Re: Sail Track/Luff Track




---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <polysail@...> wrote :

Lashing is the traditional way to attach a sail to a mast, and at least one of those techniques attributed to Bolger and found in Payson's book will beat any other attachment technique for dousing a sail. It's the method shown on the left in this Irwin Schuster diagram. Our contribution to that design was to fasten the lines together forward of the mast with simple cable zip ties. We found early on that heavier zip ties also make quick and easy mast hoops as an alternative means of attachment when adjusted loosely, so we always include them with our sails and kits for people who want to get on the water quickly.

Dave Gray
PolySail International

Schuster doesn't show how Chappelle had noted the garvey working boatmen, most keen on spritsails, attached their spritsails to the mast for best non-binding effect: thimbles at 90 degrees (example below). Chapelle's work is full of little details, a word here, a phrase there, a line drawn thus, that occasionally jump out of a page they'd never been seen on before by this reader! I wonder at times, like, for example, with the jamming issues arising from the old style vertical reef line roving of the initial Birdwatcher sail. I wonder how or why PCB, with his keen eye and sharp intellect could get the implication in Chapelle's drawing wrong. Then again, PCB's work is alive like that too, and often many appear to get it wrong or miss his point entirely...

InAmerican Small Sailing Craft, H I Chapelle notes that:

" The sail and rig used in the small garveys show that the Jersey-men understood the sprit sail very well indeed... (p 56)

...The spritsail was commonly laced to the mast; this was the usual spiral lacing, which passed through small metal rings or thimbles seized square to the luff-roping at each grommet in the sail. The eye of the rings or thimbles was thus up-and-down, and this is said to have prevented the lacing from jamming in hoisting or lowering the sail... (p 57)"


---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <thedumbox@...> wrote :

The objection to the spritsail is that it is difficult to reef, but track would allow one to place a snotter arrangement on the face of the mast where it would not interfere with lacings or robands. One could put another reefing snotter attachment on the face of the mast so that moving the sprit when reefing would be a much easier, or quicker, operation. Hence the purpose of my inquiry.


If the sail luff is made sufficiently strong (reinforcing patches, luff rope, etc) in the area of attachment, then the snotter can led from right there from, say, a grommet on the sail luff. Then as the sail is lowered to reef the snotter is also automatically lowered with it. It's a levitating! snotter - no interference - only a slight additional bending moment applied to the mast. Simple. Still just the one halyard... or none.


Or. Use a stanliff - a separate halyard to take the load. The snotter loops around the mast in one of the usual old ways, and it is not fixed to a point on the mast. The stanliff/halyard is used to raise or lower, levitate!, the snotter. The snotter may be, in the old way, a fixed length - compressive force being applied to peak the sprit via hauling on the stanliff/halyard. Or, using blocks etc., the snotter also may be adjustable. Thefall(s) may be led to anywhere convenient. Chappelle noted the old ways, and whys, and showed how.








---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <wgilham@...> wrote :



My OTHER rig for same whaleboat was a much taller mast flying a triangular sail, one sprit as boom.  (Built this because the quad sail would roll side-by-side terribly downwind especially when upper sprit got to the "wrong" side of the wind - once actually rolled the boat totally turtle!)

 
A bit of string, a vang, led aft from the quad sail peak controls twist well. Easily stops that downwind oscillation setting in and can be played with to good effect when on the wind too.





I tried the reef from the 4 side sail to a 3 side sail. Reefed that way pointing was sloppy. Yes I almost turned turtle downwind with the 4 sides sail also. The boat began to roll but by pointing windward I came about into the wind while the rail was under water. I was hiked out and made the turn so fast the boat took on water then hove to in the eye of the wind. I bailed the boat out and set sail downwind once more. Immediately I got into the same situation and again the rail was under water. Bailed her again and held a meeting with myself. The wind was overpowering the sail. My boat had been blown into a narrow channel. The only way out was downwind. This time I was able to sail out. There was no one there to rescue me. I realized the danger so when I made it ashore I went home a wiser man. The problem had been the rig had not allowed the sail to go past 90degrees. The sail hanging over one side can roll the boat if the wind is strong enough. I like a freestanding mast and a long enough sheet line the sail can become a flag in front of the mast downwind If need be. In fact sailing downwind I may allow my sail ahead of the mast and play it back and forth keeping my boat upright. Good luck Chief

On Aug 22, 2015 1:21 PM, "Wayne Gilhamwgilham@...[bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

So your sprit sail is quadrilateral not triangular... i have a quad-sail rig with two spritbooms, one to head (as per video) and also one to clew... had the sail cut so that when "scandalized" (dropping head and its sprit), the head came exactly down to the tack, leaving a leg'o'mutton double-thickness sail flying...A rather drastic percentage reef (half!) but very neat. Takes some "playing" with the length of sides of the sail...

My OTHER rig for same whaleboat was a much taller mast flying a triangular sail, one sprit as boom.  (Built this because the quad sail would roll side-by-side terribly downwind especially when upper sprit got to the "wrong" side of the wind - once actually rolled the boat totally turtle!) Yes this mast had a track, so I could easily drop sail down-mast a few feet, engage aft end of sprit to another clew rope... then of course the heel of the sprit went much further forward of mast (lots of snotter line required - it was a four-part tackle!) Yes the sail track avoided hoops or lacing so the snotter could remain attached to front edge of mast during reefing procedure.

I also had a second deeper reef, but by then the heel of the long sprit was so far forward that it didn't give good shape to the rather small triangle remaining. .. tried a much longer clew-rope, which helped somewhat -- solution (never implemented) would be to carry along a shorter sprit.

Regards,
Wayne Gilham


-------- Original message --------
From: "thedumbox@...[bolger]"
Date:08/22/2015 10:37 AM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: [bolger] Re: Sail Track/Luff Track

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I have a Spritsail and I saw two videos (one of which is linked hereSailing on the Spritsail. Banks Channel, Wrightsville Beach.Another was of a Norwegian boat, but I disremember where the video link is. Both boats are sloop rigged. The objection to the spritsail is that it is difficult to reef, but track would allow one to place a snotter arrangement on the face of the mast where it would not interfere with lacings or robands. One could put another reefing snotter attachment on the face of the mast so that moving the sprit when reefing would be a much easier, or quicker, operation. Hence the purpose of my inquiry. I think it makes sense, but maybe not cents. I like the spritsail sloop rig and put up with its inconveniences because it is an effective rig. But as I get older, but not much richer, I would like to make things a bit easier. I have thought ab out a wooden luff groove for the luff rope, but I have questions about whether it would hold the sail strongly and effectively.


I've used the bolger-payson method. It is a good way to drop the sail, but some of the laces have to be untied when reefing. Using zip ties would not help in that regard, I don't think.

image
Sailing on the Spritsail. Banks Channel, Wrightsville Be...
The Humphrey Spritsail is a legendary wooden sailboat that resides in the waters near Masonboro Island. A four cornered main sail cal led a Spritsail. This is a squ...
Preview by Yahoo

< /p>


D

So your sprit sail is quadrilateral not triangular... i have a quad-sail rig with two spritbooms, one to head (as per video) and also one to clew... had the sail cut so that when "scandalized" (dropping head and its sprit), the head came exactly down to the tack, leaving a leg'o'mutton double-thickness sail flying...A rather drastic percentage reef (half!) but very neat. Takes some "playing" with the length of sides of the sail...

My OTHER rig for same whaleboat was a much taller mast flying a triangular sail, one sprit as boom.  (Built this because the quad sail would roll side-by-side terribly downwind especially when upper sprit got to the "wrong" side of the wind - once actually rolled the boat totally turtle!) Yes this mast had a track, so I could easily drop sail down-mast a few feet, engage aft end of sprit to another clew rope... then of course the heel of the sprit went much further forward of mast (lots of snotter line required - it was a four-part tackle!) Yes the sail track avoided hoops or lacing so the snotter could remain attached to front edge of mast during reefing procedure.

I also had a second deeper reef, but by then the heel of the long sprit was so far forward that it didn't give good shape to the rather small triangle remaining. .. tried a much longer clew-rope, which helped somewhat -- solution (never implemented) would be to carry along a shorter sprit.

Regards,
Wayne Gilham


-------- Original message --------
From: "thedumbox@... [bolger]"
Date:08/22/2015 10:37 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Sail Track/Luff Track

 

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I have a Spritsail and I saw two videos (one of which is linked hereSailing on the Spritsail. Banks Channel, Wrightsville Beach. Another was of a Norwegian boat, but I disremember where the video link is. Both boats are sloop rigged. The objection to the spritsail is that it is difficult to reef, but track would allow one to place a snotter arrangement on the face of the mast where it would not interfere with lacings or robands. One could put another reefing snotter attachment on the face of the mast so that moving the sprit when reefing would be a much easier, or quicker, operation. Hence the purpose of my inquiry. I think it makes sense, but maybe not cents. I like the spritsail sloop rig and put up with its inconveniences because it is an effective rig. But as I get older, but not much richer, I would like to make things a bit easier. I have thought ab out a wooden luff groove for the luff rope, but I have questions about whether it would hold the sail strongly and effectively.


I've used the bolger-payson method. It is a good way to drop the sail, but some of the laces have to be untied when reefing. Using zip ties would not help in that regard, I don't think.

 < /p>


D

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I have a Spritsail and I saw two videos (one of which is linked hereSailing on the Spritsail. Banks Channel, Wrightsville Beach. Another was of a Norwegian boat, but I disremember where the video link is. Both boats are sloop rigged. The objection to the spritsail is that it is difficult to reef, but track would allow one to place a snotter arrangement on the face of the mast where it would not interfere with lacings or robands. One could put another reefing snotter attachment on the face of the mast so that moving the sprit when reefing would be a much easier, or quicker, operation. Hence the purpose of my inquiry. I think it makes sense, but maybe not cents. I like the spritsail sloop rig and put up with its inconveniences because it is an effective rig. But as I get older, but not much richer, I would like to make things a bit easier. I have thought about a wooden luff groove for the luff rope, but I have questions about whether it would hold the sail strongly and effectively.


I've used the bolger-payson method. It is a good way to drop the sail, but some of the laces have to be untied when reefing. Using zip ties would not help in that regard, I don't think.

Interesting regarding the zip ties. They're certainly slippery. Clever.

On Aug 20, 2015 5:00 AM, "polysail@...[bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Lashing is the traditional way to attach a sail to a mast, and at least one of those techniques attributed to Bolger and found in Payson's book will beat any other attachment technique for dousing a sail. It's the method shown on the left in this Irwin Schuster diagram. Our contribution to that design was to fasten the lines together forward of the mast with simple cable zip ties. We found early on that heavier zip ties also make quick and easy mast hoops as an alternative means of attachment when adjusted loosely, so we always include them with our sails and kits for people who want to get on the water quickly.


Dave Gray
PolySail International

I use the "correct zig-zag" method shown and it works great.

 

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From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]
Sent:Thursday, August 20, 2015 8:01 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Re: Sail Track/Luff Track [1 Attachment]

 

 

Lashing is the traditional way to attach a sail to a mast, and at least one of those techniques attributed to Bolger and found in Payson's book will beat any other attachment technique for dousing a sail. It's the method shown on the left in this Irwin Schuster diagram. Our contribution to that design was to fasten the lines together forward of the mast with simple cable zip ties. We found early on that heavier zip ties also make quick and easy mast hoops as an alternative means of attachment when adjusted loosely, so we always include them with our sails and kits for people who want to get on the water quickly.

 

Dave Gray

PolySail International

Jamestown Distributors has sail track, but it’s not cheap.

 

JohnT

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent:Thursday, August 20, 2015 2:09 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Sail Track/Luff Track

 

 

You can build a wooden mast with a slot for the sail luff rope also. Thats how my El Toro mast was many years ago.

 

HJ

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:08:47 -0700, "tom sorensen tdsoren@... [bolger]" < bolger@yahoogroups.com > wrote:



Abandon it completely and lace it on or go lugsail or spritsail :-)

 

Tom

 

 

tom sorensen

 

 

On Aug 19, 2015, at 1:54 PM,thedumbox@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

DIYers, sail track is expensive. Is there an alternative that I can purchase from Lowe's or some other box store? Has anyone here made their own? Some fellow in Maine built an Old Shoe and in one of his videos he made mention of it. I was too deaf to catch it all and am at a loss to find the video now. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dennis

 

 

 

 

 

Lashing is the traditional way to attach a sail to a mast, and at least one of those techniques attributed to Bolger and found in Payson's book will beat any other attachment technique for dousing a sail. It's the method shown on the left in this Irwin Schuster diagram. Our contribution to that design was to fasten the lines together forward of the mast with simple cable zip ties. We found early on that heavier zip ties also make quick and easy mast hoops as an alternative means of attachment when adjusted loosely, so we always include them with our sails and kits for people who want to get on the water quickly.

Dave Gray
PolySail International

You can build a wooden mast with a slot for the sail luff rope also. Thats how my El Toro mast was many years ago.

HJ

On Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:08:47 -0700, "tom sorensen tdsoren@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Abandon it completely and lace it on or go lugsail or spritsail :-)
Tom

tom sorensen

On Aug 19, 2015, at 1:54 PM,thedumbox@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

DIYers, sail track is expensive. Is there an alternative that I can purchase from Lowe's or some other box store? Has anyone here made their own? Some fellow in Maine built an Old Shoe and in one of his videos he made mention of it. I was too deaf to catch it all and am at a loss to find the video now. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dennis





Tom's idea is actually pretty sound.  My smaller spritsails are laced on and I just roll up the entire rig on the mast when not in use.  If you want to raise and lower a laced sail I recommend lacing alternately, not round and round.  My gaff rigged boats have used parrel beads on a line with a crown knot and spliced eye for easy removal.

In lieu of purchasing a track you can use a router to cut one into your mast (depending on the design) or you can mill an external track out of wood and attach that.  There are affordable slugs or cars available from Duckworks.

I once saw a track built out of strips of UHMD poly, glued/nailed together to create a track.  Like so:

XXXX___XXXX
XX________XX
XXXXXXXXXXX

(X is the poly sheet, _ is empty space)

YMMV


On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 1:54 PM,thedumbox@...[bolger]<bolger@yahoogroups.com>wrote:

DIYers, sail track is expensive. Is there an alternative that I can purchase from Lowe's or some other box store? Has anyone here made their own? Some fellow in Maine built an Old Shoe and in one of his videos he made mention of it. I was too deaf to catch it all and am at a loss to find the video now. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dennis


Abandon it completely and lace it on or go lugsail or spritsail :-)

Tom


tom sorensen



On Aug 19, 2015, at 1:54 PM,thedumbox@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


DIYers, sail track is expensive. Is there an alternative that I can purchase from Lowe's or some other box store? Has anyone here made their own? Some fellow in Maine built an Old Shoe and in one of his videos he made mention of it. I was too deaf to catch it all and am at a loss to find the video now. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dennis



DIYers, sail track is expensive. Is there an alternative that I can purchase from Lowe's or some other box store? Has anyone here made their own? Some fellow in Maine built an Old Shoe and in one of his videos he made mention of it. I was too deaf to catch it all and am at a loss to find the video now. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dennis