Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"? (fir-ply checking - MDO as solution?)

On my first plywood boat I fell for the myth that simply coating it with epoxy would keep it from checking. Huh! After that I glass everything. Hull, superstructure, everything. No more problems. It may cost more to start with, but the reduced maintenance is worth it to me as I am not one of those people who love working on the boat more than being out using it! I love building, but the maintenance after,not! At this point in life I am wishing I had an all aluminum boat so I could totally ignore everything.
Bob


>
>
> I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in
> Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think).
> The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between
> layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further
> checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
>
> Dennis
>
>
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > From: jhkohnen@...
> > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
> >
> > Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
> > Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
> > plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
> > remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
> > road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
> > putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
> > seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
> > marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
> > the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
> > about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
> > "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
> > few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
> > face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
> > you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
> > than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
> > peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
> > life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
> > there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
> > fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
> > probably be plenty durable enough.
> >
> >http://www.roseburg.com/
> >
> > The Coots group:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
> >
> > My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
> >
> > --
> > John (jkohnen@...)
> > Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
> > tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
If you worry about the "paper" overlay of MDO you should worry about the
veneers coming apart too. ;o) The overlay is impregnated with the same goo
that holds the plywood together. It soaks up epoxy, and joints to it are
as strong as joints to bare plywood.

Sheathing MDO with fiberglass is a waste, though it'll work fine. You can
get MDO that's only got the overlay on one side, and then put the bare
side out where you need sheathing. MDO is usually just painted.

MDO is just the name of a type of plywood, there are different grades of
it, and the quality can differ between manufacturers. Oly Panel (formerly
Simpson) in Shelton, Wash. makes a couple of good MDOs, their Signal and
Crezon. A friend of mine built a Kayleigh out of Crezon MDO and it's
holding up well:

http://www.olypanel.com/

Some of the last makers of lapstrake runabouts use(d?) MDO for the planks.

On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:55:25 -0800, Susanne wrote:

> That question re-crossed my mind just now. My concern is on all joints
> having paper between the wood - or will just machining it off in those
> limited areas do the job ?
>
> How does epoxy and glass-cloth over MDO-paper work long-term on a
> hull-surface (vs. house and interior) ?
> ...

--
John (jkohnen@...)
Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing
something else. (Sir James Barrie)
Where are you getting MDO these days? And what "brand"?

HJ

Checking of plywood is not necessarily a "recent" phenom... my Black Skimmer,
> built in Maine way
> back in the '70's as far as I can determine, had some panels that were checking
> vigorously, some not
> so much by this century. (subsequently have sold the BS, hope the next owner
> really DOES put cloth
> and resin over the checking panels...) Sorry, do not know if this was built of FIR
> or east-coast
> plywood.
>
>
>
> Another little runabout I built back in the '60's (here in Pacific NW) used MDO =
> fir ply, virtually
> void-less, with a paper-coating applied by the factory, stuck-on with same (or
> similar) phenol
> glues, I believe... THAT surface, without epoxy, without glass-sheathing except at
> joints, "held"
> the marine-enamel without ANY checking for as long as I kept track of that boat,
> some 6-8 years...
> MDO would be my choice to this day (only wish the mills would make 1/4" MDO, but no
> call for it from
> sign-makers (the product's biggest market) as 1/4" is too "floppy" for
> free-standing highway signs,
> etc -- 3/8" is the thinnest I've ever found....)
>
>
>
> Wayne Gilham
>
>
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Mcfadden
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:21 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown,
> purchased in
> Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a
> polyurethane (I think).
> The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the
> black glue between
> layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully
> prevent further
> checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
>
> Dennis
>
>
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> From:jhkohnen@...
>> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>>
>> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
>> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
>> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
>> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
>> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
>> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
>> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
>> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
>> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
>> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
>> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
>> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
>> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
>> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
>> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
>> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
>> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
>> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
>> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
>> probably be plenty durable enough.
>>
>>http://www.roseburg.com/
>>
>> The Coots group:
>>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
>>
>> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
>>
>> --
>> John (jkohnen@...)
>> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
>> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
>> 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups
>> Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
'Prebuilding' that it - with a p - all to avoid 'Rebuilding' anytime soon...

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Monday, December 24, 2012 12:55 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"? (fir-ply checking - MDO as solution?)

That question re-crossed my mind just now.  My concern is on all joints having paper between the wood - or will just machining it off in those limited areas do the job ? 

How does epoxy and glass-cloth over MDO-paper work long-term on a hull-surface (vs. house and interior) ?

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Monday, December 24, 2012 12:49 PM
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"? (fir-ply checking - MDO as solution?)

 

Checking of plywood is not necessarily a "recent" phenom...  my Black Skimmer, built in Maine way back in the '70's as far as I can determine, had some panels that were checking vigorously, some not so much by this century.  (subsequently have sold the BS, hope the next owner really DOES put cloth and resin over the checking panels...)  Sorry, do not know if this was built of FIR or east-coast plywood.

Another little runabout I built back in the '60's (here in Pacific NW) used MDO = fir ply, virtually void-less, with a paper-coating applied by the factory, stuck-on with same (or similar) phenol glues, I believe... THAT surface, without epoxy, without glass-sheathing except at joints, "held" the marine-enamel without ANY checking for as long as I kept track of that boat, some 6-8 years...  MDO would be my choice to this day (only wish the mills would make 1/4" MDO, but no call for it from sign-makers (the product's biggest market) as 1/4" is too "floppy" for free-standing highway signs, etc -- 3/8" is the thinnest I've ever found....)

Wayne Gilham

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfDennis Mcfadden
Sent:Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:21 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

 

I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
 
Dennis
 

> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From:jhkohnen@...
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>
> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
> probably be plenty durable enough.
>
>http://www.roseburg.com/
>
> The Coots group:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
>
> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <*> To change settings via email:
>bolger-digest@yahoogroups.com
>bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

That question re-crossed my mind just now.  My concern is on all joints having paper between the wood - or will just machining it off in those limited areas do the job ? 

How does epoxy and glass-cloth over MDO-paper work long-term on a hull-surface (vs. house and interior) ?

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Monday, December 24, 2012 12:49 PM
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"? (fir-ply checking - MDO as solution?)

 

Checking of plywood is not necessarily a "recent" phenom...  my Black Skimmer, built in Maine way back in the '70's as far as I can determine, had some panels that were checking vigorously, some not so much by this century.  (subsequently have sold the BS, hope the next owner really DOES put cloth and resin over the checking panels...)  Sorry, do not know if this was built of FIR or east-coast plywood.

Another little runabout I built back in the '60's (here in Pacific NW) used MDO = fir ply, virtually void-less, with a paper-coating applied by the factory, stuck-on with same (or similar) phenol glues, I believe... THAT surface, without epoxy, without glass-sheathing except at joints, "held" the marine-enamel without ANY checking for as long as I kept track of that boat, some 6-8 years...  MDO would be my choice to this day (only wish the mills would make 1/4" MDO, but no call for it from sign-makers (the product's biggest market) as 1/4" is too "floppy" for free-standing highway signs, etc -- 3/8" is the thinnest I've ever found....)

Wayne Gilham

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfDennis Mcfadden
Sent:Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:21 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

 

I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
 
Dennis
 

> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From:jhkohnen@...
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>
> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
> probably be plenty durable enough.
>
>http://www.roseburg.com/
>
> The Coots group:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
>
> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <*> To change settings via email:
>bolger-digest@yahoogroups.com
>bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Just about all (recent) Doug.Fir seems prone to checking, and misbehaves most likely around 'footballs', present even on most 'A'-surfaces I've run across.  Ergo always glass-cloth set in epoxy on all outside Doug Fir surfaces - which in this project meant rebuilding all pieces on a table, if at possible, all the way to first layers of paint.  On working-type SACPAS-3 we went with two layers of 10oz cloth on the hull proper and single layer on house and roof and everywhere 'outside', including the really tedious areas and corners.  Doing most of the finishing work on tables allows decent finish faster without 'hanging upside-down' heart-breaking exertions.  Seams require rigorous policy to not have things 'move' over time.

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Monday, December 24, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

 

Great info from John(as usual)   Douglas fir is the original marine ply before we started shipping in from all over the world. Roseburg would be foolish  tell you to buy a product with lower profit margin. Marine today means "charge me more" doesn't it? DG not only rot resistant but pretty light. The yellow pine ply on the east coast is rot resistant(and real tough) but heavy
All company's do what they call multi marketing....sell the same product(under different labels) to different markets
High quality marine ply's provide a perfect finish...........and then most people cover it w/epoxy and glass???

On 12/23/2012 03:01 PM, Tim Jennings wrote:
 
This topic has been discussed many times on other forums, with no clear answer, as it seems to depend on one's situation.  I've asked Roseburg via e-mail what is the difference bewteen thier sanded exterior grade panels and their marine plys, but have never gotten an answer.  The web site specs for both are indentical, though the price for the marine is double the cost of the sanded exterior.  Maybe the only difference is that one is stamped "marine?" 
 
If a plywood is made with waterprool glue and has no voids or repairs, and one is going to thoroughly coat the ply with several coats of resin and glass, why not use it? 
 
Tim Jennings
Enfield, NH 
 
On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Dennis Mcfadden<dennis-mcfadden@...>wrote:
 



--
Tim Jennings
Director of Facilities
Cardigan Mountain School
62 Alumni Drive
Canaan, NH 03741
Phone: (603)523-3536
Cell:     (603)443-0279
Fax:     (603)523-3550
Home:  (603)632-
Email:  tjennings@...
WWW:http://www.cardigan.org

I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
 
Dennis
 
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From:jhkohnen@...
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>
> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
> probably be plenty durable enough.
>
>http://www.roseburg.com/
>
> The Coots group:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
>
> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <*> To change settings via email:
>bolger-digest@yahoogroups.com
>bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Checking of plywood is not necessarily a "recent" phenom...  my Black Skimmer, built in Maine way back in the '70's as far as I can determine, had some panels that were checking vigorously, some not so much by this century.  (subsequently have sold the BS, hope the next owner really DOES put cloth and resin over the checking panels...)  Sorry, do not know if this was built of FIR or east-coast plywood.

 

Another little runabout I built back in the '60's (here in Pacific NW) used MDO = fir ply, virtually void-less, with a paper-coating applied by the factory, stuck-on with same (or similar) phenol glues, I believe... THAT surface, without epoxy, without glass-sheathing except at joints, "held" the marine-enamel without ANY checking for as long as I kept track of that boat, some 6-8 years...  MDO would be my choice to this day (only wish the mills would make 1/4" MDO, but no call for it from sign-makers (the product's biggest market) as 1/4" is too "floppy" for free-standing highway signs, etc -- 3/8" is the thinnest I've ever found....)

 

Wayne Gilham

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfDennis Mcfadden
Sent:Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:21 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

 

 

I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
 
Dennis
 

> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com

> From:jhkohnen@...
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>
> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
> probably be plenty durable enough.
>
>http://www.roseburg.com/
>
> The Coots group:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
>
> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
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Great info from John(as usual)   Douglas fir is the original marine ply before we started shipping in from all over the world. Roseburg would be foolish  tell you to buy a product with lower profit margin. Marine today means "charge me more" doesn't it? DG not only rot resistant but pretty light. The yellow pine ply on the east coast is rot resistant(and real tough) but heavy
All company's do what they call multi marketing....sell the same product(under different labels) to different markets
High quality marine ply's provide a perfect finish...........and then most people cover it w/epoxy and glass???

On 12/23/2012 03:01 PM, Tim Jennings wrote:
This topic has been discussed many times on other forums, with no clear answer, as it seems to depend on one's situation.  I've asked Roseburg via e-mail what is the difference bewteen thier sanded exterior grade panels and their marine plys, but have never gotten an answer.  The web site specs for both are indentical, though the price for the marine is double the cost of the sanded exterior.  Maybe the only difference is that one is stamped "marine?"
If a plywood is made with waterprool glue and has no voids or repairs, and one is going to thoroughly coat the ply with several coats of resin and glass, why not use it?
Tim Jennings
Enfield, NH

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Dennis Mcfadden<dennis-mcfadden@...>wrote:

I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...

Dennis

> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From:jhkohnen@...
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>
> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
> probably be plenty durable enough.
>
>http://www.roseburg.com/
>
> The Coots group:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
>
> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
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--
Tim Jennings
Director of Facilities
Cardigan Mountain School
62 Alumni Drive
Canaan, NH 03741
Phone: (603)523-3536
Cell:     (603)443-0279
Fax:     (603)523-3550
Home:  (603)632-
Email:tjennings@...
WWW:http://www.cardigan.org

This topic has been discussed many times on other forums, with no clear answer, as it seems to depend on one's situation.  I've asked Roseburg via e-mail what is the difference bewteen thier sanded exterior grade panels and their marine plys, but have never gotten an answer.  The web site specs for both are indentical, though the price for the marine is double the cost of the sanded exterior.  Maybe the only difference is that one is stamped "marine?"
If a plywood is made with waterprool glue and has no voids or repairs, and one is going to thoroughly coat the ply with several coats of resin and glass, why not use it?
Tim Jennings
Enfield, NH

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Dennis Mcfadden<dennis-mcfadden@...>wrote:

I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...

Dennis

> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From:jhkohnen@...
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>
> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
> probably be plenty durable enough.
>
>http://www.roseburg.com/
>
> The Coots group:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
>
> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
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>
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>




--
Tim Jennings
Director of Facilities
Cardigan Mountain School
62 Alumni Drive
Canaan, NH 03741
Phone: (603)523-3536
Cell:     (603)443-0279
Fax:     (603)523-3550
Home:  (603)632-
Email:tjennings@...
WWW:http://www.cardigan.org
I'm with John on this in that I used marine grade fir ply ( maunufacturer unknown, purchased in Vancouver, Canada) . I coated it with epoxy but no fabric, followed with a polyurethane (I think). The checking set in shortly thereafter. I have sanded down to the point where the black glue between layers is discoloring the deck. A new coat of epoxy plus f/g fabric will hopefully prevent further checking. Varnish to follow when the weather warms up. The checking is a pain...
 
Dennis
 
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From: jhkohnen@...
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 21:13:22 -0800
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?
>
> Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
> Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
> plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
> remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
> road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
> putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
> seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
> marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
> the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
> about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
> "marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
> few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
> face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
> you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
> than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
> peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
> life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
> there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
> fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
> probably be plenty durable enough.
>
> http://www.roseburg.com/
>
> The Coots group:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/
>
> My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)
>
> --
> John (jkohnen@...)
> Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
> tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
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>
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> bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
Roseburg Forest Products is a pretty good manufacturer of plywood. The
Toledo Boathouse just built a Michalak skiff using their AC exterior
plywood and it looked good, even seemed to have Doug fir for the core (I
remember when the workers from the plywood mill (now defunct) down the
road from a biker bar I hung out in got all scandalized when they started
putting cottonwood core plies in their fir plywood! <g>). I don't recall
seeing any Roseburg marine plywood, but it's probably as good as any fir
marine plywood these days. Doug fir is more rot resistant than okoume and
the glue used in marine and exterior fir plywood is phenol formaldehyde,
about as waterproof as you can get, but the standards for American
"marine" plywood have been watered way down. :o( There will probably be a
few interior voids in each sheet, and several "football" patches in the
face plies. But the biggest problem with fir plywood is that it checks if
you don't sheathe it with fiberglass. The checking seems worse nowadays
than it used to be, probably because of stresses in the veneers from being
peeled from smaller trees. <shrug> Checking doesn't seem to affect the
life of a boat, but is unsightly, and _looks_ like it oughta be bad. But
there are plenty of old plywood boats around that were never sheathed with
fiberglass. <shrug> A boat built with Roseburg marine plywood will
probably be plenty durable enough.

http://www.roseburg.com/

The Coots group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/

My nephew is chef d'cuisine at The Pearl in Missoula. :o)

--
John (jkohnen@...)
Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit
tenant for the mind of an honest man. (Robert G. Ingersoll)
My 1967 Grand Banks Woodie trawler is still going strong.  built out of mahogany, oak and teak without any fiberglass except where I've puttied the house and bulwarks.

Well built wood boats will long outlast poorly built glass boats.

Tom 

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 21, 2012, at 3:03 PM, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:

 

  I agree when you are building very small square sharpies.  Still at some point many will get up into the bigger 20 ft and bigger boats with fairly fine lines. I gave my Elver as an example. Those boats are selling for several thousand dollars used.  Mine has cheap plywood in her and I will have to tell a buy that, if I sell her.  No I likely would not get the price of the wood out of her but I would likely get a better price.  She has really fine dacron sails  a really good galvanized trailer.  So the truth is the sails and trailor are the only things worth selling and I have had the pleasure of building a boat that has very little value.  I could have bought some plywood and slapped a boat together. Somebody would buy it at some point and user her a little and let her rot because she is not worth anything.  If thats the case why did I build her?  I could have bought an old Megregor 21 for probably less money and sailed the heck out of her. A good boat built out of good wood might well with a little care might well last me 40 or 50 years.           Doug  
 



On 12/21/2012 05:01 PM, Bill Howard wrote:
 

AMEN!


Boat building cost $$$$$$$
Marine Plywood Cost $$$$$$
Projected resale value:  $zero
Having built a first-class boat:  PRICELESS


On Dec 21, 2012, at 4:11 PM, christiancrandall wrote:

The reasons are non-economic.



-- 
                 Doug Pollard, 
      Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                Visit me at:http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DObsRslyJJohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F5DiZASKPs

Michael,
There was a delayed reaction to my mind waking up. You might try asking the:
The Oregon Coots Chapter of the Traditional Small Craft Association
atwww.coots.org
Probably the best way to ask them is to join their discussion group. Its kind of funny that their discussion group (being centered in a valley with a mountain range between them and the sea) is far more active than the discussion group for the Puget Sound Chapter of TSCA.
 
I make this suggestion because the Coots are located about 60 miles north of Roseburg and their local stores are more likely to be stocking plywood made near them. They are also likely to be aware of the challenges facing people who build small boats at home.
 
Sincerely,
Roger
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Seitz" <mikefrommontana@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:19 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Anybody use Roseburg "Marine Plywood"?

>I suspect I wasn't clear in my original post....
>
>
The question is if the Roseburg "Marine Plywood" is any good (no voids,
>
rot resistance etc).
> ...  I know a lot of
> boats are
built with other plywood sheets--I'm just asking about one
> brand
(Roseburg).
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Michael
Seitz
> Missoula MT
>
____________________________________________________________
> Woman is 53
But Looks 25
> Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered
doctors...
>
href="http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d5dd93edbce5d927913st03duc">http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d5dd93edbce5d927913st03duc
>
>
>
------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> -
NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
> - no cursing, flaming,
trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic,
stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your
comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip
C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> -
Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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>
I suspect I wasn't clear in my original post....

The question is if the Roseburg "Marine Plywood" is any good (no voids,
rot resistance etc).

Yes, I don't want to gold plate a build if I don't have to. Are BS1088
(or whatever) sheets the nicest? Sure, but they certainly can't be the
only game in town. Much as we'd like to think that buying the most
expensive sheet is the "best", I've heard horror stories of inferior
sheets getting that vaunted production stamp. So, the question
begs--what sheets (aside from the stamped ones) work? I know a lot of
boats are built with other plywood sheets--I'm just asking about one
brand (Roseburg).

Thanks again.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d5dd93edbce5d927913st03duc
Resale value would never occur to me in plywood choice. The difference in quality
of wood and ease of use sure would. Modern AC plywood is just too crappy to use on
a boat that I am going to put in over 40 50 hrs of building. I have two gulls in
the back yard, one built out of AC and one with marine oukume. That was the project
that convinced me that cheap plywood cost too much. If I am going to invest all
that time then I want a plywood I can trust not to come apart in 1-5 years.

HJ
>
>
> Oops, I was looking at half-sheet prices. The okoume would be about $90 a sheet, so
> instead of $35/sheet total cost, it's $122.75/sheet total cost.
>
> It's a lot of money--enough to make the difference between building it at all. The
> difference for, say, a Bolger Micro at 12 sheets would be $1,053.00 (in excess of
> the cheaper plywood), and for a Michalak Frolic 2 (13 sheets), it would be an added
> $1,140.00.
>
> Does anyone think that using a better quality plywood for these boats will increase
> the resale value by over $1,000?
>
> There are reasons for choosing the best plywood for building these boats. The
> reasons are non-economic.
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
>>
>> Now, ask me to pay three times the list price of nice plywood, when
>> shipping is included. So a reasonable plywood sheet might cost me $35,
>> and okoume might cost me $60, and so the difference seems small. But one
>> of the cheaper shipping options is clcboats.com, they want $123 for
>> shipping under 100 lbs. Since that's only 4 sheets of 6mm (1/4"), **each
>> sheet** costs me $25 more for the wood, and $32.75 more for the
>> shipping. So I'm paying close to $100 a sheet.
>>
>
>
>
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  I agree when you are building very small square sharpies.  Still at some point many will get up into the bigger 20 ft and bigger boats with fairly fine lines. I gave my Elver as an example. Those boats are selling for several thousand dollars used.  Mine has cheap plywood in her and I will have to tell a buy that, if I sell her.  No I likely would not get the price of the wood out of her but I would likely get a better price.  She has really fine dacron sails  a really good galvanized trailer.  So the truth is the sails and trailor are the only things worth selling and I have had the pleasure of building a boat that has very little value.  I could have bought some plywood and slapped a boat together. Somebody would buy it at some point and user her a little and let her rot because she is not worth anything.  If thats the case why did I build her?  I could have bought an old Megregor 21 for probably less money and sailed the heck out of her. A good boat built out of good wood might well with a little care might well last me 40 or 50 years.           Doug  
 



On 12/21/2012 05:01 PM, Bill Howard wrote:
 

AMEN!


Boat building cost $$$$$$$
Marine Plywood Cost $$$$$$
Projected resale value:  $zero
Having built a first-class boat:  PRICELESS


On Dec 21, 2012, at 4:11 PM, christiancrandall wrote:

The reasons are non-economic.



-- 
                 Doug Pollard, 
      Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                Visit me at:http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DObsRslyJJohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F5DiZASKPs
AMEN!

Boat building cost $$$$$$$
Marine Plywood Cost $$$$$$
Projected resale value:  $zero
Having built a first-class boat:  PRICELESS


On Dec 21, 2012, at 4:11 PM, christiancrandall wrote:

The reasons are non-economic.

Oops, I was looking at half-sheet prices. The okoume would be about $90 a sheet, so instead of $35/sheet total cost, it's $122.75/sheet total cost.

It's a lot of money--enough to make the difference between building it at all. The difference for, say, a Bolger Micro at 12 sheets would be $1,053.00 (in excess of the cheaper plywood), and for a Michalak Frolic 2 (13 sheets), it would be an added $1,140.00.

Does anyone think that using a better quality plywood for these boats will increase the resale value by over $1,000?

There are reasons for choosing the best plywood for building these boats. The reasons are non-economic.

-Chris



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
>
> Now, ask me to pay three times the list price of nice plywood, when
> shipping is included. So a reasonable plywood sheet might cost me $35,
> and okoume might cost me $60, and so the difference seems small. But one
> of the cheaper shipping options is clcboats.com, they want $123 for
> shipping under 100 lbs. Since that's only 4 sheets of 6mm (1/4"), **each
> sheet** costs me $25 more for the wood, and $32.75 more for the
> shipping. So I'm paying close to $100 a sheet.
>
I'm not much of a fan of the arguments about price of plywood. It *is*
important to keep in mind that the total cost of a boat is pretty high,
and the marginal cost of plywood isn't as large as it seems. Granted.

Now, ask me to pay three times the list price of nice plywood, when
shipping is included. So a reasonable plywood sheet might cost me $35,
and okoume might cost me $60, and so the difference seems small. But one
of the cheaper shipping options is clcboats.com, they want $123 for
shipping under 100 lbs. Since that's only 4 sheets of 6mm (1/4"), **each
sheet** costs me $25 more for the wood, and $32.75 more for the
shipping. So I'm paying close to $100 a sheet.

Arguments about resale value hold less water than interior-grade plywood
boats--first time boatbuilders can rarely get cost-of-materials out of
selling their used boats.

In short, asking people to buy the super-fancy plywood is asking a lot.
It's rarely a good economic choice. It *can* be a good choice, but
usually not for someone new to the game building their own boats.

Personally, I've used all kinds of different plywood building boats, and
for my 22 foot cabin skiff that I'm building now, I'm using half inch
MDO. It is excellent stuff, and I love using it. Douglas fir from the
PNW (like me).

-Chris
I guess I would consider how much work will I have to put into the boat to complete it.   I have an Elver I built.   She is strip planked and a really nice little boat. Considering what she is, she should have been built with the best of materials.  If I want to sell her I have to tell the buyer I built her out of cheap big box plywood.  To build her i spent about $800 on a bow shed. I boughts some sanders battery drills , screws, epoxy, Glass, paint, Led lights  anchors, sails line and so on.   For a couple hundred dollars I could have bought, if not marine grade at least top quality ply.  If your gonna build a throw away boat it does not matter.  If you want to keep her in a garage she will last indefinitely if built out of cheap plywood but if you want to sell her at some point, the buyer will figure that if you didn't think enough of her to use good material.   Then will hold her in the same amount of esteem as you did.     Doug

 On 12/20/2012 12:25 PM, Michael Seitz wrote:
 

While I could go crazy on my next build and run to the coast (8 hours)
and get Okume or Meranti at $90 a sheet, I'd just as soon not do that.

The local independent lumberyard has Roseburg (based in Oregon "Marine
Ply". This a a three ply sheet and runs about $50 a sheet (though they
might discount since it doesn't seem to be a fast mover for them). The
yard could probably also special order the nicer stuff, but it's still
going to run that $90 a sheet price by the time they get it in (and no
discount either).

So.... has anybody worked with the Roseburg sheet. It's not as pretty
as the HD Sandeply, but I want a voidless sheet that won't delaminate or
rot out if stored outside upside down over the winter.

Thanks again.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT
__________________________________________________________
Woman is 57 But Looks 27
Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d34a0df33ff4a0c38c8st04duc



-- 
                 Doug Pollard, 
      Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist 
                Visit me at:http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DObsRslyJJohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F5DiZASKPs
While I could go crazy on my next build and run to the coast (8 hours)
and get Okume or Meranti at $90 a sheet, I'd just as soon not do that.

The local independent lumberyard has Roseburg (based in Oregon "Marine
Ply". This a a three ply sheet and runs about $50 a sheet (though they
might discount since it doesn't seem to be a fast mover for them). The
yard could probably also special order the nicer stuff, but it's still
going to run that $90 a sheet price by the time they get it in (and no
discount either).

So.... has anybody worked with the Roseburg sheet. It's not as pretty
as the HD Sandeply, but I want a voidless sheet that won't delaminate or
rot out if stored outside upside down over the winter.

Thanks again.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 57 But Looks 27
Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50d34a0df33ff4a0c38c8st04duc