Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" <mkriley48@...> wrote:
>
> 1http://www.derecktor.com/index.html
> he built 2 12 meter yachts and numerous custom boats, catered to the Herishoff crowd. I started my marine career in the fort lauderdale yard and worked on lots of his boats and others some were 20 years old at the time with no problems. He did not invent plywood decks on metal boats, I would refer you to one of the numerous metal boat building boat books available.
>
>
> 2 the bottom will be at water temp. which obviously be above freezing.
> metal boats are never insulated in the bilge. Condensation is worst higher up in the boat due to heat stratification. Top sides and cabin need insulated no matter what the material. steel seems to be the boat material of choice for sailers in the high latitudes.
> mike

> In a cruiser it would seem desirable to consider insulation against
> both too much and not enough heat for living aboard.

> Steel/Alu craft structures are impressive. Insulating them remains
> a challenge as glueing in bits and pieces of foam or spraying
> everything are serious challenges in a range of ways.

> Our almost completely unpublished series of 4-season steel-cruisers
> #642, #644, #645 is a very rigorous treatment on the matter, so
> dense in fact, we deemed it necessary to hold off on throwing them
> out in MAIB for instance and wait for a book-format... whenever
> that project is ready for primetime ?! Not very useful to mention
> this here except to refer to what we thought/think was the 'end-
> state' of the development of the all-steel live-aboard sailing
> cruiser, ranging from approx. 40,000 - 63,000lbs in displacement
> 48-55' length, 12-17' beam and between 2'4" and 3' of draft, incl.
> an arctic survival machine.

> They'll be 'viewable' eventually...

> In the meantime, the 'hybrid' approach of a plywood hull, heavily
> insulatable with closed-cell foam, and with steel-ballast.armor of
> at least a fair amount of the belly is the next somewhat less
> extreme option - likely a solid 'medium-duty' solution applicable
> for most who won't plan on cruising into ice.
> Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-
> long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating
> everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid',
> assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth'
> around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank'
> asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.

> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: c.ruzer
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 6:52 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

> A 1/2" steel mast? That'd make a good bridge pile-on, wouldn't it. And people crossing bridges would look down more often.
>
> Warmish waters there, me too. Simple mild steel fabrication and modern structural/civil engineering coatings

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pee <tompee77@...> wrote:
>
> The epoxy chosen would have to be the more flexible type to accomodate movement, Momentive, the #1 producer of epoxy has many different formulations for different purposes.  Thats why strips of steel would work as the movement is the steel would be taken up by say .125 to .250 spacing filled in with epoxy working the same way as caulking. The epoxy would completely encapsulate the steel and wood adherend.  Think no bolts or screws.
>
> It would then truly become a composite with all three materials working together to form a superior structure.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "philbolger@..." <philbolger@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 12:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
> You may need to re-think the idea on a number of
> points.
> If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen
> structurally.
> Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I
> believe.
> How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel
> below the seam ?
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> >From: mkriley48
> >To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM
> >Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >
> >Â
> >In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
> >that destroys many plywood boats. What do you
> think Suzanne?
> >this should be able to be done reasonably by a small
> commercial welding shop.
> >mike
> >
> >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >>
> >> You've got to match the
> steel-ballast weight.
> >> Then you've got to decide how much of her
> under-water body you'd want to cover.
> >> Then it is up to running
> square-footage.
> >> Then one would decide on local thickness.
> >>
> Etc.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Mike Allison
> >>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re:
> Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 05/14/2012
> 06:17 AM, philbolger@ wrote:
> >>
> >> Copper plate is even more
> expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint
> her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate
> 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth'
> around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that
> is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
> >>
> >> Susanne
> Altenburger, PB&F
> >>
> >> How thin or thick would you say the
> copper plate should be.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Allison...
> (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
> >>
> >
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From:Tom Pee

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:17 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

The epoxy chosen would have to be the more flexible type to accomodate movement, Momentive, the #1 producer of epoxy has many different formulations for different purposes.  Thats why strips of steel would work as the movement is the steel would be taken up by say .125 to .250 spacing filled in with epoxy working the same way as caulking. The epoxy would completely encapsulate the steel and wood adherend.  Think no bolts or screws.

It would then truly become a composite with all three materials working together to form a superior structure.

From:"philbolger@..." <philbolger@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, May 14, 2012 12:45 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

You may need to re-think the idea on a number of points.
If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen structurally.
Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I believe.
How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel below the seam ?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----

From:mkriley48

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> Then it is up to running square-footage.
> Then one would decide on local thickness.
> Etc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Allison
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@... wrote:
>
> Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
>
>
>
> Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
>

----- Original Message -----

From:Tom Pee

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:03 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

Exactly how where the steel plates attached to Anemone?

From:"philbolger@..." <philbolger@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, May 14, 2012 3:20 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

All of the external ballast system are to be individual cuts of around 4'x4' on these designs to have no expansion/contraction issues.  This makes them easier to move around, bring to the job-site, install with moderate jacking hardware if done with hull right-side up already, and allows selective replacement in case of point damage or heavy corrosion on one but not other pieces. 

We once ran numbers on a 30-foot long 'grounding-shoe' and found the movement to be 6.7mm i.e. well over 1/4" between 35-degree F Glacier Bay waters and sitting in a southern California boat-yard or traveling the Inter Highway System in summer.  Add some more movement of you store her in Wisconsin at -20F during the Great Lakes Tour...That would 'start' any through-fasteners to at least leak - even if drowned in 3M-5200.  Or so our reasoning...

ANEMONE has served as a year-round liveaboard in Quebec, quite a climate of extremes... 

Ergo the opposite of welding pieces together into larger ones.

Copper may move more, one suspects.  But at 4x4' still no seriously measurable issue.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

----- Original Message -----

From:ANDREW AIREY

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Monday, May 14, 2012 2:56 PM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

You should shop around for more quotes.Most fab shops of any size should be able to handle the rolling,particularly if they have overhead craneage,although you could always use shorter plates and weld the sections together if necessary.Now if you were wanting to joggle 1/2" plate at short centres to create an overlap as I used to have done for armoured face conveyor deck plates,that needs some serious pressures.How about using 1/4" plate,which ought to provide enough protection and be easier to bend,and make up the balance with ballast. British canal narrowboats(7' beam) are routinely built with 1/2" plate bottoms but these are generally flat bottomed except possibly for a rise at the bows.However the sides( 1/4"plate) are generally pulled into place with comealongs to create the curves.

cheers

Andy Airey

----- Original Message -----

From:Tom Pee

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Thursday, May 17, 2012 10:52 AM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

Have thought of steel bottom plating bottom of hulls for long time and no satisfactory solution yet because of corrosion concerns ,hull penetrations, and the junction between wood &steel.  Perhaps long strips of say 1/2" by 3"  x 20'-0" steel epoxy glued might work as long as the epoxy alone did all the bonding without and screws or bolts. DK.

 

If trying to just get ballast down low in sharpies, 20' lengths of rebar epoied down might work and at the same time probably really reinforce it longitudinal strength.  If using say 5/8" which is #5 it weighs 1lb. per ft.

 

From:SSK <machinist@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:23 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

“
In light of the projected and thus apparently 'acceptable' movement of the long shoe, incl. along those many fasteners, you'll accept uncontrolled corrosion between hull and steel and all those fasteners ? As we know from under-prtotected light steel hulls, 1/8" steel won't take long.

Since the fasteners need to be counter-sunk to not be ground-off/knocked-off in routine thin-water pursuits, would you elongate those fastening-geometries as well ?

What are we gaining by doing things differently ?

Taking a <4x4' template off the given as-built bottom-curvature if not even actual 'foot-print' and giving each piece a modest bend seems quite undramatic versus just controlling the welding process of that long piece to not have it 'walk' off centerline with every transverse welding seam. Most plywood builders will not claim casual skills welding of up to 1/2 steel under full control in all axis...or trying out plasma-cutting as an after-thouight to building a plywood hull. The worst would be to go through all this, and have your (de facto newbie) welding-distortions produce unfair curves, and off-center warping, so that none of this would fit, despite most precise initial raw-stock measurements.

It seems much simpler to deal with small pieces, limited fasteners and thus sealant curing-time each, and gradually hang that belly-armor one piece at a time under full control. And once damage or corrosion have compromised one piece, you'll just face the effort of pulling only this one piece off.

We never did the numbers for straight copper, but that you can cut that yourself, drill, counter-sink, chamfer, and bend in place by setting up overlong fasteners until 'good'. With no steel-shop bending and machining-hours, might this even be a fiscally-plausible approach, thinking in total life-time costs incl. zero bottom-paint expense ?

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F“

Having resumed my armchair positionI would respond in this way to your observations.   I don’t know if the expansion/contraction of the hypothetical 30”steel shoe is“acceptable”.  I was really just thinking out loud about how I wouldaccommodateit if I had to build such a structure and mount it to a hull. Thecorrosionof the steel shoe and fasteners, un-controlledor otherwise, would be a painful thingto see.  All those who ever wielded achipping hammer on the decks of a steel build boat or ship have cursed the loving bond between oxygen atomsand others. (Remind me in another thread to pontificate on the design of my mobileelectrolysissystem for reversing corrosion on steel hulls…)

If Iwere doing it I would use oval headed bolts inserted through the bottom of the shoe and up into the fastening structure of the hull.  I really doubt that normal grounding between tideswould render too much damage too frequently. I know you said rocks are frequent on even muddy bottom in your area of NE, so maybe my appreciation for the hazard is insufficient.

I don’t understand the question on elongating the fastening geometries as well?  Could you re-phrase?

Probably, nothing is gained by doing things differently, butthen it is fun to raise the question and consider possible alternative solutions.  In some circles thisleads to improvements in process, output and finished result….occasionallypeople get fancy and call it“spiral engineering”. 

Your points about simpler and easier to deal with,and maintain or replace smaller assemblies of armorplate are certainly powerful advantages to considerin the method Phil proposed.

If it was me, Bubba, doing the building of a flat bottomed craft and I wanted ballast and an armored hull,I would lay something like 2x8’s or 2x10’s across the bottom in mastic from stem to stern.  Then I would call CSX or one of the local rail road lines and buy some used steel rail to cut into short lengths to be mounted in the hull low down for ballast.  That way I would be able to take care of the bottom myself and if the 2-bys ever got chewed up in a hard grounding I wouldn’t have to replace the entire bottom, just the damaged pieces.  The rail ballast on the inside could be concentrated in a central area so thatit could be removed at need for maintenance,and trim ballastcould be used to handle un-even loads that messy people like me tend to accumulate in the aft sections of boasts for some reason.  Passengers and crew will just congregate in the cockpit around the beer cooler on every boat I have been on for some unknown reason?!  It’ssimilarto that bond between oxygen atoms and others.

Heck, if I was really working on KISS for a shoal draft boat I would build interior bins for ballast rock to replace the steel from the rails.  That way I would avoid all the mess from steelcorrosionand be able to adjust ballast by myself one rock at a time. That could be useful if I drove ashore on Sapello Island one night at dead high tideand the batteries in my cell phone died so that I couldn’t call SEA TOW.

Has anyone priced cedar 2-by stock recently?? Regards, SSK

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5003 - Release Date: 05/16/12

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5003 - Release Date: 05/16/12

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mkriley48" <mkriley48@...> wrote:
>
> suzanne,
> then steel to ply joint will be fine as wood to steel joints have existed for hundreds of years in the form of deadwood to ballast joins in wooden boats with external ballast.
> mike

I thought the standard in wood building was a lead keel connected with bronze alloy bolts.

Second, since working with 1/2 plate is so difficult, how practical would it be to use two 1/4 plates expoxied together? There are various ways to do this but the one that comes to mind is bend each 1/4 plate as close to the curve as possible, fasten it at the center of the upright hull and then jack it into position with the hull upright, fastening from the center out fore and aft. The first plate's countersunk fasteners would be covered by the epoxy for the second plate's (offset) fasteners. Second plate would be final bent and fastened the same way. The second plate might require fasteners spaced in the 'middle' to clamp it up securely to the first plate, but these wouldn't have to be through hull - as long as they were threaded into the first plate.

I've had a little experience working with steel and think it's likely a 4x4 sheet of 1/4" could be bent in place to the bottom. What I don't know is if there is a downside regarding corrosion; I'm assuming a good epoxy or fbglass joint between the two sheets would take care of that and that there would be no more corrosion on the outer 1/4" sheet than on a 1/2" plate. Another possible advantage is that as the outer plate corrodes too much, it could be ground down or off and another 1/4" plate put in place.

Sorry if this idea has been discussed and discarded.

Scot

----- Original Message -----

From:mkriley48

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:08 PM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

suzanne,
then steel to ply joint will be fine as wood to steel joints have existed for hundreds of years in the form of deadwood to ballast joins in wooden boats with external ballast.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> I was inquiring about the horizontal steel-to-ply joint which would be wet a lot of the time. No details then ?
>
> Phil and I lived aboard RESOLUTION fully frozen-in with 8-10 inches of saltwater ice all around us; the only time to 'walk on water'...
> We've also lived aboard hauled-out with 107 inches of snow-total one winter. Things will freeze solid alright...
>
> Your reasoning on this insulation-distribution eludes me. It suggests mostly moderate climate experience. Pumping precious btu's through naked metal into the atmosphere or into the water sounds extravagant... and not the way through a healthy winter-experience - even if you could afford the fuel.
>
> There is one book in which couple takes a French-built steel-hull into the ice around Antarctica, with just foam-panels glued in, but with framing, bulkheads etc. inevitably at near outside temperatures. Keeping water liquid was a constant preoccupation next to burning through too much fuel heating to make it through the winter frozen in. Steel hull but utterly inadequate insulation and of course ventilation. Minor foot-notes was inadequate alloy for standing rigging which was too brittle, the 'yachty Bermudian rig could not be lowered and during storms no oral communications were plausible for many days on end while everything shaking, humming, howling, the engine died just as they entered the ice, they did need 'other-government's costly med-evac' despite oaths to be self-sufficient...etc.
>
> To summarize: Tall rig, full-keel deep hull, steel, no coherent insulation nor ventilation - very standard metal-boat practices...
>
> Hence our pursuits in the aforementioned 4-season steel-cruiser designs. Not a simple task to do a steel-hull, appropriate to deep-freezing winter-habitation. There are cascading challenges and opportunities. And the hull-shell itself is not the dramatic part.
>
> Susanne Altenburger
>
> P.S.: On the steel-bottom/ply-top hull-structure proposal we remain uncertain...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mkriley48
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:38 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> 1http://www.derecktor.com/index.html
> he built 2 12 meter yachts and numerous custom boats, catered to the Herishoff crowd. I started my marine career in the fort lauderdale yard and worked on lots of his boats and others some were 20 years old at the time with no problems. He did not invent plywood decks on metal boats, I would refer you to one of the numerous metal boat building boat books available.
>
> 2 the bottom will be at water temp. which obviously be above freezing.
> metal boats are never insulated in the bilge. Condensation is worst higher up in the boat due to heat stratification. Top sides and cabin need insulated no matter what the material. steel seems to be the boat material of choice for sailers in the high latitudes.
> mike
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> > where would one learn more about these particular Derektor types ?
> > Are you assuming an 'immortal' joint between steel and ply ?
> >
> > "I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains."
> >
> > Could you elaborate as to the apparent underlying assumptions such as "..need not be insulated as it is tempered by the water..." ?
> > Even frozen condensation is condensation, and frozen water-& holding-tanks are no fun when living aboard. In really cold winters even your uninsulated diesel-system may present challenges...
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mkriley48
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:07 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The join would be where the join is now with the plywood laying in the steel rabbit. The bulkheads would be same as in a wooden as29 and
> > fasten at the bottom to welded in tabs. The contraction is a non issue
> > as many metal boats have wooden decks successfully for decades and more. Mechanically fastened to the steel with a non hardening self amalgamating compound like butyl rubber it won't leak, and it appears to be above the waterline. Bob Direktor has built many of these hybrid yachts in the 50's and 60's and they still sell for large amounts of money.
> > I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains.
> > thanks for your consideration.
> > mike
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You may need to re-think the idea on a number of points.
> > > If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen structurally.
> > > Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I believe.
> > > How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel below the seam ?
> > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: mkriley48
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM
> > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
> > > that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
> > > this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> > > > Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> > > > Then it is up to running square-footage.
> > > > Then one would decide on local thickness.
> > > > Etc.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Mike Allison
> > > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
> > > >
> > > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> > > >
> > > > How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> I was inquiring about the horizontal steel-to-ply joint which would be wet a lot of the time. No details then ?
>
> Phil and I lived aboard RESOLUTION fully frozen-in with 8-10 inches of saltwater ice all around us; the only time to 'walk on water'...
> We've also lived aboard hauled-out with 107 inches of snow-total one winter. Things will freeze solid alright...
>
> Your reasoning on this insulation-distribution eludes me. It suggests mostly moderate climate experience. Pumping precious btu's through naked metal into the atmosphere or into the water sounds extravagant... and not the way through a healthy winter-experience - even if you could afford the fuel.
>
> There is one book in which couple takes a French-built steel-hull into the ice around Antarctica, with just foam-panels glued in, but with framing, bulkheads etc. inevitably at near outside temperatures. Keeping water liquid was a constant preoccupation next to burning through too much fuel heating to make it through the winter frozen in. Steel hull but utterly inadequate insulation and of course ventilation. Minor foot-notes was inadequate alloy for standing rigging which was too brittle, the 'yachty Bermudian rig could not be lowered and during storms no oral communications were plausible for many days on end while everything shaking, humming, howling, the engine died just as they entered the ice, they did need 'other-government's costly med-evac' despite oaths to be self-sufficient...etc.
>
> To summarize: Tall rig, full-keel deep hull, steel, no coherent insulation nor ventilation - very standard metal-boat practices...
>
> Hence our pursuits in the aforementioned 4-season steel-cruiser designs. Not a simple task to do a steel-hull, appropriate to deep-freezing winter-habitation. There are cascading challenges and opportunities. And the hull-shell itself is not the dramatic part.
>
> Susanne Altenburger
>
> P.S.: On the steel-bottom/ply-top hull-structure proposal we remain uncertain...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mkriley48
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:38 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> 1http://www.derecktor.com/index.html
> he built 2 12 meter yachts and numerous custom boats, catered to the Herishoff crowd. I started my marine career in the fort lauderdale yard and worked on lots of his boats and others some were 20 years old at the time with no problems. He did not invent plywood decks on metal boats, I would refer you to one of the numerous metal boat building boat books available.
>
> 2 the bottom will be at water temp. which obviously be above freezing.
> metal boats are never insulated in the bilge. Condensation is worst higher up in the boat due to heat stratification. Top sides and cabin need insulated no matter what the material. steel seems to be the boat material of choice for sailers in the high latitudes.
> mike
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> > where would one learn more about these particular Derektor types ?
> > Are you assuming an 'immortal' joint between steel and ply ?
> >
> > "I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains."
> >
> > Could you elaborate as to the apparent underlying assumptions such as "..need not be insulated as it is tempered by the water..." ?
> > Even frozen condensation is condensation, and frozen water-& holding-tanks are no fun when living aboard. In really cold winters even your uninsulated diesel-system may present challenges...
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mkriley48
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:07 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The join would be where the join is now with the plywood laying in the steel rabbit. The bulkheads would be same as in a wooden as29 and
> > fasten at the bottom to welded in tabs. The contraction is a non issue
> > as many metal boats have wooden decks successfully for decades and more. Mechanically fastened to the steel with a non hardening self amalgamating compound like butyl rubber it won't leak, and it appears to be above the waterline. Bob Direktor has built many of these hybrid yachts in the 50's and 60's and they still sell for large amounts of money.
> > I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains.
> > thanks for your consideration.
> > mike
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You may need to re-think the idea on a number of points.
> > > If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen structurally.
> > > Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I believe.
> > > How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel below the seam ?
> > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: mkriley48
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM
> > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
> > > that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
> > > this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> > > > Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> > > > Then it is up to running square-footage.
> > > > Then one would decide on local thickness.
> > > > Etc.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Mike Allison
> > > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
> > > >
> > > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> > > >
> > > > How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "SSK" <machinist@...> wrote:
(Remind me in
> another thread to pontificate on the design of my mobile electrolysis system
> for reversing corrosion on steel hulls.)

“
In light of the projected and thus apparently 'acceptable' movement of the long shoe, incl. along those many fasteners, you'll accept uncontrolled corrosion between hull and steel and all those fasteners ? As we know from under-prtotected light steel hulls, 1/8" steel won't take long.

Since the fasteners need to be counter-sunk to not be ground-off/knocked-off in routine thin-water pursuits, would you elongate those fastening-geometries as well ?

What are we gaining by doing things differently ?

Taking a <4x4' template off the given as-built bottom-curvature if not even actual 'foot-print' and giving each piece a modest bend seems quite undramatic versus just controlling the welding process of that long piece to not have it 'walk' off centerline with every transverse welding seam. Most plywood builders will not claim casual skills welding of up to 1/2 steel under full control in all axis...or trying out plasma-cutting as an after-thouight to building a plywood hull. The worst would be to go through all this, and have your (de facto newbie) welding-distortions produce unfair curves, and off-center warping, so that none of this would fit, despite most precise initial raw-stock measurements.

It seems much simpler to deal with small pieces, limited fasteners and thus sealant curing-time each, and gradually hang that belly-armor one piece at a time under full control. And once damage or corrosion have compromised one piece, you'll just face the effort of pulling only this one piece off.

We never did the numbers for straight copper, but that you can cut that yourself, drill, counter-sink, chamfer, and bend in place by setting up overlong fasteners until 'good'. With no steel-shop bending and machining-hours, might this even be a fiscally-plausible approach, thinking in total life-time costs incl. zero bottom-paint expense ?

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F“

Having resumed my armchair positionI would respond in this way to your observations.   I don’t know if the expansion/contraction of the hypothetical 30”steel shoe is“acceptable”.  I was really just thinking out loud about how I wouldaccommodateit if I had to build such a structure and mount it to a hull. Thecorrosionof the steel shoe and fasteners, un-controlledor otherwise, would be a painful thingto see.  All those who ever wielded achipping hammer on the decks of a steel build boat or ship have cursed the loving bond between oxygen atomsand others. (Remind me in another thread to pontificate on the design of my mobileelectrolysissystem for reversing corrosion on steel hulls…)

If Iwere doing it I would use oval headed bolts inserted through the bottom of the shoe and up into the fastening structure of the hull.  I really doubt that normal grounding between tideswould render too much damage too frequently. I know you said rocks are frequent on even muddy bottom in your area of NE, so maybe my appreciation for the hazard is insufficient.

I don’t understand the question on elongating the fastening geometries as well?  Could you re-phrase?

Probably, nothing is gained by doing things differently, butthen it is fun to raise the question and consider possible alternative solutions.  In some circles thisleads to improvements in process, output and finished result….occasionallypeople get fancy and call it“spiral engineering”. 

Your points about simpler and easier to deal with,and maintain or replace smaller assemblies of armorplate are certainly powerful advantages to considerin the method Phil proposed.

If it was me, Bubba, doing the building of a flat bottomed craft and I wanted ballast and an armored hull,I would lay something like 2x8’s or 2x10’s across the bottom in mastic from stem to stern.  Then I would call CSX or one of the local rail road lines and buy some used steel rail to cut into short lengths to be mounted in the hull low down for ballast.  That way I would be able to take care of the bottom myself and if the 2-bys ever got chewed up in a hard grounding I wouldn’t have to replace the entire bottom, just the damaged pieces.  The rail ballast on the inside could be concentrated in a central area so thatit could be removed at need for maintenance,and trim ballastcould be used to handle un-even loads that messy people like me tend to accumulate in the aft sections of boasts for some reason.  Passengers and crew will just congregate in the cockpit around the beer cooler on every boat I have been on for some unknown reason?!  It’ssimilarto that bond between oxygen atoms and others.

Heck, if I was really working on KISS for a shoal draft boat I would build interior bins for ballast rock to replace the steel from the rails.  That way I would avoid all the mess from steelcorrosionand be able to adjust ballast by myself one rock at a time. That could be useful if I drove ashore on Sapello Island one night at dead high tideand the batteries in my cell phone died so that I couldn’t call SEA TOW.

Has anyone priced cedar 2-by stock recently?? Regards, SSK

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5003 - Release Date: 05/16/12

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5003 - Release Date: 05/16/12

On 05/16/2012 12:24 PM,philbolger@...wrote:

 

I was inquiring about the horizontal steel-to-ply joint which would be wet a lot of the time.  No details then ?
 
Phil and I lived aboard RESOLUTION fully frozen-in with 8-10 inches of saltwater ice all around us; the only time to 'walk on water'...
We've also lived aboard hauled-out with 107 inches of snow-total one winter.  Things will freeze solid alright...

Your reasoning on this insulation-distribution eludes me.  It suggests mostly moderate climate experience.  Pumping precious btu's through naked metal into the atmosphere or into the water sounds extravagant... and not the way through a healthy winter-experience - even if you could afford the fuel.

There is one book in which couple takes a French-built steel-hull into the ice around Antarctica, with just foam-panels glued in, but with framing, bulkheads etc. inevitably at near outside temperatures.  Keeping water liquid was a constant preoccupation next to burning through too much fuel heating to make it through the winter frozen in.  Steel hull but utterly inadequate insulation and of course ventilation.  Minor foot-notes was inadequate alloy for standing rigging which was too brittle, the 'yachty Bermudian rig could not be lowered and during storms no oral communications were plausible for many days on end while everything shaking, humming, howling,  the engine died just as they entered the ice, they did need 'other-government's costly med-evac' despite oaths to be self-sufficient...etc. 

To summarize:  Tall rig, full-keel deep hull, steel, no coherent insulation nor ventilation - very standard metal-boat practices...

Hence our pursuits in the aforementioned 4-season steel-cruiser designs.  Not a simple task to do a steel-hull, appropriate to deep-freezing winter-habitation.  There are cascading challenges and opportunities.  And the hull-shell itself is not the dramatic part.

Susanne Altenburger

P.S.: On the steel-bottom/ply-top hull-structure proposal we remain uncertain...  

     

----- Original Message -----

From:mkriley48

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:38 AM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

1http://www.derecktor.com/index.html
he built 2 12 meter yachts and numerous custom boats, catered to the Herishoff crowd. I started my marine career in the fort lauderdale yard and worked on lots of his boats and others some were 20 years old at the time with no problems. He did not invent plywood decks on metal boats, I would refer you to one of the numerous metal boat building boat books available.

2 the bottom will be at water temp. which obviously be above freezing.
metal boats are never insulated in the bilge. Condensation is worst higher up in the boat due to heat stratification. Top sides and cabin need insulated no matter what the material. steel seems to be the boat material of choice for sailers in the high latitudes.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com,<philbolger@...>wrote:
>
> Mike,
> where would one learn more about these particular Derektor types ?
> Are you assuming an 'immortal' joint between steel and ply ?
>
> "I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains."
>
> Could you elaborate as to the apparent underlying assumptions such as "..need not be insulated as it is tempered by the water..." ?
> Even frozen condensation is condensation, and frozen water-& holding-tanks are no fun when living aboard. In really cold winters even your uninsulated diesel-system may present challenges...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mkriley48
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:07 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
>
> The join would be where the join is now with the plywood laying in the steel rabbit. The bulkheads would be same as in a wooden as29 and
> fasten at the bottom to welded in tabs. The contraction is a non issue
> as many metal boats have wooden decks successfully for decades and more. Mechanically fastened to the steel with a non hardening self amalgamating compound like butyl rubber it won't leak, and it appears to be above the waterline. Bob Direktor has built many of these hybrid yachts in the 50's and 60's and they still sell for large amounts of money.
> I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains.
> thanks for your consideration.
> mike
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > You may need to re-think the idea on a number of points.
> > If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen structurally.
> > Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I believe.
> > How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel below the seam ?
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mkriley48
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >
> >
> >
> > In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
> > that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
> > this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
> > mike
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> > > Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> > > Then it is up to running square-footage.
> > > Then one would decide on local thickness.
> > > Etc.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Allison
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
> > >
> > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> > >
> > > How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
> > >
> >
>

Here is an account by my Brother  in WW2 . He shipped aboard d the USS United States and landed in England.  They took over the Chesapeake bay Steam ferry President Warfield that had been the queen of the Norfolk  Chesapeake bay fleet.   She had been turned over to England in lend lease. She traveled the Seine river out of  France hauling supples and wounded troops back to Leharve France. The war ended and they brought her home across the Atlantic. Somewhere near the Azores they were hit by a storm and she split open at the top of the steel hull which extended about  half way up her free board where it was attached to a wooden upper hull. She opened beween the steel and wood. Had they not had a load of gasoline handy billy pumps that they ran day and night she would have sank.  The weather and seas subsided and the open seam was above the water line so they made it home with prayers by all.  He said we all prayed atheists and all.  The boat later was bought and repaired by the Jews and renamed  Exodus and I guess most here know wht happened to her. What I am saying is at the time they almost sunk her the connection between metal and wood was the weakest place on the boat.  I would not have any objection to wooden decks and such. I would want the metal hull to be strong enough to stand on its own with out any dependence on wood to hold her together.   I would also suspect any wood to metal connection. The metal boats I have built have been of a mono-coupe design and that is metal all over with all wood interior so that cold does not travel through the metal into the boat, for both comfort and looks.   How this applies I have no idea and if it doesn't, well just enjoy.                      Doug

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hence our pursuits in the aforementioned 4-season steel-cruiser designs. Not a simple task to do a steel-hull, appropriate to deep-freezing winter-habitation. There are cascading challenges and opportunities. And the hull-shell itself is not the dramatic part.
>
> Susanne Altenburger

----- Original Message -----

From:mkriley48

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:38 AM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

1http://www.derecktor.com/index.html
he built 2 12 meter yachts and numerous custom boats, catered to the Herishoff crowd. I started my marine career in the fort lauderdale yard and worked on lots of his boats and others some were 20 years old at the time with no problems. He did not invent plywood decks on metal boats, I would refer you to one of the numerous metal boat building boat books available.

2 the bottom will be at water temp. which obviously be above freezing.
metal boats are never insulated in the bilge. Condensation is worst higher up in the boat due to heat stratification. Top sides and cabin need insulated no matter what the material. steel seems to be the boat material of choice for sailers in the high latitudes.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> where would one learn more about these particular Derektor types ?
> Are you assuming an 'immortal' joint between steel and ply ?
>
> "I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains."
>
> Could you elaborate as to the apparent underlying assumptions such as "..need not be insulated as it is tempered by the water..." ?
> Even frozen condensation is condensation, and frozen water-& holding-tanks are no fun when living aboard. In really cold winters even your uninsulated diesel-system may present challenges...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mkriley48
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:07 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
>
> The join would be where the join is now with the plywood laying in the steel rabbit. The bulkheads would be same as in a wooden as29 and
> fasten at the bottom to welded in tabs. The contraction is a non issue
> as many metal boats have wooden decks successfully for decades and more. Mechanically fastened to the steel with a non hardening self amalgamating compound like butyl rubber it won't leak, and it appears to be above the waterline. Bob Direktor has built many of these hybrid yachts in the 50's and 60's and they still sell for large amounts of money.
> I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains.
> thanks for your consideration.
> mike
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > You may need to re-think the idea on a number of points.
> > If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen structurally.
> > Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I believe.
> > How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel below the seam ?
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mkriley48
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >
> >
> >
> > In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
> > that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
> > this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
> > mike
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> > > Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> > > Then it is up to running square-footage.
> > > Then one would decide on local thickness.
> > > Etc.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Allison
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
> > >
> > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> > >
> > > How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
> > >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> where would one learn more about these particular Derektor types ?
> Are you assuming an 'immortal' joint between steel and ply ?
>
> "I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains."
>
> Could you elaborate as to the apparent underlying assumptions such as "..need not be insulated as it is tempered by the water..." ?
> Even frozen condensation is condensation, and frozen water-& holding-tanks are no fun when living aboard. In really cold winters even your uninsulated diesel-system may present challenges...
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mkriley48
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:07 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
>
> The join would be where the join is now with the plywood laying in the steel rabbit. The bulkheads would be same as in a wooden as29 and
> fasten at the bottom to welded in tabs. The contraction is a non issue
> as many metal boats have wooden decks successfully for decades and more. Mechanically fastened to the steel with a non hardening self amalgamating compound like butyl rubber it won't leak, and it appears to be above the waterline. Bob Direktor has built many of these hybrid yachts in the 50's and 60's and they still sell for large amounts of money.
> I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains.
> thanks for your consideration.
> mike
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > You may need to re-think the idea on a number of points.
> > If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen structurally.
> > Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I believe.
> > How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel below the seam ?
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mkriley48
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >
> >
> >
> > In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
> > that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
> > this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
> > mike
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> > > Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> > > Then it is up to running square-footage.
> > > Then one would decide on local thickness.
> > > Etc.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Allison
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
> > >
> > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> > >
> > > How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
> > >
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From:SSK

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:39 PM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

“
We once ran numbers on a 30-foot long 'grounding-shoe' and found the movement to be 6.7mm i.e. well over 1/4" between 35-degree F Glacier Bay waters and sitting in a southern California boat-yard or traveling the Inter Highway System in summer. Add some more movement of you store her in Wisconsin at -20F during the Great Lakes Tour...That would 'start' any through-fasteners to at least leak - even if drowned in 3M-5200. Or so our reasoning...”

Himmm, that calculation induces some rubbing of my head.   6.7mm is the total length of expansion of a steel grounding shoethat is 30’long.  So, from end to end the length increases by 6.7mm, butwhat would be the amount of expansion/displacement between any two points on the shoe?? Is it reasonable to presume that the expansion is about 3.35mm from one end of the shoe to half way along the shoe? If that is approximately correct could one make a 30’steel shoe and do“Hard Fastenings”in the central section of the shoe and force theexpansion/contraction movement caused by Delta T to occur in the end portions of the shoe? In a scheme such as I imagine fabricate the fastening openings intheshoe as elongatedovals for 10’or 12’on either end of the shoe and let the shoeshift on the bolts/fastenings. The central hard fit fastenings would not shift enough to be critical hopefully.

I supposethere would be otherissues like water penetration between the shoe and the bottom as the bedding mastic might not adhere properly. 

There might be some fabrication advantages…make the 30’shoe out of 1/8”plate bedded in some mastic onabent to needed curve ona plywood form or building table.   Make asandwich of the plates that overlaps, tack weld or fully weld all seams asyou like, and go to town building herupright from the git-go!

Alternatively, build the sandwich shoe out of 1/8”plate on a mould or formto get the right curve.   Cut fastening holes just slightly oversizeevery foot or so.   Build boat on top of the shoe and use some hell-on-wheelslarge external chine logs (I always loved Phil’s invention of the external chine log even though I know how to cut the bevels for interior chines) At some point drill vertical engagement holes through the external chines and make them slightly oversize also. Bolt the shoe to the chines with the biggest washers that will fitand let her expand and contract however she wishes.  Theloose bolts should allow play for the movement.  Plan for and expect a non-water tight seal between the shoe and the bottom.  Buyan angle grinder before you launch for ships stores and be prepared to grind through sixty odd bolts every few yearsto drop the shoe and do bottom work, etc.

That would be the armchair approach for this old dude.  Let those who know better tell me how hair brained my ideas are…I need another good laugh!

Regards, SSK

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12

ier to

“
We once ran numbers on a 30-foot long 'grounding-shoe' and found the movement to be 6.7mm i.e. well over 1/4" between 35-degree F Glacier Bay waters and sitting in a southern California boat-yard or traveling the Inter Highway System in summer. Add some more movement of you store her in Wisconsin at -20F during the Great Lakes Tour...That would 'start' any through-fasteners to at least leak - even if drowned in 3M-5200. Or so our reasoning...”

Himmm, that calculation induces some rubbing of my head.   6.7mm is the total length of expansion of a steel grounding shoethat is 30’long.  So, from end to end the length increases by 6.7mm, butwhat would be the amount of expansion/displacement between any two points on the shoe?? Is it reasonable to presume that the expansion is about 3.35mm from one end of the shoe to half way along the shoe? If that is approximately correct could one make a 30’steel shoe and do“Hard Fastenings”in the central section of the shoe and force theexpansion/contraction movement caused by Delta T to occur in the end portions of the shoe? In a scheme such as I imagine fabricate the fastening openings intheshoe as elongatedovals for 10’or 12’on either end of the shoe and let the shoeshift on the bolts/fastenings. The central hard fit fastenings would not shift enough to be critical hopefully.

I supposethere would be otherissues like water penetration between the shoe and the bottom as the bedding mastic might not adhere properly. 

There might be some fabrication advantages…make the 30’shoe out of 1/8”plate bedded in some mastic onabent to needed curve ona plywood form or building table.   Make asandwich of the plates that overlaps, tack weld or fully weld all seams asyou like, and go to town building herupright from the git-go!

Alternatively, build the sandwich shoe out of 1/8”plate on a mould or formto get the right curve.   Cut fastening holes just slightly oversizeevery foot or so.   Build boat on top of the shoe and use some hell-on-wheelslarge external chine logs (I always loved Phil’s invention of the external chine log even though I know how to cut the bevels for interior chines) At some point drill vertical engagement holes through the external chines and make them slightly oversize also. Bolt the shoe to the chines with the biggest washers that will fitand let her expand and contract however she wishes.  Theloose bolts should allow play for the movement.  Plan for and expect a non-water tight seal between the shoe and the bottom.  Buyan angle grinder before you launch for ships stores and be prepared to grind through sixty odd bolts every few yearsto drop the shoe and do bottom work, etc.

That would be the armchair approach for this old dude.  Let those who know better tell me how hair brained my ideas are…I need another good laugh!

Regards, SSK

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12

----- Original Message -----

From:mkriley48

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:07 PM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

The join would be where the join is now with the plywood laying in the steel rabbit. The bulkheads would be same as in a wooden as29 and
fasten at the bottom to welded in tabs. The contraction is a non issue
as many metal boats have wooden decks successfully for decades and more. Mechanically fastened to the steel with a non hardening self amalgamating compound like butyl rubber it won't leak, and it appears to be above the waterline. Bob Direktor has built many of these hybrid yachts in the 50's and 60's and they still sell for large amounts of money.
I did not word the insulation issue right as I meant the steel specific insulation issue as steel below the water line does not need to be insulated as it is tempered by the water. The general insulation issue remains.
thanks for your consideration.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> You may need to re-think the idea on a number of points.
> If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen structurally.
> Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I believe.
> How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel below the seam ?
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mkriley48
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
> that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
> this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
> mike
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> > Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> > Then it is up to running square-footage.
> > Then one would decide on local thickness.
> > Etc.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mike Allison
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >
> >
> >
> > On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@ wrote:
> >
> > Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
> >
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> >
> > How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> You may need to re-think the idea on a number of points.
> If picked up at a bulkhead not much should happen structurally.
> Steel and plywood expand and contract differently I believe.
> How do you address the insulation-issue again by going to all-steel below the seam ?
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mkriley48
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
> that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
> this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
> mike
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@> wrote:
> >
> > You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> > Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> > Then it is up to running square-footage.
> > Then one would decide on local thickness.
> > Etc.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mike Allison
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> >
> >
> >
> > On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@ wrote:
> >
> > Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
> >
> > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> >
> > How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
> >
>

----- Original Message -----

From:ANDREW AIREY

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Monday, May 14, 2012 2:56 PM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

You should shop around for more quotes.Most fab shops of any size should be able to handle the rolling,particularly if they have overhead craneage,although you could always use shorter plates and weld the sections together if necessary.Now if you were wanting to joggle 1/2" plate at short centres to create an overlap as I used to have done for armoured face conveyor deck plates,that needs some serious pressures.How about using 1/4" plate,which ought to provide enough protection and be easier to bend,and make up the balance with ballast. British canal narrowboats(7' beam) are routinely built with 1/2" plate bottoms but these are generally flat bottomed except possibly for a rise at the bows.However the sides( 1/4"plate) are generally pulled into place with comealongs to create the curves.

cheers

Andy Airey

----- Original Message -----

From:mkriley48

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Monday, May 14, 2012 11:59 AM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

In seeing pictures of a as29 build I noticed that the bottom and a small part of sides are built upside down and then turned over and the rest built. I would propose that it be built of steel and the rest be built of plywood, this gets rid of the insulation problems of steel and and the not insignificant problem of point loading the chines when picked up by a travel lift. This causes the chine leakage
that destroys many plywood boats. What do you think Suzanne?
this should be able to be done reasonably by a small commercial welding shop.
mike

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> Then it is up to running square-footage.
> Then one would decide on local thickness.
> Etc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Allison
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@... wrote:
>
> Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
>
>
>
> Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> Beyond this episode of that steel-armor saving the live-aboard hull, I should have added the immediate daily advantage lost on folks reared on deep-draft credos.
>
> This belly allows staying for the night or the gale falling dry in tidal creeks with uncertain bottoms. Hereabouts we can have super-soft mud next to hard sand next to boulders and ledge. A 'hard' belly seems appropriate - and extraordinarily rare in cruisers since even most steel-craft are not shallow, and or welded up out of astonishingly thin gauge plating often not fit for hard contact. On AS-29 or LM-2 severe corrosion will only lead to less ballast-function but never to perforation and thus flooding if not sinking.
>
> Shallow-draft cruisers you worry about taking into the shallows seem a pointless exercise. The 1/2+ protruding edge to take the first hard impact should also help on 'Chine-Sailing' dashes across shallows leaving a swirl of sand or mud in the wake.
>
> All in all a sound investment allowing you to maximize these cruising hull's coastal and inland-capabilities.
> Susanne Altenburger
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: philbolger@...
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
> "Anemone' is the modified LM-2 we did for the Gauthiers in Montreal. She was the first recipient of this form of ballast.
> They just did it on that home-built 38' hull in the limited-size pieces to allow easier handling all around and to avoid expansion/contraction issues of any full-length assembly.
>
> Years later, a squall-line hit them along with many others in an anchorage. It is our understanding that it was that bottom-armor that saved the hull amidst others that were damaged terminally on a rocky shoreline. Moderate damage to her was repaired and she was back afloat in a matter of weeks.
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rod Symington
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> I have the sheet in front of me: it calls for eight plates, secured by 68 1/2" bolts and set in mastic. The plates are to be manufactured from templates taken off the finished hull.
>
> The process may have its advantages (e.g. an indestructible bottom, plus the ability to add more internal ballast if needed), but the installation would be expensive, difficult, and very labor-intensive. I installed internal steel ballast for $750, in less than a day, working alone.
>
> Rod
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: SSK <machinist@...>;
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>;
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
> Sent: Sun, May 13, 2012 4:52:54 PM
>
>
>
> I am sort of interested in the discussion on bending ½" steel bottom plate for installation on the AS29. Has anyone looked up Mr. Bolger's original design brief or the building directions to see how he thought the installation should be done? As a practical sort of person, Bolger seemed to usually envision methods/techniques to build his designs. Maybe the answer is in the building notes?? Regards, SSK
>
> -----
>
> No virus found in this message.
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
> Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4996 - Release Date: 05/13/12
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4996 - Release Date: 05/13/12
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> You've got to match the steel-ballast weight.
> Then you've got to decide how much of her under-water body you'd want to cover.
> Then it is up to running square-footage.
> Then one would decide on local thickness.
> Etc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Allison
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
>
>
>
> On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM, philbolger@... wrote:
>
> Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her. Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.
>
>
>
> Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)
>

----- Original Message -----

From:Mike Allison

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Monday, May 14, 2012 8:40 AM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM,philbolger@...wrote:

 Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her.  Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.

Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)

On 05/14/2012 06:17 AM,philbolger@...wrote:

 Copper plate is even more expensive but will produce live-long savings in never having to belly-paint her.  Copper-plating everything up to boot-top level would be ultimate 'hybrid', assuming you'd be interested in carrying a part of your 'wealth' around doing triple-duty as ballast, belly-armor, and 'piggy-bank' asset that is harder to steal than most such 'reserves'.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F

How thin or thick would you say the copper plate should be.

Mike Allison... (North of Kansas City Mo. USA)

----- Original Message -----

From:c.ruzer

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Monday, May 14, 2012 6:52 AM

Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

A 1/2" steel mast? That'd make a good bridge pile on, wouldn't it. And people crossing bridges would look down more often.

Warmish waters there, me too. Simple mild steel fabrication and modern structural/civil engineering coatings (cheaper, and as good or better than "marine" products) have begun to make better the case for steel there. It seems if it's mild steel all the way plus those coatings then corrosion isn't such a problem anymore. Steel takes care of those other worries, like coral, and maybe reduces the financial ones too by virtue of the ease of fabrication, fitting, maintenance, and repair. Go to a square boat, Weston Martyr, say, and I don't know but that it might be quicker than plywood comparisons and cheaper to boot. I can't weld, but that seems to apply to plenty of amateur builders in steel who go on to actually sail away with some welding gear in their tool kit. I've begun to think that building site location due to construction noise may be the remaining major issue to solve for uncomplicated amateur boats built of steel. I'm off to look at that Weston Martyr article again now.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "sandidgeneal" <nsandidge@...> wrote:
>
> A lot of truth in what you say. We are pursuing cheaper options, but ideally would like that armor plating on the bottom. We have a lot of coral here. Plus, I am a fairly careless navigator. I should probably build the whole boat out of 1/2" steel, including the mast, cuz I often forget to look up when going under bridges!
>
> Neal

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "sandidgeneal" <nsandidge@...> wrote:
>
> A lot of truth in what you say. We are pursuing cheaper options, but ideally would like that armor plating on the bottom. We have a lot of coral here. Plus, I am a fairly careless navigator. I should probably build the whole boat out of 1/2" steel, including the mast, cuz I often forget to look up when going under bridges!
>
> Neal

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Neal,
>
> 1500 dollars looks to be a not insignificant lump of dollars, but just how big a lump is that in overall perspective? Do you have an estimated range for the total fully fitted out sail-away dollar lump sum? The expected term of use, and the maintenance dollars?
>
> What's your perspective on first party property yacht insurance protection? As related to the sail-away dollar lump, and also the possible insured values? Can you say if it's a necessary expenditure or optional, and how do those positions play into the fully-rolled-steel-plate dollar-for-dollar considerations?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "sandidgeneal" <nsandidge@> wrote:
> >
> > Just got a quote from a local shipyard on rolling the 1/2" steel bottom plates for my AS29. $1500! Just for the bending. Still have to buy the plate, have it cut to suit, bore and countersink the bolt-holes, and galvanize!
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "sandidgeneal" <nsandidge@...> wrote:
>
> Just got a quote from a local shipyard on rolling the 1/2" steel bottom plates for my AS29. $1500! Just for the bending. Still have to buy the plate, have it cut to suit, bore and countersink the bolt-holes, and galvanize!

----- Original Message -----

From:Mike Allison

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Sunday, May 13, 2012 2:18 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

On 05/13/2012 01:02 PM,philbolger@...wrote:

 

Susanne,

Do you remember how thick the plates where used on Anemone?


Mike Allison ...(North of Kansas City Mo, USA)

"Anemone' is the modified LM-2 we did for the Gauthiers in Montreal.  She was the first recipient of this form of ballast.
They just did it on that home-built 38' hull in the limited-size pieces to allow easier handling all around and to avoid expansion/contraction issues of any full-length assembly. 

Years later, a squall-line hit them along with many others in an anchorage.  It is our understanding that it was that bottom-armor that saved the hull amidst others that were damaged terminally on a rocky shoreline.  Moderate damage to her was repaired and she was back afloat in a matter of weeks. 

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  

On 05/13/2012 01:02 PM,philbolger@...wrote:

 

"Anemone' is the modified LM-2 we did for the Gauthiers in Montreal.  She was the first recipient of this form of ballast.
They just did it on that home-built 38' hull in the limited-size pieces to allow easier handling all around and to avoid expansion/contraction issues of any full-length assembly. 

Years later, a squall-line hit them along with many others in an anchorage.  It is our understanding that it was that bottom-armor that saved the hull amidst others that were damaged terminally on a rocky shoreline.  Moderate damage to her was repaired and she was back afloat in a matter of weeks. 

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  

Susanne,

Do you remember how thick the plates where used on Anemone?


Mike Allison ...(North of Kansas City Mo, USA)

----- Original Message -----

From:philbolger@...

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Sunday, May 13, 2012 2:02 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

"Anemone' is the modified LM-2 we did for the Gauthiers in Montreal.  She was the first recipient of this form of ballast.
They just did it on that home-built 38' hull in the limited-size pieces to allow easier handling all around and to avoid expansion/contraction issues of any full-length assembly. 

Years later, a squall-line hit them along with many others in an anchorage.  It is our understanding that it was that bottom-armor that saved the hull amidst others that were damaged terminally on a rocky shoreline.  Moderate damage to her was repaired and she was back afloat in a matter of weeks. 

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  

----- Original Message -----

From:Rod Symington

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Sunday, May 13, 2012 1:34 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

I have the sheet in front of me: it calls for eight plates, secured by 68 1/2" bolts and set in mastic. The plates are to be manufactured from templates taken off the finished hull. The process may have its advantages (e.g. an indestructible bottom, plus the ability to add more internal ballast if needed), but the installation would be expensive, difficult, and very labor-intensive. I installed internal steel ballast for $750, in less than a day, working alone. Rod

---

From:SSK <machinist@...>;
To:<bolger@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
Sent:Sun, May 13, 2012 4:52:54 PM

I am sort of interested in the discussion on bending½”steel bottom plate for installation on the AS29.  Has anyone looked up Mr.Bolger’soriginaldesign brief or the building directions to see how he thought the installation should be done?  As a practical sort of person, Bolgerseemed to usually envision methods/techniques to build his designs.  Maybe the answer is in the building notes??  Regards, SSK

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4996 - Release Date: 05/13/12

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4996 - Release Date: 05/13/12

----- Original Message -----

From:Rod Symington

To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

Sent:Sunday, May 13, 2012 1:34 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate

 

I have the sheet in front of me: it calls for eight plates, secured by 68 1/2" bolts and set in mastic. The plates are to be manufactured from templates taken off the finished hull. The process may have its advantages (e.g. an indestructible bottom, plus the ability to add more internal ballast if needed), but the installation would be expensive, difficult, and very labor-intensive. I installed internal steel ballast for $750, in less than a day, working alone. Rod

---

From:SSK <machinist@...>;
To:<bolger@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject:[bolger] Re: Bending AS29 bottom plate
Sent:Sun, May 13, 2012 4:52:54 PM

I am sort of interested in the discussion on bending½”steel bottom plate for installation on the AS29.  Has anyone looked up Mr.Bolger’soriginaldesign brief or the building directions to see how he thought the installation should be done?  As a practical sort of person, Bolgerseemed to usually envision methods/techniques to build his designs.  Maybe the answer is in the building notes??  Regards, SSK

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4996 - Release Date: 05/13/12

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4996 - Release Date: 05/13/12

I am sort of interested in the discussion on bending½”steel bottom plate for installation on the AS29.  Has anyone looked up Mr.Bolger’soriginaldesign brief or the building directions to see how he thought the installation should be done?  As a practical sort of person, Bolgerseemed to usually envision methods/techniques to build his designs.  Maybe the answer is in the building notes??  Regards, SSK

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4996 - Release Date: 05/13/12

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4996 - Release Date: 05/13/12

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hamill" <mhamill1@...> wrote:
>
> There is also Wasser Tar and Epoxy Tar made by most paint companies (for example ClovaTar made by Cloverdale Paint in Canada) and just plain old hot tar with a burlap backing (if you even need the backing??) or Zinc Primer and epoxy paint
>
> Bottle or House jacks may work to bend between logs pushing against ??
>
> Wasser Tarhttp://www.wassercoatings.com/specialty.html
> ClovaTar 22-http://www.cloverdalepaint.com/contractor_professional/product.asp?code=83022
> Or International/Devoe Devtar 5Ahttp://www.international-pc.com/PDS/4507+P+eng-usa+LTR.pdf
>

On 05/12/2012 06:32 AM, sandidgeneal wrote:

 

Just got a quote from a local shipyard on rolling the 1/2" steel bottom plates for my AS29. $1500! Just for the bending. Still have to buy the plate, have it cut to suit, bore and countersink the bolt-holes, and galvanize!

Fortunately, Filipinos are very clever, so we are going to look around for other low-tech options to make the curve (i.e. pounding it with sledgehammers!).

Neal