events around the world are trees passing the tipping point of stress - the thresholds of mortality. Unfortunately we don't know very much about these thresholds at this point.

Dr Craig Allen
There may be insects and fungal pests that emerge at that point in time, but underlying it is the physiological stress on the trees that compromises their defences. You could think of it actually sort of like HIV in humans. HIV doesn't directly kill people, but by compromising our immune systems, it makes us vulnerable to secondary ah, you know, viruses and other things that can kill us. It's similar in trees.

NARRATION
The effect climate change may have on our forests is a huge concern. But an even greater worry - how will dying trees affect the climate? In 2005, the heart of the world's biggest rainforest suffered a drought so hot and severe it turned the Amazon jungle from a carbon sink to a carbon source. A second once-in-a-century drought happened five years later.

Dr Craig Allen
What's most alarming is that these die-off events may be just the tip of the iceberg. We know that warming, temperatures exacerbate tree mortality, and the climate predictions are that the world is going to get much warmer soon. Um, so we may be just at the very front edge of what could be wholesale mortality of the world's forests - the forests that we know and care about today."

Related article:

_What's Killing the Great Forests of the American West?_

15 Mar 2010: Report

"Across western North America, huge tracts of forest are dying off at an extraordinary rate, mostly because of outbreaks of insects. Scientists are now seeing such forest die-offs around the world and are linking them to changes in climate." "In 2008, so much of British Columbia's forests had died they also went from being a net carbon sink to carbon source." "Russian researchers also are concerned that warmer, dryer conditions will lead to increased outbreaks of the Siberian moth, which can destroy large swaths of Russia's boreal forest." "Although western North America has been hardest hit by insect infestations, sizeable areas of forest in Australia, Russia, France, and other countries have experienced die-offs, most of which appears to have been caused by drought, high temperatures, or both." "In Africa where I work, suddenly whole hillsides are dropping dead," she said. "It's happening so fast people are in shock. It's a tragedy." "Trees across the world are stressed already from fragmentation, air pollution, and other problems... I don't know how much stress the forests of the world can take," said Allen."http://e360.yale.edu/feature/whats_killing_the_great_forests_of_the_american_west/2252/Yale Environment 360http://e360.yale.edu/

_A global overview of drought and heat-induced tree mortality reveals emerging climate change risks for forests_

(the paper cited in the above article. 20 co-authors)Forest Ecology and Management, Volume 259, Issue 4, 5 February 2010, Pages 660–684

"Although episodic mortality occurs in the absence of climate change, studies compiled here suggest that at least some of the world's forested ecosystems already may be responding to climate change and raise concern that forests may become increasingly vulnerable to higher background tree mortality rates and die-off in response to future warming and drought, even in environments that are not normally considered water-limited... Overall, our review reveals the potential for amplified tree mortality due to drought and heat in forests worldwide."http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037811270900615X
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03781127/259/4
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03781127
related articleshttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleListURL&_method=list&_ArticleListID=1972582475&_sort=v&_st=17&view=c&_origin=related_art&_acct=C000228598&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=85d8d9867f2ac47a6e556d619172a78d&searchtype=a

THERE'S NO SOLACE FOR TREES FROM THE OCEANS EITHER. SEEN TODAY, JUST IN... are news reports of results from CSIRO in Hobart and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California as published in the journal SCIENCE. Thousands of robotic ocean monitoring diving bouys now accurately confirm wet climates getting wetter and dry climates getting drier - but at much faster rates than predicted...

http://theconversation.edu.au/dry-parts-of-the-planet-to-get-drier-wet-parts-wetter-6700http://theconversation.edu.au/

"They revealed a repeating pattern of change believed to be the result of climate change, Wijffels said. "And we see it in the north Atlantic, the south Atlantic, the north Pacific, the south Pacific, the Indian; it's repeated in every ocean basin independently," she said."http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gta4Ck8xze5I-sHAzazzvCB-4GBA?docId=CNG.30fcb51b66f59d429f40a78cff17d57e.3e1

These facts came as news to me here today on yahoo (aap sourced):

http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/-/mp/13533217/new-study-warns-of-tough-aussie-climate/by David Beniuk, AAP, April 27, 2012, 6:19 am [snipped...]
"Scientists from the CSIRO in Hobart and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California have used the most accurate study yet of ocean saltiness to show the world's dry areas, like Australia, are getting drier and its wet areas getting wetter.

The scientific team says the rate at which the atmosphere moves water from dry spots to wet spots increased by four per cent between 1950-2000 - twice as fast as predicted by current climate models.

They conservatively estimate it could triple by the end of the century, leaving dry land masses like Australia struggling to meet their need for fresh water.

"We're pretty sure that this is clear evidence it's already happening, that the water cycle has accelerated and the rates at which it's accelerating per degree of warming are probably higher than our current models project," Dr Wijffels says.

The study is considered one of the most accurate of its type because data was collected from ocean monitoring equipment, including the Argo fleet of 3,500 robotic floats deployed over the past decade.
Scientists have previously struggled to produce estimates of water cycle changes because land-based observations of rainfall and evaporation are sparse."

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/extremes-in-weather-more-likely--scientists-20120427-1xpq8.html
"The team's leader, Paul Durack, said the finding was important because reductions in the availability of fresh water posed more of a risk to human societies and natural ecosystems than a rise in temperature alone. "Changes to the global water cycle and the corresponding redistribution of rainfall will affect food availability, stability, access and utilisation," said Dr Durack, a former CSIRO researcher now at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California.

Interesting audio file and transcript of recent interview with Dr Susan Wijffels, CSIRO oceanographer, who leads the Argo profiling program in Hobart, Tasmania. Pirates show an interest in Argo...
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/ocean-data-feeds-into-weather-and-climate-forecasting/3963080

"Pine Barrens" may sadly take on a different meaning in many places sometime soon...

----- Original Message -----

From:RSS

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Friday, April 27, 2012 8:58 AM

Subject:[bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

In the end it won't matter, because due to overwhelming human stupidity we are all toast! We are arrogant and think we deserve to have everything the way we want it. What we seem to want now is to overpopulate and over consume everything. We are just another species of animal on this planet and we will go extinct just as many species have before us!

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Greg Kay <gregmkay@...> wrote:
>
> The environmental concerns and future fuel prices are certainly important, true, but the primary and most immediate concern is your own life and the lives of your passengers; use whatever wood it takes, no matter where it comes from, to make the soundest boat you can afford. 
>
> Both ecologically and economically, too much cutting corners in the name of the latest "green" obsession can also be "penny-wise and pound-foolish." Using less than proper wood often translates to your boat not lasting as long, meaning you'll have to use more wood to build yet another boat when this one finally fails (Kind of like the morons who splash old ladies' fur coats with paint to "protect the animals," when what it actually means that she'll just go and buy another one instead of keeping the one she has.). It would seem that, given the choice, a boat that lasts a lifetime is better for both the environment and the pocket book than having to build three or four in that same period, no matter what the sounder boat is made from.
>
> In the end, it's your boat, and you should build it the way you want. If something you need is legally on the market and you can afford it, by all means buy it and use it; there is no moral onus on doing so.
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Greg Kay <gregmkay@...> wrote:
>
> The environmental concerns and future fuel prices are certainly important, true, but the primary and most immediate concern is your own life and the lives of your passengers; use whatever wood it takes, no matter where it comes from, to make the soundest boat you can afford.
>
> Both ecologically and economically, too much cutting corners in the name of the latest "green" obsession can also be "penny-wise and pound-foolish." Using less than proper wood often translates to your boat not lasting as long, meaning you'll have to use more wood to build yet another boat when this one finally fails (Kind of like the morons who splash old ladies' fur coats with paint to "protect the animals," when what it actually means that she'll just go and buy another one instead of keeping the one she has.). It would seem that, given the choice, a boat that lasts a lifetime is better for both the environment and the pocket book than having to build three or four in that same period, no matter what the sounder boat is made from.
>
> In the end, it's your boat, and you should build it the way you want. If something you need is legally on the market and you can afford it, by all means buy it and use it; there is no moral onus on doing so.
>

----- Original Message -----

From:c.ruzer

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Friday, April 27, 2012 8:38 AM

Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (world-wide forest die-off now) (was Re: Lightweight marineply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, james fry <hunter02_2002@...> wrote:
> a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine
> Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the
> trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.

It's by far the amount of truck CO2 emitted that ought be compared, not HCs (trucks shouldn't be emitting methane or much other nasty CO2 equivalent in any quantity - carcinogenic particulates etc being another thing). As for CO2, just how much CO2 did those trucks absorb from the air every week? Any?

A study done a while back?

Well then, SEEN LAST NIGHT - coincidental to this topic, on a televised science programme segment concerning climate related tree death numbers now massively increasing globally. The greenhouse planet could now be on the edge of "wholesale mortality of the world's forests". Those forests have much to do with producing and regulating climate, of course... So, one more example of accelerated nasty climate change via runaway positive feedback in the greenhouse and resulting in a nastier climate and possibly a timberless world... (side note: this is about a spreading drying and dying, but, wetlanders, don't smile too soon, you may also have seen sometime that overwatered plants often show similar signs of stress to those deprived of water... gaseous exchange, water psi, physiology, pathogens, parasites, pests: a balancing act.)

CATALYST
Thursday, 26 April 2012 [snipped...]
video and transcript here:http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3488105.htm

TREE DEATHS

"NARRATION
The Rocky Mountains of North America - home to some of the most beautiful, pristine forests in the world. But the shades of burnt golden reds aren't the changing tones of Autumn; they're dead and dying trees.

Dr Craig Allen
We're looking at tree mortality over a scale of tens of millions of hectares in the last decade alone.

NARRATION
In fact, right across the globe, there are reports of trees dying in mass numbers.

Dr Craig Allen
We see all around the world in places where there have been droughts, that drought - particularly droughts and heatwaves - trigger mass waves of mortality. No major forest type is immune.

NARRATION
Across the western US, tree death rate have more than doubled in the past few decades.

Dr Craig Allen
So what we're seeing in these forest die-off events around the world are trees passing the tipping point of stress - the thresholds of mortality. Unfortunately we don't know very much about these thresholds at this point.

Dr Craig Allen
There may be insects and fungal pests that emerge at that point in time, but underlying it is the physiological stress on the trees that compromises their defences. You could think of it actually sort of like HIV in humans. HIV doesn't directly kill people, but by compromising our immune systems, it makes us vulnerable to secondary ah, you know, viruses and other things that can kill us. It's similar in trees.

NARRATION
The effect climate change may have on our forests is a huge concern. But an even greater worry - how will dying trees affect the climate? In 2005, the heart of the world's biggest rainforest suffered a drought so hot and severe it turned the Amazon jungle from a carbon sink to a carbon source. A second once-in-a-century drought happened five years later.

Dr Craig Allen
What's most alarming is that these die-off events may be just the tip of the iceberg. We know that warming, temperatures exacerbate tree mortality, and the climate predictions are that the world is going to get much warmer soon. Um, so we may be just at the very front edge of what could be wholesale mortality of the world's forests - the forests that we know and care about today."

Related article:

_What's Killing the Great Forests of the American West?_

15 Mar 2010: Report

"Across western North America, huge tracts of forest are dying off at an extraordinary rate, mostly because of outbreaks of insects. Scientists are now seeing such forest die-offs around the world and are linking them to changes in climate." "In 2008, so much of British Columbia's forests had died they also went from being a net carbon sink to carbon source." "Russian researchers also are concerned that warmer, dryer conditions will lead to increased outbreaks of the Siberian moth, which can destroy large swaths of Russia's boreal forest." "Although western North America has been hardest hit by insect infestations, sizeable areas of forest in Australia, Russia, France, and other countries have experienced die-offs, most of which appears to have been caused by drought, high temperatures, or both." "In Africa where I work, suddenly whole hillsides are dropping dead," she said. "It's happening so fast people are in shock. It's a tragedy." "Trees across the world are stressed already from fragmentation, air pollution, and other problems... I don't know how much stress the forests of the world can take," said Allen."http://e360.yale.edu/feature/whats_killing_the_great_forests_of_the_american_west/2252/Yale Environment 360http://e360.yale.edu/

_A global overview of drought and heat-induced tree mortality reveals emerging climate change risks for forests_

(the paper cited in the above article. 20 co-authors)Forest Ecology and Management, Volume 259, Issue 4, 5 February 2010, Pages 660–684

"Although episodic mortality occurs in the absence of climate change, studies compiled here suggest that at least some of the world's forested ecosystems already may be responding to climate change and raise concern that forests may become increasingly vulnerable to higher background tree mortality rates and die-off in response to future warming and drought, even in environments that are not normally considered water-limited... Overall, our review reveals the potential for amplified tree mortality due to drought and heat in forests worldwide."http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037811270900615X
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03781127/259/4
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03781127
related articleshttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleListURL&_method=list&_ArticleListID=1972582475&_sort=v&_st=17&view=c&_origin=related_art&_acct=C000228598&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=85d8d9867f2ac47a6e556d619172a78d&searchtype=a

THERE'S NO SOLACE FOR TREES FROM THE OCEANS EITHER. SEEN TODAY, JUST IN... are news reports of results from CSIRO in Hobart and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California as published in the journal SCIENCE. Thousands of robotic ocean monitoring diving bouys now accurately confirm wet climates getting wetter and dry climates getting drier - but at much faster rates than predicted...

http://theconversation.edu.au/dry-parts-of-the-planet-to-get-drier-wet-parts-wetter-6700http://theconversation.edu.au/

"They revealed a repeating pattern of change believed to be the result of climate change, Wijffels said. "And we see it in the north Atlantic, the south Atlantic, the north Pacific, the south Pacific, the Indian; it's repeated in every ocean basin independently," she said."http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gta4Ck8xze5I-sHAzazzvCB-4GBA?docId=CNG.30fcb51b66f59d429f40a78cff17d57e.3e1

These facts came as news to me here today on yahoo (aap sourced):

http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/-/mp/13533217/new-study-warns-of-tough-aussie-climate/by David Beniuk, AAP, April 27, 2012, 6:19 am [snipped...]
"Scientists from the CSIRO in Hobart and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California have used the most accurate study yet of ocean saltiness to show the world's dry areas, like Australia, are getting drier and its wet areas getting wetter.

The scientific team says the rate at which the atmosphere moves water from dry spots to wet spots increased by four per cent between 1950-2000 - twice as fast as predicted by current climate models.

They conservatively estimate it could triple by the end of the century, leaving dry land masses like Australia struggling to meet their need for fresh water.

"We're pretty sure that this is clear evidence it's already happening, that the water cycle has accelerated and the rates at which it's accelerating per degree of warming are probably higher than our current models project," Dr Wijffels says.

The study is considered one of the most accurate of its type because data was collected from ocean monitoring equipment, including the Argo fleet of 3,500 robotic floats deployed over the past decade.
Scientists have previously struggled to produce estimates of water cycle changes because land-based observations of rainfall and evaporation are sparse."

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/extremes-in-weather-more-likely--scientists-20120427-1xpq8.html
"The team's leader, Paul Durack, said the finding was important because reductions in the availability of fresh water posed more of a risk to human societies and natural ecosystems than a rise in temperature alone. "Changes to the global water cycle and the corresponding redistribution of rainfall will affect food availability, stability, access and utilisation," said Dr Durack, a former CSIRO researcher now at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California.

Interesting audio file and transcript of recent interview with Dr Susan Wijffels, CSIRO oceanographer, who leads the Argo profiling program in Hobart, Tasmania. Pirates show an interest in Argo...
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/ocean-data-feeds-into-weather-and-climate-forecasting/3963080

"Pine Barrens" may sadly take on a different meaning in many places sometime soon...

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Drapela" <edrapela@...> wrote:
>
> If want to be "green" don't build a boat. If you have a lick of common
> sense and are worried about sustainability, plant a tree. My place has 4
> new Maples and 3 new Black Walnuts. That's hell of lot more wood that I
> will use on my next boat.
> Cheers,
> Ed

> a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine
> Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the
> trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.

From:Tom Pee

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 7:31 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

Its a joke saying the US military is going green.  Its the biggest emitter of gases and radiation on earth.

From:"philbolger@..." <philbolger@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:35 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

I should have added my appreciation that you brought to the discussion these excerpts from your well-evolved understanding of this issues on your continent 'down-under'.  As implied by my post, you confirm the wide-spread understanding that focused regional responses to overarching challenges is the most promising approach.  No one-dictate-fits-all, except that we all live on the same globe and can't argue out of that hard fact once we share/imposed upon each other the costs of certain earlier and current on-going life-style choices. 

Not knowing is one thing that was true several decades ago and excused inactivity.  But Phil and I argued this stuff in-house before we got together, i.e, 20 years ago.  And like for so many, who figured certain hard realities well before we 'woke up', it's been clear for a good while now that emerging hard data literally force appropriate action.  And Phil always thought of 'lean' solutions, good-looking or not, as long as it works... 

The US Navy aiming for one 'green'-fueled Aircraft-Carrier-Group by 2020 is one most serious political and technical indicator, defining 'green' asnon-carbon-emittingnuclear-reactor-based drivetrain on the carrier running for decade-plus on one set of fuel-rods making these the fastest man-made structures across the broadest range of sea states at 40+ kts on 100,000tons.  The gas-turbine based destroyers of that Carrier-group would burn sustainably-sourced fuel, currently tested on ships and aircraft.  Subs are all nuclear.  VTOL-carrier dock-landing LHD-8 at 40,000tons is the largest conventionally-powered surface type and the latest such example of fine-tuning the challenges and routines of burning less fuel.  We'll eventually see what this actually costs, first and last.  And how 'green' it really is.  But the signal is unambiguous.  The Pentagon does not follow 'pinko eco-weeny' clap-trap...

Down here on the 'Nano'-level, such thoughts have their place as well, as I'd rather have options to pursue a broad range of 'doing the right thing' than face regulatory dictates.  And since one of Phil's legacies is the persistent respect for and design of de facto low-carbon types for human-power, power and sail, there is a lot to maximize upon.  Obviously, this goes far beyond 'Instant-' or 'box-boat' fixations...and deep into the 21st century.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----

From:philbolger@...

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:45 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

Thanks.
There are indeed some fishers for instance who'd consider motor-sailing again for certain fisheries, assuming the sailing-related cost does not eat up any plausible savings in fuel...  Federal regs. favoring 'greenest' commercial fishing types would help.  We'll see how that evolves.  Any halfway successful 'green' project makes that thinking more plausible.  Under the current Obama-Administration NOAA (Natl. Oceanograph. Atmosph.Admin.)  also governing fishing is certainly aware of the favorable political opportunities that would emerge from R&D into Low-to-Least Carbon Fishing-Types. 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----

From:c.ruzer

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:03 PM

Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
> There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
>

Excellent - keep on pushing for that - more power to you! The "carbon-footprint of transport" certainly is a deep one. One answer, wooden sailing ships? I agree 'sustainably-sourced' claims can be "pious", or greenwash, so it's important that their credibility is tested.

From page 2 of the 36 page Boral Plywood Handbook brochure (July, 2009):
================
Australian plantation
and commercial forests
absorb an amount of
carbon equivalent to
taking 9 million cars off
the road each year.1
For further information on timber and its
sustainability credentials contact Boral Plywood and
ask for the Building a Sustainable Future brochure.
----------------

Timber and Sustainability

Excess carbon gas in the earth's atmosphere
contributes to the effects of climate change. Forestry
is one of the best carbon sinks and long-term carbon
reservoirs on the planet.

Unlike other building materials, wood can be harvested,
re-grown and re-harvested in an average person's lifetime.
Furthermore, finished wood products store carbon for
many decades, sometimes centuries.

Timber has one of the lowest embodied energy ratings
of all building products. Compared to other common
building materials, timber generates much less carbon
in the production process. Other building materials
such as steel and aluminium do not store carbon and
can contribute significant amounts of carbon to the
atmosphere during the manufacturing process.

Australian plantation and commercial forests absorb an
amount of carbon equivalent to taking 9 million cars off the
road each year.

Australian forests are protected by strict Federal and
State controls and regulations ensuring that there is a
healthy balance between long term conservation and
sustainable forestry management.

Only 6.3% of total Australian forests (9.4 million
hectares) are available for timber harvesting each year. Of
the forestry available for harvesting only 1% is harvested
each year.2

When specifying for a sustainable future and a smaller
carbon footprint, architects, builders and consumers
should consider the following recommendations

• Consider timber products wherever possible. Together
with good design, lightweight timber construction is
generally a better option in terms of embodied energy
and carbon storage.

• Keep in mind the impact of disposal. Of all building
products, timber presents the least number of
concerns when it comes to reuse or disposal.

• Choose certified, legal products.

• Specify Australian products. Australia has a world-class
forestry regulatory system which can be trusted.

--------------
Table 1.0
Material Carbon released (kg/m3) Carbon stored (kg/m3)
Timber products 15 250
Steel 5,320 0
Concrete 120 0
Aluminium 22,000 0
Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corp, 1997. Figures indicated for guideline purposes only. The figures are a measure directly related to manufacture of material.
Timber is renewable, recyclable and sustainable.
--------------

==============

To which I would add that certification by the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) is most highly desirable. Especially if foreign sourced. More so if of tropical/sub-tropical sourced timbers.

http://www.fsc.org/

http://www.fscaustralia.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Stewardship_Council

The Boral brochure quoted above states that Boral Plywood is certified by The Australian Forestry Certification Scheme (AFCS). AFCS is a forest certification scheme developed to promote sustainable forestry management specifically for the Australian environment. AFCS is mutually acknowledged by the internationally recognised Program for the Endorsement of Forestry Certification (PEFC). The AFCS is the only forest certification scheme with an Australian Standard AS4708-2007.
http://www.forestrystandard.org.au/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_the_Endorsement_of_Forest_Certification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forests_of_Australia

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, james fry <hunter02_2002@...> wrote:
>
> In a conversation I had with my dad forty years ago, he said to me "Son, this eco crap will be the new communism. It will be how the 'special people', you know, the people that 'know best', will tell the rest of us how to live. Dad was right.
> 'Carbon Footprint'? I don't know how that figure from Australian forests and plantation came about but a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.
> As for our own 'sustainability', you speak of the NorthEast and I'm quite familiar with New Hampshire. Approximately 110 years ago the state was 75-80% cleared farm land. Today it's 80+% forested. So things can bounce back.
> You mention that there's 'no way to go green structurally'; I don't know what you think you need, but I've built eight boats, everything from a large pirogue and an airboat, to a version of Mr Bolger's SneakEasy. All I've ever needed for the frame was Southern Yellow Pine. I've never had a problem with fastenings or anything else.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:03 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)
>
>
> Â
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> > There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> > Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
> >
>
> Excellent - keep on pushing for that - more power to you! The "carbon-footprint of transport" certainly is a deep one. One answer, wooden sailing ships? I agree 'sustainably-sourced' claims can be "pious", or greenwash, so it's important that their credibility is tested.
>
> From page 2 of the 36 page Boral Plywood Handbook brochure (July, 2009):
> ================
> Australian plantation
> and commercial forests
> absorb an amount of
> carbon equivalent to
> taking 9 million cars off
> the road each year.1
> For further information on timber and its
> sustainability credentials contact Boral Plywood and
> ask for the Building a Sustainable Future brochure.
> ----------------
>
> Timber and Sustainability
>
> Excess carbon gas in the earth's atmosphere
> contributes to the effects of climate change. Forestry
> is one of the best carbon sinks and long-term carbon
> reservoirs on the planet.
>
> Unlike other building materials, wood can be harvested,
> re-grown and re-harvested in an average person's lifetime.
> Furthermore, finished wood products store carbon for
> many decades, sometimes centuries.
>
> Timber has one of the lowest embodied energy ratings
> of all building products. Compared to other common
> building materials, timber generates much less carbon
> in the production process. Other building materials
> such as steel and aluminium do not store carbon and
> can contribute significant amounts of carbon to the
> atmosphere during the manufacturing process.
>
> Australian plantation and commercial forests absorb an
> amount of carbon equivalent to taking 9 million cars off the
> road each year.
>
> Australian forests are protected by strict Federal and
> State controls and regulations ensuring that there is a
> healthy balance between long term conservation and
> sustainable forestry management.
>
> Only 6.3% of total Australian forests (9.4 million
> hectares) are available for timber harvesting each year. Of
> the forestry available for harvesting only 1% is harvested
> each year.2
>
> When specifying for a sustainable future and a smaller
> carbon footprint, architects, builders and consumers
> should consider the following recommendations
>
> • Consider timber products wherever possible. Together
> with good design, lightweight timber construction is
> generally a better option in terms of embodied energy
> and carbon storage.
>
> • Keep in mind the impact of disposal. Of all building
> products, timber presents the least number of
> concerns when it comes to reuse or disposal.
>
> • Choose certified, legal products.
>
> • Specify Australian products. Australia has a world-class
> forestry regulatory system which can be trusted.
>
> --------------
> Table 1.0
> Material Carbon released (kg/m3) Carbon stored (kg/m3)
> Timber products 15 250
> Steel 5,320 0
> Concrete 120 0
> Aluminium 22,000 0
> Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corp, 1997. Figures indicated for guideline purposes only. The figures are a measure directly related to manufacture of material.
> Timber is renewable, recyclable and sustainable.
> --------------
>
> ==============
>
> To which I would add that certification by the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) is most highly desirable. Especially if foreign sourced. More so if of tropical/sub-tropical sourced timbers.
>
>http://www.fsc.org/
>
>http://www.fscaustralia.org/
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Stewardship_Council
>
> The Boral brochure quoted above states that Boral Plywood is certified by The Australian Forestry Certification Scheme (AFCS). AFCS is a forest certification scheme developed to promote sustainable forestry management specifically for the Australian environment. AFCS is mutually acknowledged by the internationally recognised Program for the Endorsement of Forestry Certification (PEFC). The AFCS is the only forest certification scheme with an Australian Standard AS4708-2007.
>http://www.forestrystandard.org.au/
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_the_Endorsement_of_Forest_Certification
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forests_of_Australia
>

----- Original Message -----

From:tom s

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:27 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

In the heating industry we're starting to consider biofuels such as vegetable diesel or pellet stoves the most sustainable with the lightest carbon foot print.  with traditional oil or natural gas (or coal) you're dragging up carbon that's been sequestered for eons and releasing it into the atmosphere.  with the biofuels, they pull existing carbon out of the air to grow and so essentially "net zero" on the carbon scale.

I leave electrical out of the mix because we produce so much of it using coal, oil and gas.  Then we compound the problem with the distribution grid losses.

50 percent of the energy used in this country is to heat and cool buildings and homes.  conservation through more efficient design and retrofit is the least cost/most effective way to address the energy and carbon issues.

Kudos Suzanne on being part of at least a partial solution.

Tom
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 26, 2012, at 7:14 AM, <philbolger@...> wrote:

 

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Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling,

As a commercial proposition for both USN and for instance commercial fishing all the romantic conspiratorial lingo you father educated you with is just that.

We are talking hard numbers here and necessary fiscal-, business- and political plausibility if any such water-borne commerce are to cope with what is happening in the energy-market, regulatory realm (fishing), or just what the Department of Defense states in its Quadrennial Defense Review 2010 fully embracing and increasingly responding to as the unambiguous reality of climate-change and progressively challenging energy-prospects. 

While there won't be plywood aircraft carriers or destroyers, economic and ecological realities are serious enough  to produce R&D efforts even deep in the Pentagon.  And of course USN runs a fleet of 80-90s-era 1450-tons wooden frontline surface combatants.

Here in Gloucester, MA.USA, both commercial fishing and tourism-fleets - typically built for $1/gal - will not be economically viable unless they adapt to $5/gal (as we had already in 2008).  What you do in your pleasure-craft likely matters little as it is neither here nor there, unless it is a 'high-carbon' type that won't run much anymore 'for fun' at $5/gal.

As to trees growing, the vector of CO2 is outpacing any capacity to fight its ill effects.  And we can indeed distinguish between the sources of these massive negative alteration to the chemistry of our atmosphere.  Yes, trees grow faster yet with that extra dose of CO2 but the rest of the uglies that come with it overshadow everything.  So while there are more trees again in NH - a fraction of the original stock of course - the local, regional, national, global cost of hyper-consumption of non-renewable energy and materials will be with us and increasing far beyond our life-times.  That is without fretting over fiscal 'debt' that is loaded on the next generation's back.  None is sustainable by the measure of the most hard-core MBA Math-heads and their spreadsheets.

What Phil and then both of us had on the brain is indeed plausible minimalism where doable.  And that thinking attracted USN and DMF and quite a few of his and later our clients.  There's always more to learn.  But you got to 'do it' versus dismissing the challenges on whatever level of analysis.  Being part of the urgent quest for solutions...

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F    

----- Original Message -----

From:james fry

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:45 AM

Subject:Re: [bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

In a conversation I had with my dad forty years ago, he said to me "Son, this eco crap will be the new communism. It will be how the 'special people', you know, the people that 'know best', will tell the rest of us how to live. Dad was right.

'Carbon Footprint'? I don't know how that figure from Australian forests and plantation came about but a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.

As for our own 'sustainability', you speak of the NorthEast and I'm quite familiar with New Hampshire. Approximately 110 years ago the state was 75-80% cleared farm land. Today it's 80+% forested. So things can bounce back.

You mention that there's 'no way to go green structurally'; I don't know what you think you need, but I've built eight boats, everything from a large pirogue and an airboat, to a version of Mr Bolger's SneakEasy. All I've ever needed for the frame was Southern Yellow Pine. I've never had a problem with fastenings or anything else.

From:c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:03 PM
Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
> There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
>

Excellent - keep on pushing for that - more power to you! The "carbon-footprint of transport" certainly is a deep one. One answer, wooden sailing ships? I agree 'sustainably-sourced' claims can be "pious", or greenwash, so it's important that their credibility is tested.

From page 2 of the 36 page Boral Plywood Handbook brochure (July, 2009):
================
Australian plantation
and commercial forests
absorb an amount of
carbon equivalent to
taking 9 million cars off
the road each year.1
For further information on timber and its
sustainability credentials contact Boral Plywood and
ask for the Building a Sustainable Future brochure.
----------------

Timber and Sustainability

Excess carbon gas in the earth's atmosphere
contributes to the effects of climate change. Forestry
is one of the best carbon sinks and long-term carbon
reservoirs on the planet.

Unlike other building materials, wood can be harvested,
re-grown and re-harvested in an average person's lifetime.
Furthermore, finished wood products store carbon for
many decades, sometimes centuries.

Timber has one of the lowest embodied energy ratings
of all building products. Compared to other common
building materials, timber generates much less carbon
in the production process. Other building materials
such as steel and aluminium do not store carbon and
can contribute significant amounts of carbon to the
atmosphere during the manufacturing process.

Australian plantation and commercial forests absorb an
amount of carbon equivalent to taking 9 million cars off the
road each year.

Australian forests are protected by strict Federal and
State controls and regulations ensuring that there is a
healthy balance between long term conservation and
sustainable forestry management.

Only 6.3% of total Australian forests (9.4 million
hectares) are available for timber harvesting each year. Of
the forestry available for harvesting only 1% is harvested
each year.2

When specifying for a sustainable future and a smaller
carbon footprint, architects, builders and consumers
should consider the following recommendations

• Consider timber products wherever possible. Together
with good design, lightweight timber construction is
generally a better option in terms of embodied energy
and carbon storage.

• Keep in mind the impact of disposal. Of all building
products, timber presents the least number of
concerns when it comes to reuse or disposal.

• Choose certified, legal products.

• Specify Australian products. Australia has a world-class
forestry regulatory system which can be trusted.

--------------
Table 1.0
Material Carbon released (kg/m3) Carbon stored (kg/m3)
Timber products 15 250
Steel 5,320 0
Concrete 120 0
Aluminium 22,000 0
Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corp, 1997. Figures indicated for guideline purposes only. The figures are a measure directly related to manufacture of material.
Timber is renewable, recyclable and sustainable.
--------------

==============

To which I would add that certification by the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) is most highly desirable. Especially if foreign sourced. More so if of tropical/sub-tropical sourced timbers.

http://www.fsc.org/

http://www.fscaustralia.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Stewardship_Council

The Boral brochure quoted above states that Boral Plywood is certified by The Australian Forestry Certification Scheme (AFCS). AFCS is a forest certification scheme developed to promote sustainable forestry management specifically for the Australian environment. AFCS is mutually acknowledged by the internationally recognised Program for the Endorsement of Forestry Certification (PEFC). The AFCS is the only forest certification scheme with an Australian Standard AS4708-2007.
http://www.forestrystandard.org.au/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_the_Endorsement_of_Forest_Certification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forests_of_Australia

 

As a commercial proposition for both USN and for instance commercial fishing all the romantic conspiratorial lingo you father educated you with is just that.

We are talking hard numbers here and necessary fiscal-, business- and political plausibility if any such water-borne commerce are to cope with what is happening in the energy-market, regulatory realm (fishing), or just what the Department of Defense states in its Quadrennial Defense Review 2010 fully embracing and increasingly responding to as the unambiguous reality of climate-change and progressively challenging energy-prospects. 

While there won't be plywood aircraft carriers or destroyers, economic and ecological realities are serious enough  to produce R&D efforts even deep in the Pentagon.  And of course USN runs a fleet of 80-90s-era 1450-tons wooden frontline surface combatants.

Here in Gloucester, MA.USA, both commercial fishing and tourism-fleets - typically built for $1/gal - will not be economically viable unless they adapt to $5/gal (as we had already in 2008).  What you do in your pleasure-craft likely matters little as it is neither here nor there, unless it is a 'high-carbon' type that won't run much anymore 'for fun' at $5/gal.

As to trees growing, the vector of CO2 is outpacing any capacity to fight its ill effects.  And we can indeed distinguish between the sources of these massive negative alteration to the chemistry of our atmosphere.  Yes, trees grow faster yet with that extra dose of CO2 but the rest of the uglies that come with it overshadow everything.  So while there are more trees again in NH - a fraction of the original stock of course - the local, regional, national, global cost of hyper-consumption of non-renewable energy and materials will be with us and increasing far beyond our life-times.  That is without fretting over fiscal 'debt' that is loaded on the next generation's back.  None is sustainable by the measure of the most hard-core MBA Math-heads and their spreadsheets.

What Phil and then both of us had on the brain is indeed plausible minimalism where doable.  And that thinking attracted USN and DMF and quite a few of his and later our clients.  There's always more to learn.  But you got to 'do it' versus dismissing the challenges on whatever level of analysis.  Being part of the urgent quest for solutions...

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F    

----- Original Message -----

From:james fry

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:45 AM

Subject:Re: [bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

In a conversation I had with my dad forty years ago, he said to me "Son, this eco crap will be the new communism. It will be how the 'special people', you know, the people that 'know best', will tell the rest of us how to live. Dad was right.

'Carbon Footprint'? I don't know how that figure from Australian forests and plantation came about but a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.

As for our own 'sustainability', you speak of the NorthEast and I'm quite familiar with New Hampshire. Approximately 110 years ago the state was 75-80% cleared farm land. Today it's 80+% forested. So things can bounce back.

You mention that there's 'no way to go green structurally'; I don't know what you think you need, but I've built eight boats, everything from a large pirogue and an airboat, to a version of Mr Bolger's SneakEasy. All I've ever needed for the frame was Southern Yellow Pine. I've never had a problem with fastenings or anything else.

From:c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:03 PM
Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
> There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
>

Excellent - keep on pushing for that - more power to you! The "carbon-footprint of transport" certainly is a deep one. One answer, wooden sailing ships? I agree 'sustainably-sourced' claims can be "pious", or greenwash, so it's important that their credibility is tested.

From page 2 of the 36 page Boral Plywood Handbook brochure (July, 2009):
================
Australian plantation
and commercial forests
absorb an amount of
carbon equivalent to
taking 9 million cars off
the road each year.1
For further information on timber and its
sustainability credentials contact Boral Plywood and
ask for the Building a Sustainable Future brochure.
----------------

Timber and Sustainability

Excess carbon gas in the earth's atmosphere
contributes to the effects of climate change. Forestry
is one of the best carbon sinks and long-term carbon
reservoirs on the planet.

Unlike other building materials, wood can be harvested,
re-grown and re-harvested in an average person's lifetime.
Furthermore, finished wood products store carbon for
many decades, sometimes centuries.

Timber has one of the lowest embodied energy ratings
of all building products. Compared to other common
building materials, timber generates much less carbon
in the production process. Other building materials
such as steel and aluminium do not store carbon and
can contribute significant amounts of carbon to the
atmosphere during the manufacturing process.

Australian plantation and commercial forests absorb an
amount of carbon equivalent to taking 9 million cars off the
road each year.

Australian forests are protected by strict Federal and
State controls and regulations ensuring that there is a
healthy balance between long term conservation and
sustainable forestry management.

Only 6.3% of total Australian forests (9.4 million
hectares) are available for timber harvesting each year. Of
the forestry available for harvesting only 1% is harvested
each year.2

When specifying for a sustainable future and a smaller
carbon footprint, architects, builders and consumers
should consider the following recommendations

• Consider timber products wherever possible. Together
with good design, lightweight timber construction is
generally a better option in terms of embodied energy
and carbon storage.

• Keep in mind the impact of disposal. Of all building
products, timber presents the least number of
concerns when it comes to reuse or disposal.

• Choose certified, legal products.

• Specify Australian products. Australia has a world-class
forestry regulatory system which can be trusted.

--------------
Table 1.0
Material Carbon released (kg/m3) Carbon stored (kg/m3)
Timber products 15 250
Steel 5,320 0
Concrete 120 0
Aluminium 22,000 0
Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corp, 1997. Figures indicated for guideline purposes only. The figures are a measure directly related to manufacture of material.
Timber is renewable, recyclable and sustainable.
--------------

==============

To which I would add that certification by the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) is most highly desirable. Especially if foreign sourced. More so if of tropical/sub-tropical sourced timbers.

http://www.fsc.org/

http://www.fscaustralia.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Stewardship_Council

The Boral brochure quoted above states that Boral Plywood is certified by The Australian Forestry Certification Scheme (AFCS). AFCS is a forest certification scheme developed to promote sustainable forestry management specifically for the Australian environment. AFCS is mutually acknowledged by the internationally recognised Program for the Endorsement of Forestry Certification (PEFC). The AFCS is the only forest certification scheme with an Australian Standard AS4708-2007.
http://www.forestrystandard.org.au/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_the_Endorsement_of_Forest_Certification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forests_of_Australia

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----- Original Message -----

From:philbolger@...

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:45 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

Thanks.
There are indeed some fishers for instance who'd consider motor-sailing again for certain fisheries, assuming the sailing-related cost does not eat up any plausible savings in fuel...  Federal regs. favoring 'greenest' commercial fishing types would help.  We'll see how that evolves.  Any halfway successful 'green' project makes that thinking more plausible.  Under the current Obama-Administration NOAA (Natl. Oceanograph. Atmosph.Admin.)  also governing fishing is certainly aware of the favorable political opportunities that would emerge from R&D into Low-to-Least Carbon Fishing-Types. 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----

From:c.ruzer

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:03 PM

Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
> There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
>

Excellent - keep on pushing for that - more power to you! The "carbon-footprint of transport" certainly is a deep one. One answer, wooden sailing ships? I agree 'sustainably-sourced' claims can be "pious", or greenwash, so it's important that their credibility is tested.

From page 2 of the 36 page Boral Plywood Handbook brochure (July, 2009):
================
Australian plantation
and commercial forests
absorb an amount of
carbon equivalent to
taking 9 million cars off
the road each year.1
For further information on timber and its
sustainability credentials contact Boral Plywood and
ask for the Building a Sustainable Future brochure.
----------------

Timber and Sustainability

Excess carbon gas in the earth's atmosphere
contributes to the effects of climate change. Forestry
is one of the best carbon sinks and long-term carbon
reservoirs on the planet.

Unlike other building materials, wood can be harvested,
re-grown and re-harvested in an average person's lifetime.
Furthermore, finished wood products store carbon for
many decades, sometimes centuries.

Timber has one of the lowest embodied energy ratings
of all building products. Compared to other common
building materials, timber generates much less carbon
in the production process. Other building materials
such as steel and aluminium do not store carbon and
can contribute significant amounts of carbon to the
atmosphere during the manufacturing process.

Australian plantation and commercial forests absorb an
amount of carbon equivalent to taking 9 million cars off the
road each year.

Australian forests are protected by strict Federal and
State controls and regulations ensuring that there is a
healthy balance between long term conservation and
sustainable forestry management.

Only 6.3% of total Australian forests (9.4 million
hectares) are available for timber harvesting each year. Of
the forestry available for harvesting only 1% is harvested
each year.2

When specifying for a sustainable future and a smaller
carbon footprint, architects, builders and consumers
should consider the following recommendations

• Consider timber products wherever possible. Together
with good design, lightweight timber construction is
generally a better option in terms of embodied energy
and carbon storage.

• Keep in mind the impact of disposal. Of all building
products, timber presents the least number of
concerns when it comes to reuse or disposal.

• Choose certified, legal products.

• Specify Australian products. Australia has a world-class
forestry regulatory system which can be trusted.

--------------
Table 1.0
Material Carbon released (kg/m3) Carbon stored (kg/m3)
Timber products 15 250
Steel 5,320 0
Concrete 120 0
Aluminium 22,000 0
Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corp, 1997. Figures indicated for guideline purposes only. The figures are a measure directly related to manufacture of material.
Timber is renewable, recyclable and sustainable.
--------------

==============

To which I would add that certification by the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) is most highly desirable. Especially if foreign sourced. More so if of tropical/sub-tropical sourced timbers.

http://www.fsc.org/

http://www.fscaustralia.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Stewardship_Council

The Boral brochure quoted above states that Boral Plywood is certified by The Australian Forestry Certification Scheme (AFCS). AFCS is a forest certification scheme developed to promote sustainable forestry management specifically for the Australian environment. AFCS is mutually acknowledged by the internationally recognised Program for the Endorsement of Forestry Certification (PEFC). The AFCS is the only forest certification scheme with an Australian Standard AS4708-2007.
http://www.forestrystandard.org.au/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_the_Endorsement_of_Forest_Certification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forests_of_Australia

----- Original Message -----

From:c.ruzer

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:03 PM

Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
> There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
>

Excellent - keep on pushing for that - more power to you! The "carbon-footprint of transport" certainly is a deep one. One answer, wooden sailing ships? I agree 'sustainably-sourced' claims can be "pious", or greenwash, so it's important that their credibility is tested.

From page 2 of the 36 page Boral Plywood Handbook brochure (July, 2009):
================
Australian plantation
and commercial forests
absorb an amount of
carbon equivalent to
taking 9 million cars off
the road each year.1
For further information on timber and its
sustainability credentials contact Boral Plywood and
ask for the Building a Sustainable Future brochure.
----------------

Timber and Sustainability

Excess carbon gas in the earth's atmosphere
contributes to the effects of climate change. Forestry
is one of the best carbon sinks and long-term carbon
reservoirs on the planet.

Unlike other building materials, wood can be harvested,
re-grown and re-harvested in an average person's lifetime.
Furthermore, finished wood products store carbon for
many decades, sometimes centuries.

Timber has one of the lowest embodied energy ratings
of all building products. Compared to other common
building materials, timber generates much less carbon
in the production process. Other building materials
such as steel and aluminium do not store carbon and
can contribute significant amounts of carbon to the
atmosphere during the manufacturing process.

Australian plantation and commercial forests absorb an
amount of carbon equivalent to taking 9 million cars off the
road each year.

Australian forests are protected by strict Federal and
State controls and regulations ensuring that there is a
healthy balance between long term conservation and
sustainable forestry management.

Only 6.3% of total Australian forests (9.4 million
hectares) are available for timber harvesting each year. Of
the forestry available for harvesting only 1% is harvested
each year.2

When specifying for a sustainable future and a smaller
carbon footprint, architects, builders and consumers
should consider the following recommendations

• Consider timber products wherever possible. Together
with good design, lightweight timber construction is
generally a better option in terms of embodied energy
and carbon storage.

• Keep in mind the impact of disposal. Of all building
products, timber presents the least number of
concerns when it comes to reuse or disposal.

• Choose certified, legal products.

• Specify Australian products. Australia has a world-class
forestry regulatory system which can be trusted.

--------------
Table 1.0
Material Carbon released (kg/m3) Carbon stored (kg/m3)
Timber products 15 250
Steel 5,320 0
Concrete 120 0
Aluminium 22,000 0
Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corp, 1997. Figures indicated for guideline purposes only. The figures are a measure directly related to manufacture of material.
Timber is renewable, recyclable and sustainable.
--------------

==============

To which I would add that certification by the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) is most highly desirable. Especially if foreign sourced. More so if of tropical/sub-tropical sourced timbers.

http://www.fsc.org/

http://www.fscaustralia.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Stewardship_Council

The Boral brochure quoted above states that Boral Plywood is certified by The Australian Forestry Certification Scheme (AFCS). AFCS is a forest certification scheme developed to promote sustainable forestry management specifically for the Australian environment. AFCS is mutually acknowledged by the internationally recognised Program for the Endorsement of Forestry Certification (PEFC). The AFCS is the only forest certification scheme with an Australian Standard AS4708-2007.
http://www.forestrystandard.org.au/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_the_Endorsement_of_Forest_Certification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forests_of_Australia

----- Original Message -----

From:Maximo

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:48 AM

Subject:RE: [bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

A friend of mine is a film documentary maker, in recent years, he was
working with original native people of South America. They have been around
here for thousands years... then the europeans "discover" América :)

To make a small canoe for fishing, they didn t "kill" a tree, the look for a
fallen one, with only a small axe in 9 hours one person make a boat. That s
the most "green" amateur boatbuilding I know :)

link to a photo
http://www.atriunfar.net/fotonoticias/Fotos/1275343213_culturahoy3.jpg

Máximo

----- Original Message -----

From:james fry

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:45 AM

Subject:Re: [bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

In a conversation I had with my dad forty years ago, he said to me "Son, this eco crap will be the new communism. It will be how the 'special people', you know, the people that 'know best', will tell the rest of us how to live. Dad was right.

'Carbon Footprint'? I don't know how that figure from Australian forests and plantation came about but a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.

As for our own 'sustainability', you speak of the NorthEast and I'm quite familiar with New Hampshire. Approximately 110 years ago the state was 75-80% cleared farm land. Today it's 80+% forested. So things can bounce back.

You mention that there's 'no way to go green structurally'; I don't know what you think you need, but I've built eight boats, everything from a large pirogue and an airboat, to a version of Mr Bolger's SneakEasy. All I've ever needed for the frame was Southern Yellow Pine. I've never had a problem with fastenings or anything else.

From:c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:03 PM
Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
> There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
>

Excellent - keep on pushing for that - more power to you! The "carbon-footprint of transport" certainly is a deep one. One answer, wooden sailing ships? I agree 'sustainably-sourced' claims can be "pious", or greenwash, so it's important that their credibility is tested.

From page 2 of the 36 page Boral Plywood Handbook brochure (July, 2009):
================
Australian plantation
and commercial forests
absorb an amount of
carbon equivalent to
taking 9 million cars off
the road each year.1
For further information on timber and its
sustainability credentials contact Boral Plywood and
ask for the Building a Sustainable Future brochure.
----------------

Timber and Sustainability

Excess carbon gas in the earth's atmosphere
contributes to the effects of climate change. Forestry
is one of the best carbon sinks and long-term carbon
reservoirs on the planet.

Unlike other building materials, wood can be harvested,
re-grown and re-harvested in an average person's lifetime.
Furthermore, finished wood products store carbon for
many decades, sometimes centuries.

Timber has one of the lowest embodied energy ratings
of all building products. Compared to other common
building materials, timber generates much less carbon
in the production process. Other building materials
such as steel and aluminium do not store carbon and
can contribute significant amounts of carbon to the
atmosphere during the manufacturing process.

Australian plantation and commercial forests absorb an
amount of carbon equivalent to taking 9 million cars off the
road each year.

Australian forests are protected by strict Federal and
State controls and regulations ensuring that there is a
healthy balance between long term conservation and
sustainable forestry management.

Only 6.3% of total Australian forests (9.4 million
hectares) are available for timber harvesting each year. Of
the forestry available for harvesting only 1% is harvested
each year.2

When specifying for a sustainable future and a smaller
carbon footprint, architects, builders and consumers
should consider the following recommendations

• Consider timber products wherever possible. Together
with good design, lightweight timber construction is
generally a better option in terms of embodied energy
and carbon storage.

• Keep in mind the impact of disposal. Of all building
products, timber presents the least number of
concerns when it comes to reuse or disposal.

• Choose certified, legal products.

• Specify Australian products. Australia has a world-class
forestry regulatory system which can be trusted.

--------------
Table 1.0
Material Carbon released (kg/m3) Carbon stored (kg/m3)
Timber products 15 250
Steel 5,320 0
Concrete 120 0
Aluminium 22,000 0
Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corp, 1997. Figures indicated for guideline purposes only. The figures are a measure directly related to manufacture of material.
Timber is renewable, recyclable and sustainable.
--------------

==============

To which I would add that certification by the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) is most highly desirable. Especially if foreign sourced. More so if of tropical/sub-tropical sourced timbers.

http://www.fsc.org/

http://www.fscaustralia.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Stewardship_Council

The Boral brochure quoted above states that Boral Plywood is certified by The Australian Forestry Certification Scheme (AFCS). AFCS is a forest certification scheme developed to promote sustainable forestry management specifically for the Australian environment. AFCS is mutually acknowledged by the internationally recognised Program for the Endorsement of Forestry Certification (PEFC). The AFCS is the only forest certification scheme with an Australian Standard AS4708-2007.
http://www.forestrystandard.org.au/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_the_Endorsement_of_Forest_Certification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forests_of_Australia

----- Original Message -----

From:Ed Drapela

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 8:40 AM

Subject:RE: [bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

If want to be “green” don’t build a boat.  If you have a lick of common sense and are worried about sustainability, plant a tree.  My place has 4 new Maples and 3 new Black Walnuts.  That’s hell of  lot more wood that I will use on my next boat.

Cheers,

Ed

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfNeal Sandidge
Sent:Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:35 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:RE: [bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

The apple doesn't fall far from the soon-to-be logged tree.

Neal

---

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
From:hunter02_2002@...
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 22:45:49 -0700
Subject: Re: [bolger]Screw Sustainability (and the rest of the green stuff) (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

In a conversation I had with my dad forty years ago, he said to me "Son, this eco crap will be the new communism. It will be how the 'special people', you know, the people that 'know best', will tell the rest of us how to live. Dad was right.

'Carbon Footprint'? I don't know how that figure from Australian forests and plantation came about but a study was done in New Jersey a while back that showed the Pine Barrens put more hydrocarbons into the air every week than all the trucks on the NJ Turnpike put out in a year.

As for our own 'sustainability', you speak of the NorthEast and I'm quite familiar with New Hampshire. Approximately 110 years ago the state was 75-80% cleared farm land. Today it's 80+% forested. So things can bounce back.

You mention that there's 'no way to go green structurally'; I don't know what you think you need, but I've built eight boats, everything from a large pirogue and an airboat, to a version of Mr Bolger's SneakEasy. All I've ever needed for the frame was Southern Yellow Pine. I've never had a problem with fastenings or anything else.

From:c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:03 PM
Subject:[bolger] Sustainability (was Re: Lightweight marine ply)

 

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
> There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
>

Excellent - keep on pushing for that - more power to you! The "carbon-footprint of transport" certainly is a deep one. One answer, wooden sailing ships? I agree 'sustainably-sourced' claims can be "pious", or greenwash, so it's important that their credibility is tested.

From page 2 of the 36 page Boral Plywood Handbook brochure (July, 2009):
================
Australian plantation
and commercial forests
absorb an amount of
carbon equivalent to
taking 9 million cars off
the road each year.1
For further information on timber and its
sustainability credentials contact Boral Plywood and
ask for the Building a Sustainable Future brochure.
----------------

Timber and Sustainability

Excess carbon gas in the earth's atmosphere
contributes to the effects of climate change. Forestry
is one of the best carbon sinks and long-term carbon
reservoirs on the planet.

Unlike other building materials, wood can be harvested,
re-grown and re-harvested in an average person's lifetime.
Furthermore, finished wood products store carbon for
many decades, sometimes centuries.

Timber has one of the lowest embodied energy ratings
of all building products. Compared to other common
building materials, timber generates much less carbon
in the production process. Other building materials
such as steel and aluminium do not store carbon and
can contribute significant amounts of carbon to the
atmosphere during the manufacturing process.

Australian plantation and commercial forests absorb an
amount of carbon equivalent to taking 9 million cars off the
road each year.

Australian forests are protected by strict Federal and
State controls and regulations ensuring that there is a
healthy balance between long term conservation and
sustainable forestry management.

Only 6.3% of total Australian forests (9.4 million
hectares) are available for timber harvesting each year. Of
the forestry available for harvesting only 1% is harvested
each year.2

When specifying for a sustainable future and a smaller
carbon footprint, architects, builders and consumers
should consider the following recommendations

• Consider timber products wherever possible. Together
with good design, lightweight timber construction is
generally a better option in terms of embodied energy
and carbon storage.

• Keep in mind the impact of disposal. Of all building
products, timber presents the least number of
concerns when it comes to reuse or disposal.

• Choose certified, legal products.

• Specify Australian products. Australia has a world-class
forestry regulatory system which can be trusted.

--------------
Table 1.0
Material Carbon released (kg/m3) Carbon stored (kg/m3)
Timber products 15 250
Steel 5,320 0
Concrete 120 0
Aluminium 22,000 0
Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corp, 1997. Figures indicated for guideline purposes only. The figures are a measure directly related to manufacture of material.
Timber is renewable, recyclable and sustainable.
--------------

==============

To which I would add that certification by the FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) is most highly desirable. Especially if foreign sourced. More so if of tropical/sub-tropical sourced timbers.

http://www.fsc.org/

http://www.fscaustralia.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Stewardship_Council

The Boral brochure quoted above states that Boral Plywood is certified by The Australian Forestry Certification Scheme (AFCS). AFCS is a forest certification scheme developed to promote sustainable forestry management specifically for the Australian environment. AFCS is mutually acknowledged by the internationally recognised Program for the Endorsement of Forestry Certification (PEFC). The AFCS is the only forest certification scheme with an Australian Standard AS4708-2007.
http://www.forestrystandard.org.au/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_the_Endorsement_of_Forest_Certification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forests_of_Australia

> There sure seems no way to go 'green' boat-structurally here in the North-Eastern US while slicing tropical woods - whatever the pious 'sustainably-sourced' claims plus the inevitable carbon-footprint of transport. Lucky for folks in the Northwest of the US.
> Eventually, New England will be doing its own regional marine-grade plywood again to avoid trans-continental ply-trucking/rail-voyage. There are decent tree-species hereabouts to do this with. But no remaining plywood-mill in the region for the moment, except for one in Quebec. But we'll get one yet.
>

From:james fry

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:12 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Lightweight marine ply

 

Eric, I don't know why you'd say epoxy doesn't seal out moisture. I used to live on the Jersey shore and about 25-27 years ago I used W.E.S.T. epoxy system to put together three small boats. When I was back up there 18 months ago, I tried looking them up. Two were still afloat and being used. I couldn't find the other people or what happened to that skiff. This stuff saturates the wood and the finish is like a fibre-glass resin. The only thing done to the boats still in use was to give them a W.E.S.T. coat every 6-8 years.

If epoxy didn't seal out moisture, as opposed to just water, it would be totaly useless as there are small voids and pockets of air even in the most solid wood.

Jim

From:Eric <eric14850@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 1:35 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Lightweight marine ply

 

A question. Regarding voids in marine and other plywood used in a boat's hull and decks, is there a problem caused by water vapor condensing in the voids in the cold climate of New England and cold West coast waters? Epoxy will not seal out moisture, only water. A high humidity interior would drive moisture toward the cold. It seems moisture would penetrate into the plywood and precipitate out if the dew point happened to be where the void was. Does anyone have an experience or real information about this possibility?

Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> On the SACPAS-3 project I used only domestically farm-grown Douglas Fir ply, well-understood, no pretty grain, fairly non-toxic, with a fully-known environmental-impact trail, quite affordable at $91.- for 1", well under $50 for 1/2" etc. from a local dealer. The 1/4 stuff kept 'smiling' a us with 'wild grins', but even on the flat roof its smirk soon turned into a 'stiff upper lip', level and straight. Despite 'Marine-Grade' stamp there are core-voids here and there, but at the load of epoxy and glass on this job, I'd expect little drama long-term, particularly with bottom and side double-skinned. On a government job staying all domestic, affordable and non-experimental is a safe bet. The project itself had enough hair-raising episodes anyway...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: c.ruzer
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:42 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Lightweight marine ply
>
>
>
>
>
> I wonder what part of Borneo or West Papua is being denuded in the supply of this stuff. I rather hope none, save the whale and all, but as it seems to be China sourced I won't be holding my breath that the "light weight" is due to some SE Asian plantaion grown Paulonia spp or somesuch. http://www.goldcorelight.com/specifications.htm - that BS1088 standard is beyond meaningless in the Australian context. Is the weight all that less than Oz plantation grown hoop marine plywood anyway (38% seems a stretch)? Such Oz marine plywood conforms to the superior and meaningfull AS/NZS2272, and is as likely manufactured to F14, and may carry a 40 year bond warranty. I'd guess that the Goldcore Light interior veneers should never be exposed to water, never, and that may be a big ask in a small boat. It's not cheap. Lightness up high is something, but I don't understand how the strength can be had by increasing thickness by one millimetre. It seems that a jump to the next standard size, so from 6mm to 9mm etc, is mandated. That, or increased supporting frame and stiffening members, and either would seem to cancel the Goldcore alleged 38% weight advantage - and cost more.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <a.c.l.yen@> wrote:
> >
> > My Chebacco 25 hull is finally up the right way. I had a party for friends, relatives and the wooden boat club, gave everyone a rope, or piece of wood and we had it off it's building frame right way up on its trailer in 40 minutes. I'll post some photos when I get time.
> >
> > Now I have to get serious about decks, cockpits, carlins, beams, frames etc. In shopping for suitable plywood I have come across "lightweight marine ply" (seewww.goldcorelight.com). I have obtained a sample and am impressed with the quality (no voids, nice face veneers)and the lightness of the product. It feels not much heavier than balsa wood yet gives the impression of being plenty strong enough.
> >
> > The strength grade is F7 - which means a designed working stress of 7MPa. I did a bit of research that suggests that this is not as strong as "standard" ply but that adding a mm to the thickness will compensate for the lower strength:
> >
> > http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tbia/view_article.asp?articleID=133
> >
> > It isn't cheap at A$71 for 6mm, A$94 for 9mm and A$112 for 12mm but these prices are comparable with good Gaboon marine ply.
> >
> > Has anyone used it or have opinions about lightweight ply for "above waterline". I figure that lighter sheets are easier to handle and will reduce the weight of the boat by some 50kg or more.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >http://sites.google.com/site/warrandytewoodenboat
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> On the SACPAS-3 project I used only domestically farm-grown Douglas Fir ply, well-understood, no pretty grain, fairly non-toxic, with a fully-known environmental-impact trail, quite affordable at $91.- for 1", well under $50 for 1/2" etc. from a local dealer. The 1/4 stuff kept 'smiling' a us with 'wild grins', but even on the flat roof its smirk soon turned into a 'stiff upper lip', level and straight. Despite 'Marine-Grade' stamp there are core-voids here and there, but at the load of epoxy and glass on this job, I'd expect little drama long-term, particularly with bottom and side double-skinned. On a government job staying all domestic, affordable and non-experimental is a safe bet. The project itself had enough hair-raising episodes anyway...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: c.ruzer
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:42 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Lightweight marine ply
>
>
>
>
>
> I wonder what part of Borneo or West Papua is being denuded in the supply of this stuff. I rather hope none, save the whale and all, but as it seems to be China sourced I won't be holding my breath that the "light weight" is due to some SE Asian plantaion grown Paulonia spp or somesuch.http://www.goldcorelight.com/specifications.htm- that BS1088 standard is beyond meaningless in the Australian context. Is the weight all that less than Oz plantation grown hoop marine plywood anyway (38% seems a stretch)? Such Oz marine plywood conforms to the superior and meaningfull AS/NZS2272, and is as likely manufactured to F14, and may carry a 40 year bond warranty. I'd guess that the Goldcore Light interior veneers should never be exposed to water, never, and that may be a big ask in a small boat. It's not cheap. Lightness up high is something, but I don't understand how the strength can be had by increasing thickness by one millimetre. It seems that a jump to the next standard size, so from 6mm to 9mm etc, is mandated. That, or increased supporting frame and stiffening members, and either would seem to cancel the Goldcore alleged 38% weight advantage - and cost more.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <a.c.l.yen@> wrote:
> >
> > My Chebacco 25 hull is finally up the right way. I had a party for friends, relatives and the wooden boat club, gave everyone a rope, or piece of wood and we had it off it's building frame right way up on its trailer in 40 minutes. I'll post some photos when I get time.
> >
> > Now I have to get serious about decks, cockpits, carlins, beams, frames etc. In shopping for suitable plywood I have come across "lightweight marine ply" (see www.goldcorelight.com). I have obtained a sample and am impressed with the quality (no voids, nice face veneers)and the lightness of the product. It feels not much heavier than balsa wood yet gives the impression of being plenty strong enough.
> >
> > The strength grade is F7 - which means a designed working stress of 7MPa. I did a bit of research that suggests that this is not as strong as "standard" ply but that adding a mm to the thickness will compensate for the lower strength:
> >
> >http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tbia/view_article.asp?articleID=133
> >
> > It isn't cheap at A$71 for 6mm, A$94 for 9mm and A$112 for 12mm but these prices are comparable with good Gaboon marine ply.
> >
> > Has anyone used it or have opinions about lightweight ply for "above waterline". I figure that lighter sheets are easier to handle and will reduce the weight of the boat by some 50kg or more.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >http://sites.google.com/site/warrandytewoodenboat
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From:c.ruzer

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:42 AM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Lightweight marine ply

 

I wonder what part of Borneo or West Papua is being denuded in the supply of this stuff. I rather hope none, save the whale and all, but as it seems to be China sourced I won't be holding my breath that the "light weight" is due to some SE Asian plantaion grown Paulonia spp or somesuch.http://www.goldcorelight.com/specifications.htm- that BS1088 standard is beyond meaningless in the Australian context. Is the weight all that less than Oz plantation grown hoop marine plywood anyway (38% seems a stretch)? Such Oz marine plywood conforms to the superior and meaningfull AS/NZS2272, and is as likely manufactured to F14, and may carry a 40 year bond warranty. I'd guess that the Goldcore Light interior veneers should never be exposed to water, never, and that may be a big ask in a small boat. It's not cheap. Lightness up high is something, but I don't understand how the strength can be had by increasing thickness by one millimetre. It seems that a jump to the next standard size, so from 6mm to 9mm etc, is mandated. That, or increased supporting frame and stiffening members, and either would seem to cancel the Goldcore alleged 38% weight advantage - and cost more.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <a.c.l.yen@...> wrote:
>
> My Chebacco 25 hull is finally up the right way. I had a party for friends, relatives and the wooden boat club, gave everyone a rope, or piece of wood and we had it off it's building frame right way up on its trailer in 40 minutes. I'll post some photos when I get time.
>
> Now I have to get serious about decks, cockpits, carlins, beams, frames etc. In shopping for suitable plywood I have come across "lightweight marine ply" (see www.goldcorelight.com). I have obtained a sample and am impressed with the quality (no voids, nice face veneers)and the lightness of the product. It feels not much heavier than balsa wood yet gives the impression of being plenty strong enough.
>
> The strength grade is F7 - which means a designed working stress of 7MPa. I did a bit of research that suggests that this is not as strong as "standard" ply but that adding a mm to the thickness will compensate for the lower strength:
>
>http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tbia/view_article.asp?articleID=133
>
> It isn't cheap at A$71 for 6mm, A$94 for 9mm and A$112 for 12mm but these prices are comparable with good Gaboon marine ply.
>
> Has anyone used it or have opinions about lightweight ply for "above waterline". I figure that lighter sheets are easier to handle and will reduce the weight of the boat by some 50kg or more.
>
> Andrew
>
>http://sites.google.com/site/warrandytewoodenboat
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <a.c.l.yen@...> wrote:
>
> My Chebacco 25 hull is finally up the right way. I had a party for friends, relatives and the wooden boat club, gave everyone a rope, or piece of wood and we had it off it's building frame right way up on its trailer in 40 minutes. I'll post some photos when I get time.
>
> Now I have to get serious about decks, cockpits, carlins, beams, frames etc. In shopping for suitable plywood I have come across "lightweight marine ply" (see www.goldcorelight.com). I have obtained a sample and am impressed with the quality (no voids, nice face veneers)and the lightness of the product. It feels not much heavier than balsa wood yet gives the impression of being plenty strong enough.
>
> The strength grade is F7 - which means a designed working stress of 7MPa. I did a bit of research that suggests that this is not as strong as "standard" ply but that adding a mm to the thickness will compensate for the lower strength:
>
>http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tbia/view_article.asp?articleID=133
>
> It isn't cheap at A$71 for 6mm, A$94 for 9mm and A$112 for 12mm but these prices are comparable with good Gaboon marine ply.
>
> Has anyone used it or have opinions about lightweight ply for "above waterline". I figure that lighter sheets are easier to handle and will reduce the weight of the boat by some 50kg or more.
>
> Andrew
>
>http://sites.google.com/site/warrandytewoodenboat
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <a.c.l.yen@...> wrote:
>
> My Chebacco 25 hull is finally up the right way. I had a party for friends, relatives and the wooden boat club, gave everyone a rope, or piece of wood and we had it off it's building frame right way up on its trailer in 40 minutes. I'll post some photos when I get time.
>
> Now I have to get serious about decks, cockpits, carlins, beams, frames etc. In shopping for suitable plywood I have come across "lightweight marine ply" (see www.goldcorelight.com). I have obtained a sample and am impressed with the quality (no voids, nice face veneers)and the lightness of the product. It feels not much heavier than balsa wood yet gives the impression of being plenty strong enough.
>
> The strength grade is F7 - which means a designed working stress of 7MPa. I did a bit of research that suggests that this is not as strong as "standard" ply but that adding a mm to the thickness will compensate for the lower strength:
>
>http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tbia/view_article.asp?articleID=133
>
> It isn't cheap at A$71 for 6mm, A$94 for 9mm and A$112 for 12mm but these prices are comparable with good Gaboon marine ply.
>
> Has anyone used it or have opinions about lightweight ply for "above waterline". I figure that lighter sheets are easier to handle and will reduce the weight of the boat by some 50kg or more.
>
> Andrew
>
>http://sites.google.com/site/warrandytewoodenboat
>