Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

Would love to have more info and even if possible during winterbreak, go down and have a look at new as39.

From:loosemoosefilmworks <loosemoosefilmworks@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:40 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
Tom...

Boat design by coming up with averages of what other boats have is not design at all and approaches a GIGO situation at best.

First of all, the real test of a design is how it functions. In this case LM2 functioned well we managed to sail it some 20,000 miles and that counts for something.

Second, a lot of the boats you ascribe to in your arguement are pretty crappy boats... Munroe's Egret is not a boat I'd care to take to sea further than I felt comfortable swimming back from. It is a pretty boat but in the world where form should follow function it would not be Darwin's choice.We've sailed past a couple of Mr Parkers designs (which I actually like) to windward and while they had much lower freeboard they were certainly not kicking ass to windward.

Lastly you keep saying that the AS39 has such horrible freeboard but, offhand, I can't say it had that much more freeboard than our Jessie Cooper and as it only had standing headroom (for me that equals 6'6") in the galley area under the coachroof (Which was the same as I had on our Jesse Cooper)I still don't see the freeboard as being in any way excessive (maybe Susanne or someone could step in and refresh our memories on the exact freeboard measurement of the AS29 and the LM2 version of the AS39) and at most we are talking a matter of a few inches.

I mention the lug rig on my blog quite a bit because it's the mistake I made when we had Phil design LM2 for us as I was the one who asked for the boat to be rigged as a gaff. It's just my experience, but the boat would have been much better with a balanced lug main jib combination or as a lug schooner(and not because we needed to improve windward ability) but hey, hindsight is 20/20 right.

As it happens I just got a phone call from a guy who just launched his AS39 up in South Carolina... He sure sounds like a happy camper.

Maybe, if you ask nice, he'll even take you for a sail and you could find out how she sails the way it's supposed to be done by sailing the boat...

Bob

PS On the passion front it is not so much I have a passion for the boat ( much love yes) but that over the years I have encountered so much misinformation about LM2, the Advanced sharpies, and Bolger boats in general that I feel it needful to correct misinformation when it crops up...

Tom...

Boat design by coming up with averages of what other boats have is not design at all and approaches a GIGO situation at best.

First of all, the real test of a design is how it functions. In this case LM2 functioned well we managed to sail it some 20,000 miles and that counts for something.

Second, a lot of the boats you ascribe to in your arguement are pretty crappy boats... Munroe's Egret is not a boat I'd care to take to sea further than I felt comfortable swimming back from. It is a pretty boat but in the world where form should follow function it would not be Darwin's choice.We've sailed past a couple of Mr Parkers designs (which I actually like) to windward and while they had much lower freeboard they were certainly not kicking ass to windward.

Lastly you keep saying that the AS39 has such horrible freeboard but, offhand, I can't say it had that much more freeboard than our Jessie Cooper and as it only had standing headroom (for me that equals 6'6") in the galley area under the coachroof (Which was the same as I had on our Jesse Cooper)I still don't see the freeboard as being in any way excessive (maybe Susanne or someone could step in and refresh our memories on the exact freeboard measurement of the AS29 and the LM2 version of the AS39) and at most we are talking a matter of a few inches.

I mention the lug rig on my blog quite a bit because it's the mistake I made when we had Phil design LM2 for us as I was the one who asked for the boat to be rigged as a gaff. It's just my experience, but the boat would have been much better with a balanced lug main jib combination or as a lug schooner(and not because we needed to improve windward ability) but hey, hindsight is 20/20 right.

As it happens I just got a phone call from a guy who just launched his AS39 up in South Carolina... He sure sounds like a happy camper.

Maybe, if you ask nice, he'll even take you for a sail and you could find out how she sails the way it's supposed to be done by sailing the boat...

Bob

PS On the passion front it is not so much I have a passion for the boat ( much love yes) but that over the years I have encountered so much misinformation about LM2, the Advanced sharpies, and Bolger boats in general that I feel it needful to correct misinformation when it crops up...
If not mistaken your beam is 6'-6".  When you get into beam size less than 8' you have to accept higher freeboard, then again its a compromise worth taking since  its more of an inshore/camping type boat rather than offshorer where better sailing qualities are called for. 
 
Hear of many stories of "high pointing ability" or  "showed my stern ass to other boats", those are relative and more in accords to what owners find acceptable of thier boats  rather than actual superior speed characteristics which are well known on how to achieve in design.  The designs mentioned thus far have acceptable speed but, Bolger compromised to balance with other requirements.

From:"Connor, Patrick" <pconnor@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:10 AM
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
Whalewatcher. Freeboard is only slightly less than the AS-29, no house. 4” shallower draft, 2,750#  less displacement.
 
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfTom Pee
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:07 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
What is your design? Of all the AS designs and even most of the power sharpies only LM2 has such high freeboard.
 
Know of LM2, Anemone, Wizard, and there might be one more AS39.  Think wizard is only one still around anyone know where its at and who the present owners are?
 
From:"Connor, Patrick" <pconnor@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:53 AM
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
As the owner of a high-sided Bolger “square boat”, I have to agree with Bob A. Starts with basic seamanship, piloting and learning/knowing the boat.  Thesearedifferent boats from the usual fin keeler. Not bad, just different. I have to say windage has not been much of an issue. Learn the boat, anticipate what will happen and the “oops” go away. For low speed maneuvering in tight spots with a breeze, drop a board, have the right motor (turned on) on, with the right prop (my two-stroke Nissan uses an aftermarket 4-blade low pitch prop), no problem.
 
Other thoughts.
1.       This is not a J boat. Make allowances when piloting.
2.        If you pinch it up, especially in lighter winds and less than ideal conditions (read: chop), expect leeway, a fair amount of it. No problem, just anticipate the behavior. Lesson? Don’t pinch if you don’t have to.
3.       If you have sea room, keep the motor up to eliminate drag, keep momentum to make tacking more reliable. If not, have a board down, the motor down and running in case you need it. I do not realistically expect my boat to sail higher than 50 degrees, 55 degrees even better, except in “perfect” conditions, which are for my boat is 8-10 knots, no chop or boat wakes. Under those “perfect” conditions she will sail to 45 degrees. She will ghost to windward amazingly well. But,  I don’t hold my breath for perfect conditions or sweat it anymore when conditions aren’t perfect.
4.        As to #2, if tacking in these conditions, fall off a few degrees to gain speed. If there are a lot of power boat wakes and/or you are in a channel just turn the  motor to cover yourself and save possible embarrassment.
 
 
 
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfTom Pee
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 5:18 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
 
On this forum, from Bob Archibald, years back, although he has very little to say. 
 
Would like to hear from him directly.  Think his as39 was built by a company in Florida, went to thier website last year and for years before that it said they are on a sabbatical.  The company has something to do with catamarans.
 
From:Kent <kent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
Tom, where did you read that AS39 "suffers excessive windage?" Can I
get a link please? Thanks -- Kent

> Bolger did a good job with AS29 but AS39 is to tall and suffers
> excessive windage as Bob Archibald-AS39 builder has testified.

Whalewatcher. Freeboard is only slightly less than the AS-29, no house. 4” shallower draft, 2,750#  less displacement.

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfTom Pee
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:07 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

What is your design? Of all the AS designs and even most of the power sharpies only LM2 has such high freeboard.

 

Know of LM2, Anemone, Wizard, and there might be one more AS39.  Think wizard is only one still around anyone know where its at and who the present owners are?

 

From:"Connor, Patrick" <pconnor@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:53 AM
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

As the owner of a high-sided Bolger “square boat”, I have to agree with Bob A. Starts with basic seamanship, piloting and learning/knowing the boat.  Thesearedifferent boats from the usual fin keeler. Not bad, just different. I have to say windage has not been much of an issue. Learn the boat, anticipate what will happen and the “oops” go away. For low speed maneuvering in tight spots with a breeze, drop a board, have the right motor (turned on) on, with the right prop (my two-stroke Nissan uses an aftermarket 4-blade low pitch prop), no problem.

 

Other thoughts.

1.       This is not a J boat. Make allowances when piloting.

2.        If you pinch it up, especially in lighter winds and less than ideal conditions (read: chop), expect leeway, a fair amount of it. No problem, just anticipate the behavior. Lesson? Don’t pinch if you don’t have to.

3.       If you have sea room, keep the motor up to eliminate drag, keep momentum to make tacking more reliable. If not, have a board down, the motor down and running in case you need it. I do not realistically expect my boat to sail higher than 50 degrees, 55 degrees even better, except in “perfect” conditions, which are for my boat is 8-10 knots, no chop or boat wakes. Under those “perfect” conditions she will sail to 45 degrees. She will ghost to windward amazingly well. But,  I don’t hold my breath for perfect conditions or sweat it anymore when conditions aren’t perfect.

4.        As to #2, if tacking in these conditions, fall off a few degrees to gain speed. If there are a lot of power boat wakes and/or you are in a channel just turn the  motor to cover yourself and save possible embarrassment.

 

 

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfTom Pee
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 5:18 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

 

On this forum, from Bob Archibald, years back, although he has very little to say. 

 

Would like to hear from him directly.  Think his as39 was built by a company in Florida, went to thier website last year and for years before that it said they are on a sabbatical.  The company has something to do with catamarans.

 

From:Kent <kent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

Tom, where did you read that AS39 "suffers excessive windage?" Can I
get a link please? Thanks -- Kent

> Bolger did a good job with AS29 but AS39 is to tall and suffers
> excessive windage as Bob Archibald-AS39 builder has testified.

What is your design? Of all the AS designs and even most of the power sharpies only LM2 has such high freeboard.
 
Know of LM2, Anemone, Wizard, and there might be one more AS39.  Think wizard is only one still around anyone know where its at and who the present owners are?

From:"Connor, Patrick" <pconnor@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:53 AM
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
As the owner of a high-sided Bolger “square boat”, I have to agree with Bob A. Starts with basic seamanship, piloting and learning/knowing the boat.  Thesearedifferent boats from the usual fin keeler. Not bad, just different. I have to say windage has not been much of an issue. Learn the boat, anticipate what will happen and the “oops” go away. For low speed maneuvering in tight spots with a breeze, drop a board, have the right motor (turned on) on, with the right prop (my two-stroke Nissan uses an aftermarket 4-blade low pitch prop), no problem.
 
Other thoughts.
1.      This is not a J boat. Make allowances when piloting.
2.       If you pinch it up, especially in lighter winds and less than ideal conditions (read: chop), expect leeway, a fair amount of it. No problem, just anticipate the behavior. Lesson? Don’t pinch if you don’t have to.
3.      If you have sea room, keep the motor up to eliminate drag, keep momentum to make tacking more reliable. If not, have a board down, the motor down and running in case you need it. I do not realistically expect my boat to sail higher than 50 degrees, 55 degrees even better, except in “perfect” conditions, which are for my boat is 8-10 knots, no chop or boat wakes. Under those “perfect” conditions she will sail to 45 degrees. She will ghost to windward amazingly well. But,  I don’t hold my breath for perfect conditions or sweat it anymore when conditions aren’t perfect.
4.       As to #2, if tacking in these conditions, fall off a few degrees to gain speed. If there are a lot of power boat wakes and/or you are in a channel just turn the  motor to cover yourself and save possible embarrassment.
 
 
 
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfTom Pee
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 5:18 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
 
On this forum, from Bob Archibald, years back, although he has very little to say. 
 
Would like to hear from him directly.  Think his as39 was built by a company in Florida, went to thier website last year and for years before that it said they are on a sabbatical.  The company has something to do with catamarans.
 
From:Kent <kent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
Tom, where did you read that AS39 "suffers excessive windage?" Can I
get a link please? Thanks -- Kent

> Bolger did a good job with AS29 but AS39 is to tall and suffers
> excessive windage as Bob Archibald-AS39 builder has testified.

As the owner of a high-sided Bolger “square boat”, I have to agree with Bob A. Starts with basic seamanship, piloting and learning/knowing the boat.  Thesearedifferent boats from the usual fin keeler. Not bad, just different. I have to say windage has not been much of an issue. Learn the boat, anticipate what will happen and the “oops” go away. For low speed maneuvering in tight spots with a breeze, drop a board, have the right motor (turned on) on, with the right prop (my two-stroke Nissan uses an aftermarket 4-blade low pitch prop), no problem.

 

Other thoughts.

1.      This is not a J boat. Make allowances when piloting.

2.      If you pinch it up, especially in lighter winds and less than ideal conditions (read: chop), expect leeway, a fair amount of it. No problem, just anticipate the behavior. Lesson? Don’t pinch if you don’t have to.

3.      If you have sea room, keep the motor up to eliminate drag, keep momentum to make tacking more reliable. If not, have a board down, the motor down and running in case you need it. I do not realistically expect my boat to sail higher than 50 degrees, 55 degrees even better, except in “perfect” conditions, which are for my boat is 8-10 knots, no chop or boat wakes. Under those “perfect” conditions she will sail to 45 degrees. She will ghost to windward amazingly well. But,  I don’t hold my breath for perfect conditions or sweat it anymore when conditions aren’t perfect.

4.      As to #2, if tacking in these conditions, fall off a few degrees to gain speed. If there are a lot of power boat wakes and/or you are in a channel just turn the  motor to cover yourself and save possible embarrassment.

 

 

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfTom Pee
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 5:18 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

 

On this forum, from Bob Archibald, years back, although he has very little to say. 

 

Would like to hear from him directly.  Think his as39 was built by a company in Florida, went to thier website last year and for years before that it said they are on a sabbatical.  The company has something to do with catamarans.

 

From:Kent <kent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

Tom, where did you read that AS39 "suffers excessive windage?" Can I
get a link please? Thanks -- Kent

> Bolger did a good job with AS29 but AS39 is to tall and suffers
> excessive windage as Bob Archibald-AS39 builder has testified.

Bob, I know your passion for LM2 and it is a marvelous design.  Again LM2 was a special case and as you say a compromise made to accomodate full time liveaboard. 
 
Look in bwoam (Redzinger-Barnowl-Offshore leeboarder-presto, SJBanks) that all of them are close to 60% freeboard vs beam.  Also look at older Bolger box types that precede the AS, Munroe's  Egret/Presto, Heresshoff's 
Meadowlark/Goldenball.
 
All the master sharpie designers insist a minimum 4-1 beam and upto 6-1 being the ideal and 60% hull freeboard. Some examples of why its difficult to design that way.
 
40'L x 6'-6"B x 4' H: To small for even sitting room.
 
50'L x 8'-4"B x 5' H: Now you can have comfortable sitting room and with cabin tops have standing headroom.
 
67'L x 11'-2"B x 6'-8"H: With this you can have almost full standing headroom for main areas and would have to go 72' for someone of your stature.
 
AS29 and AS39 are sister ships with the exact same beam, the 29 is near the 60% ratio.  If you take both designs, keep ballast ratios the same and turn turtle, 39 will come around-29 most likely not, unless it is extended to 47' to achieve the 6-1 ratio and now there is a good chance it will be unstable enough to come around also.
Turn them both sideways at 90 degrees and the 39 will be cumbersome coming back around and if hatches are open or weak it could ship water and not pop up until drained, the 29 is more unstable in that position and will be righting itself quicker.  Not to mention that the lower freeboard will keep it less prone to knockdown in the first place.
 
BTW, can you give me the diplacement, ballast, maximum interior headroom for LM2.  Also you keep referring to the lug rig, but as shown in BWOAM it is a gaff rig.
 
 
From:loosemoosefilmworks <loosemoosefilmworks@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 7:15 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 

Well actually the high sides of the AS 39 have a lot to offer other than just headroom and creature comforts.

As far as sailing to windward though the highish sides of LM2 were ( and I repeat) NON-PROBLEMATIC... There are any number of things you could do to the AS39 design to make it sail to weather better... You know add a jib, a highly tensioned stayed rig, and bolt a seven foot lead keel to it's bottom.. But hey, then it wouldn't be a shoal draft sharpie anymore now would it?

The thing is all boats are some sort of compromise and we trade strengths to get what we want and Phil with his rendering of Loose Moose 2 got it (I'd say) about 95% right.

As to the other thing...

" Even though Archibald over disparaged the as39, some of his observations about turning a corner and having lost control-being pushed ashore have to be attributed to high windage."

A lot of people buy, build or have built boats and never bother to really learn to sail. When shit happens it's easy to blame the boat design rather than say I did something stupid and it all went balls up, To be honest I had more than a couple days of shame while I learned how to sail Loose Moose and Loose Moose 2 because sharpies (high sided or not) have a somewhat steep learning curve and are not quite the same as your fiberglass fin keel same old same sloop.

Bob

Well actually the high sides of the AS 39 have a lot to offer other than just headroom and creature comforts.

As far as sailing to windward though the highish sides of LM2 were ( and I repeat) NON-PROBLEMATIC... There are any number of things you could do to the AS39 design to make it sail to weather better... You know add a jib, a highly tensioned stayed rig, and bolt a seven foot lead keel to it's bottom.. But hey, then it wouldn't be a shoal draft sharpie anymore now would it?

The thing is all boats are some sort of compromise and we trade strengths to get what we want and Phil with his rendering of Loose Moose 2 got it (I'd say) about 95% right.

As to the other thing...

" Even though Archibald over disparaged the as39, some of his observations about turning a corner and having lost control-being pushed ashore have to be attributed to high windage."

A lot of people buy, build or have built boats and never bother to really learn to sail. When shit happens it's easy to blame the boat design rather than say I did something stupid and it all went balls up, To be honest I had more than a couple days of shame while I learned how to sail Loose Moose and Loose Moose 2 because sharpies (high sided or not) have a somewhat steep learning curve and are not quite the same as your fiberglass fin keel same old same sloop.

Bob
On this forum, from Bob Archibald, years back, although he has very little to say. 
 
Would like to hear from him directly.  Think his as39 was built by a company in Florida, went to thier website last year and for years before that it said they are on a sabbatical.  The company has something to do with catamarans.

From:Kent <kent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:23 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
Tom, where did you read that AS39 "suffers excessive windage?" Can I
get a link please? Thanks -- Kent

> Bolger did a good job with AS29 but AS39 is to tall and suffers
> excessive windage as Bob Archibald-AS39 builder has testified.

If anyone would know about the as39 capabilities its you buuuut, you would have to say it is high sided and without doubt reducing hull height would probably dramatically help pointing higher.  Eventhough Archibald over disparaged the as39, some of his observations about turning a corner and  having lost control-being pushed ashore have to be attributed to high windage.
 
Maybe for someone 6'5", five footsitting room would still be to small in as29. 

From:loosemoosefilmworks <loosemoosefilmworks@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:09 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
Tom

Well, having sailed the Loose Moose 2 (AS29) a few miles or so I have to take your suggestion that it would improve things to cut 15" off...

Why?

We sailed Loose Moose 2 to windward, in storms and all other sorts of weather/conditions and never once found ourselves in a situation or condition where excessive windage was any sort of a problem.

The boat performs well on all tacks and showed more than a fair number of fellow cruising boats its transom on a regular basis.

As far as interior accommodation I should add that the LM2/AS39 design is a happy place for someone who is 6'5" to live.

Which is not to say that Colvin and Parker don't know a thing or two about boats but as far as sharpies go Phil seems to have a better grasp of things shoal.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

Tom, where did you read that AS39 "suffers excessive windage?" Can I
get a link please? Thanks -- Kent


> Bolger did a good job with AS29 but AS39 is to tall and suffers
> excessive windage as Bob Archibald-AS39 builder has testified.
Tom

Well, having sailed the Loose Moose 2 (AS39) a few miles or so I have to take
your suggestion that it would improve things to cut 15" off...

Why?

We sailed Loose Moose 2 to windward, in storms and all other sorts of
weather/conditions and never once found ourselves in a situation or condition
where excessive windage was any sort of a problem.

The boat performs well on all tacks and showed more than a fair number of fellow
cruising boats its transom on a regular basis.

As far as interior accommodation I should add that the LM2/AS39 design is a
happy place for someone who is 6'5" to live.

Which is not to say that Colvin and Parker don't know a thing or two about boats
but as far as sharpies go Phil seems to have a better grasp of things shoal.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Your replies have been very enlightening. I knew the high ends of Viking ships and galleons served to prevent capsizing. The high stern castles also helped to bring the galleons about using windage. It's food for thought. I really like the high quality finish, both in the glassed sections and the interior woodworking, in Tara. Good job, Leo.

 
Michael Childs
415 828 9663 - 626 799 9796
www.michaelchilds.com
michael_v_childs@...
Mr. Pooh, (or is it the more French 'Po'-Op' ?),
   no doubt we all look forward to reading your monograph on your extensive design-efforts that produced the rich body of research and corresponding quantitative analysis upon which your detailed geometric dictates are based.  Would you offer a Preview ?

And while you are at it, for comparative purposes, could you share the method by which your "excessive windage" was measured and contextualized ? 

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
From:Tom Pee
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:43 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

For a sharpie total hull height should be limited to 6/10 of hull beam.  Bolger did a good job with AS29 but AS39 is to tall and suffers excessive windage as Bob Archibald-AS39 builder has testified. 
 
With 8' beam that gives you enough sitting/sleeping/storage room, add small deckhouses for headroom at galley and shower areas.  Would slightly extend the 29 to get at least a 4-1 beam/length ratio which even Bolger himself mentioned it is  necessary for a proper ocean going sharpie, if you can afford it shoot closer for 5-1 as the 39 does and is the main reason for it sucess being a ocean sharpie, in that case just use the AS39 platform and chop off 15" in hull height.

From:Kent <kent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sunday, October 28, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
I, for one, would like to hear more about this topic from the more
experienced builders & sailors. I'm working on a design of my own,
quite Bolger-esque, and I'm pretty tall, 6'3". So headroom vs. windage
is very much a concern to me.

Tom Colvin is another respected designer who has said that sharpies must
be low; I think he wrote that they should be at least 40' long to have
standing headroom. But obviously, there are successful designs out
there that break this rule.

I'm designing for comfort, not for speed; but I do want her to have
tolerable upwind performance. Any thoughts?

Thanks -- Kent

P.S. Leo, thanks & congratulations on Tara: a beautiful boat!

>
>
> Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design
> question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a
> minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom.
> This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the
> face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing
> to windward?
>
> Michael Childs

Any of the really high pointing modern boats such as a J-Boat have low cabin trunks/hulls-sitting room only for the 30 footers.  This has even more bearing upon a sharpie due to shallow draft. 

From:Eric <eric14850@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 9:37 AM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
ROGUE's hull is barge form - shallow draft, internal ballast, leeboards, 1:3.2 beam/length ratio - not unlike a sharpie in the ways that concern your question. During the building process I was worried about windage because the hull appears to be so tall out of the water. Then I began noticing that many modern sailboats have very shallow hulls with fin keels attached. They sit as high out of the water as ROGUE, its just that the height is masked because much of the height is made up of the cabin trunk. Its still windage. ROGUE has sailed boat to boat to windward with these boats, and older style full keel boats, and had no trouble pointing as high and sailing as fast. An eye opener for the sailors who think their modern sloops are going to perform so much better than my funny boat with its anachronistic lug schooner rig. Flat out racing boats will beat ROGUE to windward, but not the usual cruiser/racer.

Eric

--- Inmailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com, Michael Childs <michael_v_childs@...> wrote:
>
> Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom. This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing to windward?
>
>
>
>  
> Michael Childs
> 415 828 9663 - 626 799 9796
>http://www.michaelchilds.com/
> michael_v_childs@...
>

For a sharpie total hull height should be limited to 6/10 of hull beam.  Bolger did a good job with AS29 but AS39 is to tall and suffers excessive windage as Bob Archibald-AS39 builder has testified. 
 
With 8' beam that gives you enough sitting/sleeping/storage room, add small deckhouses for headroom at galley and shower areas.  Would slightly extend the 29 to get at least a 4-1 beam/length ratio which even Bolger himself mentioned it is  necessary for a proper ocean going sharpie, if you can afford it shoot closer for 5-1 as the 39 does and is the main reason for it sucess being a ocean sharpie, in that case just use the AS39 platform and chop off 15" in hull height.

From:Kent <kent@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Sunday, October 28, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))
 
I, for one, would like to hear more about this topic from the more
experienced builders & sailors. I'm working on a design of my own,
quite Bolger-esque, and I'm pretty tall, 6'3". So headroom vs. windage
is very much a concern to me.

Tom Colvin is another respected designer who has said that sharpies must
be low; I think he wrote that they should be at least 40' long to have
standing headroom. But obviously, there are successful designs out
there that break this rule.

I'm designing for comfort, not for speed; but I do want her to have
tolerable upwind performance. Any thoughts?

Thanks -- Kent

P.S. Leo, thanks & congratulations on Tara: a beautiful boat!

>
>
> Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design
> question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a
> minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom.
> This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the
> face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing
> to windward?
>
> Michael Childs

ROGUE's hull is barge form - shallow draft, internal ballast, leeboards, 1:3.2 beam/length ratio - not unlike a sharpie in the ways that concern your question. During the building process I was worried about windage because the hull appears to be so tall out of the water. Then I began noticing that many modern sailboats have very shallow hulls with fin keels attached. They sit as high out of the water as ROGUE, its just that the height is masked because much of the height is made up of the cabin trunk. Its still windage. ROGUE has sailed boat to boat to windward with these boats, and older style full keel boats, and had no trouble pointing as high and sailing as fast. An eye opener for the sailors who think their modern sloops are going to perform so much better than my funny boat with its anachronistic lug schooner rig. Flat out racing boats will beat ROGUE to windward, but not the usual cruiser/racer.

Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Michael Childs <michael_v_childs@...> wrote:
>
> Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom. This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing to windward?
>
>
>
>
> Michael Childs
> 415 828 9663 - 626 799 9796
> www.michaelchilds.com
> michael_v_childs@...
>
Kent:

I am in the middle of a Bolger AS29 build right now.  The high freeboard gives nice sitting headroom on the saloon settees and a small doghouse over the galley gives standing room for cooking and putting on your pants/foulies.  This gives a nice, big flush deck forward for carrying a hard dinghy, something not too many 29'ers can do.

Neal
Bohol, Philippines

To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: philbolger@...
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 16:15:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 
For starters, lot's of Bolger books and articles to read.
Then, is this cruising-sharpie the first design-effort ?

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
From:Kent
Sent:Sunday, October 28, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

I, for one, would like to hear more about this topic from the more
experienced builders & sailors. I'm working on a design of my own,
quite Bolger-esque, and I'm pretty tall, 6'3". So headroom vs. windage
is very much a concern to me.

Tom Colvin is another respected designer who has said that sharpies must
be low; I think he wrote that they should be at least 40' long to have
standing headroom. But obviously, there are successful designs out
there that break this rule.

I'm designing for comfort, not for speed; but I do want her to have
tolerable upwind performance. Any thoughts?

Thanks -- Kent

P.S. Leo, thanks & congratulations on Tara: a beautiful boat!

>
>
> Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design
> question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a
> minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom.
> This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the
> face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing
> to windward?
>
> Michael Childs


For starters, lot's of Bolger books and articles to read.
Then, is this cruising-sharpie the first design-effort ?

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
From:Kent
Sent:Sunday, October 28, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

I, for one, would like to hear more about this topic from the more
experienced builders & sailors. I'm working on a design of my own,
quite Bolger-esque, and I'm pretty tall, 6'3". So headroom vs. windage
is very much a concern to me.

Tom Colvin is another respected designer who has said that sharpies must
be low; I think he wrote that they should be at least 40' long to have
standing headroom. But obviously, there are successful designs out
there that break this rule.

I'm designing for comfort, not for speed; but I do want her to have
tolerable upwind performance. Any thoughts?

Thanks -- Kent

P.S. Leo, thanks & congratulations on Tara: a beautiful boat!

>
>
> Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design
> question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a
> minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom.
> This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the
> face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing
> to windward?
>
> Michael Childs

I, for one, would like to hear more about this topic from the more
experienced builders & sailors. I'm working on a design of my own,
quite Bolger-esque, and I'm pretty tall, 6'3". So headroom vs. windage
is very much a concern to me.

Tom Colvin is another respected designer who has said that sharpies must
be low; I think he wrote that they should be at least 40' long to have
standing headroom. But obviously, there are successful designs out
there that break this rule.

I'm designing for comfort, not for speed; but I do want her to have
tolerable upwind performance. Any thoughts?

Thanks -- Kent

P.S. Leo, thanks & congratulations on Tara: a beautiful boat!



>
>
> Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design
> question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a
> minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom.
> This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the
> face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing
> to windward?
>
> Michael Childs
Michael,
as we sailed mostly down river, it's hard to tell, how high she actually pointed. When sailing on a lake under tricky wind conditions, she brought us back to where we started. I feel, windward ability will improve the more we get used to this special hull/rig combination.
Your term boxy design probably means vertical sides. Those actually help to minimize leeway. High free board helps with the self righting ability. Minimum windage is certainly a good thing for every sailing boat, but living aboard a small vessel means living with compromises.
Our priority is safety and we both feel safe aboard Tara.
Leo
Good Question.
    At this point - before Phil's manuscript on his sharpie-designs is in print - I can only produce a 'cute' One-Liner-type comment: " Phil designed and saw built more sharpies and a broad range of derivatives than anyone ever - well over 100 designs plus 'a few more' concepts on the theme.  This body of work thus comes to define the subject."

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F Inc.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Sunday, October 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: Tara sailing (9m Chinese Sharpie ;-))

 

Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom. This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing to windward?

 
Michael Childs
415 828 9663 - 626 799 9796
www.michaelchilds.com
michael_v_childs@...

Very handsome under sail. As a newcomer to the group, I have a design question: both Chapelle and Parker make a case for keeping windage to a minimum for sharpies. This entails low free board and sitting headroom. This design, as well as many other of Bolger's design seem to fly in the face of that consideration. Does the boxy design have problems sailing to windward?

 
Michael Childs
415 828 9663 - 626 799 9796
www.michaelchilds.com
michael_v_childs@...
http://www.leow.de

sorry, forgot about html ... hope this helps
Hello guys!

Two girls sent us the first ever picture of Tara actually sailing.
See: www.leow.de and click image to enlarge

On our way down the River Maas, we had to lower the main mast. There are some fixed bridges 8.5m. Having constant motor trouble, we used the mizzen quite often. He never let us down under any condition. Exept when the wind calmed down, we used our 5m sculling oar to head for a secure anchorage. During the night, wind picked up and turned.
The morning found us with all three anchores out...
motor didn't even start...
Three more bridges and we could have stepped the main mast. With a good breeze from astern, we were too lazy and just went along under mizzen alone. Late afternoon Tara entered the little harbour of Willemstad, NL. Again the junk mizzen showed his best qualities, giving full control over the boat's speed in the narrow harbour.

We'll stay in Willemstad for the winter. People are very friendly and the harbourmaster offered us a cheap mooring. Tara got lots of compliments along her way despite the fact, that plenty of tasks are still unfinished ...

Cheers, Leo
The Netherlands