Re: paul fisher's loose moose 11 and phil bolger's loose moose 11
Hmm, yahoo or whoever now, split off the end of that post...
"Actually, the luggers at New Orleans dipped their lugsail only when there was room and when a tack was stood on for a long time. ... When on a tack that would have had the fore part of the sail aback against the mast, the tack of the sail was hauled out to windward on its long horse and held there by the fall... The powerful mainsheet was then utilized to flatten the foot of the sail as much as was possible, and this created a very flat sail, standing almost entirely to windward of the mast and with none of the sail aback except for a very slight amount at the yard, which did no appreciable harm." (ASSC, p285)
"They are centre board boats... very fast sailers as many a yachtsman has found out who has had a scrub race with them. They have to stem the swift current of the Mississippi and twist and turn up the many inlets and bayous that lead up back of the city of New Orleans in a veritable network of waterways. ... Two men are a crew for these boats which are easy to handle. The sail is not dipped in beating to windward but lays against the mast on one tack. This does not injure the draft of the mainsail as much as one might suppose because the tack is hauled snug over to the windward rail." (ASS,p51)
Chapelle says the New Orleans Luggers ranged in size from 18 to 45 feet. TheCenter for Traditional Louisiana Boat Buildingsays 18 to 50 feet.
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote :The proposal sketched is attractive alright. Maybe not quite a spry looking St Valery, nevertheless not lacking other charms....
A balanced lug main would necessarily be smaller in area to reduce heeling moment as its boom would have to be higher than the foot of the 'dipping' sail as drawn. The dipping lug, in any case a lifting sail, has less heeling moment, more drive, and also is more seaworthy without the boom to trip the boat.
Quite a few ways have been contrived to successfully manage a 'dipping' lugsail short handed. A few alternate rig examples:
As the boat comes about the sail rigged with doubled sheets may be hauled to pass around in front of the mast and bring the yard pivoting about with it quickly like the Beer lugger.
Or, another way if necessarily short tacking for a long stretch, the tack can be taken back to near the mast like a standing lug.
Or the tack may ride a horse rigged like on the 'dipping' New Orleans Lugger. On this 11m proposed cruiser such a horse could span a cathead or anchor platform extended to the sides near the bow, or the tack could be guyed to either side of that like a settee/lateen and shifted across. This rig arrangement may result in one tack that is a little worse than the other due to mast interference. However, the much touted, far overstated, dreaded failure of a dipping lugsail to tack and prevent coming about when on the 'wrong' side of the mast won't be found if rigged this way. If one tack is a bit less powerful just make that the short tack and away you go! Chapelle seems to be slightly of two minds on this. InAmerican Small Sailing Craft: Their Design, Development, and Construction(ASSC) he seems to say there is a bit more of a difference between tacks in drive than inAmerican Sailing Ships: Their Plans and History(ASS) he says pretty clearly there isn't much difference.
"Actually, the luggers at New Orleans dipped their lugsail only when there was room and when a tack was stood on for a long time. ... When on a tack that would have had the fore part of the sail aback against the mast, the tack of the sail was hauled out to windward on its long horse and held there by the fall... The powerful mainsheet was then utilized to flatten the foot of the sail as much as was possible, and this created a very flat sail, standing almost entirely to windward of the mast and with none of the sail aback except for a very slight amount at the yard, which did no appreciable harm." (ASSC, p285)
"They are centre board boats... very fast sailers as many a yachtsman has found out who has had a scrub race with them. They have to stem the swift current of the Mississippi and twist and turn up the many inlets and bayous that lead up back of the city of New Orleans in a veritable network of waterways. ... Two men are a crew for these boats which are easy to handle. The sail is not dipped in beating to windward but lays against the mast on one tack. This does not injure the draft of the mainsail as much as one might suppose because the tack is hauled snug over to the windward rail." (ASS,p51)
Chapelle says the New Orleans Luggers ranged in size from 18 to 45 feet. TheCenter for Traditional Louisiana Boat Buildingsays 18 to 50 feet.
http://volkscruiser.blogspot.com.au/2015/11/a-possible-project.html
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <tdsoren@...> wrote :I like it a lot. I'd probably go with a balance lug main instead of the dipping one though.TomOn Tuesday, May 15, 2018, 10:05:15 AM PDT, loosemoosefilmworks@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:No I don't but color me very interested if anyone else does?
Susanne?
Fact of the matter is the cartoon is one I keep coming back to as being as close to the next Loose Moose I've come across. I just love the deck space and general feel of it.
Bob
The proposal sketched is attractive alright. Maybe not quite a spry looking St Valery, nevertheless not lacking other charms....
A balanced lug main would necessarily be smaller in area to reduce heeling moment as its boom would have to be higher than the foot of the 'dipping' sail as drawn. The dipping lug, in any case a lifting sail, has less heeling moment, more drive, and also is more seaworthy without the boom to trip the boat.
Quite a few ways have been contrived to successfully manage a 'dipping' lugsail short handed. A few alternate rig examples:
As the boat comes about the sail rigged with doubled sheets may be hauled to pass around in front of the mast and bring the yard pivoting about with it quickly like the Beer lugger.
Or, another way if necessarily short tacking for a long stretch, the tack can be taken back to near the mast like a standing lug.
Or the tack may ride a horse rigged like on the 'dipping' New Orleans Lugger. On this 11m proposed cruiser such a horse could span a cathead or anchor platform extended to the sides near the bow, or the tack could be guyed to either side of that like a settee/lateen and shifted across. This rig arrangement may result in one tack that is a little worse than the other due to mast interference. However, the much touted, far overstated, dreaded failure of a dipping lugsail to tack and prevent coming about when on the 'wrong' side of the mast won't be found if rigged this way. If one tack is a bit less powerful just make that the short tack and away you go! Chapelle seems to be slightly of two minds on this. InAmerican Small Sailing Craft: Their Design, Development, and Construction(ASSC) he seems to say there is a bit more of a difference between tacks in drive than inAmerican Sailing Ships: Their Plans and History(ASS) he says pretty clearly there isn't much difference.
"Actually, the luggers at New Orleans dipped their lugsail only when there was room and when a tack was stood on for a long time. ... When on a tack that would have had the fore part of the sail aback against the mast, the tack of the sail was hauled out to windward on its long horse and held there by the fall... The powerful mainsheet was then utilized to flatten the foot of the sail as much as was possible, and this created a very flat sail, standing almost entirely to windward of the mast and with none of the sail aback except for a very slight amount at the yard, which did no appreciable harm." (ASSC, p285)
"They are centre board boats... very fast sailers as many a yachtsman has found out who has had a scrub race with them. They have to stem the swift current of the Mississippi and twist and turn up the many inlets and bayous that lead up back of the city of New Orleans in a veritable network of waterways. ... Two men are a crew for these boats which are easy to handle. The sail is not dipped in beating to windward but lays against the mast on one tack. This does not injure the draft of the mainsail as much as one might suppose because the tack is hauled snug over to the windward rail." (ASS,p51)
Chapelle says the New Orleans Luggers ranged in size from 18 to 45 feet. TheCenter for Traditional Louisiana Boat Buildingsays 18 to 50 feet.
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <tdsoren@...> wrote :I like it a lot. I'd probably go with a balance lug main instead of the dipping one though.TomOn Tuesday, May 15, 2018, 10:05:15 AM PDT, loosemoosefilmworks@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:No I don't but color me very interested if anyone else does?
Susanne?
Fact of the matter is the cartoon is one I keep coming back to as being as close to the next Loose Moose I've come across. I just love the deck space and general feel of it.
Bob
On Tuesday, May 15, 2018, 10:05:15 AM PDT, loosemoosefilmworks@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
No I don't but color me very interested if anyone else does?
Susanne?
Fact of the matter is the cartoon is one I keep coming back to as being as close to the next Loose Moose I've come across. I just love the deck space and general feel of it.
Bob
Get together a ‘Syndicate’ to spread the fiscal burden amongst each other – happened more than once in Phil’s work - , then hire me... to the usual (Phil) terms, you already are familiar with.
Up front, I’d be interested in the externally-applied Vee-Nose bow-geometry Phil and I cultivated across a growing number of designs, to get quiet at-rest behavior, decent powering into head-seas behavior, along wit no increase in draft, or beaching-problems.
Or come by yourself, Bob.
Susanne
No I don't but color me very interested if anyone else
does?
Susanne?
Fact of the matter is the cartoon is one I keep
coming back to as being as close to the next Loose Moose I've come across. I
just love the deck space and general feel of it.
Bob
Susanne?
Fact of the matter is the cartoon is one I keep coming back to as being as close to the next Loose Moose I've come across. I just love the deck space and general feel of it.
Bob
Bob, do you, or anyone else for that matter, know what happened to the other 36ft cruiser design PCB offered you that he was at the time developing for the Micro #1 guy, Martti Fredrikson?
11m x 2.48m x 0.6m. Ketch! Water ballast! Traierable. Dipping lug main! Offcenter-board, 6 berths, pivoting unstayed masts. Plenty to like!
http://volkscruiser.blogspot.com.au/2015/11/a-possible-project.html
I realize that this is an old thread but as a couple of people have asked me recently about the subject of who designed Loose Moose 2...
When we were ready to build a bigger Loose Moose we asked Phil if he could design it but as it happened he was busy on other projects and could not get to it within our window of opportunity, Phil advised me to just design it myself but, at the time, I was somewhat leery of doing that.
So, we asked several other designers including Paul Fisher and Paul's ideas seemed in line with our so we commissioned him to design the new boat.
Plans in hand we found a place to build and were in the process of waiting for our space to become open when I realized that the Fisher design really was not what we wanted and we faxed Phil to ask if his schedule had cleared up any. Luckily for us Phil had a hole in his schedule so we gave him the go ahead and a few weeks later had the plans for Loose Moose 2 and a little less than a year later we launched LM2.
One of the best decisions I've ever made.
All the best
Bob
On 02/14/2013 03:57 PM, David wrote:
My understanding is that Loose Moose is Bob & Sheila Wise's name for their boat (and business among other things). Loose Moose was a Jessie Cooper, Loose Moose II was the Bolger AS39, I assume Loose Moose III or IV is their current boat and that Loose Moose IV or V will be the next one. Fisher's Loose Moose was a design for the Wise's but no relation to Bolger's. The size of boat was defined by the client requirements and I presume that the general style from the construction constraints/experience with Jessie Cooper. However, I see no more connection between them than between Bolger's Apogee and Chuck Paine's Apogee. They are two completely different designs with the same name.
Having the full plans of LMII (studied in detail with the view to building) I am ever more convinced that Phil Bolger's legacy needs to be passed on and built on.
Bolger writes in BWAOM that AS29 is derived from Jessie Cooper and LMII is clearly a member of the same family. Being in proud posession of almost all Bolger books and a significant number of plans, I do not cease to be amazed by Phil Bolger's creativity, flexibility and practical common sense combined with a detailed knowledge of most things nautical.
Even leaving aside the "conventional professional boatyard" designs, one can see a connection between many of PCB's designs, yet unlike other designers, few are a simple "stretched version" of something else.
Even cases like Chebacco (where he expressly states that he "stretched"...) there are subtle differences which for the most part have practical explanations. e.g. He goes from plywood panel to lapstrake, does different cuddys/trunks, keel/centreboard options. To boot, PB&F then go on to offer all the options as a package and call them the same boat and let you choose which version to build...
In the end, all boats are holes in the water that we play or work in. Bolger just varied on the theme during his life, all the way from Tortoise to Rose, in so many ways and so many shapes and sizes and styles that I cannot cease to wonder how so much came out of one brain and off one drawing board.
I often long to see the many designs that are not documented in the books or elsewhere, as I am convinced that every sketch, drawing and plan reveals a brilliant thought process not available anywhere else.
David
Santiago, Chile
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> Yeah Mathew in a sense you are right they are different designs, but are
> they really. I grew up sailing sharpies and I would have never in my
> wildest dream thought anyone would would build a square sided box add a
> flat bottom with rocker and a chine that created so little drag and then
> add a barge type bow. You could say well it's just a box and that is the
> genius of Mr Bolger. Nobody in their right mind befor him would have
> ever suggested that you could go to sea in such a boat. Both boats
> have these same features in common and they are the things that make the
> boats sharpies. I think a huge part of Mr. Bolgers designs is that you
> can say , well hell that's nothing but a square box and the next thing
> you say is man look at her sail and anyone that knows which end of a
> screwdriver to look through can build her. Doug
>
> On 02/13/2013 05:56 AM, Matthew Long wrote:
> >
> > I don't think that's right, there may be a spiritual connection with
> > Jessie Cooper but Loose Moose is definitely its own unique design.
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com,
> > Douglas Pollard wrote:
> > >
> > > AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which
> > > originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig
> > > lee-boards and likely some other changes. I would guess that neither
> > > would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up. Maybe someone else designed
> > > those features???? Doug
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Doug Pollard,
> Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist
> Visit me at:
>
>http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
>
--
Doug Pollard,
Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist
Visit me at:http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/Having the full plans of LMII (studied in detail with the view to building) I am ever more convinced that Phil Bolger's legacy needs to be passed on and built on.
Bolger writes in BWAOM that AS29 is derived from Jessie Cooper and LMII is clearly a member of the same family. Being in proud posession of almost all Bolger books and a significant number of plans, I do not cease to be amazed by Phil Bolger's creativity, flexibility and practical common sense combined with a detailed knowledge of most things nautical.
Even leaving aside the "conventional professional boatyard" designs, one can see a connection between many of PCB's designs, yet unlike other designers, few are a simple "stretched version" of something else.
Even cases like Chebacco (where he expressly states that he "stretched"...) there are subtle differences which for the most part have practical explanations. e.g. He goes from plywood panel to lapstrake, does different cuddys/trunks, keel/centreboard options. To boot, PB&F then go on to offer all the options as a package and call them the same boat and let you choose which version to build...
In the end, all boats are holes in the water that we play or work in. Bolger just varied on the theme during his life, all the way from Tortoise to Rose, in so many ways and so many shapes and sizes and styles that I cannot cease to wonder how so much came out of one brain and off one drawing board.
I often long to see the many designs that are not documented in the books or elsewhere, as I am convinced that every sketch, drawing and plan reveals a brilliant thought process not available anywhere else.
David
Santiago, Chile
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> Yeah Mathew in a sense you are right they are different designs, but are
> they really. I grew up sailing sharpies and I would have never in my
> wildest dream thought anyone would would build a square sided box add a
> flat bottom with rocker and a chine that created so little drag and then
> add a barge type bow. You could say well it's just a box and that is the
> genius of Mr Bolger. Nobody in their right mind befor him would have
> ever suggested that you could go to sea in such a boat. Both boats
> have these same features in common and they are the things that make the
> boats sharpies. I think a huge part of Mr. Bolgers designs is that you
> can say , well hell that's nothing but a square box and the next thing
> you say is man look at her sail and anyone that knows which end of a
> screwdriver to look through can build her. Doug
>
> On 02/13/2013 05:56 AM, Matthew Long wrote:
> >
> > I don't think that's right, there may be a spiritual connection with
> > Jessie Cooper but Loose Moose is definitely its own unique design.
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com,
> > Douglas Pollard wrote:
> > >
> > > AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which
> > > originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig
> > > lee-boards and likely some other changes. I would guess that neither
> > > would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up. Maybe someone else designed
> > > those features???? Doug
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Doug Pollard,
> Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist
> Visit me at:
>
>http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/
>
On 02/13/2013 05:56 AM, Matthew Long wrote:
I don't think that's right, there may be a spiritual connection with Jessie Cooper but Loose Moose is definitely its own unique design.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which
> originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig
> lee-boards and likely some other changes. I would guess that neither
> would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up. Maybe someone else designed
> those features???? Doug
--
Doug Pollard,
Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist
Visit me at:http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
> AS far as I know Loose Moose is an extended Jessie Cooper which
> originally was a bolger design. They changed her some with Schooner rig
> lee-boards and likely some other changes. I would guess that neither
> would have been Mr. Bolgers preferd set up. Maybe someone else designed
> those features???? Doug
>Thanks to all, and especially mr. and mrs. Wise.
>
>
> Pretty much...
>
> We asked Phil to design Loose Moose 2 but he told us that he had a huge backlog and could not get to it for a few years. As a result we commissioned Selway Fisher to design a boat for us...
>
> We were all set to build the Selway Fisher design except the boat occupying our building site was not quite ready to launch and the Selway Fisher design, under second thought, was looking less and less like the boat we actually wanted...
>
> So we wrote Phil as something of a hail Mary and, as it happened, he had just had someone cancel and had a hole in his schedule.
>
> A couple of months later we had the plans Phil drew for the real Loose Moose 2 and less than a year later we were sailing it.
>
> Best thing we ever did!
>
> Bob & Sheila
>
On 02/12/2013 06:33 PM, Dan Burrill wrote:
I don't know for definite, but my guess would be that both designers were asked to design a boat to the same specification, and the Wise's built the one they preferred.
On 12/02/2013 23:24, Jim wrote:Does anyone know why two designers both claim to have designed the boat? I seems, from published pictures, that the design the Wise's built was the Bolger design.
--
Doug Pollard,
Sailor, Machinst, writer,artist
Visit me at:http://sailboatsfairandfine.blogspot.com/You could ask Bob Wise.I don't know for definite, but my guess would be that both designers were asked to design a boat to the same specification, and the Wise's built the one they preferred.
On 12/02/2013 23:24, Jim wrote:Does anyone know why two designers both claim to have designed the boat? I seems, from published pictures, that the design the Wise's built was the Bolger design.
His web site ishttp://www.paradiseconnections.com/contact.html
He has been helpful to me about details of the boat.Mike Allison (North of Kansas City Mo, USA)
We asked Phil to design Loose Moose 2 but he told us that he had a huge backlog and could not get to it for a few years. As a result we commissioned Selway Fisher to design a boat for us...
We were all set to build the Selway Fisher design except the boat occupying our building site was not quite ready to launch and the Selway Fisher design, under second thought, was looking less and less like the boat we actually wanted...
So we wrote Phil as something of a hail Mary and, as it happened, he had just had someone cancel and had a hole in his schedule.
A couple of months later we had the plans Phil drew for the real Loose Moose 2 and less than a year later we were sailing it.
Best thing we ever did!
Bob & Sheila
On 12/02/2013 23:24, Jim wrote:
Does anyone know why two designers both claim to have designed the boat? I seems, from published pictures, that the design the Wise's built was the Bolger design.