Re: [bolger] Inboard idea... [1 Attachment]
On 05/09/2012 03:27 PM, Wayne Gilham wrote:Glen-L has a plan for a homemade FNR setup that uses a pillowblock to support the shaft.Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is
right up their alley. Check their website
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
It may give you an idea to start from.
Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
There used to be an old long-skinny round-bilge boat on-the-beach here in Pacific NW (Longbranch, WA
as I remember) with a heavy old striaght-six waaaaaay forward under the foredeck, perhaps to get a
shallower shaft-exit angle... never saw it running, but I bet it really threw an arc of spray off
that rather immersed bow....
Wayne Gilham
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gilham
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 1:27 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Inboard idea... [1 Attachment]
[Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]
Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is
right up their alley. Check their website
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
as I remember) with a heavy old striaght-six waaaaaay forward under the foredeck, perhaps to get a
shallower shaft-exit angle... never saw it running, but I bet it really threw an arc of spray off
that rather immersed bow....
Wayne Gilham
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gilham
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 1:27 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Inboard idea... [1 Attachment]
[Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]
Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is
right up their alley. Check their website
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
Barr Marine was the big player in my youth. They
still exist. It appears they are concentrated on V-8, however.
V/R
Chris
V/R
Chris
On 5/9/2012 4:27 PM, Wayne Gilham wrote:<*>[Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below] Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is right up their alley. Check their website Regards, Wayne Gilham <*>Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham: <*> 1 of 1 File(s)http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/attachments/folder/283075546/item/list<*> winmail.dat ------------------------------------ Bolger rules!!! - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please! - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/join(Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:bolger-digest@yahoogroups.combolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Glen-L may have resources how to adapt an automobile engine -- seems that "make-do" approach is
right up their alley. Check their website
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
right up their alley. Check their website
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
In the very-long-ago days of direct-drive marine engines of pleasureboat size -- like the old
"one-lungers" that typically turned 500 to max 800 rpm -- and were often "direct-reversing",
especially if a two-stroke -- the engine itself had a thrust bearing on the forward end of the
crankshaft (transmitting thrust from crankshaft to engine-block) ... I've taken a few of these old
engines apart, and it's often a roller thrust bearing even way back in the early 1900's -- or at
least some mighty large-diameter thrust-washers.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Offarna@...
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...
I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
"one-lungers" that typically turned 500 to max 800 rpm -- and were often "direct-reversing",
especially if a two-stroke -- the engine itself had a thrust bearing on the forward end of the
crankshaft (transmitting thrust from crankshaft to engine-block) ... I've taken a few of these old
engines apart, and it's often a roller thrust bearing even way back in the early 1900's -- or at
least some mighty large-diameter thrust-washers.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Offarna@...
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...
I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
It might be worth talking to the folks who do auto engine conversions for homebuilt aircraft. Other than weight, the constraints and requirements are similar. However, the homebuilt folks have an excuse for doing this in the fact that certified aircraft piston engines are still late 50s designs. That excuse does not, however, hold for marine piston engines, which have largely benefited from the technological advances in car engines.
The only way I can imagine this making any sense at all is if you either really enjoy this kind of challenge or if you have a donor car on hand and much more time than money.
-p
The only way I can imagine this making any sense at all is if you either really enjoy this kind of challenge or if you have a donor car on hand and much more time than money.
-p
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Wayne Gilham<wgilham@...>wrote:<*>[Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]
There already exists a well-engineered system (installed in some manufactured boats - a 1995 Morgan
45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a typical "self-aligning" pillow-block
thrust-bearing firmly attached to the hull at forward end of prop-shaft, followed by a
constant-velocity "cardan-shaft" to allow the engine to be mounted very softly (extremely "loose"
rubber mounts") specifically to avoid transfer of engine-vibrations into the hull -- DOES reduce
noise significantly.
But if you thought marine transmissions were expensive.....
see:http://www.aquadrive.com/system.html
These are usually installed to a marine engine with marine transmission (of course then the marine
transmission's thrust bearing is redundant) -- but note that thereby, there IS still in the
driveline, the typical "drive-plate" (with springs) between engine and marine transmission, which is
there to absorb the high-speed torque-vibration of each cylinder's firing, to protect (yes) the
transmission (but also) the shafting and prop -- rumor has it that without such torsion flexibility,
the mechanicals beyond the engine can self-destruct.
I challenge you to reverse-engineer the concept using industrial-supplyhouse pillow-block thrust
bearing, and perhaps junkyard constant-velocity shafting from a front-wheel-drive car... as far as
THAT goes, I wonder if the wheel's bearing that such front-wheel drive shafting "ends" at, would be
sufficient as the thrust-bearing? just mount the entire brake-carrier casting right to a bulkhead
firmly installed where the shaft comes thru the bottom of the boat..... oops, THAT car-system is
operating at considerably lower rpm, I suspect...
BUT if your initial reverse-engineered design has "teething problems" like any invention... it
becomes a question of "what's your time worth"? it's worth noting that Sir James Dyson built 5,127
fully functioning prototypes of his bagless vacuum-cleaner, before he finally came up with the first
model suitable for marketing to the masses.
Might be far more re-assuring to just bite the financial bullet and find a proven marine
transmission with integral thrust bearing, used and/or rebuilt. There has been nearly a hundred
years by now of expensive engineering and manufacturing experience.... Out here on the Salish-Sea
end of Left Coast (Pacific NW) the true expert in marine transmissions is Mike Vogt of Harbor Marine
in Everett, WA.... no I don't think he would take kindly to long discussions on "re-inventing" the
marine transmission, but he's the go-to guy for supply of new/"take-out"/used marine transmissions,
as well as parts for every known type -- and, of course, in-house repair.
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Offarna@...
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...
I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
<*>Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham:
<*> 1 of 1 File(s)http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/attachments/folder/1930008884/item/list
<*> winmail.dat
------------------------------------
Bolger rules!!!
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AHA! yep, the AquaDrive system has its own design of torsional-vibration dampener (a.k.a.
"driveplate") -- so even in this system, they have found it necessary to isolate down-stream
components from the engine's firing impulses....
see bottom component on this sheet:http://www.aquadrive.com/models.html
Wayne Gilham
(please ignore the attachment - there's nothing in it -- can't figure out how to stop my Outlook
from attaching that null-file)
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gilham
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 9:09 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Inboard idea... (thrust bearing?) [1 Attachment]
[Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]
There already exists a well-engineered system (installed in some manufactured boats - a 1995 Morgan
45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a typical "self-aligning" pillow-block
thrust-bearing firmly attached to the hull at forward end of prop-shaft, followed by a
constant-velocity "cardan-shaft" to allow the engine to be mounted very softly (extremely "loose"
rubber mounts") specifically to avoid transfer of engine-vibrations into the hull -- DOES reduce
noise significantly.
But if you thought marine transmissions were expensive.....
see:http://www.aquadrive.com/system.html
These are usually installed to a marine engine with marine transmission (of course then the marine
transmission's thrust bearing is redundant) -- but note that thereby, there IS still in the
driveline, the typical "drive-plate" (with springs) between engine and marine transmission, which is
there to absorb the high-speed torque-vibration of each cylinder's firing, to protect (yes) the
transmission (but also) the shafting and prop -- rumor has it that without such torsion flexibility,
the mechanicals beyond the engine can self-destruct.
I challenge you to reverse-engineer the concept using industrial-supplyhouse pillow-block thrust
bearing, and perhaps junkyard constant-velocity shafting from a front-wheel-drive car... as far as
THAT goes, I wonder if the wheel's bearing that such front-wheel drive shafting "ends" at, would be
sufficient as the thrust-bearing? just mount the entire brake-carrier casting right to a bulkhead
firmly installed where the shaft comes thru the bottom of the boat..... oops, THAT car-system is
operating at considerably lower rpm, I suspect...
BUT if your initial reverse-engineered design has "teething problems" like any invention... it
becomes a question of "what's your time worth"? it's worth noting that Sir James Dyson built 5,127
fully functioning prototypes of his bagless vacuum-cleaner, before he finally came up with the first
model suitable for marketing to the masses.
Might be far more re-assuring to just bite the financial bullet and find a proven marine
transmission with integral thrust bearing, used and/or rebuilt. There has been nearly a hundred
years by now of expensive engineering and manufacturing experience.... Out here on the Salish-Sea
end of Left Coast (Pacific NW) the true expert in marine transmissions is Mike Vogt of Harbor Marine
in Everett, WA.... no I don't think he would take kindly to long discussions on "re-inventing" the
marine transmission, but he's the go-to guy for supply of new/"take-out"/used marine transmissions,
as well as parts for every known type -- and, of course, in-house repair.
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Offarna@...<mailto:farna%40att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...
I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
"driveplate") -- so even in this system, they have found it necessary to isolate down-stream
components from the engine's firing impulses....
see bottom component on this sheet:http://www.aquadrive.com/models.html
Wayne Gilham
(please ignore the attachment - there's nothing in it -- can't figure out how to stop my Outlook
from attaching that null-file)
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Gilham
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 9:09 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Inboard idea... (thrust bearing?) [1 Attachment]
[Attachment(s) from Wayne Gilham included below]
There already exists a well-engineered system (installed in some manufactured boats - a 1995 Morgan
45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a typical "self-aligning" pillow-block
thrust-bearing firmly attached to the hull at forward end of prop-shaft, followed by a
constant-velocity "cardan-shaft" to allow the engine to be mounted very softly (extremely "loose"
rubber mounts") specifically to avoid transfer of engine-vibrations into the hull -- DOES reduce
noise significantly.
But if you thought marine transmissions were expensive.....
see:http://www.aquadrive.com/system.html
These are usually installed to a marine engine with marine transmission (of course then the marine
transmission's thrust bearing is redundant) -- but note that thereby, there IS still in the
driveline, the typical "drive-plate" (with springs) between engine and marine transmission, which is
there to absorb the high-speed torque-vibration of each cylinder's firing, to protect (yes) the
transmission (but also) the shafting and prop -- rumor has it that without such torsion flexibility,
the mechanicals beyond the engine can self-destruct.
I challenge you to reverse-engineer the concept using industrial-supplyhouse pillow-block thrust
bearing, and perhaps junkyard constant-velocity shafting from a front-wheel-drive car... as far as
THAT goes, I wonder if the wheel's bearing that such front-wheel drive shafting "ends" at, would be
sufficient as the thrust-bearing? just mount the entire brake-carrier casting right to a bulkhead
firmly installed where the shaft comes thru the bottom of the boat..... oops, THAT car-system is
operating at considerably lower rpm, I suspect...
BUT if your initial reverse-engineered design has "teething problems" like any invention... it
becomes a question of "what's your time worth"? it's worth noting that Sir James Dyson built 5,127
fully functioning prototypes of his bagless vacuum-cleaner, before he finally came up with the first
model suitable for marketing to the masses.
Might be far more re-assuring to just bite the financial bullet and find a proven marine
transmission with integral thrust bearing, used and/or rebuilt. There has been nearly a hundred
years by now of expensive engineering and manufacturing experience.... Out here on the Salish-Sea
end of Left Coast (Pacific NW) the true expert in marine transmissions is Mike Vogt of Harbor Marine
in Everett, WA.... no I don't think he would take kindly to long discussions on "re-inventing" the
marine transmission, but he's the go-to guy for supply of new/"take-out"/used marine transmissions,
as well as parts for every known type -- and, of course, in-house repair.
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Offarna@...<mailto:farna%40att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...
I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
There already exists a well-engineered system (installed in some manufactured boats - a 1995 Morgan
45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a typical "self-aligning" pillow-block
thrust-bearing firmly attached to the hull at forward end of prop-shaft, followed by a
constant-velocity "cardan-shaft" to allow the engine to be mounted very softly (extremely "loose"
rubber mounts") specifically to avoid transfer of engine-vibrations into the hull -- DOES reduce
noise significantly.
But if you thought marine transmissions were expensive.....
see:http://www.aquadrive.com/system.html
These are usually installed to a marine engine with marine transmission (of course then the marine
transmission's thrust bearing is redundant) -- but note that thereby, there IS still in the
driveline, the typical "drive-plate" (with springs) between engine and marine transmission, which is
there to absorb the high-speed torque-vibration of each cylinder's firing, to protect (yes) the
transmission (but also) the shafting and prop -- rumor has it that without such torsion flexibility,
the mechanicals beyond the engine can self-destruct.
I challenge you to reverse-engineer the concept using industrial-supplyhouse pillow-block thrust
bearing, and perhaps junkyard constant-velocity shafting from a front-wheel-drive car... as far as
THAT goes, I wonder if the wheel's bearing that such front-wheel drive shafting "ends" at, would be
sufficient as the thrust-bearing? just mount the entire brake-carrier casting right to a bulkhead
firmly installed where the shaft comes thru the bottom of the boat..... oops, THAT car-system is
operating at considerably lower rpm, I suspect...
BUT if your initial reverse-engineered design has "teething problems" like any invention... it
becomes a question of "what's your time worth"? it's worth noting that Sir James Dyson built 5,127
fully functioning prototypes of his bagless vacuum-cleaner, before he finally came up with the first
model suitable for marketing to the masses.
Might be far more re-assuring to just bite the financial bullet and find a proven marine
transmission with integral thrust bearing, used and/or rebuilt. There has been nearly a hundred
years by now of expensive engineering and manufacturing experience.... Out here on the Salish-Sea
end of Left Coast (Pacific NW) the true expert in marine transmissions is Mike Vogt of Harbor Marine
in Everett, WA.... no I don't think he would take kindly to long discussions on "re-inventing" the
marine transmission, but he's the go-to guy for supply of new/"take-out"/used marine transmissions,
as well as parts for every known type -- and, of course, in-house repair.
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Offarna@...
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...
I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
45 sailboat we have listed includes this) that uses a typical "self-aligning" pillow-block
thrust-bearing firmly attached to the hull at forward end of prop-shaft, followed by a
constant-velocity "cardan-shaft" to allow the engine to be mounted very softly (extremely "loose"
rubber mounts") specifically to avoid transfer of engine-vibrations into the hull -- DOES reduce
noise significantly.
But if you thought marine transmissions were expensive.....
see:http://www.aquadrive.com/system.html
These are usually installed to a marine engine with marine transmission (of course then the marine
transmission's thrust bearing is redundant) -- but note that thereby, there IS still in the
driveline, the typical "drive-plate" (with springs) between engine and marine transmission, which is
there to absorb the high-speed torque-vibration of each cylinder's firing, to protect (yes) the
transmission (but also) the shafting and prop -- rumor has it that without such torsion flexibility,
the mechanicals beyond the engine can self-destruct.
I challenge you to reverse-engineer the concept using industrial-supplyhouse pillow-block thrust
bearing, and perhaps junkyard constant-velocity shafting from a front-wheel-drive car... as far as
THAT goes, I wonder if the wheel's bearing that such front-wheel drive shafting "ends" at, would be
sufficient as the thrust-bearing? just mount the entire brake-carrier casting right to a bulkhead
firmly installed where the shaft comes thru the bottom of the boat..... oops, THAT car-system is
operating at considerably lower rpm, I suspect...
BUT if your initial reverse-engineered design has "teething problems" like any invention... it
becomes a question of "what's your time worth"? it's worth noting that Sir James Dyson built 5,127
fully functioning prototypes of his bagless vacuum-cleaner, before he finally came up with the first
model suitable for marketing to the masses.
Might be far more re-assuring to just bite the financial bullet and find a proven marine
transmission with integral thrust bearing, used and/or rebuilt. There has been nearly a hundred
years by now of expensive engineering and manufacturing experience.... Out here on the Salish-Sea
end of Left Coast (Pacific NW) the true expert in marine transmissions is Mike Vogt of Harbor Marine
in Everett, WA.... no I don't think he would take kindly to long discussions on "re-inventing" the
marine transmission, but he's the go-to guy for supply of new/"take-out"/used marine transmissions,
as well as parts for every known type -- and, of course, in-house repair.
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Offarna@...
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:50 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Inboard idea...
I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull
yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple
with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp
Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft
inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with
automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in
first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the
props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the
throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual
three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand
clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the
2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and
neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have
used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single
universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip
coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it
just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken
through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow
block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
Purpose-built marine transmissions, like Velvet
Drive,have integral thrust bearings.
V/R
Chris
V/R
Chris
On 05/09/2012 09:49 AM,farna@...wrote:What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made.
probably the ridiculous cost of boat transmissions. amazing what they want for something with only one forward and one reverse gear.
Tom
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On May 9, 2012, at 7:09 AM, <philbolger@...> wrote:
=What was the point again ?----- Original Message -----From:farna@...Sent:Wednesday, May 09, 2012 9:49 AMSubject:[bolger] Inboard idea...I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the 2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
What was the point again ?
----- Original Message -----From:farna@...Sent:Wednesday, May 09, 2012 9:49 AMSubject:[bolger] Inboard idea...I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the 2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
I'm eventually going to build an inboard with the motor up near the front. Haven't settled on a hull yet, but have been thinking on the motor. It will be an automotive conversion. I've seen a couple with Honda car engines, and want something small similar to that, but I may have access to a 120 hp Mercruiser (Cold Chevy 140 cubic inch four). Don't want the in/out arrangement, straight shaft inboard.
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the 2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...
I've seen two older conversions that used an automotive transmission. One used twin sixes with automatic transmissions. In that one one trans was run in reverse all the time, the other always in first, so props were turned opposite each other. Gear reductions were close in those gears -- the props were custom made to make up the difference. Owner said that cruising at about 25 knots the throttles were perfectly aligned, slightly out at lower speeds to balance. The other used a manual three speed trans with a single engine. The engine was just behind the driver's seat and had a hand clutch arrangement with two cables. The cable were connected one to the first/reverse and one to the 2nd/3rd shift levers. They were adjusted so that they would only shift neutral/revers and neutral/3rd (a manual stop to prevent 1st and 2nd operation might have been in place... he may have used 2nd instead of 3rd, as 3rd is 1:1).
What I don't know is how the thrust arrangement was made. I believe the manual trans used a single universal joint at the trans, not sure about the autos, though they had to have some type of slip coupling. Shouldn't there be something on the shaft itself to handle thrust of the prop, or is it just right up the shaft into the transmission? Cars don't have anything, but the thrust is taken through the suspension, not the drive shaft/transmission/engine. I suppose I could use a pillow block bearing near the trans that has a thrust bearing in it...