Re: 50% heavier.. WAS.. [bolger] Re: Options for ply thickness for similar sharpie construction on simila

"1/3rd of 1/4 is 1/12th of an inch, so 1/3rd thicker would be 1/12 plus 3/12 (another way to say 1/4) = 4/12 or 1/3rd of an inch. Oddly enough this means 1/3 of an inch is 1/3 thicker than 1/4 of an inch... "

And a quarter inch is 1/4 thinner than a third of an inch.

Truth. You can feel it with your fingers - sense data - see it empirically - perception. A reliable personal experience, or something else?

Propositions of math have meaning - but mathematical truths are empty tautologies - or so once said the last great empiricist to date, A J Ayer "..Mathematics is analytic. 2 + 2 = 4 tells you nothing fresh about the world, or about anything other than itself. It is just a convenient way of telling you that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 ..Logic similarly is an empty verbal phenomenon." ..Ayer gave up on verification theory, while others not of the empiricist bent, such as Wittgenstein, and Popper said it's not really a personal thing, knowledge that is - like we're all in a boat we construct together. Foucault said the powerful build that boat, which should be deconstructed to see the plan, bom, and a better way to build.

I will NOT add another thing to this discussion except to say that the teacher that taught y'all fractions has gone back and changed all of your grades to Fs.  :)

On 12/27/13, tom sorensen <tdsoren@...> wrote:
> This one has been fun to watch.
>
> Reminds me of whenever I have to explain that a 50% markup gives you a 33%
> gross margin to folks in the office.
>
> Tom
>
> On Dec 26, 2013, at 9:14 PM, Chief Redelk <chiefredelk@...> wrote:
>
>> Right you are.. That is my way of seeing this. 3/8 is 1/8the more than
>> the original 2/8 boat. So in my mind the boat would weigh 1/3 more.
>> Not a lot if you trailer. BUT I did understand the other post too.
>>
>> Both were correct. One was put differently BUT for me the old country
>> boat builder I will just go with the boat being 1/3 more and be done..
>>
>> BUT rest assured John was correct about the 50 percent comment..But to
>> keep it simple I think the way you put it is just simple and easy for
>> the masses..
>>
>> I am a "Math Nut". So I liked all of the info.. When I was in
>> electronics we carried our math out to 12 places. Lots of little
>> "Zero's" but very important for electronics..
>>
>> However I like simple now that I am lazy so I don't bother with the
>> small details as long as I can get a good estimate..
>>
>> For example we know a cubic foot of "Fresh water" should weight bout
>> 62.4 lbs or something near that. Since I like to be on the safe side I
>> just figure it at a flat 62 lbs and go ahead.
>>
>> Nothing bad is going to happen if I am a bit off except my draft line
>> may be a little off. The boat will work fine..
>>
>> However my scientific background does admire men who will do the hard
>> math and give us details..It's just not me anymore. smile...
>>
>> Math has it's own type of Poetry and it's really beautiful. Smile BUT
>> I may see life a little different than the everyday guy. Smile..
>>
>> We all know the old KISS formula for happiness means keep it simple
>> stupid..Well that was how I was taught and it's working for me...
>> smile.
>>
>> That means I am not afraid to use 3/8 plywood on my next 12 foot boat...
>>
>> Another formula learned from the red necks is WGAS ? ( who gives a *)
>> about details as long as the boat floats good, sails well and can be
>> carried on a trailer..Smile..
>>
>> Many of my ancestors build good boats and most of them could not count
>> past the number of toes and fingers they had. A few had parts of
>> fingers missing so guess they could do fractions. Smile..
>>
>> Coming up in La. I saw boats made out of 12 inch wide boards,
>> houseboats sitting on top of logs and boats made out of most anything
>> that floated. Compared to those my boats mine look great. Smile..
>>
>> Good day.. ..Chief..
>>
>> On 12/26/13,sirdarnell@...<sirdarnell@...> wrote:
>> > 1/4 to 3/8, when you are working with fractions you first need to make
>> > your
>> > bases (the number on the bottom) the same, so instead of 1/4 you'd use
>> > 2/8ths, which is the same thing but now both numbers have the same base
>> > and
>> > you can do all you your math using just the top numbers. Now, we are
>> > making
>> > 2/8 thick boat a 3/8 thick boat. If our 2/8 (1/4) boat weights 60 lbs.
>> > then
>> > (1/8) weights 30 lbs and 3/8 would weight 3 times the 1/8 weight or 90
>> > lbs.
>> > It is all easier once you have a common base.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

On 27/12/2013, at 4:14 PM, Chief Redelk <chiefredelk@...> wrote:

> Right you are.. That is my way of seeing this. 3/8 is 1/8the more than
> the original 2/8 boat. So in my mind the boat would weigh 1/3 more.
> Not a lot if you trailer. BUT I did understand the other post too.
>
> Both were correct. One was put differently BUT for me the old country
> boat builder I will just go with the boat being 1/3 more and be done..
>
> BUT rest assured John was correct about the 50 percent comment..But to
> keep it simple I think the way you put it is just simple and easy for
> the masses..
>
> I am a "Math Nut". So I liked all of the info.. When I was in
> electronics we carried our math out to 12 places. Lots of little
> "Zero's" but very important for electronics..
>
> However I like simple now that I am lazy so I don't bother with the
> small details as long as I can get a good estimate..
>
> For example we know a cubic foot of "Fresh water" should weight bout
> 62.4 lbs or something near that. Since I like to be on the safe side I
> just figure it at a flat 62 lbs and go ahead.
>
> Nothing bad is going to happen if I am a bit off except my draft line
> may be a little off. The boat will work fine..
>
> However my scientific background does admire men who will do the hard
> math and give us details..It's just not me anymore. smile...
>
> Math has it's own type of Poetry and it's really beautiful. Smile BUT
> I may see life a little different than the everyday guy. Smile..
>
> We all know the old KISS formula for happiness means keep it simple
> stupid..Well that was how I was taught and it's working for me...
> smile.
>
> That means I am not afraid to use 3/8 plywood on my next 12 foot boat...
>
> Another formula learned from the red necks is WGAS ? ( who gives a *)
> about details as long as the boat floats good, sails well and can be
> carried on a trailer..Smile..
>
> Many of my ancestors build good boats and most of them could not count
> past the number of toes and fingers they had. A few had parts of
> fingers missing so guess they could do fractions. Smile..
>
> Coming up in La. I saw boats made out of 12 inch wide boards,
> houseboats sitting on top of logs and boats made out of most anything
> that floated. Compared to those my boats mine look great. Smile..
>
> Good day.. ..Chief..
>
> On 12/26/13,sirdarnell@...<sirdarnell@...> wrote:
>> 1/4 to 3/8, when you are working with fractions you first need to make your
>> bases (the number on the bottom) the same, so instead of 1/4 you'd use
>> 2/8ths, which is the same thing but now both numbers have the same base and
>> you can do all you your math using just the top numbers. Now, we are making
>> 2/8 thick boat a 3/8 thick boat. If our 2/8 (1/4) boat weights 60 lbs. then
>> (1/8) weights 30 lbs and 3/8 would weight 3 times the 1/8 weight or 90 lbs.
>> It is all easier once you have a common base.
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
>
>

On 12/26/13,sirdarnell@...<sirdarnell@...> wrote:
> 1/4 to 3/8, when you are working with fractions you first need to make your
> bases (the number on the bottom) the same, so instead of 1/4 you'd use
> 2/8ths, which is the same thing but now both numbers have the same base and
> you can do all you your math using just the top numbers. Now, we are making
> 2/8 thick boat a 3/8 thick boat. If our 2/8 (1/4) boat weights 60 lbs. then
> (1/8) weights 30 lbs and 3/8 would weight 3 times the 1/8 weight or 90 lbs.
> It is all easier once you have a common base.
>
>

1/4 to 3/8, when you are working with fractions you first need to make your bases (the number on the bottom) the same, so  instead of 1/4 you'd use 2/8ths, which is the same thing but now both numbers have the same base and you can do all you your math using just the top numbers.  Now, we are making 2/8 thick boat a 3/8 thick boat.  If our 2/8 (1/4) boat weights 60 lbs. then (1/8) weights 30 lbs and 3/8 would weight 3 times the 1/8 weight or 90 lbs.  It is all easier once you have a common base.

> On Dec 24, 2013, at 18:19, John Weiss <jrweiss98020@...> wrote:
>
> 3/8 is 50% more than 1/4:
>
> 150% = 150/100 = 3/2
>
> 1/4 x 3/2 = 3/8
>
>> On 12/24/2013 11:05, Chief Redelk wrote:
>> Quote..<If you assume that ¼” and 3/8’” plywood have equal densities,
>> 3/8” weighs 50% more than ¼”. If you assume a straight substitution of
>> 3/8” for ¼” (with no change in framing), then a hull made if 3/8” will
>> weigh 50% more than an identical hull made of ¼”.>
>>
>> John, not doubting you but my thinking went like this..
>>
>> If a boat would weigh 60 lbs in 1/4 ply it seems 3/8 ply would be
>> adding only 1/3 more wood..it should weigh 1/3 more..For example a 90
>> lbs boat normally made out of 1/4 built with 3/8 ply should have 30
>> lbs more wood added so it seems it would weight 120 lbs built using
>> 3/8 ply...
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

On 12/24/2013 11:05, Chief Redelk wrote:
> Quote..<If you assume that ¼” and 3/8’” plywood have equal densities,
> 3/8” weighs 50% more than ¼”. If you assume a straight substitution of
> 3/8” for ¼” (with no change in framing), then a hull made if 3/8” will
> weigh 50% more than an identical hull made of ¼”.>
>
> John, not doubting you but my thinking went like this..
>
> If a boat would weigh 60 lbs in 1/4 ply it seems 3/8 ply would be
> adding only 1/3 more wood..it should weigh 1/3 more..For example a 90
> lbs boat normally made out of 1/4 built with 3/8 ply should have 30
> lbs more wood added so it seems it would weight 120 lbs built using
> 3/8 ply...

On 12/24/13, John Trussell <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
> If you assume that ¼” and 3/8’” plywood have equal densities, 3/8” weighs
> 50% more than ¼”. If you assume a straight substitution of 3/8” for ¼”
> (with
> no change in framing), then a hull made if 3/8” will weigh 50% more than
an
> identical hull made of ¼”.
>
>
>
> There are a variety of ways to address boat weight, strength, and
> stiffness.
> Decks which are not intended to support people (such as those on kayaks)
> can
> be very thin (and some of these are made of fabric). However, very thin
> bottoms don’t work very well due to flexibility and lack of durability.
The
> trick is to use thicker stuff where you need it and thinner stuff
> elsewhere.
>
>
>
>
> Another approach is to support relatively thin skins with closely spaced
> framing. Some examples, such as skin on frame boats are obvious. Others,
> such as the stringers on cold molded boats, the laps on lapstrake boats,
or
> even the fillets on stitch and glue boats are somewhat less obvious.
> Another
> possibility is to box in the space between longitudinal thwarts and the
> bottom of the boat, creating box girders for torsional stiffness and for
> adding a longitudinal frame on the bottom.
>
>
>
> Finally, it is possible to add strength and stiffness to a hull by adding
a
> layer of fiberglass on the outside of the boat. Many strip build boats add
> a
> layer of fiberglass on the inside and outside of the boat creating a wood
> cored fiberglass boat. This can create a very light, strong, and stiff
> boat.
>
>
>
>
> All boats are compromises and one of the areas of compromise is
scantlings.
> Many stitch and glue boats were designed on the premise that they would be
> built out of readily available, construction grade material and ¼” works
> pretty well for most small boats. But without constraints dictated by the
> need to market boat plans, it is likely that many small boats would have
> heavier bottoms and thinner sides.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Chief Redelk
> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 5:40 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Options for ply thickness for similar sharpie
> construction on simila
>
>
>
>
>
> I made that discovery on small boats too..
>
> I am of the opinion that 3/8 plywood is MUCH stiffer than 1/4,
> stronger and not a lot heavier..
>
> I find a full 3/8 plywood deck well supported works well..When I
> design a deck that will be walked on I think of picture frames or 4
> sides boxes 12 inches wide by 12 inches long by 3 inches deep..Bracing
> like that well supported then covered with 3/8 ply is very strong..I
> think that a brace every 12 inches is my standard.. Ribs once were set
> that close but on some boats I open them up to 16 inches.. However,
> Stitch and glue boats don't fit that rule..
>
> My next boat will have a 3/8 plywood bottom, 3/8 decks and maybe 3/8
> all over.. BUT since it's gonna be a 12 feet long scow maybe I will
> make the sides out of 1/4 ext ply...BUT the fact is I am not sure the
> weight difference is worth all the trouble of using two thicknesses of
> plywood..
>
> In my mind there are TWO boat options when it comes to materials.. ONE
> for boats on trailers and the other ONE for boats designed to be
> LIGHT.. Since I trailer all my boats, just a tad Heavier is not a
> problem..
>
> I am not talking excessively Heavy boats or over built boats.. just
> boats using 3/8 versus 1/4 plywood..1 inch by 1 inch bracing is good
> IF it's not hanging in the air..Well braced boats need to be
> overweight.. Good day, Chief..
>
> On 12/23/13, MylesJ. Swift <mswift@...> wrote:
>> I ended up doubling the ¼ inch bottom and main deck on my Micro. With
>> four
>> 200pounds plus guys dancing on the deck it flexed too much for my
>> comfort.
>>
>>
>>
>> MylesJ
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


------------------------------------

Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo
Groups Links

On 12/24/13, John Trussell <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
> If you assume that ¼” and 3/8’” plywood have equal densities, 3/8” weighs
> 50% more than ¼”. If you assume a straight substitution of 3/8” for ¼”
> (with
> no change in framing), then a hull made if 3/8” will weigh 50% more than an
> identical hull made of ¼”.
>
>
>
> There are a variety of ways to address boat weight, strength, and
> stiffness.
> Decks which are not intended to support people (such as those on kayaks)
> can
> be very thin (and some of these are made of fabric). However, very thin
> bottoms don’t work very well due to flexibility and lack of durability. The
> trick is to use thicker stuff where you need it and thinner stuff
> elsewhere.
>
>
>
>
> Another approach is to support relatively thin skins with closely spaced
> framing. Some examples, such as skin on frame boats are obvious. Others,
> such as the stringers on cold molded boats, the laps on lapstrake boats, or
> even the fillets on stitch and glue boats are somewhat less obvious.
> Another
> possibility is to box in the space between longitudinal thwarts and the
> bottom of the boat, creating box girders for torsional stiffness and for
> adding a longitudinal frame on the bottom.
>
>
>
> Finally, it is possible to add strength and stiffness to a hull by adding a
> layer of fiberglass on the outside of the boat. Many strip build boats add
> a
> layer of fiberglass on the inside and outside of the boat creating a wood
> cored fiberglass boat. This can create a very light, strong, and stiff
> boat.
>
>
>
>
> All boats are compromises and one of the areas of compromise is scantlings.
> Many stitch and glue boats were designed on the premise that they would be
> built out of readily available, construction grade material and ¼” works
> pretty well for most small boats. But without constraints dictated by the
> need to market boat plans, it is likely that many small boats would have
> heavier bottoms and thinner sides.
>
>
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Chief Redelk
> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 5:40 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Options for ply thickness for similar sharpie
> construction on simila
>
>
>
>
>
> I made that discovery on small boats too..
>
> I am of the opinion that 3/8 plywood is MUCH stiffer than 1/4,
> stronger and not a lot heavier..
>
> I find a full 3/8 plywood deck well supported works well..When I
> design a deck that will be walked on I think of picture frames or 4
> sides boxes 12 inches wide by 12 inches long by 3 inches deep..Bracing
> like that well supported then covered with 3/8 ply is very strong..I
> think that a brace every 12 inches is my standard.. Ribs once were set
> that close but on some boats I open them up to 16 inches.. However,
> Stitch and glue boats don't fit that rule..
>
> My next boat will have a 3/8 plywood bottom, 3/8 decks and maybe 3/8
> all over.. BUT since it's gonna be a 12 feet long scow maybe I will
> make the sides out of 1/4 ext ply...BUT the fact is I am not sure the
> weight difference is worth all the trouble of using two thicknesses of
> plywood..
>
> In my mind there are TWO boat options when it comes to materials.. ONE
> for boats on trailers and the other ONE for boats designed to be
> LIGHT.. Since I trailer all my boats, just a tad Heavier is not a
> problem..
>
> I am not talking excessively Heavy boats or over built boats.. just
> boats using 3/8 versus 1/4 plywood..1 inch by 1 inch bracing is good
> IF it's not hanging in the air..Well braced boats need to be
> overweight.. Good day, Chief..
>
> On 12/23/13, MylesJ. Swift <mswift@...> wrote:
>> I ended up doubling the ¼ inch bottom and main deck on my Micro. With
>> four
>> 200pounds plus guys dancing on the deck it flexed too much for my
>> comfort.
>>
>>
>>
>> MylesJ
>>
>>
>
>
>
>