Re: Start a new topic, was: Re: H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, John Weiss <jrweiss98020@...> wrote:
>
> On 10/31/2012 08:57, Michael Childs wrote:
> > Is there any way to obviate the endless repetitions of these threads and
> > just show the original message and the one to which it is responding? It
> > drives me crazy (not just in this forum, but elsewhere). Is there a
> > technique that some of you have mastered? After awhile, I just want to
> > exit and forget about the whole thing.
>
> All it takes is for EACH responder to intelligently trim the quoted
> material from his reply, so only the relevant material remains. Too
> many simply hit "Reply", type their response, and send it off with all
> the garbage attached...
>
V/R
Chris
On 10/31/2012 6:24 PM, John wrote:Is there any way to obviate the endless repetitions of these threadsand just show the original message and the one to which it isresponding?
messages in threads. Not perfectly, but close enough.
On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 09:19:38 -0700, Robb wrote:
> Thats the whole problem with yahoo and similar groups. There is no
> coherency to the threads. One post after another is just piled up in
> the order they are sent regardless of the subject. Thats why groups
> that are hosted in formats like "simple machines" or "BB" forums are
> MUCH easier to follow. Yahoo groups are horrible. Robb
> ...
--
John (jkohnen@...)
There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism,
and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior
capacity for happiness. (H. L. Mencken)
There are no rules for hole size vs item struck.
The hole size depends on which part of the container was struck,
which part of the hull was impacted,
at what angle, how far under the waterline,
relative speeds, etc, etc, etc.
Anything from a scratch to the loss of the stem and keel.
Hours preceding her loss?
Those containers can float for years.
And you can be sure that lost containers are not always reported.
Since a majority of collisions involve submerged objects
it would be unreasonable to dismiss that possibility.
--
"We can easily forgive a child
who is afraid of the dark;
the real tragedy of life
is when men are afraid of the light."
-- Plato
I see nice threads... Not sure why you cant.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Robb <robb@...> wrote:
>
> Thats the whole problem with yahoo and similar groups. There is no
> coherency to the threads. One post after another is just piled up in
> the order they are sent regardless of the subject. Thats why groups
> that are hosted in formats like "simple machines" or "BB" forums are
> MUCH easier to follow. Yahoo groups are horrible. Robb
>
>
> On 10/31/2012 11:57 AM, Michael Childs wrote:
> >
> >
> > Is there any way to obviate the endless repetitions of these threads
> > and just show the original message and the one to which it is
> > responding? It drives me crazy (not just in this forum, but
> > elsewhere). Is there a technique that some of you have mastered? After
> > awhile, I just want to exit and forget about the whole thing.
> >
> > Michael Childs
> > 415 828 9663 - 626 799 9796
> > www.michaelchilds.com
> > michael_v_childs@...
> >
> >
> >
>
she would have sunk faster. Also, is there any record of a container
ship losing part of her cargo in that area in the hours immediately
preceding her loss?
-p
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:21 PM, David Baughman <shascho@...> wrote:
> No one has mentioned the very common possibility
> that she hit a semi-submerged tree or container.
> That's the most common cause
> of sudden catastrophic hull failure, is it not?
>
> And BTW, the Patric O'Brien stories are NOT fictional.
> Every gun fired, every injury,
> and every on-board emergency
> was taken from official RN records or officer's journals.
> That they are applied to composite characters
> detracts nothing from their accuracy.
> That's part of the reason the Queen knighted O'Brien.
>
>
> --
> "We can easily forgive a child
> who is afraid of the dark;
> the real tragedy of life
> is when men are afraid of the light."
> -- Plato
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
that she hit a semi-submerged tree or container.
That's the most common cause
of sudden catastrophic hull failure, is it not?
And BTW, the Patric O'Brien stories are NOT fictional.
Every gun fired, every injury,
and every on-board emergency
was taken from official RN records or officer's journals.
That they are applied to composite characters
detracts nothing from their accuracy.
That's part of the reason the Queen knighted O'Brien.
--
"We can easily forgive a child
who is afraid of the dark;
the real tragedy of life
is when men are afraid of the light."
-- Plato
> Is there any way to obviate the endless repetitions of these threads andAll it takes is for EACH responder to intelligently trim the quoted
> just show the original message and the one to which it is responding? It
> drives me crazy (not just in this forum, but elsewhere). Is there a
> technique that some of you have mastered? After awhile, I just want to
> exit and forget about the whole thing.
material from his reply, so only the relevant material remains. Too
many simply hit "Reply", type their response, and send it off with all
the garbage attached...
The "Topics" and "Hot Topics" views might also interest you. Click the tabs at the top of the messages page:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/messages
IMHO, as read on the webpage Yahoo's message system is the one of the best.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Michael Childs <michael_v_childs@...> wrote:
> Is there any way to obviate the endless repetitions of these threads and just show the original message and the one to which it is responding? It drives me crazy (not just in this forum, but elsewhere). Is there a technique that some of you have mastered? After awhile, I just want to exit and forget about the whole thing.
> Michael Childs
Is there any way to obviate the endless repetitions of these threads and just show the original message and the one to which it is responding? It drives me crazy (not just in this forum, but elsewhere). Is there a technique that some of you have mastered? After awhile, I just want to exit and forget about the whole thing.
accounts, but couldn't confirm, Bounty went east to avoid Sandy, then
headed west towards the coast behind the storm. "The ship’s course out of
Connecticut took it due east to try to avoid the oncoming hurricane Sandy.
Early on Sunday, the crew felt it had skirted the danger: A Facebook post
showed the ship’s position on a map well to the east of the storm’s
fiercest winds. They were mistaken. The ship was close to the tail end of
the hurricane as it whipped up the Atlantic coast."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/9zowp6r
Details of the ship's last hours are still sketchy. Did she encounter
worse conditions before she sank in gale force (35 kt.) winds and 18'
seas? Or did something give in a "mere" gale? On one of the other groups,
someone mentioned that the wind might have been blowing against the Gulf
Stream, creating waves more dangerous than their modest height would
suggest. The seas would have been bad because the hurricane had passed
through anyway. The CG helicopter crew said the seas had "no pattern."
Nasty. <sigh>
They still have hope that the skipper might be alive! The Gulf Stream
water is about 80°, so it would take a long time for him to succumb to
hypothermia, especially if his survival suit is intact. I'd probably
succumb to heat prostration if I was stuck in a rubber suit in those
temperatures. ;o) I hope they find him!
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 04:56:31 -0700, Rocky wrote:
> As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2
> things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you
> must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This
> storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well
> on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure .
> The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell
> would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that
> system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov.
> Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
--
John (jkohnen@...)
A sailor’s joys are as simple as a child’s. (Bernard Moitessier)
Hatteras Inlet has no bridge.
Justin
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jdmeddock" <jmeddock@...> wrote:
>
>
> Better check the bridge clearance there... bet it is 65' or less.
> Very shifty inlet channel. channel bouys usually not charted due to shifting. I'm going out on a limb and saying only possibility of NC duck-in is at Cape Fear.
> Might get in at Beaufort Inlet but would prolly fetch up on a bridge
> a mile or two in. No place to hide there in a NEer.
>
>
> Questions...
>
> 1. Was 40 miles off the Cape at Hatteras as much sea-room as she could manage?
> Can't be very weatherly even under power only.
>
> 2. Is it possible she couldn't weather Sable Island to attempt an escape to the East instead of South?
>
>
>
> Justin
>
>
> >
> > Get your Charts out and look at Hatteras Inlet - dredged to 32' - up to the
> > Rollinson Channel up into the sound where depths drop off to 20+ feet.
>
-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Ed Drapela<edrapela@...>wrote:If I remember correctly (questionable as I am rather long in the tooth) they took an old Scandinavian ketch/schooner and used that as a basis for the build. They are mostly oak on oak or Norwegian (pitch) pine on oak. Some are trunnel fastened but most were iron. They were massively constructed having ribs in 4X6 range on pretty close centers. There are still a bunch of them sailing.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:26 PMAfter chatter elsewhere, I may be confused on this:
- Is this BOUNTY actually 100% wood ?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:40 PM
Subject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
She was built in 1960 for the Marlon Brando version of Mutiny on the Bounty. According to Wikipedia, she drew 13 ft.
On Oct 30, 2012 9:29 AM, "Ed Drapela" <edrapela@...> wrote:
I don’t think that this vessel was the ROSE modified to play BOUNTY with Russell Crowe (If I remember right) but the modified Scandinavian vessel that played BOUNTY with Marlon Brando.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!This is a very serious issue - on our minds for a long time in this office.
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM, <captainrocky@...> wrote:
As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
If I remember correctly (questionable as I am rather long in the tooth) they took an old Scandinavian ketch/schooner and used that as a basis for the build. They are mostly oak on oak or Norwegian (pitch) pine on oak. Some are trunnel fastened but most were iron. They were massively constructed having ribs in 4X6 range on pretty close centers. There are still a bunch of them sailing.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:26 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
After chatter elsewhere, I may be confused on this:
- Is this BOUNTY actually 100% wood ?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:40 PM
Subject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
She was built in 1960 for the Marlon Brando version of Mutiny on the Bounty. According to Wikipedia, she drew 13 ft.
On Oct 30, 2012 9:29 AM, "Ed Drapela" <edrapela@...> wrote:
I don’t think that this vessel was the ROSE modified to play BOUNTY with Russell Crowe (If I remember right) but the modified Scandinavian vessel that played BOUNTY with Marlon Brando.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a very serious issue - on our minds for a long time in this office.
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.
-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM, <captainrocky@...> wrote:
As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/article/id/248155/
So no design connection, but there is a crew connection, assuming they are talking about the same Rose.
This sadly reminds me of the SV Fantome, lost with all hands in 1998 to hurricane Mitch. I had the privilege of being a guest aboard Fantome for 2 weeks the spring before she was lost. I still get a cold chill thinking about what Captain March and crew must have endured.
carl
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote:
>
> No connection to #225 ROSE - beyond BOUNTY being a large wooden 'Tall Ship' with comparable basic structural attributes, risks, and potential opportunities to mitigate against the worst calamities...
>
Seamanship in the Age of Sail
http://www.amazon.com/Seamanship-Age-Sail-Shiphandling-Contemporary/dp/0870219553/ref=pd_sim_b_12
HJ
On 10/30/2012 9:42 AM, Edward Bachmann wrote:This brings to mind thePatrick O'Brian books that were the basis for the movie Master and Commander.The books are easy-reads and show the everyday heroics needed to keep the old-time sailing ships afloat.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:Edward BachmannSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:42 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!This brings to mind thePatrick O'Brian books that were the basis for the movie Master and Commander.The books are easy-reads and show the everyday heroics needed to keep the old-time sailing ships afloat.
Very shifty inlet channel. channel bouys usually not charted due to shifting. I'm going out on a limb and saying only possibility of NC duck-in is at Cape Fear.
Might get in at Beaufort Inlet but would prolly fetch up on a bridge
a mile or two in. No place to hide there in a NEer.
Questions...
1. Was 40 miles off the Cape at Hatteras as much sea-room as she could manage?
Can't be very weatherly even under power only.
2. Is it possible she couldn't weather Sable Island to attempt an escape to the East instead of South?
Justin
>
> Get your Charts out and look at Hatteras Inlet - dredged to 32' - up to the
> Rollinson Channel up into the sound where depths drop off to 20+ feet.
Well, the Hong Kong "Bounty" was built in steel with 'pretty' wood-applications, is seems.
The lost BOUNTY was built at Smith & Ruhland in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia (most likely ) in all wood, with that yard's capability drawing in the ROSE-Project years later.
So the concerns about large wooden craft retain relevance.
For those interested in fairly new non-replica and larger wooden working craft search for the Japanese SHUGASHIMA class (620 tons) built well into the first decade of the 21st century. From the 1990s look at YAEYAMA class (1150 tons).
Built for the modern sizable 'Self-Defense Fleet' of Japan, both are wood with fiberglass sheathing...
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:philbolger@...Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 1:26 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!After chatter elsewhere, I may be confused on this:- Is this BOUNTY actually 100% wood ?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----From:Pierce NicholsSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:40 PMSubject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!She was built in 1960 for the Marlon Brando version of Mutiny on the Bounty. According to Wikipedia, she drew 13 ft.
On Oct 30, 2012 9:29 AM, "Ed Drapela" <edrapela@...> wrote:I don’t think that this vessel was the ROSE modified to play BOUNTY with Russell Crowe (If I remember right) but the modified Scandinavian vessel that played BOUNTY with Marlon Brando.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a very serious issue - on our minds for a long time in this office.
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.
-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM, <captainrocky@...> wrote:
As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:26 AM,<philbolger@...>wrote:After chatter elsewhere, I may be confused on this:- Is this BOUNTY actually 100% wood ?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&FSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:40 PMSubject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!She was built in 1960 for the Marlon Brando version of Mutiny on the Bounty. According to Wikipedia, she drew 13 ft.
On Oct 30, 2012 9:29 AM, "Ed Drapela" <edrapela@...> wrote:I don’t think that this vessel was the ROSE modified to play BOUNTY with Russell Crowe (If I remember right) but the modified Scandinavian vessel that played BOUNTY with Marlon Brando.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!This is a very serious issue - on our minds for a long time in this office.
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM, <captainrocky@...> wrote:
As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:Pierce NicholsSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:40 PMSubject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!She was built in 1960 for the Marlon Brando version of Mutiny on the Bounty. According to Wikipedia, she drew 13 ft.
On Oct 30, 2012 9:29 AM, "Ed Drapela" <edrapela@...> wrote:I don’t think that this vessel was the ROSE modified to play BOUNTY with Russell Crowe (If I remember right) but the modified Scandinavian vessel that played BOUNTY with Marlon Brando.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a very serious issue - on our minds for a long time in this office.
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.
-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM, <captainrocky@...> wrote:
As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
She was built in 1960 for the Marlon Brando version of Mutiny on the Bounty. According to Wikipedia, she drew 13 ft.
On Oct 30, 2012 9:29 AM, "Ed Drapela" <edrapela@...> wrote:I don’t think that this vessel was the ROSE modified to play BOUNTY with Russell Crowe (If I remember right) but the modified Scandinavian vessel that played BOUNTY with Marlon Brando.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!This is a very serious issue - on our minds for a long time in this office.
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM, <captainrocky@...> wrote:
As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:Ed DrapelaSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:29 PMSubject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!I dont think that this vessel was the ROSE modified to play BOUNTY with Russell Crowe (If I remember right) but the modified Scandinavian vessel that played BOUNTY with Marlon Brando.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a very serious issue - on our minds for a long time in this office.
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM, <captainrocky@...> wrote:
As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldnt the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isnt that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
I don’t think that this vessel was the ROSE modified to play BOUNTY with Russell Crowe (If I remember right) but the modified Scandinavian vessel that played BOUNTY with Marlon Brando.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofphilbolger@...
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a very serious issue - on our minds for a long time in this office.
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
From:Pierce Nichols
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.
-p
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM, <captainrocky@...> wrote:
As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
Bill,
Get your Charts out and look at Hatteras Inlet – dredged to 32’ – up to the Rollinson Channel up into the sound where depths drop off to 20+ feet. Across the top of the sound depths average 20+ feet up to Long Shoal where it shallows out to around 16’. Pick up the Intercoastal and up the Neuse River.
I don’t believe that that particular vessel drew much over 10-12’ so that makes it possible. Careful navigating , yes, but it can be done.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfBill Howard
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:44 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Regarding Ed Drapela's post:
I have sailed Pamlico and Albemarle sounds many times. There are no deep water rivers off Albemarle or Pamlico sounds. And the last place one wants to be is near the barrier islands off North Carolina during a storm. It would be impossible to navigate from sea through any of the shifting inlets into ... what? Shallow water! The deepest hole in either sound is about 24 feet.
Bill Howard
On Oct 30, 2012, at 10:33 AM, <philbolger@...> wrote:
On the matter of staying in port or going out to sea check out this significant example:
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=70372
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
From:Ed Drapela
Sent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:13 AM
Subject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Check the location – she was off Hatteras, a known graveyard of ships, she could have picked any one of several deep water rivers off Albemarle or Pamlico sounds. As it was, she was under power therefore could have availed herself of the Intercoastal in that region. Sorry, Pal, it looks like an error in judgment of the Captain. No insult to the crew, but I stand by my first statement.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCharles Schweickert
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:49 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
A good while back, Phil was asked by WOODENBOAT to review Capt. Parrott's book on tall-ship losses "Tall Ship Down". As part of the effort we went through running some numbers and detailing on feasibility and relative necessary efforts of upgrading such structures towards greater safety. Examining several of our conventional wooden-construction designs we mentioned in that review that our HMS ROSE (#225) could be made quite sinking-resistant with certain non-destructive doable, fiscally-plausible wooden-structure-correct measures, with limited impact on her daily utility. That thinking was put in this widely-publicized written format to cover certain serious issues, should ROSE ever suffer the fate of BOUNTY.
None of the ROSE owners did take advantage of this significant opportunity to upgrade her safety. Neither did any of the other designers or owners of their tall ships...
And new ones are designed and built without such measures, with the (frustrated) Coast Guard insisting on water-tight bulkheads at least. But if a plank failed across that bulkhead you are down 2 out of perhaps 4 or 5 volumes ?!
Sooner or later - now ? - that will 'hit the fan' for certain parties and then the replica fleet. Not upgrading that whole class of vessels may come to drive up if not de facto ruin the insurability and general reputation of conventionally-built wooden types, particularly these larger types.
Wooden Replicas do not necessarily have to sink upon breach of their hull and loss of pumping capability.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:Pierce NicholsSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:19 AMSubject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!Rocky,
Bounty was over 400 tons... and should have been ok in the conditions she sank in (40 kt wind, 18 foot seas). The reported flooding rate (two feet per hour, which pencils out to around ten gallons per second) was high enough that she must have had a substantial hole in her. The only things I can think of that could put that kind of hole in an otherwise sound ship are a sprung plank or the catastrophic failure of a through-hull fitting.
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.-pOn Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM,<captainrocky@...>wrote:As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela<edrapela@...>wrote:What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
On Oct 30, 2012, at 10:33 AM, <philbolger@...> wrote:On the matter of staying in port or going out to sea check out this significant example:
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=70372
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----From:Ed DrapelaSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:13 AMSubject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!Check the location – she was off Hatteras, a known graveyard of ships, she could have picked any one of several deep water rivers off Albemarle or Pamlico sounds. As it was, she was under power therefore could have availed herself of the Intercoastal in that region. Sorry, Pal, it looks like an error in judgment of the Captain. No insult to the crew, but I stand by my first statement.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCharles Schweickert
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:49 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
It's not clear if that flood rate was with or without working manual dewatering pumps. It wouldn't matter all that much, since there is no way the crew on board could have kept up with a 10 gps leak with manual pumps for more than an hour.
Given what I've seen on the tragedy so far, I strongly suspect a serious error of omission or commission on the part of the yard was the ultimate cause of the loss.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:56 AM,<captainrocky@...>wrote:As a 100 ton USCG charter boat captain of 30 yrs I can tell you guys 2 things . Bilge pumps will always fail when you need them most and you must always check weather forecasts in advance of long voyages. This storm was brewing in the Caribbean for 10 days and was tracked very well on the weather channels. No surprise to anyone living in Fl. for sure . The route for the Bounty was Connecticut to St. Pete fl. Why in the hell would you ever leave port knowing you would have to sail thru that system at one point in your voyage. Poor decisions cost lives. As Gov. Christie would say "don't be stupid!" Rocky
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela<edrapela@...>wrote:What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:33 AM,<philbolger@...>wrote:On the matter of staying in port or going out to sea check out this significant example:
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=70372
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F----- Original Message -----From:Ed DrapelaSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:13 AMSubject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!Check the location – she was off Hatteras, a known graveyard of ships, she could have picked any one of several deep water rivers off Albemarle or Pamlico sounds. As it was, she was under power therefore could have availed herself of the Intercoastal in that region. Sorry, Pal, it looks like an error in judgment of the Captain. No insult to the crew, but I stand by my first statement.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCharles Schweickert
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:49 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=70372
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----From:Ed DrapelaSent:Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:13 AMSubject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!Check the location she was off Hatteras, a known graveyard of ships, she could have picked any one of several deep water rivers off Albemarle or Pamlico sounds. As it was, she was under power therefore could have availed herself of the Intercoastal in that region. Sorry, Pal, it looks like an error in judgment of the Captain. No insult to the crew, but I stand by my first statement.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCharles Schweickert
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:49 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldnt the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isnt that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
Check the location – she was off Hatteras, a known graveyard of ships, she could have picked any one of several deep water rivers off Albemarle or Pamlico sounds. As it was, she was under power therefore could have availed herself of the Intercoastal in that region. Sorry, Pal, it looks like an error in judgment of the Captain. No insult to the crew, but I stand by my first statement.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCharles Schweickert
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:49 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela <edrapela@...> wrote:
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
From:"Charles Schweickert" <caschweickert@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 11:48:54 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
This is a deep draft vessel not capable of giong up some creek to seek refuge. The safest place for any vessel during a hurricane is accually at sea where it will not be pounded ti bits against a warf or pier. There are no idiots on a vessel of this sort. That statement is an insult to the sailors that were on board.
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Ed Drapela<edrapela@...>wrote:What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Jeffery Measamer<measamerj@...>wrote:Back in the 70's (US Navy) we put out to sea from Jacksonville several times to ride out hurricanes. I would imagine it has quite a draft so running up a nearby river might not have been an option. Even so with 18' seas and 40 mph winds it justdoesn't seem like it should have been that big a problem.From:Ed Drapela <edrapela@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 6:54 PM
Subject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 6:54 PM
Subject:RE: [bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
What idiot would take a vessel out of harbor in a hurricane? Shouldn’t the Captain headed up river and secured the vessel is a less vulnerable creek? Call me old fashioned but isn’t that the mark of a Captain?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofkayaker37
Sent:Monday, October 29, 2012 4:59 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] H.M.S. Bounty Sunk!
I know it's not a Bolger, but it is similiar to Rose, so unfortunately:
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing
http://t.news.msn.com/us/hms-bounty-reportedly-sunk-in-atlantic-2-crew-still-missing