Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser
I've found the rig to be very well behaved on all points of sail and with that large wall of sail let out 90 degrees downwind the boat flys. The battens and fixed parrels ensure that the sail doesn't billow
when it's being lowered and also keep the strain on the polytarp fabric down so that it doesn't stretch.
A lot of polytarp sails are simply rags put up on a stick, but with a bit of thought your homebuilt sail can be effective. Over the years, I've taken a number of experienced sailors out. They come away scratching their heads at the utility, all round performance and power of a rig that they invariably pre-judge as being a toy.
Here's a YouTube video of her in action.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2Jo9QAI3Y
Cheers,
Rob.
> frank (didn't mean to rant)
> ps just to complete my thesis i would suggest that the Fully Battened Bermudan is the natural fulfillment of the (misguidedly popular IMO) Junk rig. - just don't use a bolt rope in a track - use slides or lacing so it dowses.
>
Her insightful comment was "It seems like it's more common to have to much wind than not enough" Smaller sails are always easier to handle
Conditions /needs are alway local New England Coast...good wind?...slippery Bolger hull(cause it wasn't his rig) Bolger believed in a generous rig..that's one of the reasons his boats are so fast!
And then maybe the most valuable component was her ability/gumption to take the summer to mess around in a not so small boat Great Fun
On 02/28/2013 07:51 AM, John Trussell wrote:
There is no free lunch.
Bermudamains require a longer mast. With a conventional boom, they generally require a boom vang. A sprit boom is a marvelous solution, but if you reef a sail with a sprit boom, the boom moves forward where it will interfere with a jib. Lowering any sail with a spar at its head can be a challenge, particularly in a breeze. In the case of lug sails, this can be made easier if the boat has lazy jacks, but the lazy jacks are a complication, requiring a little bit of hardware and quite a lot of line. I prefer a lug on small boats because it is efficient and fairly well behaved off the wind. Sprit sails use short spars which are easily stored and they are difficult to control off the wind. Pulling a sprit out of the sail on a breezy day can be a challenge, but a brailing line will take the stress out of this process. But nothing is perfect. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. Each of us place different values on the advantages and disadvantages. The only valid reason to build your own boat (other than whatever pleasure you get from the process) is to have a boat that suits/pleases you. Build whichever rig you like.
Anyone contemplating changing rigs would do well to read Jim Michalak’s essays on figuring centers of sail area, PCB’s100 Small Boat Rigs, and David Nichol’sThe Working Guide to Traditional Small-Boat Sails.
Have fun.
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Offrank raisin
Sent:Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:44 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser
hi folks,
just a thought - but i find i have gone off lugs and balanced lugs unless they are easily controlled. when it all starts getting a bit unsettling, i don't want a loose log up there in the sky banging around wanting to brain me - and another thing with most 'hoist a spar' rigs that ups my anxiety stakes is that as one eases the sheet when hard pressed they tend , instead of relaxing progressively, they can power upeven more! the popular sprit rig seems worst in this regard - like trying to go to windward with a parachute spinnaker, it powers up as you ease the sheet - then dumps the power all at once and flogs - most disconcerting!
i was brought up on fully battened Bermudan mains - most civilized - not only did the stress reduce progressively and proportionally as the sheet was eased but the full battens reduced the flogging (but i have experienced a gust so heavy it caused the battened main to flog - and so heavily it pulled me over - .....)
i think that Phil was sensible to prefer leg o' mutton because they tend to self-tend and progressively feather off at the top. they are long enough in the foot to have enough power in a simple sail , and the mast , though long, is heavily tapered (theoretically it can taper to nothing - or just enough to tie off to). in the usual application of minimal sophistication this rig is all round forgiving (IMVHO!) - and the sprit boom further removes the risks of being clubbed
frank (didn't mean to rant)
ps just to complete my thesis i would suggest that the Fully Battened Bermudan is the natural fulfillment of the (misguidedly popular IMO) Junk rig. - just don't use a bolt rope in a track - use slides or lacing so it dowses.
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From:alias1719@...
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:32:57 +0000
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gravelyrider"<denandel01@...>wrote:
> >
> > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
>
> Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe - and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking forward to hearing how it works out!
>
> Good luck - Dave Gentry
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209 , Gloucester , MA , 01930 , Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
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Frank,
I’ve never wanted a regular lug rig with that heavy flail looking for someone to hit. The late model balanced lugs are different. With both booms captured to the mast and light high strength booms they aren’t so dangerous. Some of those run 6:1 purchases even on sails under 100 square feet.
MylesJ
There is no free lunch.
Bermudamains require a longer mast. With a conventional boom, they generally require a boom vang. A sprit boom is a marvelous solution, but if you reef a sail with a sprit boom, the boom moves forward where it will interfere with a jib. Lowering any sail with a spar at its head can be a challenge, particularly in a breeze. In the case of lug sails, this can be made easier if the boat has lazy jacks, but the lazy jacks are a complication, requiring a little bit of hardware and quite a lot of line. I prefer a lug on small boats because it is efficient and fairly well behaved off the wind. Sprit sails use short spars which are easily stored and they are difficult to control off the wind. Pulling a sprit out of the sail on a breezy day can be a challenge, but a brailing line will take the stress out of this process. But nothing is perfect. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. Each of us place different values on the advantages and disadvantages. The only valid reason to build your own boat (other than whatever pleasure you get from the process) is to have a boat that suits/pleases you. Build whichever rig you like.
Anyone contemplating changing rigs would do well to read Jim Michalak’s essays on figuring centers of sail area, PCB’s100 Small Boat Rigs, and David Nichol’sThe Working Guide to Traditional Small-Boat Sails.
Have fun.
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Offrank raisin
Sent:Wednesday, February 27, 2013
7:44 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:RE: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe
/ Japanese beach cruiser
hi folks,
just a thought - but i find i have gone off lugs and balanced lugs unless they are easily controlled. when it all starts getting a bit unsettling, i don't want a loose log up there in the sky banging around wanting to brain me - and another thing with most 'hoist a spar' rigs that ups my anxiety stakes is that as one eases the sheet when hard pressed they tend , instead of relaxing progressively, they can power upeven more! the popular sprit rig seems worst in this regard - like trying to go to windward with a parachute spinnaker, it powers up as you ease the sheet - then dumps the power all at once and flogs - most disconcerting!
i was brought up on fully battened Bermudan mains - most civilized - not only did the stress reduce progressively and proportionally as the sheet was eased but the full battens reduced the flogging (but i have experienced a gust so heavy it caused the battened main to flog - and so heavily it pulled me over - .....)
i think that Phil was sensible to prefer leg o' mutton because they tend to self-tend and progressively feather off at the top. they are long enough in the foot to have enough power in a simple sail , and the mast , though long, is heavily tapered (theoretically it can taper to nothing - or just enough to tie off to). in the usual application of minimal sophistication this rig is all round forgiving (IMVHO!) - and the sprit boom further removes the risks of being clubbed
frank (didn't mean to rant)
ps just to complete my thesis i would suggest that the Fully Battened Bermudan is the natural fulfillment of the (misguidedly popular IMO) Junk rig. - just don't use a bolt rope in a track - use slides or lacing so it dowses.
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From: alias1719@..."gravelyrider" <denandel01@...> wrote:
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:32:57 +0000
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com ,
> >lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
> > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with
> >and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking forward to hearing how it works out!
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
>
> Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe -
>horses
> Good luck - Dave Gentry
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' postsBox 1209 , Gloucester , MA , 01930 , Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O.
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comGroups Links
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> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> From: alias1719@...
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:32:57 +0000
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe / Japanese beach cruiser
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gravelyrider" <denandel01@...> wrote:
> >
> > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
>
> Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe - and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking forward to hearing how it works out!
>
> Good luck - Dave Gentry
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
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>
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> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
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>
>Just wanted to say that the balanced lug rig looks good on the Old Shoe - and is likely just what that boat needs to make it more user friendly. Looking forward to hearing how it works out!
> when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
Good luck - Dave Gentry
The COE is in the same place as the original so I hope there will not be any major issues sailing her. Since the pic was taken, I have adjusted the mast a little more upright. The mizzen is staying.
See this photo to show the new sail COE lined up over the old COE.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/764333064/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> What size is the balanced lug? Its Coe is a lot further aft than the original. It will be interesting to see how she sails.
>
> Do you intend to keep the mizzen?
>
> David
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gravelyrider" <denandel01@> wrote:
> >
> > when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it is.
> > >
> > > Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so forth.
> > >
> > > Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with leeboards... (At least yet).
> > >
> > > David
> > > Santiago, Chile
> > > (Studying my AS39 plans)
> > >
> >
>
Do you intend to keep the mizzen?
David
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gravelyrider" <denandel01@...> wrote:
>
> when spring gets to upstate ny i'll let you know how my Oldshoe with lug rig works. the mast is a lot easier to transport than the 19 footer originally planned for.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
> >
> > 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it is.
> >
> > Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so forth.
> >
> > Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with leeboards... (At least yet).
> >
> > David
> > Santiago, Chile
> > (Studying my AS39 plans)
> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/1239860332/pic/624499304/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it is.
>
> Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so forth.
>
> Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with leeboards... (At least yet).
>
> David
> Santiago, Chile
> (Studying my AS39 plans)
>
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> Joe
>
> I agree that Oldshoe is "unappreciated".
>
> As a day sailer and to send the kids out in their own (properly out of sight) it really takes some beating.
>
> I had great fun building and continue to have great fun sailing. I have absolutely no regrets about having built and it has definitely been a lot of fun for the money (both building and sailing). Realistically she is easy to trailer (except the launching on beaches or bad ramps) and a real joy to mess about in. The mast is only a problem for trailering. Stepping it has never been an issue for me.
>
> My doubt is whether a it's actually worth having a 12' ballasted boat you have to trailer. For similar trouble and little more investment I could have had a 15 or 20' boat which would be a lot more boat. Storing and upkeep of the 12' is much easier of course.
>
> For what she is, I think Oldshoe is fantastic and a tribute to her designer.
>
> David.
>
I agree that Oldshoe is "unappreciated".
As a day sailer and to send the kids out in their own (properly out of sight) it really takes some beating.
I had great fun building and continue to have great fun sailing. I have absolutely no regrets about having built and it has definitely been a lot of fun for the money (both building and sailing). Realistically she is easy to trailer (except the launching on beaches or bad ramps) and a real joy to mess about in. The mast is only a problem for trailering. Stepping it has never been an issue for me.
My doubt is whether a it's actually worth having a 12' ballasted boat you have to trailer. For similar trouble and little more investment I could have had a 15 or 20' boat which would be a lot more boat. Storing and upkeep of the 12' is much easier of course.
For what she is, I think Oldshoe is fantastic and a tribute to her designer.
David.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@> wrote:
>
> Very unappreciated design.
> >
> If you haven't seen them, Photos of my Oldshoe in Bolger 6:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/files/Joe%20Tribulato%27s%20Oldshoe/
>
> Australian Oldshoe video:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwIcfSNEasU
> >
> > Nels
>
>
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well
> > sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether
> > to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until
> > now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it
> > is.
> > >
>
> > > David
> > > Santiago, Chile
> > > (Studying my AS39 plans)
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
Very unappreciated design.
>
If you haven't seen them, Photos of my Oldshoe in Bolger 6:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/files/Joe%20Tribulato%27s%20Oldshoe/
Australian Oldshoe video:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwIcfSNEasU
>
> Nels
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
> >
> > 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well
> sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether
> to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until
> now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it
> is.
> >
> > David
> > Santiago, Chile
> > (Studying my AS39 plans)
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> 4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much enjoyed and well sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering whether to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it is.
>
> Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so forth.
>
> Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with leeboards... (At least yet).
>
> David
> Santiago, Chile
> (Studying my AS39 plans)
>
David,
Anything is possible. PCB says that the rig he used on Old Shoe is,”…the best all-around rig for daytime cruising in crowded waters.” I suspect he chose to use a sprit main sail in the Japanese Beach Cruiser because the short spars allow the rig to be taken down and stored inside the boat. I note that sails without booms are attractive because they don’t have a boom to hit someone’s head. However, they do require some care in arranging sheeting and they present some challenges sailing off the wind. Unless you are having problems stepping the mast, I would be inclined to keep the original rig and get new sails.
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf OfDavid
Sent:Friday, February 22, 2013
7:38 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Oldshoe /
Japanese beach cruiser
4 years ago I built Oldshoe which has been much
enjoyed and well sailed. I am coming round to a major maintenance and wondering
whether to order a suit of sails to replace the polytarp ones I have used until
now. In all fairness I love the boat and the way it works for what it is.
Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading
BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and
started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig
which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went
on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby
effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope
within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so
forth.
Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and
inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with
leeboards... (At least yet).
David
Santiago ,
Chile
(Studying my AS39 plans)
Sitting in my dreaming chair the other day I was struck yet again when reading BWAOM by the similarity in size and layout between these two designs and started thinking (always dangerous). I first was tempted to take the JBC rig which would be so much easier to transport and rig than Oldshoes. I then went on to notice that JBC does not have the well in the bow and stern, thereby effectively sailing in her full length rather than a 8.5' watertight envelope within a 12' boat. Then, of course the leeboards are great fun and so on and so forth.
Any ideas on how the JBC rig would go with Oldshoe keeping the keel and inboard. Rudder? I don't fancy taking the lead keel off to experiment with leeboards... (At least yet).
David
Santiago, Chile
(Studying my AS39 plans)