Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

Many will use the e-prop more than 50% of the time, it saves fuel, engine hours, is more enjoyable, more reliable.
255 amp hrs is a good benchmark


-----Original Message-----
From: c.ruzer <c.ruzer@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:35 am
Subject: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 


The facts are the link appears to be for intermittent electric propulsion use on sail craft - ie. for short hops: "Perfect for lake sailors; plenty of power and range to get out to sail Enough range for weekend sailors to motor home, if the wind dies" - and shore power recommended. Note that Electric Yacht advise "For extended trips (sailing) away from home, a small gasoline generator can be used to charge the batteries through these chargers."http://www.electricyacht.com/faqs/battery-selection/Why then add the $4000 for the hybrid drive to the ICE dollars on a power cruising craft? How many batteries by your calculations?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
> Susanne, your calculations on Battery Storage requirements of 80kW are incorrect, leading to decisions not based on facts. In many cases, a Parallel Hybrid works best, then again, in many cases, straight electric is a great solution.http://www.electricyacht.com/products/our-weekender-hybrid-systems/

> Here are 2 Parallel Hybrid solutions.

The facts are the link appears to be for intermittent electric propulsion use on sail craft - ie. for short hops: "Perfect for lake sailors; plenty of power and range to get out to sail Enough range for weekend sailors to motor home, if the wind dies" - and shore power recommended. Note that Electric Yacht advise "For extended trips (sailing) away from home, a small gasoline generator can be used to charge the batteries through these chargers."http://www.electricyacht.com/faqs/battery-selection/Why then add the $4000 for the hybrid drive to the ICE dollars on a power cruising craft? How many batteries by your calculations?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
> Susanne, your calculations on Battery Storage requirements of 80kW are incorrect, leading to decisions not based on facts. In many cases, a Parallel Hybrid works best, then again, in many cases, straight electric is a great solution.http://www.electricyacht.com/products/our-weekender-hybrid-systems/

> Here are 2 Parallel Hybrid solutions.

I looked for my ad on the sight but did not find it, so here it is.

Roger


FOR SALE Bolger Idaho

This is the original built by Bernie Wolfard that I purchased in Aug. 1997. It is now on a custom trailer with surge brakes, and has a 1998 25 hp Mariner Big foot motor  with 230 hours that will push the boat to 17 mph at 6000 rpm. This boat has ben stored in side for all the time that I have owned it. In the last four years it has been in the water one time. $12,000.00 OBO


CB radio

handheld VHF

fishfinder

many PDF’s

2 anchors

2 1/2 in X150 ft anchor rodes

Porta Potty

compass

hourmeter

telescoping boarding ladder

tachometer

teleflex steering

2 propellers

2 paddles

hand bilge pump

dock lines

fenders

3 6 gal. fuel tanks


photos on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52920859@N05/7069083303/in/set-72157629431928398


The boat is at Yakima, Washington

You add the water and gas.

Roger Balholm       rjbalholm@...
Check out Mundoo II - electric (plans available)

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/mundoo.php

30 footer loosely based on the Tennessee, the electric version has a box keel where the motor is installed.
Susanne, your calculations on Battery Storage requirements of 80kW are incorrect, leading to
decisions not based on facts. In many cases, a Parallel Hybrid works best, then again, in many cases, straight

Here are 2 Parallel Hybrid solutions. 
John,

Those little boats do very well with electric power. I had aWindsprintpacking about 350 ah that ran 4 hours at pretty close to hull speed. PV arrays still too spendy for me. With batts only, about half the all up weight is a good place to start.

Now on the River Rat, does the 2500# Delaware suit your tow car? Reading again what you wrote about ambitions, even though it's a little longer than you mentioned, I agree with WG that the boat floating to the top is Idaho. The constant sections aft make it pretty easy to move the accommodations around as needed - if all four of you can fit the basic volume anyhow. If you're on a low budget, 7 1/2 hp will drive one of those pretty nicely.

If you just don't have the building space, a nice glass house is atopBantam,which apparently can be built just about any length desired.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Bantam%20Houseboat%20No.%20654/
Mark



 
On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:11 PM, ozarknjrat wrote:

 

Thanks for all the great input and discussion. I need to clarify the usage model a bit, especially w/r/t the solar electric option. 3-5mph under average conditions is all i'm looking for, with only a few hours a day under power. I see these vacations mostly as a trailering to a new location and using the boat as a home base for exploring the general area. My wife is especially interested in spending time on the Shrewsbury river near her childhood home in NJ. The Erie canal, NY Finger lakes, PA Raystown lake are also on the list, as are the thin water estuaries near the NJ coast. Possibly the upper Chesapeake and Delaware. All of the latter would require gas outboard and a more weatherproof cabin structure etc... (I have a 3.5hp Tohatsu that could fit the bill). Wind, weather and tides could easily render the low power electric main useless.

I'm well aware of the merits and challenges of solar and electric. Over 80% of my home electric comes from a 4.8kw PV array. I have been using a PV enabled trolling motor rig on my 18ft Sanibel sailboat for over 10 years (4.5mph for 1 hour from one group 24 Optima Blue Top) which has served my well on Lake Nockamixon in PA (can get me to my berth from anywhere on the lake).


The brokerage I have worked thru for some dozen years, gave a try a few years back to market the Duffy Electric Boat -- one of the major suppliers of commercially-available electric harbor-launches -- in the Pacific Northwest, and found that there were very few usage-scenarios in this very active boating area where such a boat made sense.  For evening cruises around such bodies as Newport Harbor CA (over 2000 Duffies!) and other protected urban settings, yep...  Up our way, only Seattle's Lake Union has similar usage (and indeed, there's a modest fleet of 'em there, and a rental livery).  But if you need to go from harbor to harbor in Puget Sound, either the battery-conserving speed was unbearably slow to "get there" within a day, or the gung-ho speed nearly used up the battery before getting there AND back. We thought that some of the local residential lakes would be perfect, BUT those are so "roiled up" by wakeboard-pulling speedboats in the afternoon, that there's no chance for a quiet leisurely evening cruise, as the wave-action remains uncomfortably rough well into the night.   After selling only a few outside of Seattle, we gave up the line, and since then nobody else has picked it up...

 

As an experiment, I took their largest model, a 22' full-displacement hull, rather broad but with graceful underbody-lines, using their "double-pack" of SIXTEEN 6v golf-cart batteries, from Gig Harbor to Seattle Yacht Club (for "opening day" festivities), a distance of about 28 nautical miles... ran at about 2/3 throttle or about 4 to 4.5 knots most of the way...  but by the time we were to the Seattle Locks (about 24 miles), we were already noting significant decrease in available speed, so were well "into" using up the capacity of the battery bank. We limped into the Yacht Club at about 1 knot... (regrets, did not record how low the voltage had dipped...).  Recharged over two days and nights, and (wiser!) made the return trip using quite a bit less throttle, probably more like 3 to 3.5 knots average.

 

So that's the most "voyaging" that can be expected from what appears to be the industry-standard for commercially-available (thus fully-debugged) electric boats: see: http://www.duffyboats.com/faqs/  (our trip confirmed that Duffy's claims for speed/distance were a bit inflated....)

 

Regards,

Wayne Gilham

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:39 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

 

Well, if 'technology-galore' is the game and we are happy to invest money, debugging-time, plus volumes and weights into parallel systems, then we're off to the races - and way off the track of affordability etc. 

If techno-focus is overwhelming, we should look at that class of US battleships in the 20s with propellers driven electrically.  But at what cost ?!  Systems were removed some 10 years later if I recollect correctly.  Not reconsidered for many generations of naval officers. 
     Only recently a revisit but under quite different parameters.  With advanced diesel-engines and the willingness to budget multiple smaller such units to be used in various numbers and for various demands such as on cruise-ships or on USN's LHD-8.  The challenge is cost, complexity, and thus returns for the investment. 
On a TENNESSEE-type and scale such a proposal might cover a fair bit of one of the kids' state-college education...

Susanne Altenburger

----- Original Message -----

Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:08 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

 

Electric Propulsion in a Parallel Hybrid System, the E-Motor can be driven by the fossil fuel engine as a dc generator, the E-Motor can also be used alone when makes sense. A 300 amp hr / 48 System works nicely. 

-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 3:36 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

As the sole propulsion on a power-cruiser, the "fuss" are a range of 'No-Free-Lunch'-type unavoidable hard-realities. 

Modest Electric launch LILY (#627) was/is my design - with the prototype under cover visible from my window - and a simple and solid exercise as to certain hard parameters.  Traveling with least noise is indeed agreeable - until there is no more 'noise' and you get out the paddles/oars.  And no refills while adrift.

The "facts" have been in for many years, actually now about a century in terms of the basics involved.  There have been minor improvements on motors and big improvements on batteries per given weight - just not per given Dollar on an affordable family cruiser and thus on range.  

But even if you could afford a TESLA-type budget, how would you recharge the batteries ?  How many days tied up at the marina will it take to arrive at 90+% charge-levels, at what cost ?

Adding a 2-4HP generator as a 'range-extender' on a power-boat will not suffice on anything of the hull-size proposed, especially in light of the unavoidable losses involved to getting 110AC generator output to whatever onboard DC-propulsion-Voltage.  This either suggests the need for much larger battery-banks or just staying all internal-combustion to begin with; listening to a generator does not sound any better than an outboard.  And since you'll need to carry gasoline, where are the advantages on a power-cruiser ?

We stated a long time ago that all e-propulsion on a power-cruiser works at best in a well-controlled/predictable environment where distances, weather, and recharging stations can be expected to 'collaborate', i.e. a moderate-size lake or a canal-system with well-spaced e-outlets.  Beyond that, things begin to thin out...  And that assumes that the outlet plus your extension-cord can flow better than 13-15 amps @ 110-Volt AC ?!  A 220 VAC @200amp hook-up would be very agreeable, but nowhere available in civilian marinas - even if you were willing to pay per foot every night planning your cruise from outlet to outlet...

This has all been done.  Not cheap.  Not necessarily reliable/durable in a power-boat use.  And typically without obviously accessible 'magic' in terms of net practical range and hard recharging-dictates.  Even LiPos would offer no benefits for recharging-juice necessary.

You can't take propulsion-power out of batteries without first putting it in and then recharging that quantity again and again routinely. 
As with e-cars, CNG/LNG- or hydrogen-systems, the infrastructure just is not there - if you were willing to have your cruise dictated by outlet-availability, that is.   

No "fuss" or prejudice, just hard realities.  Might as well go all 'solar' and leverage our personal star to warm this planet and incidentally offer wind-power by investing in spars, sails, lines and use this quite potent propulsion-technology.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 

----- Original Message -----

Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:56 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

 

I will always have a difficult time understanding the "fuss" regarding E-Prop. Basically, any gas/diesel engine that starts with a Key,

has the similar design to an E-Prop System, Battery, Electric Motor. A Hybrid System also makes perfect sense in many cases. 

Traveling on the water with minimal noise, no fuel smell, less pollution is an enjoyable experience by all accounts so far. I have yet to hear anyone say that they did not enjoy it. 

Range is an issue that can be addressed once the facts are in, that being how far & how fast ?.

Geo

-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

Always interesting to consider e-propulsion.
     Electric propulsion is neither cheap nor light for the limited range, not-to-mention potential reliability issues in salt-water environs.

I doubt that you would get close to having enough 'real-estate' for full-time e-supply without major battery-banks and indeed only limited range per running episode between re-charging sessions, assuming predictable/adequate sun-shine.
And the weight of the panels can really add up on a narrow-ish boat.

All this would take you a long way from the underlying principles of simplicity of TENNESSEE, MINNESOTA, DAKOTA, DELAWARE, and even TOPAZ, #679, SACPAS-3 etc.  Be prepared for the e-propulsion to quickly over-shadow hull-construction materials-plus.
No-expense-spared all-e-power cruisers have not been 'break-throughs' on a broad range of fronts.
 
And there is no new technology that makes any of this cheaper.  State-of-the-art batteries are very able - but at an astonishing price.

If you want to 'green' your life and teach your children serious lessons of prioritizing towards doable sustainability
- super-insulate your home one room at a time,

- cut commuting distances,
- down-size the car/truck sand add a trailer for rare full-load scenaria,

- avoid casual stratospheric jaunts to see Aunt Millie at the other end of the continent

etc. etc.

You might be happiest to take a stock design, build it before the next cruising season, and purr along with 10-25HP four-stroke large-prop outboard.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 



 

----- Original Message -----

Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:23 PM

Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

 

> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level
> modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill,

You are smart to do the engineering on a "solar electric primary" to
confirm the feasibility of that plan. I recall reading the PB&F write-ups about
their engineering that they did for the electrical capacity needed to make
Lily (and Electric Spartina) functional E-boats. There was some
pretty major electrical input required, so I would be concerned that a
PV array sized to fit on the limited space available on top of the
cabin roof could come even close to the power actually required.
Also, the battery bank probably would need to weigh above a thousand
pounds, not a few hundred. If you want an Eboat, then that says to me
you would be better to considered a deeper draft to give you the
needed displacement to carry that ballast.

Thanks for all the great input and discussion. I need to clarify the usage model a bit, especially w/r/t the solar electric option. 3-5mph under average conditions is all i'm looking for, with only a few hours a day under power. I see these vacations mostly as a trailering to a new location and using the boat as a home base for exploring the general area. My wife is especially interested in spending time on the Shrewsbury river near her childhood home in NJ. The Erie canal, NY Finger lakes, PA Raystown lake are also on the list, as are the thin water estuaries near the NJ coast. Possibly the upper Chesapeake and Delaware. All of the latter would require gas outboard and a more weatherproof cabin structure etc... (I have a 3.5hp Tohatsu that could fit the bill). Wind, weather and tides could easily render the low power electric main useless.

I'm well aware of the merits and challenges of solar and electric. Over 80% of my home electric comes from a 4.8kw PV array. I have been using a PV enabled trolling motor rig on my 18ft Sanibel sailboat for over 10 years (4.5mph for 1 hour from one group 24 Optima Blue Top) which has served my well on Lake Nockamixon in PA (can get me to my berth from anywhere on the lake).

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ozarknjrat" <oetting@...> wrote:
>
> Spot on Bruce. I'm starting a weight study and will validate the comfort/accessory level with the family. A "camp cruiser" may be a closer description at this point (think wag bags, solar shower in stern cockpit, jerry jug water supply). I see usage as no more than 3 days without resupply of heavy weights like water and ice.
>
> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill, in which case we would be talking a couple of hundred pounds for batteries. One aspect of this concept which I think I am sold on is the use of 6ft wide white HPDE roll material for the cabin roof, topped by Unisolar PVL -68 thin film laminate panels. I like the incremental options for both the panels and the batteries, which would suggest I plan for a higher capacity hull.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 8:20 PM, ozarknjrat <oetting@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat"
> > > series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and
> > > protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred
> > > miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for
> > > a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week.
> >
> >
> > The key issue is how much displacement you need for this four people
> > one week scenario, as that will determine the amount of curvature in
> > the bottom. The 29ft Tennessee has a flat bottom and lighter
> > displacement, maybe not enough. Though Seth Macinko used his
> > Tennessee successfully as live-aboard so go figure. The 26ft Delaware
> > has a deeper bottom and more displacement.
> >
>

Y'know, I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but I do believe that Idaho and SneakEasy, possibly even Tennessee, are a different kettle-o' fish than the other deeper-draft sharpies, as these flat-run boats are essentially "on-plane" (sorta) while standing still, and can thereby get to above-hullspeed with a very minimal input of horsepower. Some have said they only leave a trail of foam... hardly any wave-creation.  The deeper-draft "pot-bellied" sharpies are true displacement boats, limited to "hullspeed"...as they move a lot more water out-of-the-way to get somewhere.

 

 

Judging from my careful and repeated replays of the YouTube video of that South American "Idaho", there also seems to be a rather amazing capability of "no feathers ruffled" bridging of the wave-crests -- boy, that video really shows a smooth, level ride running with the waves in what appears to be a significant harbor-chop, as seen out the cabin windows...  I have gathered from other posts on the list, that these flat-run boats have totally unexpected, and in-total rather beneficial, handling in moderately choppy conditions.  Of course, there comes a point of waves being larger, where the hull is no longer "bridging" over the wave-crests, and the performance could become downright unpleasant...(burying the needle-bow...?).  but up to that point, it seems remarkably smooth and stable...  see from minute 2:00 to about 2:55 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vox3gnHtAE4

 

I am also guessing that such speed AND seaworthiness has a lot to do with these boats' length to beam ratio... and some of the other recommended boat-forms in thes "River Rat" thread (especially even the flat-run boats from other designers) are much, much "wider" for the length..   Remember, "Idaho" is what, only 5'3" beam on 31' length, "SneakEasy" is only 4'3" on 26'6", "Tennessee" seems to follow suit but a bit broader at 6' beam on 29'

 

 

Comments from those with more ACTUAL experience?

 

Note that such on-top-of-the-water performance ONLY can occur by watching the boat's displacement carefully.... BUT the "Idaho" in the video certainly was suitably-outfitted (full-cabin and all...)

 

Regards,

Wayne Gilham

 

 

 

 

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfMark Albanese
Sent:Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:21 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] River Rat vacation cruiser

 

 

John,

 

The state boat you're describing is theTennessee. If you reduce the larger boats from the series, hoping to get the layouts maybe, that's the boat you'll get.

For some waters, the cabinTopazmight be nice.

Also, Micheal Storrer has done a good job riffing on the squareboat theme.

 

 

 

 

On Aug 29, 2012, at 8:20 PM, ozarknjrat wrote:



 

I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.

Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)

John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

I have a good bit of real world experience with solar power propulsion
on smaller boats.
The one big rule I have learned through all of this is that if your not
in a big hurry, you can set up a good solar powered system with almost
unlimited range for not too much money. regardless of the size of boat,
as long as it is resonably streamlined, 2 knots is the magic number.
You can set up a system that will take you 2 knots for a long long ways
with very little electrical demand. Once you pass the 2 knot mark, the
equipment required to maintain higher speeds increases greatly in cost.
The blue heron which I have just completed is a boat set up for cruising
solely on solar electric power. This boat is the size of a goose and
has 258 watts of solar panel power. The boat has about 375 amp hours of
reserve power which will take it at the magic 2 knots or a little less
for a long long ways without the aid of sunlight. In direct sunlight,
the panels will maintain the 2 knots plus put a little in the batts. The
boat also has a hand crank permanent magnetic generator which puts out
around 30 watts at a maintainable rate. For this size boat, the small
riptide minnkota motors are so efficient and cheap that they are hard to
pass up. I believe that the 2 knots rule applies to larger boats also
and a very liveable slow speed system could built very cheaply. For
much higher speeds, plan on spending a huge amount of money and carry a
whole bunch more weight. Robb




On 8/30/2012 4:34 PM, harrystone.24755 wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
>> Electric Propulsion in a Parallel Hybrid System, the E-Motor can be driven by the fossil fuel engine as a dc generator, the E-Motor can also be used alone when makes sense. A 300 amp hr / 48 System works nicely.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Yes , but again , as Suzanne has already said , at what $$$$$$$ cost ?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
>
> Gold standard would be to seal the entire boat in epoxy.  Outside glass and poxy, inside 2-3 coats of poxy.  That being said, my Michalak Toon2 has poxy from a little above the water line down and in the bottom of the cockpit.  The rest is oil based porch and deck paint.  Trailer sailed and kept in the garage with two years now and no worries.
> John Boy
> Â
>
>
> I have a blog! Âhttp://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/
>
> “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.”Â
>
> Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ozarknjrat <oetting@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:59 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser
>
>
> Â
> Thanks John. I was thinking Aquatek with 3/8 for the sides with Pason butt joints, double layer bottom, either 3/8 x 2, 3/8+ 1/2, or 1/2 x 2. I think a weight study and overall panel layout may drive that decision.
>
> I still have big questions about the need for any epoxy or epoxy+fiberglass on the bottom and topsides, given the dry sail nature of the boat. Any thoughts?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Boy <t1ro2003@> wrote:
> >
> > Pretty cool design idea.  I've always wanted something similar for down her in Florida.  I'd go with 3/8 sides and double planked 1/2 bottom.  Not sure which state boat to borrow from but definitely name it a Pennsy.  On the stern, I'd continue the top all the way back with locomotive style "C" bracing, see Weston Farmer's design Robinson CrusoeÂhttp://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/wf/robinsoncrusoe/index.htm%c3%82%c2%a0%c3%82%c2%a0
> >
> > Also look at Mik Storer's Venice canal boat ideas. Âhttp://www.storerboatplans.com/Venice/Venice.html
> > John Boy
> > Â
> >
> >
> > I have a blog! Âhttp://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/
> >
> > “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.”Â
> >
> > Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: ozarknjrat <oetting@>
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:20 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] River Rat vacation cruiser
> >
> >
> > Â
> > I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.
> >
> > Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)
> >
> > John
> >
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> >
>
John,
You mention Eastern PA, may I assume Delaware River and Bay? As Peter Vanderwaart mentioned, that water can kick up in quite a nasty way. A good seaworthy craft, a cabin with fixed opening windows instead of vinyl curtains and a self bailing cockpit would be ideal for those moments when that unpredictable summer squall hits.... And sooner or later when on your week long cruise, you will run into bad weather that will make you regret any thoughts of an open cabin. Your mock up is a brilliant idea. Ideas? Encapsulate your hard work with glass or xynole with epoxy. It will be money well spent and will protect your investment. Powertrain? Stay outboard. Electric will be very costly, with added weight and greater complexity. There's not many marinas south of Philadelphia that can accomodate charging your battery bank so you must have a generator, adding further complexity. As for a boat idea, I like the Champlain with it's fixed cabin that will keep you out of the weather (those bugs down in Delaware Bay are beasts! Way out of your design length is the Wyoming, updated version with the aft fixed cabin for additional berthing. It would be perfect for the kids. Phil had an interesting concept in the old Coastal Cruising Magazine called Mothership, sort of a cut-down Illinois at 32 feet or a harbinger for that much bigger "State" boat. I am not sure if that boat ever made it into the plans stage by Phil. Interesting topic and will be keeping abreast of your future plans. I am at Bordentown, not far from the Delaware. Doing up a backyard Microtrawler...... There are many creeks and rivers here on this river where a Bolger State boat design would be perfect!
Mike
Talking about 'howler' !

What would a charging system look like to feed this array of electricity-storage ?  And the cost would be breath-taking.  So let's revise the $$$$$s numbers upwards substantially...

Even if you look at those impressive deep-cycle 6"x9"x30"(hip-high) 2V cells at 137AH you might save some money per capacity but , oh boy, the wiring alone to connect 24 cells to get the 137 nominal at 48V.  To reach 80kW of storage we need ...how MANY ???  I am clearly getting lost here !? 
.....

On little-ol' simple plywood pot-belly sharpie shape LILY of 1995 the saltwater-correct trolling motor, batteries, charger, wiring, breakers etc. ran around $1600 combined, all to offer a very quiet max. of 1.1HP and 11x4-prop 3.7 kts for 7-8hrs.  Perfectly elegant day-ride for 4 adults.  With full positive buoyancy.  But that's it. Adapting a different prop for more speed would no doubt do that - but likely at greater consumption.

As so often true in life, little chance of 'Free Lunches' with electric power either.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

It would be useful to address the technical and daily-utility challenges rather than reciting the sales-pitch that is as old as every form of electric propulsion...
And for a clearly delineated range of uses electric power is very appropriate.  For other uses it is not.

Hard numbers (and I hope I made a real 'howler' of a mistake here..):
1 HP is 730 watts or something. 
10HP = 7.3 KW.
To make affordable deep-cycle lead-acid batteries survive say 700-1000 cycles at 7.3 KW/hour, the necessary battery-bank should be large enough to not draw more than 10% per hour of quoted capacity amounting to, say, a need to stow 73 KW at 90% or more like 80+ KW overall nominal capacity.

(On 15'6" x 1500lbs max. displacement #627 LILY, we found and tested extensively and confirmed wisdom quoted elsewhere that on lead-acid batteries a 10% draw per capacity is conservative enough to give the batteries half a chance of a longer life.)  

At the 48V quoted, you'd look at 8 units of 6V deep-cycle 'Golf-Cart' batteries to get that voltage at 215 nominal rating which amounts to something like 10.3 KW capacity at 920lbs for the set.

But it seems we'd need 80+ KW nominal capacity to 'burn' 10HP every hour without ruining those batteries in no time.  Which would mean 8x that battery set for 64 units and thus some 7400lbs of said medium+-duty battery-model at a cost of 'group-discount' of $150/per x 64 units to come to $9600.-.   Plus motor, controls, shaft, prop, gear-box (?), cables, breakers, etc for say $15k ?!  You may find the need to add another say $5000.- to that battery-cost if you go with gel-type batteries.  And now you are tickling $20k...for 10HP for a day for some 700-perhaps 1000 days - plus electricity, tie-up fees etc.  
Justifiable perhaps on your own 'gated' lake.  Not very attractive for real cruising.

Between weight and volume none of that fits on TENNESSEE,  not even a WINDERMERE-38, not a 51' x 8' WYOMING etc. etc. Mighty 63'x10' ILLINOIS could carry that weight handily but would need at least 4-times that juice to move her reliably in protected environs for one day ?!!  
......
Now, how to recharge that amount of energy into any type battery - be it Lead Acid or the soon-to-come Gold/Virgin-Breath/Unobtainium type ?
On the RiverRat E-Cruiser we'd need 8.0 KW for say 8 hrs = 58.4 KW. 
 
How would you get this back into the batteries via a standard 15-amp 110VAC outlet allowing at best a bit over 1600Watts per hour ?
That would take over 36 hrs 'wide-open' without the necessary tapering/step-charge current, amounting to perhaps 40-44 hrs net to (hopefully) at best 90+% charge of nominal capacity.  This amounts to a drive-time versus charge-time ratio of over 1 hrs running to 5 hours of charging.  Not attractive.
  
Even if you can handle the weight and the cost - advanced batteries will weigh less but cost way more per capacity - what kind of 'cruising' would that be ?
While there is no doubt  'an app for that' to track down and reserve that amount of time on the next 'Outlet', what's the value of a power-cruiser fretting from outlet-point to outlet-point when the point is to 'get away from it all for a few...'

Not encouraging realities in my book.
As I was saying, I hope there is a massive mistake in my quickie numbers there somewhere... 
Alas, one much-publicized 44-foot such cruiser - custom-designed and perfectly 'spec'd' out - was after 6 or 8 years converted to sizable diesel-machinery...
Cold hard realities it seems.  Little left for speculation.


Susanne Altenburger, PB&F


----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:06 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

Use 4000 usd, now realize the Value over the life of the Boat. What Value is obtained from that cost, call it an investment if you like.

I have heard from dozens of family members that the noise & smell made the boating experience daunting and that the E-Prop made it enjoyable, where the boating became more of a family event, what type of Value goes to that ? Everyone speaks to cost without comparing value. 


-----Original Message-----
From: harrystone.24755 <ph687079@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:35 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
>
> Electric Propulsion in a Parallel Hybrid System, the E-Motor can be driven by the fossil fuel engine as a dc generator, the E-Motor can also be used alone when makes sense. A 300 amp hr / 48 System works nicely.
>
>
>

Yes , but again , as Suzanne has already said , at what $$$$$$$ cost ?

Gold standard would be to seal the entire boat in epoxy.  Outside glass and poxy, inside 2-3 coats of poxy.  That being said, my Michalak Toon2 has poxy from a little above the water line down and in the bottom of the cockpit.  The rest is oil based porch and deck paint.  Trailer sailed and kept in the garage with two years now and no worries.
John Boy
 



“Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 
Robert Louis Stevenson,Treasure Island

From:ozarknjrat <oetting@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:59 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
Thanks John. I was thinking Aquatek with 3/8 for the sides with Pason butt joints, double layer bottom, either 3/8 x 2, 3/8+ 1/2, or 1/2 x 2. I think a weight study and overall panel layout may drive that decision.

I still have big questions about the need for any epoxy or epoxy+fiberglass on the bottom and topsides, given the dry sail nature of the boat. Any thoughts?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
>
> Pretty cool design idea.  I've always wanted something similar for down her in Florida.  I'd go with 3/8 sides and double planked 1/2 bottom.  Not sure which state boat to borrow from but definitely name it a Pennsy.  On the stern, I'd continue the top all the way back with locomotive style "C" bracing, see Weston Farmer's design Robinson Crusoe http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/wf/robinsoncrusoe/index.htm  
>
> Also look at Mik Storer's Venice canal boat ideas.  http://www.storerboatplans.com/Venice/Venice.html
> John Boy
>  
>
>
> I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/
>
> “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 
>
> Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ozarknjrat <oetting@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:20 PM
> Subject: [bolger] River Rat vacation cruiser
>
>
>  
> I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.
>
> Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)
>
> John
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
>



It would be useful to address the technical and daily-utility challenges rather than reciting the sales-pitch that is as old as every form of electric propulsion...
And for a clearly delineated range of uses electric power is very appropriate.  For other uses it is not.

Hard numbers (and I hope I made a real 'howler' of a mistake here..):
1 HP is 730 watts or something. 
10HP = 7.3 KW.
To make affordable deep-cycle lead-acid batteries survive say 700-1000 cycles at 7.3 KW/hour, the necessary battery-bank should be large enough to not draw more than 10% per hour of quoted capacity amounting to, say, a need to stow 73 KW at 90% or more like 80+ KW overall nominal capacity.

(On 15'6" x 1500lbs max. displacement #627 LILY, we found and tested extensively and confirmed wisdom quoted elsewhere that on lead-acid batteries a 10% draw per capacity is conservative enough to give the batteries half a chance of a longer life.)  

At the 48V quoted, you'd look at 8 units of 6V deep-cycle 'Golf-Cart' batteries to get that voltage at 215 nominal rating which amounts to something like 10.3 KW capacity at 920lbs for the set.

But it seems we'd need 80+ KW nominal capacity to 'burn' 10HP every hour without ruining those batteries in no time.  Which would mean 8x that battery set for 64 units and thus some 7400lbs of said medium+-duty battery-model at a cost of 'group-discount' of $150/per x 64 units to come to $9600.-.   Plus motor, controls, shaft, prop, gear-box (?), cables, breakers, etc for say $15k ?!  You may find the need to add another say $5000.- to that battery-cost if you go with gel-type batteries.  And now you are tickling $20k...for 10HP for a day for some 700-perhaps 1000 days - plus electricity, tie-up fees etc.  
Justifiable perhaps on your own 'gated' lake.  Not very attractive for real cruising.

Between weight and volume none of that fits on TENNESSEE,  not even a WINDERMERE-38, not a 51' x 8' WYOMING etc. etc. Mighty 63'x10' ILLINOIS could carry that weight handily but would need at least 4-times that juice to move her reliably in protected environs for one day ?!!  
......
Now, how to recharge that amount of energy into any type battery - be it Lead Acid or the soon-to-come Gold/Virgin-Breath/Unobtainium type ?
On the RiverRat E-Cruiser we'd need 8.0 KW for say 8 hrs = 58.4 KW. 
 
How would you get this back into the batteries via a standard 15-amp 110VAC outlet allowing at best a bit over 1600Watts per hour ?
That would take over 36 hrs 'wide-open' without the necessary tapering/step-charge current, amounting to perhaps 40-44 hrs net to (hopefully) at best 90+% charge of nominal capacity.  This amounts to a drive-time versus charge-time ratio of over 1 hrs running to 5 hours of charging.  Not attractive.
  
Even if you can handle the weight and the cost - advanced batteries will weigh less but cost way more per capacity - what kind of 'cruising' would that be ?
While there is no doubt  'an app for that' to track down and reserve that amount of time on the next 'Outlet', what's the value of a power-cruiser fretting from outlet-point to outlet-point when the point is to 'get away from it all for a few...'

Not encouraging realities in my book.
As I was saying, I hope there is a massive mistake in my quickie numbers there somewhere... 
Alas, one much-publicized 44-foot such cruiser - custom-designed and perfectly 'spec'd' out - was after 6 or 8 years converted to sizable diesel-machinery...
Cold hard realities it seems.  Little left for speculation.


Susanne Altenburger, PB&F


----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:06 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

Use 4000 usd, now realize the Value over the life of the Boat. What Value is obtained from that cost, call it an investment if you like.

I have heard from dozens of family members that the noise & smell made the boating experience daunting and that the E-Prop made it enjoyable, where the boating became more of a family event, what type of Value goes to that ? Everyone speaks to cost without comparing value. 


-----Original Message-----
From: harrystone.24755 <ph687079@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:35 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
>
> Electric Propulsion in a Parallel Hybrid System, the E-Motor can be driven by the fossil fuel engine as a dc generator, the E-Motor can also be used alone when makes sense. A 300 amp hr / 48 System works nicely.
>
>
>

Yes , but again , as Suzanne has already said , at what $$$$$$$ cost ?

Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

I tend more to the left handed paddle than the right as my “control logic” seems to be more biased that way, or should I say, fine tuned that way?  Part of the attraction of an e-power boat or a steam launch, or many other contrivances over paddles and oars (which I have always kept handy) is that some of us like to play with the mechanical toys on our water toys.  I am one of those I suppose, as my wife occasionally asks me what I am doing with all those lathes, shapers, and milling machines in the shop.  Besides collecting dust, that is…   Regards, SSK

 

P.S. Now that the MAIB articles on SEAPAS 3 are down to the joys of finishing details on hatches, etc.  What is next on the new designs to look at?? 

 

From:philbolger@... [mailto:philbolger@...]
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:56 PM
To:SSK; bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

As to soda-fizz (versus "e-fuss"), what's involved in making the stuff to then be injected into the can/bottle ?  Perhaps good not to know ?!
 
I assume that 'River Rat Dad's kids will find themselves reasonably well-informed on hard scientific realities they are facing one way or the other...  They might end dipping the modern equivalent of chem-class indicator-paper over the side to measure the relative water-acidity.  Word is that certain spots along L.I.-Sound and the Pacific Northwest feature interesting emerging case-studies; some marine-biology folks are pessimistic about the fate of scallops for instance...

Folks have been sneaking around with quiet paddles for many millennia now...and they had to be good at that to feed their families.  Left-handed or Right-handed won't matter, omni-direction thrusting easy, with very sophisticated control-logic between the ears.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F


     

----- Original Message -----

From:SSK

Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:44 PM

Subject:Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

Say, don’t forget to tell people to not buy carbonated drinks too!  All that CO2 in the Pepsi has to offgas somewhere.. ? 

In general I agree with your observations on e-power systems on boats, but think I still want an e-power dink for fishing in the river and going animal watching.  No wayto sneak up on Bigfoot with an ICE blasting away.

Wish I had some of the silver based batteries we experimented with at NUSC, Newport in the‘70’s.  Talk about your expensive energy storage!

Regards, SSK

-----

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Use 4000 usd, now realize the Value over the life of the Boat. What Value is obtained from that cost, call it an investment if you like.
I have heard from dozens of family members that the noise & smell made the boating experience daunting and that the E-Prop made it enjoyable, where the boating became more of a family event, what type of Value goes to that ? Everyone speaks to cost without comparing value. 


-----Original Message-----
From: harrystone.24755 <ph687079@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 4:35 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
>
> Electric Propulsion in a Parallel Hybrid System, the E-Motor can be driven by the fossil fuel engine as a dc generator, the E-Motor can also be used alone when makes sense. A 300 amp hr / 48 System works nicely.
>
>
>

Yes , but again , as Suzanne has already said , at what $$$$$$$ cost ?

Re: River Rat vacation cruiser
As to soda-fizz (versus "e-fuss"), what's involved in making the stuff to then be injected into the can/bottle ?  Perhaps good not to know ?!
 
I assume that 'River Rat Dad's kids will find themselves reasonably well-informed on hard scientific realities they are facing one way or the other...  They might end dipping the modern equivalent of chem-class indicator-paper over the side to measure the relative water-acidity.  Word is that certain spots along L.I.-Sound and the Pacific Northwest feature interesting emerging case-studies; some marine-biology folks are pessimistic about the fate of scallops for instance...

Folks have been sneaking around with quiet paddles for many millennia now...and they had to be good at that to feed their families.  Left-handed or Right-handed won't matter, omni-direction thrusting easy, with very sophisticated control-logic between the ears.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F


     
----- Original Message -----
From:SSK
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:44 PM
Subject:Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

Say, don’t forget to tell people to not buy carbonated drinks too!  All that CO2 in the Pepsi has to offgas somewhere..? 

In general I agree with your observations on e-power systems on boats, but think I still want an e-power dink for fishing in the river and going animal watching.  No wayto sneak up on Bigfoot with an ICE blasting away.

Wish I had some of the silver based batteries we experimented with at NUSC, Newport in the‘70’s.  Talk about your expensive energy storage!

Regards, SSK

-----

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5235 - Release Date: 08/30/12

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Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5235 - Release Date: 08/30/12

Well, if 'technology-galore' is the game and we are happy to invest money, debugging-time, plus volumes and weights into parallel systems, then we're off to the races - and way off the track of affordability etc. 

If techno-focus is overwhelming, we should look at that class of US battleships in the 20s with propellers driven electrically.  But at what cost ?!  Systems were removed some 10 years later if I recollect correctly.  Not reconsidered for many generations of naval officers. 
     Only recently a revisit but under quite different parameters.  With advanced diesel-engines and the willingness to budget multiple smaller such units to be used in various numbers and for various demands such as on cruise-ships or on USN's LHD-8.  The challenge is cost, complexity, and thus returns for the investment. 
On a TENNESSEE-type and scale such a proposal might cover a fair bit of one of the kids' state-college education...

Susanne Altenburger
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:08 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

Electric Propulsion in a Parallel Hybrid System, the E-Motor can be driven by the fossil fuel engine as a dc generator, the E-Motor can also be used alone when makes sense. A 300 amp hr / 48 System works nicely. 


-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 3:36 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
As the sole propulsion on a power-cruiser, the "fuss" are a range of 'No-Free-Lunch'-type unavoidable hard-realities. 

Modest Electric launch LILY (#627) was/is my design - with the prototype under cover visible from my window - and a simple and solid exercise as to certain hard parameters.  Traveling with least noise is indeed agreeable - until there is no more 'noise' and you get out the paddles/oars.  And no refills while adrift.

The "facts" have been in for many years, actually now about a century in terms of the basics involved.  There have been minor improvements on motors and big improvements on batteries per given weight - just not per given Dollar on an affordable family cruiser and thus on range.  

But even if you could afford a TESLA-type budget, how would you recharge the batteries ?  How many days tied up at the marina will it take to arrive at 90+% charge-levels, at what cost ?

Adding a 2-4HP generator as a 'range-extender' on a power-boat will not suffice on anything of the hull-size proposed, especially in light of the unavoidable losses involved to getting 110AC generator output to whatever onboard DC-propulsion-Voltage.  This either suggests the need for much larger battery-banks or just staying all internal-combustion to begin with; listening to a generator does not sound any better than an outboard.  And since you'll need to carry gasoline, where are the advantages on a power-cruiser ?

We stated a long time ago that all e-propulsion on a power-cruiser works at best in a well-controlled/predictable environment where distances, weather, and recharging stations can be expected to 'collaborate', i.e. a moderate-size lake or a canal-system with well-spaced e-outlets.  Beyond that, things begin to thin out...  And that assumes that the outlet plus your extension-cord can flow better than 13-15 amps @ 110-Volt AC ?!  A 220 VAC @200amp hook-up would be very agreeable, but nowhere available in civilian marinas - even if you were willing to pay per foot every night planning your cruise from outlet to outlet...

This has all been done.  Not cheap.  Not necessarily reliable/durable in a power-boat use.  And typically without obviously accessible 'magic' in terms of net practical range and hard recharging-dictates.  Even LiPos would offer no benefits for recharging-juice necessary.

You can't take propulsion-power out of batteries without first putting it in and then recharging that quantity again and again routinely. 
As with e-cars, CNG/LNG- or hydrogen-systems, the infrastructure just is not there - if you were willing to have your cruise dictated by outlet-availability, that is.   

No "fuss" or prejudice, just hard realities.  Might as well go all 'solar' and leverage our personal star to warm this planet and incidentally offer wind-power by investing in spars, sails, lines and use this quite potent propulsion-technology.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:56 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
I will always have a difficult time understanding the "fuss" regarding E-Prop. Basically, any gas/diesel engine that starts with a Key,
has the similar design to an E-Prop System, Battery, Electric Motor. A Hybrid System also makes perfect sense in many cases. 
Traveling on the water with minimal noise, no fuel smell, less pollution is an enjoyable experience by all accounts so far. I have yet to hear anyone say that they did not enjoy it. 
Range is an issue that can be addressed once the facts are in, that being how far & how fast ?.
Geo


-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
Always interesting to consider e-propulsion.
     Electric propulsion is neither cheap nor light for the limited range, not-to-mention potential reliability issues in salt-water environs.

I doubt that you would get close to having enough 'real-estate' for full-time e-supply without major battery-banks and indeed only limited range per running episode between re-charging sessions, assuming predictable/adequate sun-shine.
And the weight of the panels can really add up on a narrow-ish boat.

All this would take you a long way from the underlying principles of simplicity of TENNESSEE, MINNESOTA, DAKOTA, DELAWARE, and even TOPAZ, #679, SACPAS-3 etc.  Be prepared for the e-propulsion to quickly over-shadow hull-construction materials-plus.
No-expense-spared all-e-power cruisers have not been 'break-throughs' on a broad range of fronts.
 
And there is no new technology that makes any of this cheaper.  State-of-the-art batteries are very able - but at an astonishing price.

If you want to 'green' your life and teach your children serious lessons of prioritizing towards doable sustainability
- super-insulate your home one room at a time,
- cut commuting distances,
- down-size the car/truck sand add a trailer for rare full-load scenaria,
- avoid casual stratospheric jaunts to see Aunt Millie at the other end of the continent
etc. etc.

You might be happiest to take a stock design, build it before the next cruising season, and purr along with 10-25HP four-stroke large-prop outboard.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 


 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level
> modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill,

You are smart to do the engineering on a "solar electric primary" to
confirm the feasibility of that plan. I recall reading the PB&F write-ups about
their engineering that they did for the electrical capacity needed to make
Lily (and Electric Spartina) functional E-boats. There was some
pretty major electrical input required, so I would be concerned that a
PV array sized to fit on the limited space available on top of the
cabin roof could come even close to the power actually required.
Also, the battery bank probably would need to weigh above a thousand
pounds, not a few hundred. If you want an Eboat, then that says to me
you would be better to considered a deeper draft to give you the
needed displacement to carry that ballast.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
>
> Electric Propulsion in a Parallel Hybrid System, the E-Motor can be driven by the fossil fuel engine as a dc generator, the E-Motor can also be used alone when makes sense. A 300 amp hr / 48 System works nicely.
>
>
>


Yes , but again , as Suzanne has already said , at what $$$$$$$ cost ?
Electric Propulsion in a Parallel Hybrid System, the E-Motor can be driven by the fossil fuel engine as a dc generator, the E-Motor can also be used alone when makes sense. A 300 amp hr / 48 System works nicely. 


-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 3:36 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
As the sole propulsion on a power-cruiser, the "fuss" are a range of 'No-Free-Lunch'-type unavoidable hard-realities. 

Modest Electric launch LILY (#627) was/is my design - with the prototype under cover visible from my window - and a simple and solid exercise as to certain hard parameters.  Traveling with least noise is indeed agreeable - until there is no more 'noise' and you get out the paddles/oars.  And no refills while adrift.

The "facts" have been in for many years, actually now about a century in terms of the basics involved.  There have been minor improvements on motors and big improvements on batteries per given weight - just not per given Dollar on an affordable family cruiser and thus on range.  

But even if you could afford a TESLA-type budget, how would you recharge the batteries ?  How many days tied up at the marina will it take to arrive at 90+% charge-levels, at what cost ?

Adding a 2-4HP generator as a 'range-extender' on a power-boat will not suffice on anything of the hull-size proposed, especially in light of the unavoidable losses involved to getting 110AC generator output to whatever onboard DC-propulsion-Voltage.  This either suggests the need for much larger battery-banks or just staying all internal-combustion to begin with; listening to a generator does not sound any better than an outboard.  And since you'll need to carry gasoline, where are the advantages on a power-cruiser ?

We stated a long time ago that all e-propulsion on a power-cruiser works at best in a well-controlled/predictable environment where distances, weather, and recharging stations can be expected to 'collaborate', i.e. a moderate-size lake or a canal-system with well-spaced e-outlets.  Beyond that, things begin to thin out...  And that assumes that the outlet plus your extension-cord can flow better than 13-15 amps @ 110-Volt AC ?!  A 220 VAC @200amp hook-up would be very agreeable, but nowhere available in civilian marinas - even if you were willing to pay per foot every night planning your cruise from outlet to outlet...

This has all been done.  Not cheap.  Not necessarily reliable/durable in a power-boat use.  And typically without obviously accessible 'magic' in terms of net practical range and hard recharging-dictates.  Even LiPos would offer no benefits for recharging-juice necessary.

You can't take propulsion-power out of batteries without first putting it in and then recharging that quantity again and again routinely. 
As with e-cars, CNG/LNG- or hydrogen-systems, the infrastructure just is not there - if you were willing to have your cruise dictated by outlet-availability, that is.   

No "fuss" or prejudice, just hard realities.  Might as well go all 'solar' and leverage our personal star to warm this planet and incidentally offer wind-power by investing in spars, sails, lines and use this quite potent propulsion-technology.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:56 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
I will always have a difficult time understanding the "fuss" regarding E-Prop. Basically, any gas/diesel engine that starts with a Key,
has the similar design to an E-Prop System, Battery, Electric Motor. A Hybrid System also makes perfect sense in many cases. 
Traveling on the water with minimal noise, no fuel smell, less pollution is an enjoyable experience by all accounts so far. I have yet to hear anyone say that they did not enjoy it. 
Range is an issue that can be addressed once the facts are in, that being how far & how fast ?.
Geo


-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
Always interesting to consider e-propulsion.
     Electric propulsion is neither cheap nor light for the limited range, not-to-mention potential reliability issues in salt-water environs.

I doubt that you would get close to having enough 'real-estate' for full-time e-supply without major battery-banks and indeed only limited range per running episode between re-charging sessions, assuming predictable/adequate sun-shine.
And the weight of the panels can really add up on a narrow-ish boat.

All this would take you a long way from the underlying principles of simplicity of TENNESSEE, MINNESOTA, DAKOTA, DELAWARE, and even TOPAZ, #679, SACPAS-3 etc.  Be prepared for the e-propulsion to quickly over-shadow hull-construction materials-plus.
No-expense-spared all-e-power cruisers have not been 'break-throughs' on a broad range of fronts.
 
And there is no new technology that makes any of this cheaper.  State-of-the-art batteries are very able - but at an astonishing price.

If you want to 'green' your life and teach your children serious lessons of prioritizing towards doable sustainability
- super-insulate your home one room at a time,
- cut commuting distances,
- down-size the car/truck sand add a trailer for rare full-load scenaria,
- avoid casual stratospheric jaunts to see Aunt Millie at the other end of the continent
etc. etc.

You might be happiest to take a stock design, build it before the next cruising season, and purr along with 10-25HP four-stroke large-prop outboard.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 


 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level
> modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill,

You are smart to do the engineering on a "solar electric primary" to
confirm the feasibility of that plan. I recall reading the PB&F write-ups about
their engineering that they did for the electrical capacity needed to make
Lily (and Electric Spartina) functional E-boats. There was some
pretty major electrical input required, so I would be concerned that a
PV array sized to fit on the limited space available on top of the
cabin roof could come even close to the power actually required.
Also, the battery bank probably would need to weigh above a thousand
pounds, not a few hundred. If you want an Eboat, then that says to me
you would be better to considered a deeper draft to give you the
needed displacement to carry that ballast.
I should have added to this list of should-dos towards personal 'eco-sainthood': 
- Put the solar panels on your house where they do perpetual duty to really justify that investment incl. that system's inherent carbon-footprint.
- Set up a bio-Diesel-based diesel drive-train on the boat, assuming your local supply-chain is plausible and actually 'green'.  Cost v. benefit may still favor the mostly fossil-fuel-based outboard
- And, of course, examine the carbon-footprint of sail-power versus your actual expected mileage per cruising year;  it might make a 10-25 HP outboard look astonishing good all around.  With a cover and sound-deadening towards cockpit and cabin you may find that water- and wind-noises may prove quite 'intrusive'...

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F     
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:53 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

Always interesting to consider e-propulsion.
     Electric propulsion is neither cheap nor light for the limited range, not-to-mention potential reliability issues in salt-water environs.

I doubt that you would get close to having enough 'real-estate' for full-time e-supply without major battery-banks and indeed only limited range per running episode between re-charging sessions, assuming predictable/adequate sun-shine.
And the weight of the panels can really add up on a narrow-ish boat.

All this would take you a long way from the underlying principles of simplicity of TENNESSEE, MINNESOTA, DAKOTA, DELAWARE, and even TOPAZ, #679, SACPAS-3 etc.  Be prepared for the e-propulsion to quickly over-shadow hull-construction materials-plus.
No-expense-spared all-e-power cruisers have not been 'break-throughs' on a broad range of fronts.
 
And there is no new technology that makes any of this cheaper.  State-of-the-art batteries are very able - but at an astonishing price.

If you want to 'green' your life and teach your children serious lessons of prioritizing towards doable sustainability
- super-insulate your home one room at a time,
- cut commuting distances,
- down-size the car/truck sand add a trailer for rare full-load scenaria,
- avoid casual stratospheric jaunts to see Aunt Millie at the other end of the continent
etc. etc.

You might be happiest to take a stock design, build it before the next cruising season, and purr along with 10-25HP four-stroke large-prop outboard.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 


 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level
> modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill,

You are smart to do the engineering on a "solar electric primary" to
confirm the feasibility of that plan. I recall reading the PB&F write-ups about
their engineering that they did for the electrical capacity needed to make
Lily (and Electric Spartina) functional E-boats. There was some
pretty major electrical input required, so I would be concerned that a
PV array sized to fit on the limited space available on top of the
cabin roof could come even close to the power actually required.
Also, the battery bank probably would need to weigh above a thousand
pounds, not a few hundred. If you want an Eboat, then that says to me
you would be better to considered a deeper draft to give you the
needed displacement to carry that ballast.

As the sole propulsion on a power-cruiser, the "fuss" are a range of 'No-Free-Lunch'-type unavoidable hard-realities. 

Modest Electric launch LILY (#627) was/is my design - with the prototype under cover visible from my window - and a simple and solid exercise as to certain hard parameters.  Traveling with least noise is indeed agreeable - until there is no more 'noise' and you get out the paddles/oars.  And no refills while adrift.

The "facts" have been in for many years, actually now about a century in terms of the basics involved.  There have been minor improvements on motors and big improvements on batteries per given weight - just not per given Dollar on an affordable family cruiser and thus on range.  

But even if you could afford a TESLA-type budget, how would you recharge the batteries ?  How many days tied up at the marina will it take to arrive at 90+% charge-levels, at what cost ?

Adding a 2-4HP generator as a 'range-extender' on a power-boat will not suffice on anything of the hull-size proposed, especially in light of the unavoidable losses involved to getting 110AC generator output to whatever onboard DC-propulsion-Voltage.  This either suggests the need for much larger battery-banks or just staying all internal-combustion to begin with; listening to a generator does not sound any better than an outboard.  And since you'll need to carry gasoline, where are the advantages on a power-cruiser ?

We stated a long time ago that all e-propulsion on a power-cruiser works at best in a well-controlled/predictable environment where distances, weather, and recharging stations can be expected to 'collaborate', i.e. a moderate-size lake or a canal-system with well-spaced e-outlets.  Beyond that, things begin to thin out...  And that assumes that the outlet plus your extension-cord can flow better than 13-15 amps @ 110-Volt AC ?!  A 220 VAC @200amp hook-up would be very agreeable, but nowhere available in civilian marinas - even if you were willing to pay per foot every night planning your cruise from outlet to outlet...

This has all been done.  Not cheap.  Not necessarily reliable/durable in a power-boat use.  And typically without obviously accessible 'magic' in terms of net practical range and hard recharging-dictates.  Even LiPos would offer no benefits for recharging-juice necessary.

You can't take propulsion-power out of batteries without first putting it in and then recharging that quantity again and again routinely. 
As with e-cars, CNG/LNG- or hydrogen-systems, the infrastructure just is not there - if you were willing to have your cruise dictated by outlet-availability, that is.   

No "fuss" or prejudice, just hard realities.  Might as well go all 'solar' and leverage our personal star to warm this planet and incidentally offer wind-power by investing in spars, sails, lines and use this quite potent propulsion-technology.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:56 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

I will always have a difficult time understanding the "fuss" regarding E-Prop. Basically, any gas/diesel engine that starts with a Key,

has the similar design to an E-Prop System, Battery, Electric Motor. A Hybrid System also makes perfect sense in many cases. 
Traveling on the water with minimal noise, no fuel smell, less pollution is an enjoyable experience by all accounts so far. I have yet to hear anyone say that they did not enjoy it. 
Range is an issue that can be addressed once the facts are in, that being how far & how fast ?.
Geo


-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
Always interesting to consider e-propulsion.
     Electric propulsion is neither cheap nor light for the limited range, not-to-mention potential reliability issues in salt-water environs.

I doubt that you would get close to having enough 'real-estate' for full-time e-supply without major battery-banks and indeed only limited range per running episode between re-charging sessions, assuming predictable/adequate sun-shine.
And the weight of the panels can really add up on a narrow-ish boat.

All this would take you a long way from the underlying principles of simplicity of TENNESSEE, MINNESOTA, DAKOTA, DELAWARE, and even TOPAZ, #679, SACPAS-3 etc.  Be prepared for the e-propulsion to quickly over-shadow hull-construction materials-plus.
No-expense-spared all-e-power cruisers have not been 'break-throughs' on a broad range of fronts.
 
And there is no new technology that makes any of this cheaper.  State-of-the-art batteries are very able - but at an astonishing price.

If you want to 'green' your life and teach your children serious lessons of prioritizing towards doable sustainability
- super-insulate your home one room at a time,
- cut commuting distances,
- down-size the car/truck sand add a trailer for rare full-load scenaria,
- avoid casual stratospheric jaunts to see Aunt Millie at the other end of the continent
etc. etc.

You might be happiest to take a stock design, build it before the next cruising season, and purr along with 10-25HP four-stroke large-prop outboard.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 


 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level
> modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill,

You are smart to do the engineering on a "solar electric primary" to
confirm the feasibility of that plan. I recall reading the PB&F write-ups about
their engineering that they did for the electrical capacity needed to make
Lily (and Electric Spartina) functional E-boats. There was some
pretty major electrical input required, so I would be concerned that a
PV array sized to fit on the limited space available on top of the
cabin roof could come even close to the power actually required.
Also, the battery bank probably would need to weigh above a thousand
pounds, not a few hundred. If you want an Eboat, then that says to me
you would be better to considered a deeper draft to give you the
needed displacement to carry that ballast.

I didn't see a specific mention of cruising speed as an input variable. Perhaps I missed it.

At the horsepower mentioned, you are limited to hull speed, say 6 or 7 knots for a 30-footer. A non-planing boat can have substantial rocker and, therefore, displacement.

If you are thinking of Delaware Bay and Cape May - and why not? - you need seaworthiness. It has a reputation as a nasty bit water.

On Aug 30, 2012, at 7:30 AM, BruceHallman wrote:

The 26ft Delaware
has a deeper bottom and more displacement.

__Righ

Right. Delaware is quite like John's mockup. BTW the links back to the group files are a nice addition to you isometrics page.
I will always have a difficult time understanding the "fuss" regarding E-Prop. Basically, any gas/diesel engine that starts with a Key,
has the similar design to an E-Prop System, Battery, Electric Motor. A Hybrid System also makes perfect sense in many cases. 
Traveling on the water with minimal noise, no fuel smell, less pollution is an enjoyable experience by all accounts so far. I have yet to hear anyone say that they did not enjoy it. 
Range is an issue that can be addressed once the facts are in, that being how far & how fast ?.
Geo


-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger <philbolger@...>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
Always interesting to consider e-propulsion.
     Electric propulsion is neither cheap nor light for the limited range, not-to-mention potential reliability issues in salt-water environs.

I doubt that you would get close to having enough 'real-estate' for full-time e-supply without major battery-banks and indeed only limited range per running episode between re-charging sessions, assuming predictable/adequate sun-shine.
And the weight of the panels can really add up on a narrow-ish boat.

All this would take you a long way from the underlying principles of simplicity of TENNESSEE, MINNESOTA, DAKOTA, DELAWARE, and even TOPAZ, #679, SACPAS-3 etc.  Be prepared for the e-propulsion to quickly over-shadow hull-construction materials-plus.
No-expense-spared all-e-power cruisers have not been 'break-throughs' on a broad range of fronts.
 
And there is no new technology that makes any of this cheaper.  State-of-the-art batteries are very able - but at an astonishing price.

If you want to 'green' your life and teach your children serious lessons of prioritizing towards doable sustainability
- super-insulate your home one room at a time,
- cut commuting distances,
- down-size the car/truck sand add a trailer for rare full-load scenaria,
- avoid casual stratospheric jaunts to see Aunt Millie at the other end of the continent
etc. etc.

You might be happiest to take a stock design, build it before the next cruising season, and purr along with 10-25HP four-stroke large-prop outboard.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 
> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level
> modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill,

You are smart to do the engineering on a "solar electric primary" to
confirm the feasibility of that plan. I recall reading the PB&F write-ups about
their engineering that they did for the electrical capacity needed to make
Lily (and Electric Spartina) functional E-boats. There was some
pretty major electrical input required, so I would be concerned that a
PV array sized to fit on the limited space available on top of the
cabin roof could come even close to the power actually required.
Also, the battery bank probably would need to weigh above a thousand
pounds, not a few hundred. If you want an Eboat, then that says to me
you would be better to considered a deeper draft to give you the
needed displacement to carry that ballast.
Not so much disagreeing with Susanne but simply a quick note from someone who has been using electric propulsion for almost a decade on our sailboat...

Electric propulsion of the DIY variety using off the shelf golf cart components actually is quite affordable. Most marine systems I've seen or used (we currently are using an Electric Yacht system on our CAL 34 http://www.electricyacht.com) tend to be somewhat more expensive but in most cases are still comprised of off the shelf golf cart components.

The problem with EP is that long distances become problematic but most people I know with EP systems don't do long distances so the fact of the matter is it all depends.

We solved our occasional need to power longer than our battery bank would allow by using a Honda 2000 generator in a poor mans hybrid set up... So there are ways around the problems without spending silly money if you're willing to think a little outside the box and don't expect EP to behave like a ICE system.

That said, I expect that a 20HP or so outboard does make the most sense when all is said and done.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Always interesting to consider e-propulsion.
     Electric propulsion is neither cheap nor light for the limited range, not-to-mention potential reliability issues in salt-water environs.

I doubt that you would get close to having enough 'real-estate' for full-time e-supply without major battery-banks and indeed only limited range per running episode between re-charging sessions, assuming predictable/adequate sun-shine.
And the weight of the panels can really add up on a narrow-ish boat.

All this would take you a long way from the underlying principles of simplicity of TENNESSEE, MINNESOTA, DAKOTA, DELAWARE, and even TOPAZ, #679, SACPAS-3 etc.  Be prepared for the e-propulsion to quickly over-shadow hull-construction materials-plus.
No-expense-spared all-e-power cruisers have not been 'break-throughs' on a broad range of fronts.
 
And there is no new technology that makes any of this cheaper.  State-of-the-art batteries are very able - but at an astonishing price.

If you want to 'green' your life and teach your children serious lessons of prioritizing towards doable sustainability
- super-insulate your home one room at a time,
- cut commuting distances,
- down-size the car/truck sand add a trailer for rare full-load scenaria,
- avoid casual stratospheric jaunts to see Aunt Millie at the other end of the continent
etc. etc.

You might be happiest to take a stock design, build it before the next cruising season, and purr along with 10-25HP four-stroke large-prop outboard.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: River Rat vacation cruiser

 

> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level
> modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill,

You are smart to do the engineering on a "solar electric primary" to
confirm the feasibility of that plan. I recall reading the PB&F write-ups about
their engineering that they did for the electrical capacity needed to make
Lily (and Electric Spartina) functional E-boats. There was some
pretty major electrical input required, so I would be concerned that a
PV array sized to fit on the limited space available on top of the
cabin roof could come even close to the power actually required.
Also, the battery bank probably would need to weigh above a thousand
pounds, not a few hundred. If you want an Eboat, then that says to me
you would be better to considered a deeper draft to give you the
needed displacement to carry that ballast.

With high end plywood I would not bother with fiberglass or epoxy
saturation. I would fiberglass the bottom. You are going to beach this
boat and it takes a beating every time you do. Considering the weight
would either use two layers of 6 oz or one of Xynole.

HJ

On 8/30/2012 7:59 AM, ozarknjrat wrote:
> Thanks John. I was thinking Aquatek with 3/8 for the sides with Pason butt joints, double layer bottom, either 3/8 x 2, 3/8+ 1/2, or 1/2 x 2. I think a weight study and overall panel layout may drive that decision.
>
> I still have big questions about the need for any epoxy or epoxy+fiberglass on the bottom and topsides, given the dry sail nature of the boat. Any thoughts?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Boy<t1ro2003@...> wrote:
>> Pretty cool design idea. Â I've always wanted something similar for down her in Florida. Â I'd go with 3/8 sides and double planked 1/2 bottom. Â Not sure which state boat to borrow from but definitely name it a Pennsy. Â On the stern, I'd continue the top all the way back with locomotive style "C" bracing, see Weston Farmer's design Robinson CrusoeÂhttp://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/wf/robinsoncrusoe/index.htm%c3%82Â
>>
>> Also look at Mik Storer's Venice canal boat ideas. Âhttp://www.storerboatplans.com/Venice/Venice.html
>> John Boy
>> Â
>>
>>
>> I have a blog! Âhttp://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/
>>
>> “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.â€�Â
>>
>> Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: ozarknjrat<oetting@...>
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:20 PM
>> Subject: [bolger] River Rat vacation cruiser
>>
>>
>> Â
>> I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.
>>
>> Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)
>>
>> John
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level
> modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill,

You are smart to do the engineering on a "solar electric primary" to
confirm the feasibility of that plan. I recall reading the PB&F write-ups about
their engineering that they did for the electrical capacity needed to make
Lily (and Electric Spartina) functional E-boats. There was some
pretty major electrical input required, so I would be concerned that a
PV array sized to fit on the limited space available on top of the
cabin roof could come even close to the power actually required.
Also, the battery bank probably would need to weigh above a thousand
pounds, not a few hundred. If you want an Eboat, then that says to me
you would be better to considered a deeper draft to give you the
needed displacement to carry that ballast.
Spot on Bruce. I'm starting a weight study and will validate the comfort/accessory level with the family. A "camp cruiser" may be a closer description at this point (think wag bags, solar shower in stern cockpit, jerry jug water supply). I see usage as no more than 3 days without resupply of heavy weights like water and ice.

The big weight issue is propulsion. I've been doing some high level modeling and a solar electric primary may fit the bill, in which case we would be talking a couple of hundred pounds for batteries. One aspect of this concept which I think I am sold on is the use of 6ft wide white HPDE roll material for the cabin roof, topped by Unisolar PVL -68 thin film laminate panels. I like the incremental options for both the panels and the batteries, which would suggest I plan for a higher capacity hull.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 8:20 PM, ozarknjrat <oetting@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat"
> > series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and
> > protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred
> > miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for
> > a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week.
>
>
> The key issue is how much displacement you need for this four people
> one week scenario, as that will determine the amount of curvature in
> the bottom. The 29ft Tennessee has a flat bottom and lighter
> displacement, maybe not enough. Though Seth Macinko used his
> Tennessee successfully as live-aboard so go figure. The 26ft Delaware
> has a deeper bottom and more displacement.
>
Tennessee has a bit more beam, and a touch more rocker. The cabin you mocked up looks to be very workable on either hull, but assuming walk around headrooom, I'd favor Tenn'.

Both Tenn and Idaho are proven river cruisers. There is a bunch of video on youtube about an Idaho in South America.

Don

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz8275@..." <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
>
> The mock up looks most like Bolger's Idaho hull. I agree with others that Tenesee would also be a good starting point.
>
The mock up looks most like Bolger's Idaho hull. I agree with others that Tenesee would also be a good starting point.
Thanks John. I was thinking Aquatek with 3/8 for the sides with Pason butt joints, double layer bottom, either 3/8 x 2, 3/8+ 1/2, or 1/2 x 2. I think a weight study and overall panel layout may drive that decision.

I still have big questions about the need for any epoxy or epoxy+fiberglass on the bottom and topsides, given the dry sail nature of the boat. Any thoughts?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
>
> Pretty cool design idea.  I've always wanted something similar for down her in Florida.  I'd go with 3/8 sides and double planked 1/2 bottom.  Not sure which state boat to borrow from but definitely name it a Pennsy.  On the stern, I'd continue the top all the way back with locomotive style "C" bracing, see Weston Farmer's design Robinson CrusoeÂhttp://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/wf/robinsoncrusoe/index.htm%c3%82%c2%a0%c3%82%c2%a0
>
> Also look at Mik Storer's Venice canal boat ideas. Âhttp://www.storerboatplans.com/Venice/Venice.html
> John Boy
> Â
>
>
> I have a blog! Âhttp://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/
>
> “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.”Â
>
> Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ozarknjrat <oetting@...>
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:20 PM
> Subject: [bolger] River Rat vacation cruiser
>
>
> Â
> I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.
>
> Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)
>
> John
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
>
Thanks for the input Mark. Storrer and the Duck Flats Mondoo fleet provided additional inspiration, same with Michlack, Lake Union Dreamboats etc... I'll probably start off with open sides on most of the cabin, with roll down screens and vinly when needed. I can do more proper walls and windows latter if warranted.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> The state boat you're describing is the Tennessee. If you reduce the
> larger boats from the series, hoping to get the layouts maybe, that's
> the boat you'll get.
> For some waters, the cabin Topaz might be nice.
> Also, Micheal Storrer has done a good job riffing on the squareboat
> theme.
>http://tinyurl.com/8q6fxnb
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 29, 2012, at 8:20 PM, ozarknjrat wrote:
>
> > I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state
> > boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for
> > inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises
> > within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great
> > destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium
> > size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard
> > last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted
> > under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.
> >
> > Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than
> > 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat"
> > hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)
> >
> > John
> >
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?
> > v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> >
> >
>
On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 8:20 PM, ozarknjrat <oetting@...> wrote:
>
> I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat"
> series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and
> protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred
> miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for
> a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week.


The key issue is how much displacement you need for this four people
one week scenario, as that will determine the amount of curvature in
the bottom. The 29ft Tennessee has a flat bottom and lighter
displacement, maybe not enough. Though Seth Macinko used his
Tennessee successfully as live-aboard so go figure. The 26ft Delaware
has a deeper bottom and more displacement.
You might consider Mik Storer's "Venezia"

Best,
Joe


From:ozarknjrat <oetting@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wed, August 29, 2012 10:20:56 PM
Subject:[bolger] River Rat vacation cruiser

 

I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.

Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)

John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Pretty cool design idea.  I've always wanted something similar for down her in Florida.  I'd go with 3/8 sides and double planked 1/2 bottom.  Not sure which state boat to borrow from but definitely name it a Pennsy.  On the stern, I'd continue the top all the way back with locomotive style "C" bracing, see Weston Farmer's design Robinson Crusoe http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/wf/robinsoncrusoe/index.htm  

Also look at Mik Storer's Venice canal boat ideas.  http://www.storerboatplans.com/Venice/Venice.html
John Boy
 



“Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 
Robert Louis Stevenson,Treasure Island

From:ozarknjrat <oetting@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:20 PM
Subject:[bolger] River Rat vacation cruiser

 
I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.

Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)

John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player



John,

The state boat you're describing is theTennessee. If you reduce the larger boats from the series, hoping to get the layouts maybe, that's the boat you'll get.
For some waters, the cabinTopazmight be nice.
Also, Micheal Storrer has done a good job riffing on the squareboat theme.




On Aug 29, 2012, at 8:20 PM, ozarknjrat wrote:

 

I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.

Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)

John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I'm getting serious about a build inspired largely by Phil's "state boat" series of low power sharpie designs. Intended use is for inland and protected near-coastal water vacation trailer cruises within a few hundred miles of Eastern PA (a lot of great destinations). Simple accommodations for a couple and two medium size kids for up to a week. We did a full scale mock-up in the yard last summer to get a good feel for the concept. See photo posted under the "River Rat" album and a video walk-thru link below.

Primary specs are about 27ft LOA (3 1/2 sheet sides) and less than 7ft beam. My question for all you experts is: which "state boat" hull would you start with? (assuming some scaling is OK)

John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axGWR_ycx2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player