RE: RE: RE: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher
First, I do not set up as an expert, though I take an interest in these things and think what I say here would conform to what Phil says on the subject in 100 Rigs..
A lug sail by definition has no attachment to the mast. It’s always a four-sided sail with its head carried on a yard, and the yard hauled aloft by a halyard. A tack or boom attachment or downhaul provides the tension on the luff whereby the peak is raised by the same halyard. This luff tension is crucial to the set of the sail.
All lug sails come down when you want them down, fast. Possibly all a-cock, possibly overboard, and possibly knocking you out with their yards, but down. Let go halyard, and look out.
In the case with the Solent lug, the luff lies close behind the mast, and a tack downhaul holds the tack down while the halyard brings the yard close behind and nearly in line with the mast, so that once set the sail is very similar to a gunter.
(In a gunter, the yard has a jaw at its foot, usually with a parrel keeping it to the mast, and the luff has hoops or lacing to the mast.) In a gunter, you likely have just the one halyard just as with the Solent lug, and tension on the luff stop the rise of the foot of the yard so that further hauling brings the yard against the mast.)
Now let me think about the reasons why the Solent lug was the best choice when Phil wanted to increase the horsepower on Birdwatcher.
It let him get a taller rig without a longer mast. Gunter would have done that too. Well, one reason is that a sprit boom, which for various reasons he wanted, would conflict with the yard’s jaws going up and down. Busy, I will leave it at that for now, adding only that the simplicity of the original Birdwatcher rig, possibly complicated only by a little jib added, as I did on my first BW, is a sweet thing. The Solent lug required a fiercely strong and hard-set tack downhaul to work well, and it and its yard made a lot of sail and spar to handle in the standing room. The boat did sail fast with it, and it was pretty!.
--Mason
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofsunraydust@...
Sent:Monday, November 25, 2013 10:23 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:RE: RE: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher
Mason, since you offered, I am indeed asking.
What is the difference between the solent lug and the gunter lug? and why is the solent better on the Birdwatcher?
Thanks, Peter
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <masonsmith@...> wrote:
Would it be worth throwing in here that the larger sail rig for the Birdwatcher was not a gunter, but a Solent lug? In practice that’s quite a different thing, and no one should think that they are interchangeable. I had Birdwatchers with both rigs and once went to the trouble to figure out why Phil had used the Solent rig. I concluded that it was the right and only choice but will not bother the group with all the reasons (unless somebody asks for them).
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfConnor, Patrick
Sent:Sunday, November 24, 2013 5:48 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher
Yes at a displacement of 44,000 lbs as I recall.
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "paull01@..." <paull01@...> wrote:
On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
Paul
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in ;LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:
About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Di splacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Mason, since you offered, I am indeed asking.
What is the difference between the solent lug and the gunter lug? and why is the solent better on the Birdwatcher?
Thanks, Peter
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <masonsmith@...> wrote:Would it be worth throwing in here that the larger sail rig for the Birdwatcher was not a gunter, but a Solent lug? In practice that’s quite a different thing, and no one should think that they are interchangeable. I had Birdwatchers with both rigs and once went to the trouble to figure out why Phil had used the Solent rig. I concluded that it was the right and only choice but will not bother the group with all the reasons (unless somebody asks for them).
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfConnor, Patrick
Sent:Sunday, November 24, 2013 5:48 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher
Yes at a displacement of 44,000 lbs as I recall.
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "paull01@..." <paull01@...> wrote:
On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
Paul
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in ;LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:
About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Di splacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:41 PM, "Leigh" <Leighpilot@...> wrote:
Hi FolksI did the silly thing of removing the leeboards from my MJ without noting how the lines ran that attached it. Has anyone got photos or a clear diagram of how that's done? The plans are not very clear.Here she is<image.jpeg>Thanks
Leigh RossOn the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
Paul
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Hi Folks
Leigh Ross
On Nov 24, 2013, at 6:44, <paull01@...> wrote:
On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
Paul
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Would it be worth throwing in here that the larger sail rig for the Birdwatcher was not a gunter, but a Solent lug? In practice that’s quite a different thing, and no one should think that they are interchangeable. I had Birdwatchers with both rigs and once went to the trouble to figure out why Phil had used the Solent rig. I concluded that it was the right and only choice but will not bother the group with all the reasons (unless somebody asks for them).
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfConnor, Patrick
Sent:Sunday, November 24, 2013 5:48 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] RE: Big Birdwatcher
Yes at a displacement of 44,000 lbs as I recall.
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "paull01@..." <paull01@...> wrote:
On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
Paul
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in ;LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:
About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Di splacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2013, at 8:14 PM, "paull01@..." <paull01@...> wrote:
On the rig...I'd call it a straight scale up of Phil's gunter rig from the 23.5 foot birdwatcher. If you look at this website:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
Paul
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/hogfish-maximus-44ish-sailing-sharpie-34759.html
you can get an idea of a scant draft sharpie with a bermudan rig. It can be done.
Paul
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Hi c.ruzer. Sorry I'm slow on the posts...still figuring out the new format. The drawings were only my fantasy after a quick phone conversation with Suzanne. No talk about scantlings or cost of materials. As I recall, Phil recommended the AS29 for my purposes over the ESC - I believe he didn't like the crudeness of the ESC stern for seagoing purposes. I guess it's never been tried at the larger size so who can say.
Paul
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
but STILL NOT GOOD enough to design a boat going out to sea..
SO far I have been lucky and I have cheated quite a bit. In fact I
look at boats pick out what I like about one and another and sort of
put parts together..My first design was a "Cheat".. Back in 1985 there
was a cute little book ( SADLY NOW GONE ) in our library that was
about boat building and had some plans. The book was very old and IF I
had been Dishonest I would have "lost it" and paid for it. BUT being
honest it's Really LOST now...What I did was pick out a small boat
plan and draw it on graph paper..
It was 8 feet long and 24 inches at the bow with 12 degree flair on
the sides..I SCALED parts of it up..
I moved the bow out to 30 inches at the bottom..moved the aft end out
to 40 inches at the bottom. With the flair I managed to get 44 inches
at the rail on the stern and 36 at the bow..
She turned out to be a cute little Jon Boat type boat with that flat
bottom.. All in all I did a good job on my FIRST boat and attempt to
change a design...BUT...
I felt I made a mistake on the side boards..I cut them Exactly like
the plans..12 inches tall...Having the eye of an artist I stood back
and looked at my newly designed boat and noticed ONE BIG PROBLEM...The
sides SHOULD have been 14 inches NOT 12.. That 2 inches makes a BIG
difference on a Small boat..Adding to the sides is easy but instead I
sold the boat for 125 dollars to a man who wanted it like it was.. A
few months later he and his wife ( it would carry quite a bit of
weight) were in it and she leaned over, dropped a rail and swamped the
boat..Luckily they were in shallow water, both picked the boat up,
dumped the water got inside and paddled home.. They fed the boat to
the termites..
One day I was looking at an 8 foot scow intended for protected waters
with some boat wakes and waves once in a while.... I did the math to
double her....
IF I had simply doubled the size here is what the new boat would look like..
It would be 16 feet long...64 inches wide..(48 - 50 would have been
more practical) with sides 32 inches high..(18 -20 would have been
more practical)...This is on a small boat.. What if we double that
boat again..
We now have a 32 feet long boat...width is now expanded to over 10.5
feet. ,,the sides jump to a massive just over 5 feet high.. Double
that again and it goes crazy..A 64 footer with over 10 foot high
sides..This is a good example of what happens on a simple DOUBLE the
the boat..
BUT the good thing is.. IF you do the math you can simply get an IDEA
about what you are doing..
You can draw up the boat double size and then look at it ( well if you
have the talent for it ) and see what you need to change to make the
boat better..
I also make models of boats and float the models...LOTS of work (play
for me) but it helps a lot..
I make poster board models using double sided tape and let my eye and
my brain work on the idea. I guess many years many boats were built
like that by men with an artistic mind..
BUT I am gifted and do not think everyone should be able to do what I do..
A good example of my eye and brain working in great detail is once I
looked at a device and told the man he had to bottom braces at least
an inch to short and the rig would collapse.. He ask me HOW I could
sit in my pick up truck, look at his rig over 50 feet away and tell
him that. I said Please measure them before someone is killed..He
grabbed a tape made the measurement, looked at the plans and said, "Oh
my gosh".. He had measured the plans from BOLT hole to BOLT hole and
cut the braces to short...He was amazed. It may have ( Probably did)
save a life or at least kept someone from being hurt.. This may be why
I have been lucky at boat designs..ALSO I know my limits.. I will
never build a boat over 16 feet long. MY MIstakes will always be small
enough to fix.. Smile..BUT that does not mean someone else can't do
it.. Good day, Chief
On 10/29/13,c.ruzer@...<c.ruzer@...> wrote:
> You're not up to speed with the plan Leigh, either the ESC or BW series,
> sorry.
>
>
> ---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <Leighpilot@...> wrote:
>
> Now there's an idea! A really really bad one but an idea none the less.
> Bearing in mind that scaling is a fixed percentage change in length , is
> squared in area and cubed in volume.
>
>
> So increasing a boat by 15% in length will result in a 44% increase in
> material weight 65% change in interior volume. Want to guess what that's
> done to the ballast ratio,stability curves,hull stiffness etc?
>
>
> Pay a designer to change the plans or draw up a new boat. It's a lot
> cheaper than an upside down boat or a broken boat. There's many good
> reasons why forty foot boats don't look like scaled up 20ft boats.
>
> Leigh Ross
>
> 484 464 1575 C
> 610 624 1730 H
>
>
> www.unicornkayaks.comhttp://www.unicornkayaks.com
>
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2013, at 6:17, <c.ruzer@... mailto:c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>
>
> Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
>
> Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall
> possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were
> USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this
> larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any
> case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC
> and you're away!!!
>
> Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead
> flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're
> calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and
> ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy
> stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I
> suppose.
>
> By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big
> Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?),
> and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the
> overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park
> figures of ... what?
>
>
> ---Inbolger@yahoogroups.commailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...>
> wrote:
>
> About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as
> an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I
> didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But
> I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
>
> I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a
> study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an
> interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher
> to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good
> shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by
> Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
>
> The stats look like:
> Length 38ft
> LOA close to 40ft
> Beam 9ft
> Draft cb up 16in
> Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
> Not sure about weight or Displacement
>
> I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside
> the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up
> minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as
> structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I
> imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit
> smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she
> proposed it to me.
>
> Paul
> Seattle
>
>
>
>
>
>
You're not up to speed with the plan Leigh, either theESC or BW series, sorry.
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <Leighpilot@...> wrote:Now there's an idea! A really really bad one but an idea none the less. Bearing in mind that scaling is a fixed percentage change in length , is squared in area and cubed in volume.So increasing a boat by 15% in length will result in a 44% increase in material weight 65% change in interior volume. Want to guess what that's done to the ballast ratio,stability curves,hull stiffness etc?Pay a designer to change the plans or draw up a new boat. It's a lot cheaper than an upside down boat or a broken boat. There's many good reasons why forty foot boats don't look like scaled up 20ft boats.
Leigh RossOn Oct 28, 2013, at 6:17, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
No, not a whalewatcher type. See in Photos for the original poster Paul's (Seattle) illustrations.
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <sirdarnell@...> wrote:Wouldn't a big birdwatcher be a Whalewatcher - design #561?
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Wouldn't a big birdwatcher be a Whalewatcher - design #561?
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Leigh Ross
On Oct 28, 2013, at 6:17, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
Ida's Beachcomber is an interesting type for an attractive purpose.
Interesting big Birdwatcher sketches Paul. The rig looks a might too tall possibly for the hull to bear. I think Susanne said the ESC plans were USD300, so why not scale up from those instead of scaling down from this larger proposal? There's only 5ft 6in LOA ( 12%? )between them in any case... add the 'pinky' stern and opened cockpit you seem to want to the ESC and you're away!!!
Well almost away - there is that unique ESC/Eeek/Anhinga aft bottom dead flat run and aft ballast behaviour when heeled to consider, but you're calling her Big Birdwatcher and as the Birdwatchers have their COB and ballast also situated significantly aft for similar low immersed pointy stern resistance, and other reasons, there's not much of a leap to make I suppose.
By the way, what were the scantlings sizes talked about for Big Birdwatcher... 0.5in plywood sheathing, or greater? How many sheets (60?), and the bill of materials in total? The sloop rig would add a lot to the overall on the water sail away cost... which was talked of in ball park figures of ... what?
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <paull01@...> wrote:About a decade ago, Susanne called me to propose a scaled up Birdwatcher as an answer to a better version of the Economy Seagoing Cruiser or BigEeek. I didn't have the bucks back then to have Phil and Susanne do the design. But I did keep the idea in the back of my mind.
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle
I still don't have the $ to develop this cruiser, nor build it, but as a study for my developing CAD skills, I thought someone else might take an interest in a design possibility. I've added a folder called Big Birdwatcher to the files section to show a few screenshots. I think it'd make a good shoal draft cruiser on the order of Ida Little's Beachcomber design by Warren Bailey for someone who could get it built.
The stats look like:
Length 38ft
LOA close to 40ft
Beam 9ft
Draft cb up 16in
Draft cb dn 5ft 8in
Not sure about weight or Displacement
I spent a fair amt of time to figure out how to helm comfortably from inside the pilot house. I think the athwartships wheels would work well and take up minimal space. I also moved the CB all the way over to stbd as far as structure would allow to provide a walkway next to the double berth. I imagine this boat could be scaled down a bit, but it still is quite a bit smaller displacement than the AS39 as I believe Susanne pointed out when she proposed it to me.
Paul
Seattle