Re: Re: Re: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls [3 Attachments]
We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
On ene 31, 2016, at 9:26 pm, Stefan Topolskipublic@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
>
> Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> On ene 10, 2016, at 9:56 am,dir_cobb@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Susanne
>
> Great to gear back from you and see so much is happening again.
>
> I think I will definitely use 6oz. Not sure if one or two layers...
>
> My experience with epoxy on the interior has been great. I'm not sure about the benefits of cloth there though.
>
> Building is now suspended until February for me so enjoying a rest, and sailing, and other such distractions.
>
> David in Chile.
>
We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
On ene 31, 2016, at 9:26 pm, Stefan Topolskipublic@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
>
> Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> On ene 9, 2016, at 9:32 pm,philbolger@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello All. And a Happy and Productive New Year.
>
> David’s SEABIRD-86 in Chile will see quite a few road-miles, as seems likely for Oddbjorn’s JOCHEMS in Norge as well.
> This suggest to be generous with glass-thickness between road-vibration chafe, hauling-scrapes, dealing with all sorts of floats and landings plus the risks through the relaxed exploration of shorelines and beaches.
> For how many man-hours and wood such projects consume, going quite far during construction to make them last longer seems a wise investment.
>
> On #681 SACPAS-3/GADABOUT (39’1” x 7’5” x 14” x 225HP) all hull-surfaces below her sheer/rub-rail received 2 layers of 10oz glass –cloth, with three in certain areas.
> Whenever possible – with area, man-power and temperatures dictating things – we tried to do a wet-in-wet-epoxy laminating of both, meaning letting the first layer of glass cure towards tackiness to then apply in the same sequence/direction the second skin.
> This wet-in-wet operation allows best chemical bonding of both successive layers without having to remove the blush, and without sanding in between.
> And if there is any energy left – or one uses slow hardener along with cat-naps – adding a first weave-filling skim-coat of e.g. WEST 407 filler over the final glass-coat while still tacky would be the most productive approach, with again no sanding until that filler-coat has cured.
> Without multiple sanding-episodes by going ‘wet-in-wet’, there is no loss in epoxy and nor in glass thickness to produce tediously laborious and rather expensive and itchy dust...
>
> On #681 we used chunky plywood-piece-based 2’1/4 x 3” chine-logs inside.
> We glassed, surface-sanded and painted to next-to-final coat both topsides and hull-bottom before assembling them into a hull.
> Once the full-length bottom-panel was completed upside-down and then turned over, the frames and bulkheads were set up to then allow bringing in and fastening the topsides.
> What remained unfinished would be the seam between bottom and topsides on this simple hull, requiring two layers of glass-tape, then filling the weave, sanding all, and finally the paint for an invisible joint without any tape protruding.
> Finally a final coat of paint over that seam.
> Then bottom-paint...
>
> Beyond the already known must-do book projects around the Archive, my intent is to compress the #681 building-experience into a Construction-Manual, useful for this particular construction-approach.
> Had there been adequate budget from the initial project-partners, per initial contract this book would exist by now to support ‘non-boat-builders’ like us here on this project to assembly such a hull.
> As I’ve stated in the previous e-mail, still lots to be done.
>
>
> Finally, in a conversation the other day with WOODENBOAT and BDQ’s Mike O’Brien he shared more episodes of him building boats on the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia.
> As he stated laconically, if something will rot, it will go fastest there in the hot and muggy climate...
> He is absolutely adamant on using serious amounts of epoxy inside and out to significantly extend the life of the hull.
> He was dismayed to find his old BLACK SKIMMER (Design #294) abandoned two+ decades after he had built her, sailed her extensively, and then sold her ‘into good hands’.
> She sat by the side of a road, hatch-covers missing and thus full of rain.
> He felt compelled to examine her up-close and found her to still be sound.
> He concluded that copious amounts of epoxy on her inside as well had protected the structure despite this level of neglect.
> Thus he distinctly disagreed with Phil over ‘letting the inside of the wood breathe by not coating it’...
> As did I. Hence the significant budget line-item on epoxy on this 39-footer as well.
>
> Incidentally, once you are coating the inside as well, gluing-in closed-cell foam-sheets, chunks, or filling with pour-in foam various compartments will allow building a boat with a fairly high degree of ‘Sinking Resistance’ – even in well-ballasted mono-hulls like Seabird ’86.
> As is integrated on quite a few of Phil’s plans from even several decades ago, my #681 powerboat design has 2000+lbs of built-in positive buoyancy after subtracting her 250lbs of batteries, 530lbs of V-6 outboard, 35lbs of DELTA plow, plus chain etc.
> Here therefore an amateur-built 39-footer built to a higher standard of safety than typically available in the market-place !!
> One of the may intriguing options when building in plywood/epoxy/fiberglass and foam.
>
> And thus I may have triggered an extensive discussion on the merits of epoxying what, where etc... and why all this is wrong etc...
>
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
>
>
>
>
>
We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
On ene 31, 2016, at 9:26 pm, Stefan Topolskipublic@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
>
> Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> On ene 10, 2016, at 10:27 am,philbolger@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Good to hear from you, David.
> Apologies about the misunderstanding I may have caused.
> Apart from epoxy,no glass proposed on the interior, except in high-wear areas, such as a sole if floor-boards would not match a tall frame, etc.
>
> Good to be reminded of the obvious weather- and thus boat-building-related differences in our two hemispheres.
> Right now it seems to hot for you
> ‘Up here’ winter is indeed kicking in, slowing things down.
>
> After a mild fall, from now on any work on the boat here will be at best cutting into her structure to then dry-fit new pieces, all under reliable tarps to keep the snow out which last winter here on the Atlantic Coast showed up in about 108 inches of depth.
> Only when temperatures reliably stay above 5C./40F. will it be time for epoxy-work.
> Unfortunately my preferred heavy-pigment oil-based paint should not be used below 11C./50F.
> So it is covers over epoxied surfaces to not even let the sun begin to start chewing on the good stuff.
>
> Sailing ? Of course in the days of commerce under sail work would continue today on this rainy Sunday since there are gusts up to 80kmh/50mph along the coast at a record-breaking one-day-only balmy 10+C/50+F.
> But while some form of wind-power would seem useful, no such technology is in use commercially in these parts right now.
> There may however be someone in a dry-suit in the Outer Harbor on a wind-surfer or harnessing a kite to do mad speeds and stunts.
> In Maine on frozen lakes it is beginning to be ice-boat sailing time.
>
> I won’t join however, as downstairs in the shop I am starting to build a roof-extension for SACPAS-3/GADABOUT, under conditions dry, no wind but with the radio, coffee and treats...
> There must be treats !
>
> Susanne
>
>
> From: mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 9:56 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
> Dear Susanne
>
> Great to gear back from you and see so much is happening again.
>
> I think I will definitely use 6oz. Not sure if one or two layers...
>
> My experience with epoxy on the interior has been great. I'm not sure about the benefits of cloth there though.
>
> Building is now suspended until February for me so enjoying a rest, and sailing, and other such distractions.
>
> David in Chile.
>
>
We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
On ene 31, 2016, at 9:25 pm, Stefan Topolskipublic@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
>
> Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> On ene 11, 2016, at 10:15 am,philbolger@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Patrick,
> as stated earlier, that is how the 39-footer project was built.
> We leveraged gravity as our ‘friend’ working as much as possible on tables and over ‘saw-horses’ to do assembly, detailing, epoxying, glassing, finishing and most of the painting of near everything from the smallest bulkhead, over the one-piece roof-top, all the way to the heaviest single piece of her - the hull-bottom.
>
> Hence no ‘runs’ in epoxy, wrinkles in glass-cloth, or droops in paint.
> This takes working out a range of ‘policies’ for joints in various locations, particularly on the outside of the hull and of course below the waterline.
>
> And as a consequence finishing her bottom upside-down required rotation of just this one assembly through 180-degrees, with everything else walked in and connected to each other ‘right-side-up’...
> Meaning no trying to turn a full-size largely-assembled hull. However this all depends upon hull-shape etc.
>
> But since this worked well on this single-chine 39-footer, it will do so both no doubt in smaller such hulls, and with further thought and adaptation in larger such hulls as well.
> In extensive fits of self-indulgence I put much of this into a range of MAIB features.
>
> Yes, Patrick, ‘Great Minds Think Alike...’
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> From: mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:35 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
>
> If you look at Nexus Marine's website (Black Skimmer build), they glassed the panels (bottom and sides) before final mounting and fastening. With a single layer of 'glass and gentle curves, this looks like a good solution...
> Has anyone ever tried this?
>
> Patrick A. Connor
> Executive Vice President | Manager, National Services Group
>
> T: 614.341.1900 | C: 614.208.9308 | F: 614.341.1903
>pconnor@...
> Old Republic National Title Insurance Company | Old Republic Insurance Group
> 141 East Town Street | Suite 101 | Columbus, OH 43215
> oldrepublictitle.com
>
> Important Notice: The information contained in this email is private and confidential. It is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above or are not an agency of the recipient(s), then you have received this email in error, and to review, distribute or copy this transmission or its attachment(s) is strictly prohibited by federal law. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by email immediately. If you are the proper recipient and this email contains "protected health information," you must abide by the rules of the HIPAA and other privacy laws that apply. Thank you for your attention to this notice.
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 9:33 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
> Hello All. And a Happy and Productive New Year.
>
> David’s SEABIRD-86 in Chile will see quite a few road-miles, as seems likely for Oddbjorn’s JOCHEMS in Norge as well.
> This suggest to be generous with glass-thickness between road-vibration chafe, hauling-scrapes, dealing with all sorts of floats and landings plus the risks through the relaxed exploration of shorelines and beaches.
> For how many man-hours and wood such projects consume, going quite far during construction to make them last longer seems a wise investment.
>
> On #681 SACPAS-3/GADABOUT (39’1” x 7’5” x 14” x 225HP) all hull-surfaces below her sheer/rub-rail received 2 layers of 10oz glass –cloth, with three in certain areas.
> Whenever possible – with area, man-power and temperatures dictating things – we tried to do a wet-in-wet-epoxy laminating of both, meaning letting the first layer of glass cure towards tackiness to then apply in the same sequence/direction the second skin.
> This wet-in-wet operation allows best chemical bonding of both successive layers without having to remove the blush, and without sanding in between.
> And if there is any energy left – or one uses slow hardener along with cat-naps – adding a first weave-filling skim-coat of e.g. WEST 407 filler over the final glass-coat while still tacky would be the most productive approach, with again no sanding until that filler-coat has cured.
> Without multiple sanding-episodes by going ‘wet-in-wet’, there is no loss in epoxy and nor in glass thickness to produce tediously laborious and rather expensive and itchy dust...
>
> On #681 we used chunky plywood-piece-based 2’1/4 x 3” chine-logs inside.
> We glassed, surface-sanded and painted to next-to-final coat both topsides and hull-bottom before assembling them into a hull.
> Once the full-length bottom-panel was completed upside-down and then turned over, the frames and bulkheads were set up to then allow bringing in and fastening the topsides.
> What remained unfinished would be the seam between bottom and topsides on this simple hull, requiring two layers of glass-tape, then filling the weave, sanding all, and finally the paint for an invisible joint without any tape protruding.
> Finally a final coat of paint over that seam.
> Then bottom-paint...
>
> Beyond the already known must-do book projects around the Archive, my intent is to compress the #681 building-experience into a Construction-Manual, useful for this particular construction-approach.
> Had there been adequate budget from the initial project-partners, per initial contract this book would exist by now to support ‘non-boat-builders’ like us here on this project to assembly such a hull.
> As I’ve stated in the previous e-mail, still lots to be done.
>
>
> Finally, in a conversation the other day with WOODENBOAT and BDQ’s Mike O’Brien he shared more episodes of him building boats on the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia.
> As he stated laconically, if something will rot, it will go fastest there in the hot and muggy climate...
> He is absolutely adamant on using serious amounts of epoxy inside and out to significantly extend the life of the hull.
> He was dismayed to find his old BLACK SKIMMER (Design #294) abandoned two+ decades after he had built her, sailed her extensively, and then sold her ‘into good hands’.
> She sat by the side of a road, hatch-covers missing and thus full of rain.
> He felt compelled to examine her up-close and found her to still be sound.
> He concluded that copious amounts of epoxy on her inside as well had protected the structure despite this level of neglect.
> Thus he distinctly disagreed with Phil over ‘letting the inside of the wood breathe by not coating it’...
> As did I. Hence the significant budget line-item on epoxy on this 39-footer as well.
>
> Incidentally, once you are coating the inside as well, gluing-in closed-cell foam-sheets, chunks, or filling with pour-in foam various compartments will allow building a boat with a fairly high degree of ‘Sinking Resistance’ – even in well-ballasted mono-hulls like Seabird ’86.
> As is integrated on quite a few of Phil’s plans from even several decades ago, my #681 powerboat design has 2000+lbs of built-in positive buoyancy after subtracting her 250lbs of batteries, 530lbs of V-6 outboard, 35lbs of DELTA plow, plus chain etc.
> Here therefore an amateur-built 39-footer built to a higher standard of safety than typically available in the market-place !!
> One of the may intriguing options when building in plywood/epoxy/fiberglass and foam.
>
> And thus I may have triggered an extensive discussion on the merits of epoxying what, where etc... and why all this is wrong etc...
>
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
On ene 31, 2016, at 9:25 pm, Stefan Topolskipublic@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
>
> Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> On ene 11, 2016, at 9:35 am, 'Connor, Patrick'pconnor@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> If you look at Nexus Marine's website (Black Skimmer build), they glassed the panels (bottom and sides) before final mounting and fastening. With a single layer of 'glass and gentle curves, this looks like a good solution...
> Has anyone ever tried this?
>
> Patrick A. Connor
> Executive Vice President | Manager, National Services Group
>
> T: 614.341.1900 | C: 614.208.9308 | F: 614.341.1903
>pconnor@...
> Old Republic National Title Insurance Company | Old Republic Insurance Group
> 141 East Town Street | Suite 101 | Columbus, OH 43215
> oldrepublictitle.com
>
> Important Notice: The information contained in this email is private and confidential. It is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above or are not an agency of the recipient(s), then you have received this email in error, and to review, distribute or copy this transmission or its attachment(s) is strictly prohibited by federal law. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by email immediately. If you are the proper recipient and this email contains "protected health information," you must abide by the rules of the HIPAA and other privacy laws that apply. Thank you for your attention to this notice.
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 9:33 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
> Hello All. And a Happy and Productive New Year.
>
> David’s SEABIRD-86 in Chile will see quite a few road-miles, as seems likely for Oddbjorn’s JOCHEMS in Norge as well.
> This suggest to be generous with glass-thickness between road-vibration chafe, hauling-scrapes, dealing with all sorts of floats and landings plus the risks through the relaxed exploration of shorelines and beaches.
> For how many man-hours and wood such projects consume, going quite far during construction to make them last longer seems a wise investment.
>
> On #681 SACPAS-3/GADABOUT (39’1” x 7’5” x 14” x 225HP) all hull-surfaces below her sheer/rub-rail received 2 layers of 10oz glass –cloth, with three in certain areas.
> Whenever possible – with area, man-power and temperatures dictating things – we tried to do a wet-in-wet-epoxy laminating of both, meaning letting the first layer of glass cure towards tackiness to then apply in the same sequence/direction the second skin.
> This wet-in-wet operation allows best chemical bonding of both successive layers without having to remove the blush, and without sanding in between.
> And if there is any energy left – or one uses slow hardener along with cat-naps – adding a first weave-filling skim-coat of e.g. WEST 407 filler over the final glass-coat while still tacky would be the most productive approach, with again no sanding until that filler-coat has cured.
> Without multiple sanding-episodes by going ‘wet-in-wet’, there is no loss in epoxy and nor in glass thickness to produce tediously laborious and rather expensive and itchy dust...
>
> On #681 we used chunky plywood-piece-based 2’1/4 x 3” chine-logs inside.
> We glassed, surface-sanded and painted to next-to-final coat both topsides and hull-bottom before assembling them into a hull.
> Once the full-length bottom-panel was completed upside-down and then turned over, the frames and bulkheads were set up to then allow bringing in and fastening the topsides.
> What remained unfinished would be the seam between bottom and topsides on this simple hull, requiring two layers of glass-tape, then filling the weave, sanding all, and finally the paint for an invisible joint without any tape protruding.
> Finally a final coat of paint over that seam.
> Then bottom-paint...
>
> Beyond the already known must-do book projects around the Archive, my intent is to compress the #681 building-experience into a Construction-Manual, useful for this particular construction-approach.
> Had there been adequate budget from the initial project-partners, per initial contract this book would exist by now to support ‘non-boat-builders’ like us here on this project to assembly such a hull.
> As I’ve stated in the previous e-mail, still lots to be done.
>
>
> Finally, in a conversation the other day with WOODENBOAT and BDQ’s Mike O’Brien he shared more episodes of him building boats on the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia.
> As he stated laconically, if something will rot, it will go fastest there in the hot and muggy climate...
> He is absolutely adamant on using serious amounts of epoxy inside and out to significantly extend the life of the hull.
> He was dismayed to find his old BLACK SKIMMER (Design #294) abandoned two+ decades after he had built her, sailed her extensively, and then sold her ‘into good hands’.
> She sat by the side of a road, hatch-covers missing and thus full of rain.
> He felt compelled to examine her up-close and found her to still be sound.
> He concluded that copious amounts of epoxy on her inside as well had protected the structure despite this level of neglect.
> Thus he distinctly disagreed with Phil over ‘letting the inside of the wood breathe by not coating it’...
> As did I. Hence the significant budget line-item on epoxy on this 39-footer as well.
>
> Incidentally, once you are coating the inside as well, gluing-in closed-cell foam-sheets, chunks, or filling with pour-in foam various compartments will allow building a boat with a fairly high degree of ‘Sinking Resistance’ – even in well-ballasted mono-hulls like Seabird ’86.
> As is integrated on quite a few of Phil’s plans from even several decades ago, my #681 powerboat design has 2000+lbs of built-in positive buoyancy after subtracting her 250lbs of batteries, 530lbs of V-6 outboard, 35lbs of DELTA plow, plus chain etc.
> Here therefore an amateur-built 39-footer built to a higher standard of safety than typically available in the market-place !!
> One of the may intriguing options when building in plywood/epoxy/fiberglass and foam.
>
> And thus I may have triggered an extensive discussion on the merits of epoxying what, where etc... and why all this is wrong etc...
>
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
On ene 31, 2016, at 9:25 pm, Stefan Topolskipublic@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
>
> Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> On ene 11, 2016, at 11:14 am, 'John Trussell'jtrussell2@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Suzanne,
>
> I agree in principal, but it should be noted that a fiberglassed plywood panel is significantly stiffer than an un glassed panel. This can lead to major problems if you are dealing with a “developed” plywood hull. (Don’t ask me how I know!)
>
> JohnT
>
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 10:15 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
> Patrick,
> as stated earlier, that is how the 39-footer project was built.
> We leveraged gravity as our ‘friend’ working as much as possible on tables and over ‘saw-horses’ to do assembly, detailing, epoxying, glassing, finishing and most of the painting of near everything from the smallest bulkhead, over the one-piece roof-top, all the way to the heaviest single piece of her - the hull-bottom.
>
> Hence no ‘runs’ in epoxy, wrinkles in glass-cloth, or droops in paint.
> This takes working out a range of ‘policies’ for joints in various locations, particularly on the outside of the hull and of course below the waterline.
>
> And as a consequence finishing her bottom upside-down required rotation of just this one assembly through 180-degrees, with everything else walked in and connected to each other ‘right-side-up’...
> Meaning no trying to turn a full-size largely-assembled hull. However this all depends upon hull-shape etc.
>
> But since this worked well on this single-chine 39-footer, it will do so both no doubt in smaller such hulls, and with further thought and adaptation in larger such hulls as well.
> In extensive fits of self-indulgence I put much of this into a range of MAIB features.
>
> Yes, Patrick, ‘Great Minds Think Alike...’
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> From: mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:35 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
> If you look at Nexus Marine's website (Black Skimmer build), they glassed the panels (bottom and sides) before final mounting and fastening. With a single layer of 'glass and gentle curves, this looks like a good solution...
> Has anyone ever tried this?
> Patrick A. Connor
> Executive Vice President | Manager, National Services Group
>
> T: 614.341.1900 | C: 614.208.9308 | F: 614.341.1903
>pconnor@...
> Old Republic National Title Insurance Company | Old Republic Insurance Group
> 141 East Town Street | Suite 101 | Columbus, OH 43215
> oldrepublictitle.com
> Important Notice: The information contained in this email is private and confidential. It is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above or are not an agency of the recipient(s), then you have received this email in error, and to review, distribute or copy this transmission or its attachment(s) is strictly prohibited by federal law. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by email immediately. If you are the proper recipient and this email contains "protected health information," you must abide by the rules of the HIPAA and other privacy laws that apply. Thank you for your attention to this notice.
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 9:33 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
> Hello All. And a Happy and Productive New Year.
>
> David’s SEABIRD-86 in Chile will see quite a few road-miles, as seems likely for Oddbjorn’s JOCHEMS in Norge as well.
> This suggest to be generous with glass-thickness between road-vibration chafe, hauling-scrapes, dealing with all sorts of floats and landings plus the risks through the relaxed exploration of shorelines and beaches.
> For how many man-hours and wood such projects consume, going quite far during construction to make them last longer seems a wise investment.
>
> On #681 SACPAS-3/GADABOUT (39’1” x 7’5” x 14” x 225HP) all hull-surfaces below her sheer/rub-rail received 2 layers of 10oz glass –cloth, with three in certain areas.
> Whenever possible – with area, man-power and temperatures dictating things – we tried to do a wet-in-wet-epoxy laminating of both, meaning letting the first layer of glass cure towards tackiness to then apply in the same sequence/direction the second skin.
> This wet-in-wet operation allows best chemical bonding of both successive layers without having to remove the blush, and without sanding in between.
> And if there is any energy left – or one uses slow hardener along with cat-naps – adding a first weave-filling skim-coat of e.g. WEST 407 filler over the final glass-coat while still tacky would be the most productive approach, with again no sanding until that filler-coat has cured.
> Without multiple sanding-episodes by going ‘wet-in-wet’, there is no loss in epoxy and nor in glass thickness to produce tediously laborious and rather expensive and itchy dust...
>
> On #681 we used chunky plywood-piece-based 2’1/4 x 3” chine-logs inside.
> We glassed, surface-sanded and painted to next-to-final coat both topsides and hull-bottom before assembling them into a hull.
> Once the full-length bottom-panel was completed upside-down and then turned over, the frames and bulkheads were set up to then allow bringing in and fastening the topsides.
> What remained unfinished would be the seam between bottom and topsides on this simple hull, requiring two layers of glass-tape, then filling the weave, sanding all, and finally the paint for an invisible joint without any tape protruding.
> Finally a final coat of paint over that seam.
> Then bottom-paint...
>
> Beyond the already known must-do book projects around the Archive, my intent is to compress the #681 building-experience into a Construction-Manual, useful for this particular construction-approach.
> Had there been adequate budget from the initial project-partners, per initial contract this book would exist by now to support ‘non-boat-builders’ like us here on this project to assembly such a hull.
> As I’ve stated in the previous e-mail, still lots to be done.
>
>
> Finally, in a conversation the other day with WOODENBOAT and BDQ’s Mike O’Brien he shared more episodes of him building boats on the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia.
> As he stated laconically, if something will rot, it will go fastest there in the hot and muggy climate...
> He is absolutely adamant on using serious amounts of epoxy inside and out to significantly extend the life of the hull.
> He was dismayed to find his old BLACK SKIMMER (Design #294) abandoned two+ decades after he had built her, sailed her extensively, and then sold her ‘into good hands’.
> She sat by the side of a road, hatch-covers missing and thus full of rain.
> He felt compelled to examine her up-close and found her to still be sound.
> He concluded that copious amounts of epoxy on her inside as well had protected the structure despite this level of neglect.
> Thus he distinctly disagreed with Phil over ‘letting the inside of the wood breathe by not coating it’...
> As did I. Hence the significant budget line-item on epoxy on this 39-footer as well.
>
> Incidentally, once you are coating the inside as well, gluing-in closed-cell foam-sheets, chunks, or filling with pour-in foam various compartments will allow building a boat with a fairly high degree of ‘Sinking Resistance’ – even in well-ballasted mono-hulls like Seabird ’86.
> As is integrated on quite a few of Phil’s plans from even several decades ago, my #681 powerboat design has 2000+lbs of built-in positive buoyancy after subtracting her 250lbs of batteries, 530lbs of V-6 outboard, 35lbs of DELTA plow, plus chain etc.
> Here therefore an amateur-built 39-footer built to a higher standard of safety than typically available in the market-place !!
> One of the may intriguing options when building in plywood/epoxy/fiberglass and foam.
>
> And thus I may have triggered an extensive discussion on the merits of epoxying what, where etc... and why all this is wrong etc...
>
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
Thank you very much.
On ene 31, 2016, at 9:25 pm, Stefan Topolskipublic@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> We apologize as your email may not have been recognized and received by your addressee.
>
> Please contact Dr. Topolski, Trailside Health, and our nonprofit Caring in Community 501(c)3 directly by phone or fax.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> On ene 11, 2016, at 11:31 am,philbolger@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> John,
> we laminated the significant curvature of her bottom and the milder topsides curve (plus the twist forward) right into these panels, then glassed, surfaced, and painted them.
> We ended up recycling the ‘horses’ over which we did the topsides first to then carry the weight of that near 1000lbs completed-w/-vee-nose bottom-panel.
>
> Ergo no trying to bend epoxied and glassed pieces, as that would stress that work and possibly introduce minuscule cracks that might end up compromising their longevity.
> There was just enough flexibility left in the de-facto ‘cold-molded’ 2x 1/2”=1” bottom-piece and 2x 3/8”= 3/4” topsides to allow minor adjustments for a perfect union of these along her chine-logs.
>
> I would not have counted on even the un-glassed panels to allow the designed curvatures and twists.
> Hence the double-layers of both and the laminating-in of curves and twists.
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
> From: mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 11:14 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
>
> Suzanne,
>
> I agree in principal, but it should be noted that a fiberglassed plywood panel is significantly stiffer than an un glassed panel. This can lead to major problems if you are dealing with a “developed” plywood hull. (Don’t ask me how I know!)
>
> JohnT
>
>
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 10:15 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
> Patrick,
> as stated earlier, that is how the 39-footer project was built.
> We leveraged gravity as our ‘friend’ working as much as possible on tables and over ‘saw-horses’ to do assembly, detailing, epoxying, glassing, finishing and most of the painting of near everything from the smallest bulkhead, over the one-piece roof-top, all the way to the heaviest single piece of her - the hull-bottom.
>
> Hence no ‘runs’ in epoxy, wrinkles in glass-cloth, or droops in paint.
> This takes working out a range of ‘policies’ for joints in various locations, particularly on the outside of the hull and of course below the waterline.
>
> And as a consequence finishing her bottom upside-down required rotation of just this one assembly through 180-degrees, with everything else walked in and connected to each other ‘right-side-up’...
> Meaning no trying to turn a full-size largely-assembled hull. However this all depends upon hull-shape etc.
>
> But since this worked well on this single-chine 39-footer, it will do so both no doubt in smaller such hulls, and with further thought and adaptation in larger such hulls as well.
> In extensive fits of self-indulgence I put much of this into a range of MAIB features.
>
> Yes, Patrick, ‘Great Minds Think Alike...’
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
> From: mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:35 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
>
> If you look at Nexus Marine's website (Black Skimmer build), they glassed the panels (bottom and sides) before final mounting and fastening. With a single layer of 'glass and gentle curves, this looks like a good solution...
> Has anyone ever tried this?
> Patrick A. Connor
> Executive Vice President | Manager, National Services Group
>
> T: 614.341.1900 | C: 614.208.9308 | F: 614.341.1903
>pconnor@...
> Old Republic National Title Insurance Company | Old Republic Insurance Group
> 141 East Town Street | Suite 101 | Columbus, OH 43215
> oldrepublictitle.com
> Important Notice: The information contained in this email is private and confidential. It is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above or are not an agency of the recipient(s), then you have received this email in error, and to review, distribute or copy this transmission or its attachment(s) is strictly prohibited by federal law. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by email immediately. If you are the proper recipient and this email contains "protected health information," you must abide by the rules of the HIPAA and other privacy laws that apply. Thank you for your attention to this notice.
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 9:33 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Glassing plywood hulls
>
> Hello All. And a Happy and Productive New Year.
>
> David’s SEABIRD-86 in Chile will see quite a few road-miles, as seems likely for Oddbjorn’s JOCHEMS in Norge as well.
> This suggest to be generous with glass-thickness between road-vibration chafe, hauling-scrapes, dealing with all sorts of floats and landings plus the risks through the relaxed exploration of shorelines and beaches.
> For how many man-hours and wood such projects consume, going quite far during construction to make them last longer seems a wise investment.
>
> On #681 SACPAS-3/GADABOUT (39’1” x 7’5” x 14” x 225HP) all hull-surfaces below her sheer/rub-rail received 2 layers of 10oz glass –cloth, with three in certain areas.
> Whenever possible – with area, man-power and temperatures dictating things – we tried to do a wet-in-wet-epoxy laminating of both, meaning letting the first layer of glass cure towards tackiness to then apply in the same sequence/direction the second skin.
> This wet-in-wet operation allows best chemical bonding of both successive layers without having to remove the blush, and without sanding in between.
> And if there is any energy left – or one uses slow hardener along with cat-naps – adding a first weave-filling skim-coat of e.g. WEST 407 filler over the final glass-coat while still tacky would be the most productive approach, with again no sanding until that filler-coat has cured.
> Without multiple sanding-episodes by going ‘wet-in-wet’, there is no loss in epoxy and nor in glass thickness to produce tediously laborious and rather expensive and itchy dust...
>
> On #681 we used chunky plywood-piece-based 2’1/4 x 3” chine-logs inside.
> We glassed, surface-sanded and painted to next-to-final coat both topsides and hull-bottom before assembling them into a hull.
> Once the full-length bottom-panel was completed upside-down and then turned over, the frames and bulkheads were set up to then allow bringing in and fastening the topsides.
> What remained unfinished would be the seam between bottom and topsides on this simple hull, requiring two layers of glass-tape, then filling the weave, sanding all, and finally the paint for an invisible joint without any tape protruding.
> Finally a final coat of paint over that seam.
> Then bottom-paint...
>
> Beyond the already known must-do book projects around the Archive, my intent is to compress the #681 building-experience into a Construction-Manual, useful for this particular construction-approach.
> Had there been adequate budget from the initial project-partners, per initial contract this book would exist by now to support ‘non-boat-builders’ like us here on this project to assembly such a hull.
> As I’ve stated in the previous e-mail, still lots to be done.
>
>
> Finally, in a conversation the other day with WOODENBOAT and BDQ’s Mike O’Brien he shared more episodes of him building boats on the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia.
> As he stated laconically, if something will rot, it will go fastest there in the hot and muggy climate...
> He is absolutely adamant on using serious amounts of epoxy inside and out to significantly extend the life of the hull.
> He was dismayed to find his old BLACK SKIMMER (Design #294) abandoned two+ decades after he had built her, sailed her extensively, and then sold her ‘into good hands’.
> She sat by the side of a road, hatch-covers missing and thus full of rain.
> He felt compelled to examine her up-close and found her to still be sound.
> He concluded that copious amounts of epoxy on her inside as well had protected the structure despite this level of neglect.
> Thus he distinctly disagreed with Phil over ‘letting the inside of the wood breathe by not coating it’...
> As did I. Hence the significant budget line-item on epoxy on this 39-footer as well.
>
> Incidentally, once you are coating the inside as well, gluing-in closed-cell foam-sheets, chunks, or filling with pour-in foam various compartments will allow building a boat with a fairly high degree of ‘Sinking Resistance’ – even in well-ballasted mono-hulls like Seabird ’86.
> As is integrated on quite a few of Phil’s plans from even several decades ago, my #681 powerboat design has 2000+lbs of built-in positive buoyancy after subtracting her 250lbs of batteries, 530lbs of V-6 outboard, 35lbs of DELTA plow, plus chain etc.
> Here therefore an amateur-built 39-footer built to a higher standard of safety than typically available in the market-place !!
> One of the may intriguing options when building in plywood/epoxy/fiberglass and foam.
>
> And thus I may have triggered an extensive discussion on the merits of epoxying what, where etc... and why all this is wrong etc...
>
>
> Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
>
>
>
>
>
>
>