Re: Dipping lug as a cruising rig

For Alaskan One-man Trawler I wrote 1 ton ballast. Strike that. Insert 1/2 ton inside ballast.


cheers


Mathew see:


MAIB V09  N16  Alaskan One-man Trawler  1/1/1990 DESIGN #446


On Page 42 of the old Common Sense Complex Boats catalogue of Bolger Designs ('complex' term was used to differentiate from 'instant' and as such covers a rather wide range) may be found as a not particularly complex looking design, a bit of cold molding involved, that may be ideal for your purpose. The design there was called: ONE-MAN-TRAWLER


1 or 2 person liveaboard; trailerable; comfortable, handy; withstood adverse conditions; 4 blueprints with full lines, offsets, interior, etc. 25'6"x7'9"x2'3", Disp9000lbs, cold molded bow and bilges. Small Diesel 28-38hp plus Dipping Lugsail. Sail for breakdown use and outside passages. 1 ton fish box will fit motorcycle or whatever, and 1 ton ballast (sand rock?) left at water edge before highway trailering. Designed and built for Bay of Alaska. Trailered seasonally Montana to Puget Sound then run up the inland passage to Alaska. Check it out - lovely dipping lug - ask Susanne.

I was looking at your Summer Hen in Photos again Mr Trane, and the hull strikes me as being similar to some of the luggers from along the coast of Brittany - Normandy, perhaps Eqihen?


An oldie but goldie Dip 'n' diesel cruzer.

Roger Barnes'book'n'boat

More Vivier in ClassicBoat 

ha

"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it
is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of
mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible" - Bertrand Russell


http://www.mbla.co.uk/guide-me.htm

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=acUTAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/vivier-encore-2-roger-barnes-appraises-the-ilur-design/

http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/vivier-encore-1-three-more-vivier-designs/

http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/vivier-encore-3-francois-replies-to-john-perrymans-comments/



"Most recent excellent article on Junk Rigs is by Annie Hill in this month's "Good Old Boat" ( Mar/Apr 2014, on your news-stand right now, if you can find it!)"


Not findable, but bloggedhere.


"Wouldst thou,"—so the helmsman answered,

"Learn the secret of the sea?"

"Only those who brave its dangers

"Comprehend its mystery!"

— Longfellow, The Secret of the Sea



---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <wgilham@...> wrote :

Phil also designed a few cruisers with his modifications of a "Chinese Junk" rig -- of this, there ARE several proponents.

Most recent excellent article on Junk Rigs is by Annie Hill in this month's "Good Old Boat"

François Vivieroffers dipping lug rigalternatives for many of his designs.Roger Barnes, President of the Dinghy Cruising Association, sails anIluras designed byVivier. It isriggedwith a traditional Brittany style of no-dip dipping lugsail where the sail is tacked ahead of the mast, but not by much, the luff is perpendicular rather than sloping aft, and the yard also has little slope if any, it being more or less horizontal.


fair winds


Dipping Lugsail Downwind...

"The only time the rig gave us a fright was once when we tried to get more power running before the wind by taking the tack off the stemhead and guying it out to one side like a squaresail..." - PCB, Little Superior, FS, Chap 19, p111




http://www.vivierboats.com/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DoryBoat/conversations/topics/498

http://www.rogerbarnes.org.uk/rogerbarnes.org.uk/Welcome.html

http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_sail_and_oar.html

http://duckworksbbs.com/plans/vivier/index.htm

http://tinyurl.com/q2lv4y7





Thanks, Paul, and I'm sure your right.  More than likely if I build Twilight or Little Bear I will just make a few minor personalizations but leave the rig as is.  Still, it's fun to think about, "What if...?"  ;-)

About forty years ago I had a sail on an Atkins sharpie like Twilight.  It had originally been a sloop about the length of Twilight but after sailing it for a few years, the owner had added three feet to the stern, a mizzen mast to make her a ketch and a wheel helm.  We were sailing out of Rowayton, on the Five Mile River, home of John Atkin, if I recall correctly.   Admittedly, it was a mild day on Long Island Sound, but as soon as we were confidently on course, we both went below and let the ship look after herself.  Delightful. 

I'd be awfully careful about different rigs on a centre board boat.  Balance can be critical.  Long keels are much more forgiving.

The video shows the system used by present-day Beer Luggers in the UK. The
tack stays put. There are two sheets. The "lazy" sheet leads forward
around the luff of the sail. To tack you release the working sheet and
pull like the dickens on the lazy sheet, which sort of turns the sail
inside out in front of the mast, and then becomes the new working sheet.
You need a fairly high-peaked yard and a loose parrel for it to work.

On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:42:32 -0800, Kent wrote:

> I've seen this video, and I'm also unsure exactly what's going on. But
> I think it should be possible to dip the sail by pulling on lines from
> the cockpit, if the rig isn't huge. For instance, you could rig two
> lines to the forward end of the yard, like jib sheets. By pulling on
> these, you should be able to move the yard back and across across from
> one side of the mast to the other.
> ...
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs

--
John (jkohnen@...)
Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you get a lot of
scum on the top. (Edward Abbey)
I was actually asking with just that type of use in mind, a weekend cruiser/occasional liveaboard but very much a motorsailer with an inboard diesel engine which would only use the sails when conditions are right and the stars are aligned.  The specific application I had in mind--not Bolger but for those who are intereste--are the Atkin flat-bottom sloopsTwilightorLittle Bear.  I have ordered plans for both from Pat Atkin.  In the end, I would probably be better off building either as designed, but I blame PCB for the urge to tinker and simplify.  Cheers, Matthew

---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <dir_cobb@...> wrote :
I believe Phil only ever promoted the dipping lug as a rig for long distance cruising and/or "for vessels with no inhibitions about using their engines."
I built one of my 17' Florida Bay Hens with a lug rig - a version of the Mud Hen. I liked it for what it is. (I don't have any photos handy, but will post if I find one.)

I liked Bolger's sprit rigs - I built a Black Skimmer and cruised south Florida, the Keys and a trip to the Bahamas. I have also used the wishbone rig on my Marsh Hen. I find the wishbone to be superior to both the sprit and the lug for sailing performance.

If I were looking for a long-distance rig, I would seriously consider unstayed masts (2), each with a wishbone. You cannot beat this rig for easy sail handling (tacking and gybing) and for downwind sailing.
I've seen this video, and I'm also unsure exactly what's going on. But
I think it should be possible to dip the sail by pulling on lines from
the cockpit, if the rig isn't huge. For instance, you could rig two
lines to the forward end of the yard, like jib sheets. By pulling on
these, you should be able to move the yard back and across across from
one side of the mast to the other.

If the sail's tack is held by a downhaul near the mast, standing
lug-style, it can be left in place; but dipping lugs usually tack the
sail somewhere further outboard. In that case, you'll need another
two-lines arrangement to move it. That may be difficult to rig because
of friction or fouling problems around the mast. It all seems possible,
although with all these extra lines, the rig is losing the simplicity
that made it so attractive in the first place. And I wonder if it will
work for jibing, or might the wind be strong enough to hold the sail
forward?

-- Kent




On 2/28/2014 5:24 PM,jerrywolczanski@...wrote:
>
>
> I have to do a fair bit of tacking (usually) to get out into open water,
> but the dipping lug has some appeal, such as a lot of power down low.
> As for tacking, I've watched this video about 100 times - not sure I've
> fully digested exactly what is happening.
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs
>
> Jerry
> Montgomery 23 cutter
> out of Kinsale VA
>
>
>
I believe Phil only ever promoted the dipping lug as a rig for long distance cruising and/or "for vessels with no inhibitions about using their engines". I have seriously considered the rig both on Seabird 86 and on the Fast Motorsailer. Realistically I think it has a lot going for it. It is not the rig for someone who wants to go day sailing on a small lake or navigating an intricate course among islands. However if you are planning on setting a course and sailing it for days on end following trade winds (as one would if one did) it probably makes a lot more sense than more complicated rigs. As one reads up on the above craft as well as Ataraxia, one gets a feel for the sort of sailing we are talking about. This is the sort of rig which will not be dismasted by the loss of a stay or failure of a stay terminal. If you did lose a mast you could jury rig one if at all close to anywhere. Sails are equally possible to improvise. I am seriously tempted to try it in a 23' size just because nobody has (recently). Edgar March's book is full of pictures of working boats of all sizes thus rigged in the UK and elsewhere so it definitely did work fine before engines came on the scene and killed working sail while handicapping killed all but Marconi rigs in the yachting scene. David.
As a cruising rig there is a lot to be said for the balanced standing lug. Nigel Oren's has actually designed several boats using the rig. It has a lot of virtues: a lot of drive without a lot of heeling moment, minimal standing rigging, and depending on sheeting arrangements minimal string pulling. You will sacrifice some windward ability compared to a tuned Marconi rig but if you have a motor no big. It is a fast rig across or off the wind with as good or better handling than a Marconi with less heeling. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 28, 2014, at 6:25 PM, "jerrywolczanski@..." <jerrywolczanski@...> wrote:

 

I have to do a fair bit of tacking (usually) to get out into open water, but the dipping lug has some appeal, such as a lot of power down low.  As for tacking, I've watched this video about 100 times - not sure I've fully digested exactly what is happening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs

Jerry
Montgomery 23 cutter
out of Kinsale VA

I have to do a fair bit of tacking (usually) to get out into open water, but the dipping lug has some appeal, such as a lot of power down low.  As for tacking, I've watched this video about 100 times - not sure I've fully digested exactly what is happening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Gp71JdmPs

Jerry
Montgomery 23 cutter
out of Kinsale VA

Phil also designed a few cruisers with his modifications of a "Chinese Junk" rig -- of this, there ARE several proponents.

 

Most recent excellent article on Junk Rigs is by Annie Hill in this month's "Good Old Boat" ( Mar/Apr 2014, on your news-stand right now, if you can find it!) about "Building a Junk Rig" to outfit an older 26' flush-deck fiberglass sloop -- Annie has sailed the world on her previous Jay Benford-designed 34' plywood junk-rigged dory "Badger", and has written TWO great books about the many-year adventure: "Voyaging on a Small Income", and "Brazil & Beyond" -- the first inspired me enough to also join the ranks of long-distance cruisers (for a year, anyway - till eldercare kicked in...) though we did not choose to do it as modestly/cheaply as Annie did.  Her books and current article are FULL of details on why such alternative rigs are really worth considering over the all-too-prevalent marconi rigs...

 

Wayne Gilham

FlowDesign Marine Surveys

Tacoma WA

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Ofowlnmole@...
Sent:Friday, February 28, 2014 1:27 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Dipping lug as a cruising rig

 

 

All, a random question...  Other than Phil and Susanne, are there any other modern proponents of the dipping lug as a cruising or motorsailing rig?  Cheers, Matthew

as has been stated, i don't know if i'd want to deal with an actual dipping lug in a blow. i think a balanced lug or standing lug would be great for cruising, especially in a yawl set up, though.
I think more use a balanced lug than a dipping lug. I think even Phil Bolger to the balanced lug a lot more than a dipping lug.
I sure would not want the have to go forward in bad weather on a cruising boat swing the yard to the lee side on every tack.

If it was me, I'd rather go with a balanced lug or even a junk rig for a real low-stress combination.
Mike Allison   (North of Kansas City Mo,  USA)

E-Mail:mysloop@...
On 2/28/2014 4:52 AM, Dan Burrill wrote:

I'm not sure about the dipping lug specifically, but I know Nigel Irens has designed at least one open cruising boat with a schooner rig and standing lugsails. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the deisgn, but it was intended for use by parties of teenage schoolchildren. I raced against one a few years ago when I crewed on a friend's boat in the Three Rivers Race. As I recall she did ok, although that may have been due to a somewhat generous handicap. Then again, just finishing the course of the Three Rivers in under 24 hours is a decent achievement.

Regards,

Dan Burrill

I'm not sure about the dipping lug specifically, but I know Nigel Irens has designed at least one open cruising boat with a schooner rig and standing lugsails. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the deisgn, but it was intended for use by parties of teenage schoolchildren. I raced against one a few years ago when I crewed on a friend's boat in the Three Rivers Race. As I recall she did ok, although that may have been due to a somewhat generous handicap. Then again, just finishing the course of the Three Rivers in under 24 hours is a decent achievement.

Regards,

Dan Burrill

On 28/02/2014 09:26,owlnmole@...wrote:

All, a random question...  Other than Phil and Susanne, are there any other modern proponents of the dipping lug as a cruising or motorsailing rig?  Cheers, Matthew


All, a random question...  Other than Phil and Susanne, are there any other modern proponents of the dipping lug as a cruising or motorsailing rig?  Cheers, Matthew