Re: [bolger] Admiral name?

HJ,
My curiosity was stirred up by this so I took a look at:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_of_Lauria
 
Part of his strategy was highly trained, lightweight, and nimble crews with simple weapons. So its easy to see why Bolger thought the success of this admiral was significant - skillful use of simplicity.
 
Thanks for brining this up.
 
May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight, balance, cooperation, and warm laughter,
Roger
 
----- Original Message -----
From: <welshman@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Admiral name?

> That's the guy.
>
> Thanks
>
>
HJ
>
> Roger de Lauria ?
That's the guy.

Thanks

HJ

Roger de Lauria ?
>
> From:welshman@...
> Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:52 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Admiral name?
>
>
> I am away from my books at home. In one of Bolger's books he mentions an Admiral
> who was either Venetian or Spanish who won an impressiveness number of engagements.
> Can any body give me the name and era of this individual?
>
> HJ
>
>
>
>
Andrea Doria?


On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 4:39 PM,<philbolger@...>wrote:

Roger de Lauria ?
Sent:Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:52 PM
Subject:[bolger] Admiral name?

I am away from my books at home. In one of Bolger's books he mentions an Admiral
who was either Venetian or Spanish who won an impressiveness number of engagements.
Can any body give me the name and era of this individual?

HJ




--
William Hegarty
Reference Librarian
Larchmont Public Library
121 Larchmont Ave.
Larchmont, NY 10538
(914) 834-2281
Roger de Lauria ?
 
Sent:Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:52 PM
Subject:[bolger] Admiral name?
 
 

I am away from my books at home. In one of Bolger's books he mentions an Admiral
who was either Venetian or Spanish who won an impressiveness number of engagements.
Can any body give me the name and era of this individual?

HJ

I am away from my books at home. In one of Bolger's books he mentions an Admiral
who was either Venetian or Spanish who won an impressiveness number of engagements.
Can any body give me the name and era of this individual?

HJ
Chief,
I'm always curious about trees, do you know what kind of cedar it is you are referring to here?
 
That is really interesting about pine and Titebond II.
 
Here in the land of Douglas fir, in the Pacific Northwest, we are seeing more and more pine. The nice Douglas fir wood came from old growth that is mostly gone now, and it takes that species a really long time to produce large trees with lots of clear heartwood. The pines in the south seem to grow faster, and so I think the pine tree farms there produce more wood per acre per year than the Douglas fir tree farms here do. So it seems likely we will be seeing more pine here as time moves on.
 
When I grew up, pine was considered adequate for cheap disposable uses of wood. However I'm fond of pine and much of my furniture is made from pine. Part of the inside of the home I grew up in was paneled with tongue and grove pine. So I'm inclined to use pine, where it will work well.
 
These days a lot of the "fir" here is actually hemlock, which I don't like as well as Douglass fir or pine.
 
So its good to know you think well of pine for boats. I think I'd rather use high quality pine than trashy fir, especially if it isn't really fir in the first place. Also pine is lighter than fir, which is good for small boats you move around by hand.
 
We have a lot of really damp cold weather here. If stuff in an unheated uninsulated shed gets really cold, and then a foggy drizzly warm front comes through, a layer of condensation will form on the cold surfaces inside the shed, and the tools tend to rust a bit from this.
 
You would think that tools in sheaths would trap this moisture and rust worse than the exposed tools, but it doesn't work that way. I don't use rubber sheaths, they are either leather, fabric, or carpet and so are permeable to moisture and will dry out if the tool was wet when it was put into the sheath. The sheathed tools in my shed don't rust the way the exposed metal on other tools does.
 
So whether the moisture condensing out on the boats is frozen or liquid, it seems like covering them with blankets would help protect the wood from picking up moisture from condensation when they are in storage.
 
May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight, balance, cooperation, and warm laughter,
Roger
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chief Redelk" <chiefredelk@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [bolger] cedar paneling

> I've cut a lot of Cedar trees.. If it lays on the ground for very long
> the soft parts rot away like a pine tree, pretty fast.. All
that will
> be left is the heart and it does not rot fast.. There is not
much of
> it but it makes good kindling like the pine heart. I would not
build a
> boat out of Cedar UNLESS..It were cedar strips cut out of a
cedar
> board. ALSO.. IF I used cedar strips ( once they were used to
build
> canoes ) I would make sure to cover it and keep water off the
wood.
> Years ago cedar canoes were covered in Canvas and paint... SO..
the
> short answer is. NO..I simply would NOT use this stuff...I don't
like
> it any better than Luan..
>
> Years ago I found some
Luan that was decent and it did not check but
> over the years Luan has
gotten so sorry it's almost usless... I did
> use some lately......Pine
WILL check every time..No exceptions.....
> Most woods WILL check if used
on a boat. The small cracks open the
> paint lets water seep under the
paint into the wood and the wood
> swells further cracking the paint and
water can soak into the wood
> causing rot..In winter the wet wood freezes
and damages the boat even
> more... To stop Checking I laminate my wood
with a fabric and
> paint.....
>
> On a cheap boat I use
Titebond II to stop checking. I now use pine ply
> plywood for all my
boats..So far this has worked well stopping
> Checking on all wood
including Luan....I apply TB2 to the new wood
> then coat that with
Exterior Latex house Paint so the two can cure as
> one....
>
> Apply TB2 with a brush and DO NOT miss one spot of new wood..Soak
it
> into cracks etc. It will heal and seal...IF you could find the
voids
> and fill them with this it will seal them as well. I have injected
it
> into voids by drilling a small hole and using a syringe and
>
needle...It takes a while to fill a void due to shrinkage..If you cut
> a
bigger hole you can pack it with wet saw dust and TB2. Eventually it
>
will fill and works well. I tape over that with FB..
>
> For an
expensive boat I would use Epoxy and fiberglass..
>
> My next boat
will be12 feet long. It will be heavier than a Luan boat
> but it will be
trailered. It will be built out of 1/4 Ext. Glue Pine
> Plywood and 3/8.
All wood will be sealed with TB2 and painted over
> with Latex Paint..It
will be stored dry out of the sun and it will
> last a very long time.
There is a benefit to a sort of heavy boat. It
> will move through a tack
better and it may sail better.. In water
> weight is not as important ( up
to a point ) was it is to a man
> handling the boat on land..
>
> The problem with 3 ply Ext Glue Pine plywood is Moisture
causing
> WRINKLES or big long strips of bubbles where the top coat
buckles due
> to a void beneath.. It looks ugly but if it's small and
inside the
> hull it's seldom a real problem. Some of them open will crack
and open
> and those I fix...The ones that do not open up I don't bother
with if
> they are small and inside the hull. When the boat is fabric
coated on
> the exterior I have never had the hull wrinkle. If not coated
with
> fabric and the wood does wrinkly you can fix the wrinkle easy. Cut
it
> out and glue in a strip or fill and epoxy and glass over....
.
>
> After a while you will have found all the weak spots and
repaired
> them. In fact as my boats age they look better due to making
repairs
> and adding more paint..In fact they are better..
>
> I wet sanded ( latex must be wet sanded ) and painted my old
Skiff
> this year. She looks new is solid and better than the day she
was
> born..I scarphed the mast making it longer and went from a Sprit
sail
> to a Leg Of mutton..
>
> All my boats are dry stored..
In fact during winter I cover them with
> blankets inside the shed so
moisture don't form on them as Frost..
> Frost can form on things rain and
snow can't reach..
>
> Taking care of a boat is the life of a
boat.. Wooden boats can last
> for a life time. I expect to die and leave
some nice boats behind..
> Old but nice..
>
> If my grandsons
take care of them these boats will be alive when they
> die and none of
them are made out of expensive wood. ONLY 1 has Marine
> Grade Plywood.
That MG ply checked like crazy until I put fabric on
> it.. Good luck,
Chief...
>
> On 11/14/13, Christopher C. Wetherill <
href="mailto:wetherillc@...">wetherillc@...> wrote:
>> There are also the questions of what species the non-display
plies come
>> from and what glue was used.  Most paneling consists
of a finish veneer
>> laid over a cheap core and a non-finish back skin
with interior grade
>> glue.  I would not want to bet my life on
paneling.
>>
>> V/R
>>
Chris
>>
>>
>> On 11/14/2013 11:59 AM, Roger Padvorac
wrote:
>>> ?
>>>
>>> A critical issue is
checking if the wood plies are heartwood or
>>> sapwood. This could
vary from sheet to sheet, so people's experience
>>> with it could
vary.
>>> While the heartwood of the western red cedar is more
resistant to rot
>>> than the heartwood of Douglass fir, the sapwood
of western red cedar
>>> rots faster than the heartwood of Douglass
fir.
>>> Confusing this situation is that while the western red
cedar is in the
>>> cypress family, in the genus Thuja, and cedars
are in the pine family
>>> in the genus Cedrus.
>>> It
seems possible that the difference in rot resistance between
>>>
sapwood and heartwood is a common issue, and with the general lowering
>>> of standards, that there could be more sapwood in
plywood than there
>>> used to be. As a general rule of thumb, the
sapwood is lighter in
>>> color than the heartwood.
>>>
It seems likely the sapwood of western red cedar is so vulnerable to
>>> rot in part because it is so soft. While its hardwood of
western red
>>> cedar is also comparatively soft, it is also
saturated with very toxic
>>> chemicals (unlike the sapwood), and so
is very resistant to rot. These
>>> issues might affect other Thuja
and Cedrus species.
>>> May your day be filled with clarity, grace,
strength, insight,
>>> balance, cooperating, and warm
laughter,
>>>
Roger
>>>
>>>     ----- Original
Message -----
>>>     *From:*
href="mailto:chadnn@...">chadnn@...<mailto:chadnn@...>
>>>     *To:*
href="mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com">bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>>>     *Sent:* Thursday,
November 14, 2013 5:53 AM
>>>     *Subject:*
[bolger] cedar paneling
>>>
>>>    
Has anyone use 8mm x 48" x 96"  cedar paneling (see Home Depot) to
>>>     build a boat
?
>>>
>>>    
Thanks
>>>
>>>    
_,_.___
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger
rules!!!
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Thanks for the replies.  Will check that off my list. 



---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <roger@...> wrote:

Chris,
Your description reminded me of the fourth Cheech and Chong movie "Things Are Tough All Over" where they drive cross county. The car gradually falls apart until there is nothing left of it and they are left sitting in the middle of the road.
 
This skit wouldn't be so funny if this was a boat and you were a long away offshore in bad weather.
 
Even cheap exterior plywood generally delaminates slowly enough that you have enough warning to head back to shore. A risk of quick massive delimitation sounds a bit scary, especially if its thin plywood.
 
Recently I washed a pair of inexpensive running shoes, and the glue dissolved while they were being washed, so now I have a pile of shoe parts.
 
* * * *
I think we are on the downside of a peak in manufacturing quality, and need to be very cautious about glue quality.
 
Since manufacturing standards can quickly shift, and different plants have different standards, when buying generic plywood it seems reasonable to buy only one sheet of plywood, cut out a piece and do a boil test on it. Then if it passes the boil test, quickly go back and buy more of that plywood, as long as its from the same lot that the boil test was done on.
 
If stock isn't from the same lot, then start over with buying a single piece of plywood, do a boil test on part of it, and then if it passes, try to buy more of the same lot.
 
* * * *
I suppose an advantage of buying MDO, with markings on it from a known manufacturer, is that the main market for it is commercial firms creating outdoor signs, and so if the plywood delaminated before it rotted, then the manufacture would quickly loose their market share.
 
Buying generic commodity plywood is seeming lots riskier now than it used to be.
 
May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight, balance, cooperation, and warm laughter,
Roger
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:44 AM
Subject:Re: [Bulk] Re: [bolger] cedar paneling

There are also the questions of what species the non-display plies come fromand what glue was used.  Most paneling consists of a finish veneer laid over a cheap core and a non-finish back skin with interior grade glue.  I would not want to bet my life on paneling.

V/R
Chris


Chris,
Your description reminded me of the fourth Cheech and Chong movie "Things Are Tough All Over" where they drive cross county. The car gradually falls apart until there is nothing left of it and they are left sitting in the middle of the road.
 
This skit wouldn't be so funny if this was a boat and you were a long away offshore in bad weather.
 
Even cheap exterior plywood generally delaminates slowly enough that you have enough warning to head back to shore. A risk of quick massive delimitation sounds a bit scary, especially if its thin plywood.
 
Recently I washed a pair of inexpensive running shoes, and the glue dissolved while they were being washed, so now I have a pile of shoe parts.
 
* * * *
I think we are on the downside of a peak in manufacturing quality, and need to be very cautious about glue quality.
 
Since manufacturing standards can quickly shift, and different plants have different standards, when buying generic plywood it seems reasonable to buy only one sheet of plywood, cut out a piece and do a boil test on it. Then if it passes the boil test, quickly go back and buy more of that plywood, as long as its from the same lot that the boil test was done on.
 
If stock isn't from the same lot, then start over with buying a single piece of plywood, do a boil test on part of it, and then if it passes, try to buy more of the same lot.
 
* * * *
I suppose an advantage of buying MDO, with markings on it from a known manufacturer, is that the main market for it is commercial firms creating outdoor signs, and so if the plywood delaminated before it rotted, then the manufacture would quickly loose their market share.
 
Buying generic commodity plywood is seeming lots riskier now than it used to be.
 
May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight, balance, cooperation, and warm laughter,
Roger
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:44 AM
Subject:Re: [Bulk] Re: [bolger] cedar paneling

There are also the questions of what species the non-display plies come fromand what glue was used.  Most paneling consists of a finish veneer laid over a cheap core and a non-finish back skin with interior grade glue.  I would not want to bet my life on paneling.

V/R
Chris


I've cut a lot of Cedar trees.. If it lays on the ground for very long
the soft parts rot away like a pine tree, pretty fast.. All that will
be left is the heart and it does not rot fast.. There is not much of
it but it makes good kindling like the pine heart. I would not build a
boat out of Cedar UNLESS..It were cedar strips cut out of a cedar
board. ALSO.. IF I used cedar strips ( once they were used to build
canoes ) I would make sure to cover it and keep water off the wood.
Years ago cedar canoes were covered in Canvas and paint... SO.. the
short answer is. NO..I simply would NOT use this stuff...I don't like
it any better than Luan..

Years ago I found some Luan that was decent and it did not check but
over the years Luan has gotten so sorry it's almost usless... I did
use some lately......Pine WILL check every time..No exceptions.....
Most woods WILL check if used on a boat. The small cracks open the
paint lets water seep under the paint into the wood and the wood
swells further cracking the paint and water can soak into the wood
causing rot..In winter the wet wood freezes and damages the boat even
more... To stop Checking I laminate my wood with a fabric and
paint.....

On a cheap boat I use Titebond II to stop checking. I now use pine ply
plywood for all my boats..So far this has worked well stopping
Checking on all wood including Luan....I apply TB2 to the new wood
then coat that with Exterior Latex house Paint so the two can cure as
one....

Apply TB2 with a brush and DO NOT miss one spot of new wood..Soak it
into cracks etc. It will heal and seal...IF you could find the voids
and fill them with this it will seal them as well. I have injected it
into voids by drilling a small hole and using a syringe and
needle...It takes a while to fill a void due to shrinkage..If you cut
a bigger hole you can pack it with wet saw dust and TB2. Eventually it
will fill and works well. I tape over that with FB..

For an expensive boat I would use Epoxy and fiberglass..

My next boat will be12 feet long. It will be heavier than a Luan boat
but it will be trailered. It will be built out of 1/4 Ext. Glue Pine
Plywood and 3/8. All wood will be sealed with TB2 and painted over
with Latex Paint..It will be stored dry out of the sun and it will
last a very long time. There is a benefit to a sort of heavy boat. It
will move through a tack better and it may sail better.. In water
weight is not as important ( up to a point ) was it is to a man
handling the boat on land..

The problem with 3 ply Ext Glue Pine plywood is Moisture causing
WRINKLES or big long strips of bubbles where the top coat buckles due
to a void beneath.. It looks ugly but if it's small and inside the
hull it's seldom a real problem. Some of them open will crack and open
and those I fix...The ones that do not open up I don't bother with if
they are small and inside the hull. When the boat is fabric coated on
the exterior I have never had the hull wrinkle. If not coated with
fabric and the wood does wrinkly you can fix the wrinkle easy. Cut it
out and glue in a strip or fill and epoxy and glass over.... .

After a while you will have found all the weak spots and repaired
them. In fact as my boats age they look better due to making repairs
and adding more paint..In fact they are better..

I wet sanded ( latex must be wet sanded ) and painted my old Skiff
this year. She looks new is solid and better than the day she was
born..I scarphed the mast making it longer and went from a Sprit sail
to a Leg Of mutton..

All my boats are dry stored.. In fact during winter I cover them with
blankets inside the shed so moisture don't form on them as Frost..
Frost can form on things rain and snow can't reach..

Taking care of a boat is the life of a boat.. Wooden boats can last
for a life time. I expect to die and leave some nice boats behind..
Old but nice..

If my grandsons take care of them these boats will be alive when they
die and none of them are made out of expensive wood. ONLY 1 has Marine
Grade Plywood. That MG ply checked like crazy until I put fabric on
it.. Good luck, Chief...

On 11/14/13, Christopher C. Wetherill <wetherillc@...> wrote:
> There are also the questions of what species the non-display plies come
> from and what glue was used. Most paneling consists of a finish veneer
> laid over a cheap core and a non-finish back skin with interior grade
> glue. I would not want to bet my life on paneling.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
>
> On 11/14/2013 11:59 AM, Roger Padvorac wrote:
>> ?
>>
>> A critical issue is checking if the wood plies are heartwood or
>> sapwood. This could vary from sheet to sheet, so people's experience
>> with it could vary.
>> While the heartwood of the western red cedar is more resistant to rot
>> than the heartwood of Douglass fir, the sapwood of western red cedar
>> rots faster than the heartwood of Douglass fir.
>> Confusing this situation is that while the western red cedar is in the
>> cypress family, in the genus Thuja, and cedars are in the pine family
>> in the genus Cedrus.
>> It seems possible that the difference in rot resistance between
>> sapwood and heartwood is a common issue, and with the general lowering
>> of standards, that there could be more sapwood in plywood than there
>> used to be. As a general rule of thumb, the sapwood is lighter in
>> color than the heartwood.
>> It seems likely the sapwood of western red cedar is so vulnerable to
>> rot in part because it is so soft. While its hardwood of western red
>> cedar is also comparatively soft, it is also saturated with very toxic
>> chemicals (unlike the sapwood), and so is very resistant to rot. These
>> issues might affect other Thuja and Cedrus species.
>> May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight,
>> balance, cooperating, and warm laughter,
>> Roger
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:*chadnn@...<mailto:chadnn@...>
>> *To:*bolger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:53 AM
>> *Subject:* [bolger] cedar paneling
>>
>> Has anyone use 8mm x 48" x 96" cedar paneling (see Home Depot) to
>> build a boat ?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> _,_.___
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
There are also the questions of what species the non-display plies come fromand what glue was used.  Most paneling consists of a finish veneer laid over a cheap core and a non-finish back skin with interior grade glue.  I would not want to bet my life on paneling.

V/R
Chris


On 11/14/2013 11:59 AM, Roger Padvorac wrote:

A critical issue is checking if the wood plies are heartwood or sapwood. This could vary from sheet to sheet, so people's experience with it could vary.
 
While the heartwood of the western red cedar is more resistant to rot than the heartwood of Douglass fir, the sapwood of western red cedar rots faster than the heartwood of Douglass fir.
 
Confusing this situation is that while the western red cedar is in the cypress family, in the genus Thuja, and cedars are in the pine family in the genus Cedrus.
 
It seems possible that the difference in rot resistance between sapwood and heartwood is a common issue, and with the general lowering of standards, that there could be more sapwood in plywood than there used to be. As a general rule of thumb, the sapwood is lighter in color than the heartwood.
 
It seems likely the sapwood of western red cedar is so vulnerable to rot in part because it is so soft. While its hardwood of western red cedar is also comparatively soft, it is also saturated with very toxic chemicals (unlike the sapwood), and so is very resistant to rot. These issues might affect other Thuja and Cedrus species.
 
May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight, balance, cooperating, and warm laughter,
Roger
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:53 AM
Subject:[bolger] cedar paneling

Has anyone use 8mm x 48" x 96"  cedar paneling (see Home Depot) to build a boat ?

Thanks

_,_.___

A critical issue is checking if the wood plies are heartwood or sapwood. This could vary from sheet to sheet, so people's experience with it could vary.
 
While the heartwood of the western red cedar is more resistant to rot than the heartwood of Douglass fir, the sapwood of western red cedar rots faster than the heartwood of Douglass fir.
 
Confusing this situation is that while the western red cedar is in the cypress family, in the genus Thuja, and cedars are in the pine family in the genus Cedrus.
 
It seems possible that the difference in rot resistance between sapwood and heartwood is a common issue, and with the general lowering of standards, that there could be more sapwood in plywood than there used to be. As a general rule of thumb, the sapwood is lighter in color than the heartwood.
 
It seems likely the sapwood of western red cedar is so vulnerable to rot in part because it is so soft. While its hardwood of western red cedar is also comparatively soft, it is also saturated with very toxic chemicals (unlike the sapwood), and so is very resistant to rot. These issues might affect other Thuja and Cedrus species.
 
May your day be filled with clarity, grace, strength, insight, balance, cooperating, and warm laughter,
Roger
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:53 AM
Subject:[bolger] cedar paneling

Has anyone use 8mm x 48" x 96"  cedar paneling (see Home Depot) to build a boat ?

Thanks

_,_.___
Has anyone use 8mm x 48" x 96"  cedar paneling (see Home Depot) to build a boat ?


Thanks