Re: Cartopper
I kept having to wait for the super-glue
to dry... All those 30 second pauses
add up you know!
Brent
to dry... All those 30 second pauses
add up you know!
Brent
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> A whole weekend to build the model? I build my Teal in a weekend,
and
> my Gull in not much more time. Skip the model and build the boat!
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
A whole weekend to build the model? I build my Teal in a weekend, and
my Gull in not much more time. Skip the model and build the boat!
YIBB,
David
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
my Gull in not much more time. Skip the model and build the boat!
YIBB,
David
>Get the plans and then build themC.E.P.
>both as scale models. It took me only
>one weekend to build my Gypsy as
>a scale model. (paper and matchsticks)
>
>Then make your decision.
>
> That modeling experience
>left me so hyped that I "HAD" to
>build it for real. I am now at
>the point where I only have the
>mast and sail left to do. I had
>it out rowing already and it was
>GREAT!
>
>Good Luck!
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
My suggestion is:
Get the plans and then build them
both as scale models. It took me only
one weekend to build my Gypsy as
a scale model. (paper and matchsticks)
Then make your decision.
That modeling experience
left me so hyped that I "HAD" to
build it for real. I am now at
the point where I only have the
mast and sail left to do. I had
it out rowing already and it was
GREAT!
Good Luck!
Get the plans and then build them
both as scale models. It took me only
one weekend to build my Gypsy as
a scale model. (paper and matchsticks)
Then make your decision.
That modeling experience
left me so hyped that I "HAD" to
build it for real. I am now at
the point where I only have the
mast and sail left to do. I had
it out rowing already and it was
GREAT!
Good Luck!
David
Nice to hear - time is not so much of the essence since I'm planning to have
something on the water by next spring. Am also checking into Dave
Carnell's simplified Bolger Featherwind as an option but look forward to
deciding and getting going before another project invades the free space in
the barn...
Greg
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Nice to hear - time is not so much of the essence since I'm planning to have
something on the water by next spring. Am also checking into Dave
Carnell's simplified Bolger Featherwind as an option but look forward to
deciding and getting going before another project invades the free space in
the barn...
Greg
>From: David Ryan <david@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Cartopper
>Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:37:06 -0400
>
> >I'm taking a deep breath before jumping into this... I live in
> >Finland, am an avid paddler (kayak) and am thinking of building a
> >Bolger Cartopper to use with my 4 yr old son. IS this the right
> >boat? What are the realities of construction? Where do I begin? It
> >can't just be a matter of getting the plans, cutting the plywood and
> >gluing it together..
>
>Actually, it *is* just that easy!
>
>Don't worry too much about whether or not the cartopper is the
>perfect boat for you and your son. Chances are once you see how easy,
>fun, and satisfying building your own boat is, you'll be looking for
>your next project before the paint is dry on your first!
>
>YIBB,
>
>David
>
>C.E.P.
>415 W.46th Street
>New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
>Mobile (646) 325-8325
>Office (212) 247-0296
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
I'm about 70% finished with my Cartopper. I can't tell you anything
about its performance yet, but it's been a lot of fun to build. I
have a copy of Harold Payson's Building the New Instant Boats and I
bought a reprint of his Cartopper article that was published in
Woodenboat magazine for $8 US, which I found to be very helpful. If
you try to work from the plans alone it might be a bit mystifying,
but with these resources you should have no trouble, even if you're
not experienced at woodworking. BTW, don't be fooled, there's no
such thing as an "instant" boat and Cartopper is less instant than
some of the others. It could be slapped together pretty quickly but
mine -my spare time being a precious comodity- has taken months.
Good luck with your decision.
Kellan
about its performance yet, but it's been a lot of fun to build. I
have a copy of Harold Payson's Building the New Instant Boats and I
bought a reprint of his Cartopper article that was published in
Woodenboat magazine for $8 US, which I found to be very helpful. If
you try to work from the plans alone it might be a bit mystifying,
but with these resources you should have no trouble, even if you're
not experienced at woodworking. BTW, don't be fooled, there's no
such thing as an "instant" boat and Cartopper is less instant than
some of the others. It could be slapped together pretty quickly but
mine -my spare time being a precious comodity- has taken months.
Good luck with your decision.
Kellan
--- In bolger@y..., "gregoryd61" <gsmiley32@h...> wrote:
> I'm taking a deep breath before jumping into this... I live in
> Finland, am an avid paddler (kayak) and am thinking of building a
> Bolger Cartopper to use with my 4 yr old son. IS this the right
> boat? What are the realities of construction? Where do I begin?
It
> can't just be a matter of getting the plans, cutting the plywood
and
> gluing it together..
--- In bolger@y..., "gregoryd61" <gsmiley32@h...> wrote:
I think this is a fine boat. If your kids are like mine and give you
endless grief about the slightest tippyness (in my solo canoes), then
I would go with something more stable, like the June Bug design.
Seems to be a good rower etc... But much easier to step into, and
out of, and more practical if you need to pull anyone over the
sides. Also faster to build, if not quite as pretty.
> I'm taking a deep breath before jumping into this... I live inIt
> Finland, am an avid paddler (kayak) and am thinking of building a
> Bolger Cartopper to use with my 4 yr old son. IS this the right
> boat? What are the realities of construction? Where do I begin?
> can't just be a matter of getting the plans, cutting the plywoodand
> gluing it together..Basicaly.
I think this is a fine boat. If your kids are like mine and give you
endless grief about the slightest tippyness (in my solo canoes), then
I would go with something more stable, like the June Bug design.
Seems to be a good rower etc... But much easier to step into, and
out of, and more practical if you need to pull anyone over the
sides. Also faster to build, if not quite as pretty.
>I'm taking a deep breath before jumping into this... I live inActually, it *is* just that easy!
>Finland, am an avid paddler (kayak) and am thinking of building a
>Bolger Cartopper to use with my 4 yr old son. IS this the right
>boat? What are the realities of construction? Where do I begin? It
>can't just be a matter of getting the plans, cutting the plywood and
>gluing it together..
Don't worry too much about whether or not the cartopper is the
perfect boat for you and your son. Chances are once you see how easy,
fun, and satisfying building your own boat is, you'll be looking for
your next project before the paint is dry on your first!
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
I'm taking a deep breath before jumping into this... I live in
Finland, am an avid paddler (kayak) and am thinking of building a
Bolger Cartopper to use with my 4 yr old son. IS this the right
boat? What are the realities of construction? Where do I begin? It
can't just be a matter of getting the plans, cutting the plywood and
gluing it together..
Finland, am an avid paddler (kayak) and am thinking of building a
Bolger Cartopper to use with my 4 yr old son. IS this the right
boat? What are the realities of construction? Where do I begin? It
can't just be a matter of getting the plans, cutting the plywood and
gluing it together..
Hi Ken,
I'm building mine for sailing and I've been building most of the
parts up front so everything will assemble pretty quickly. I now
have all of the panels cut and joined, the stem, transom and
centerboard case built, the rudder blade and centerboard shaped and
lead poured in the centerboard and the frames cut and mounted on
uprights. Now I just need to find another chunk of spare time to
start the hull assembly.
Good luck (to both of us). Let us know how it goes.
Kellan
I'm building mine for sailing and I've been building most of the
parts up front so everything will assemble pretty quickly. I now
have all of the panels cut and joined, the stem, transom and
centerboard case built, the rudder blade and centerboard shaped and
lead poured in the centerboard and the frames cut and mounted on
uprights. Now I just need to find another chunk of spare time to
start the hull assembly.
Good luck (to both of us). Let us know how it goes.
Kellan
--- In bolger@y..., "klglo" <klglo@e...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for the transom info. I finished cutting the transom, the
> framing, and the stem. I have the sides attached to the boat now.
> I ran out of time this evening, so attaching the bottom, the stem,
> and the bilge panels will happen later this week. I hope to finish
> my Cartopper within about 2 weeks. She will be used for rowing
> only. Most of the lakes around here (SW PA) are small and only
> allow trolling motors.
>
> I read the earlier posts about using her for a rowboat. I think
> she'll be ok for me. I think I can balance her out for two people
> since none of the sailing parts will be installed. I suspect most
> of the problem with rowing is because the bow-most person should go
> about where the mast mounts on the boat. I learned from the
earlier
> discussions that she may be too wide for efficient paddling. I am
> not planning on racing, only on putting around and maybe a little
> fishing.
>
> I chose Cartopper because the study sheet said she could be used
for
> rowing, sailing, and power (in that order). She was also small
> enough to fit my utility trailer (can't cartop with a convertible)
> and I liked her looks.
>
> That's all for now,
>
> Ken
Hi all,
Thanks for the transom info. I finished cutting the transom, the
framing, and the stem. I have the sides attached to the boat now.
I ran out of time this evening, so attaching the bottom, the stem,
and the bilge panels will happen later this week. I hope to finish
my Cartopper within about 2 weeks. She will be used for rowing
only. Most of the lakes around here (SW PA) are small and only
allow trolling motors.
I read the earlier posts about using her for a rowboat. I think
she'll be ok for me. I think I can balance her out for two people
since none of the sailing parts will be installed. I suspect most
of the problem with rowing is because the bow-most person should go
about where the mast mounts on the boat. I learned from the earlier
discussions that she may be too wide for efficient paddling. I am
not planning on racing, only on putting around and maybe a little
fishing.
I chose Cartopper because the study sheet said she could be used for
rowing, sailing, and power (in that order). She was also small
enough to fit my utility trailer (can't cartop with a convertible)
and I liked her looks.
That's all for now,
Ken
Thanks for the transom info. I finished cutting the transom, the
framing, and the stem. I have the sides attached to the boat now.
I ran out of time this evening, so attaching the bottom, the stem,
and the bilge panels will happen later this week. I hope to finish
my Cartopper within about 2 weeks. She will be used for rowing
only. Most of the lakes around here (SW PA) are small and only
allow trolling motors.
I read the earlier posts about using her for a rowboat. I think
she'll be ok for me. I think I can balance her out for two people
since none of the sailing parts will be installed. I suspect most
of the problem with rowing is because the bow-most person should go
about where the mast mounts on the boat. I learned from the earlier
discussions that she may be too wide for efficient paddling. I am
not planning on racing, only on putting around and maybe a little
fishing.
I chose Cartopper because the study sheet said she could be used for
rowing, sailing, and power (in that order). She was also small
enough to fit my utility trailer (can't cartop with a convertible)
and I liked her looks.
That's all for now,
Ken
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
of real quantity today, sooner or later someone's going to hire a
lawyer who will demand that you explain, in court, why you market a
small boat that is GOING to swamp, eventually, in the hands of the
average Joe, and that isn't easy to unswamp. (It took my brother-in-
law, a more-or-less experienced catamaran sailer, about 20 minutes to
swamp his on launching day).
There is a higher expectation of safety in the general public then
there used to be, and it's just a plain fact of life that small boat
manufacturers have to live with. But Payson doesn't sell to the
general public, he sells to homebuilders, who are taking a fair
amount of risk upon themselves just because they are building, and
not buying something on a whim with any expectation that it is a
tried and true and perfectly safe product.
Don't get me wrong. I love my Cartoppers. But they have their
limitations. They're compromise boats meant to be ...
duty" means the capability of being useful more or less continously,
as opposed to "light duty" which does not have that capability.
And "light" by itself, in this context, means she can be picked up
and put on a car. Your average home vacuum cleaner may be useful, but
it's not going to last long for vacuuming carpets in say, the
Pentagon. When I say Cartopper's a utility craft I mean that she has
many uses. You can't use a Laser for anything but sailing, maybe
paddling, and generally only solo. Not Cartopper, which you can sail,
row, motor, tow, sleep in, go camp cruising in, fish from, daysail,
take kids in, haul stores in, and use as shelter from an afternoon
shower on the beach. That is a utility craft. But you can't expect
her to do all that or portions thereof for 24 hours a day, every day,
in all weather, and expect her to last more than a few years, if that.
place that sells decent marine ply, and I live in the San Francisco
Bay area. But Home Depot is 10 minutes away, and there's decent Doug
Fir available at a hardware store five minutes away.
not just use 3/4" or 1" ply and forget the framing. And the answer is
weight. Plywood is heavy. Cartopper is meant to be light--and easy to
build.
much rocker and too narrow a bottom, not to mention nearly no stern
bearing, for doing anything other than pushing water and sinking in
her own hole unless she's way overpowered. WAY overpowered. You can
get nearly anything to plane with horsepower and determination, but
why not just use a chainsaw if you want to break her up? At least
you'll stay dry.
John
> --- In bolger@y..., "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:wrote:
> > --- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...>
> The plans building business is an outgrowth of the boatbuildingI sail my Cartoppers. If you're building a sailing craft in any kind
> business. He does a bunch of stuff like a lot of folks on the
> coast. I don't know what he does today, but he sure has sold some
> boats.
of real quantity today, sooner or later someone's going to hire a
lawyer who will demand that you explain, in court, why you market a
small boat that is GOING to swamp, eventually, in the hands of the
average Joe, and that isn't easy to unswamp. (It took my brother-in-
law, a more-or-less experienced catamaran sailer, about 20 minutes to
swamp his on launching day).
There is a higher expectation of safety in the general public then
there used to be, and it's just a plain fact of life that small boat
manufacturers have to live with. But Payson doesn't sell to the
general public, he sells to homebuilders, who are taking a fair
amount of risk upon themselves just because they are building, and
not buying something on a whim with any expectation that it is a
tried and true and perfectly safe product.
Don't get me wrong. I love my Cartoppers. But they have their
limitations. They're compromise boats meant to be ...
> She is a light, and light duty, utilityAh, I beg to differ. Having "utility" means being useful. "Heavy
> > craft
>
> That must be next to "military inteligence" in the oxymoron listing
> of the dictionary.
duty" means the capability of being useful more or less continously,
as opposed to "light duty" which does not have that capability.
And "light" by itself, in this context, means she can be picked up
and put on a car. Your average home vacuum cleaner may be useful, but
it's not going to last long for vacuuming carpets in say, the
Pentagon. When I say Cartopper's a utility craft I mean that she has
many uses. You can't use a Laser for anything but sailing, maybe
paddling, and generally only solo. Not Cartopper, which you can sail,
row, motor, tow, sleep in, go camp cruising in, fish from, daysail,
take kids in, haul stores in, and use as shelter from an afternoon
shower on the beach. That is a utility craft. But you can't expect
her to do all that or portions thereof for 24 hours a day, every day,
in all weather, and expect her to last more than a few years, if that.
> > a lot of the places that sell marine ply sell core.Like I say, "readily available" I have to travel 35 miles to find a
place that sells decent marine ply, and I live in the San Francisco
Bay area. But Home Depot is 10 minutes away, and there's decent Doug
Fir available at a hardware store five minutes away.
> Also let me add, for a designer who puts the chine logs on theThis statement above I do not understand, unless you're asking why
> outside because the framing inside is a cleaning problem, I have
> never understood why we had to have all that framing on the transom.
>
not just use 3/4" or 1" ply and forget the framing. And the answer is
weight. Plywood is heavy. Cartopper is meant to be light--and easy to
build.
> This was the same redoubtible Min Kota that "nearly planed her",you
> don't need to be an engineer to know what all those cracking sounds"Nearly planed her"???? Dude!, I rest my case. Cartopper has too
> mean...
>
much rocker and too narrow a bottom, not to mention nearly no stern
bearing, for doing anything other than pushing water and sinking in
her own hole unless she's way overpowered. WAY overpowered. You can
get nearly anything to plane with horsepower and determination, but
why not just use a chainsaw if you want to break her up? At least
you'll stay dry.
John
Forgive my editing, but it was getting kinda long. If the problem is
cracking at the t intersection, then, since this is a tack and tape
boat already, just glass from a few inches below the intersection to
the top of the transom. I have done some vacuum bagging and I think it
is a distraction here. Especially if you haven't done it already or
have sensitive ears, a loud vacuum cleaner, and no quiet vacuum pump.
In MAIB, which has the pictures I'm going by, BOlger recommends only
up to 2hp.
I think it would be real nice if there was a version of Cartopper
which would row well with 2 people. A foot and a half more length
would be cool, too. Sometimes I think of taking Sweet Pea, stripping
out the interior, snipping stern and changing to a transom, and
changing to dagger or centerboard. Maybe I could use a centerboard
narrow enough to sit over by paying a lot of attention to the foil and
using a thick section.
cracking at the t intersection, then, since this is a tack and tape
boat already, just glass from a few inches below the intersection to
the top of the transom. I have done some vacuum bagging and I think it
is a distraction here. Especially if you haven't done it already or
have sensitive ears, a loud vacuum cleaner, and no quiet vacuum pump.
In MAIB, which has the pictures I'm going by, BOlger recommends only
up to 2hp.
I think it would be real nice if there was a version of Cartopper
which would row well with 2 people. A foot and a half more length
would be cool, too. Sometimes I think of taking Sweet Pea, stripping
out the interior, snipping stern and changing to a transom, and
changing to dagger or centerboard. Maybe I could use a centerboard
narrow enough to sit over by paying a lot of attention to the foil and
using a thick section.
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> > --- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Obviously we're just going around and around here, but...
>
> Right but so far its been a pleasure.
>
>
> >
> > > > The transom can just be done up out of 1/8"
> > > doorskins over 1/2" core
>
> > >
snip>> We're getting outside
> the
> > realm of an easily built from handy materials with common tools by
> > enthusiastic but not necessarilly overly-handy homebuilders kind
of
> > concept here.
>
> Not really,
>
> You presumably have a vaccum cleaner and some plastic, a short piece
> of hose, and some caulking. That is all you need. either you want
> to be bothered buying core or not, but a lot of the places that sell
> marine ply sell core. snip
> > > >Just ask yourself how you would
> > > break [the transom] appart over your knee, the motor figured it
> out
> > right off.
> >
snip
> The basic problem is where the framing butts together just below the
> top. That T junction is pretty easily broken.
--- In bolger@y..., "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
You presumably have a vaccum cleaner and some plastic, a short piece
of hose, and some caulking. That is all you need. either you want
to be bothered buying core or not, but a lot of the places that sell
marine ply sell core. You can have it curved if you want, but no fair
complaining if I mention you will need more high tech gear like a few
pieces of scrap wood and a few bricks...
business. He does a bunch of stuff like a lot of folks on the
coast. I don't know what he does today, but he sure has sold some
boats.
top. That T junction is pretty easily broken. I work on two
assumptions: If they built it like that it probably works most of
the time; If it broke the first few times I used it, I trust my own
experience.
This was the same redoubtible Min Kota that "nearly planed her", as
in previous thread that got me in trouble for near exageration. And
it isn't as if the motor is now at the bottom of a lake, But you
don't need to be an engineer to know what all those cracking sounds
mean...
She is a light, and light duty, utility
of the dictionary.
Also let me add, for a designer who puts the chine logs on the
outside because the framing inside is a cleaning problem, I have
never understood why we had to have all that framing on the transom.
Equaly, it ain't cheap any more. It could be, but if you use marine
grade materials like DFir, and good but not marine grade 1/4 ply, vs
doorskins and core, its a wash, or favours the core, and that is
before you get to the labour collumn.
> --- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:Right but so far its been a pleasure.
>
> Obviously we're just going around and around here, but...
>the
> > > The transom can just be done up out of 1/8"
> > doorskins over 1/2" core
> >
> Coreing, vacuuming bagging--why not just lay an arc in the transom
> while you're at it to stiffen it even more. We're getting outside
> realm of an easily built from handy materials with common tools byNot really,
> enthusiastic but not necessarilly overly-handy homebuilders kind of
> concept here.
You presumably have a vaccum cleaner and some plastic, a short piece
of hose, and some caulking. That is all you need. either you want
to be bothered buying core or not, but a lot of the places that sell
marine ply sell core. You can have it curved if you want, but no fair
complaining if I mention you will need more high tech gear like a few
pieces of scrap wood and a few bricks...
> >so
> I far as I know Payson doesn't build them for sale. He sells plans
> others can build.The plans building business is an outgrowth of the boatbuilding
business. He does a bunch of stuff like a lot of folks on the
coast. I don't know what he does today, but he sure has sold some
boats.
> > >Just ask yourself how you wouldout
> > break [the transom] appart over your knee, the motor figured it
> right off.no
>
> Okay, so I go and try to break the transom over my knee. Unframed,
> sweat. Framed with 3/4" doug fir, makeing, including the 1/4" ply,an
> inch of wood that needs to bend....The basic problem is where the framing butts together just below the
> Also, the transom on the boat is stronger than the transom on your
> knee. The bottom panel adds significantly to its strength in
> resisting the ungentle caress of motor and propeller.
top. That T junction is pretty easily broken. I work on two
assumptions: If they built it like that it probably works most of
the time; If it broke the first few times I used it, I trust my own
experience.
>If
> And what kind of motor are you putting on the girl that you're
> worried about the transom's strength? Because she ain't no Diablo.
This was the same redoubtible Min Kota that "nearly planed her", as
in previous thread that got me in trouble for near exageration. And
it isn't as if the motor is now at the bottom of a lake, But you
don't need to be an engineer to know what all those cracking sounds
mean...
She is a light, and light duty, utility
> craftThat must be next to "military inteligence" in the oxymoron listing
of the dictionary.
Also let me add, for a designer who puts the chine logs on the
outside because the framing inside is a cleaning problem, I have
never understood why we had to have all that framing on the transom.
Equaly, it ain't cheap any more. It could be, but if you use marine
grade materials like DFir, and good but not marine grade 1/4 ply, vs
doorskins and core, its a wash, or favours the core, and that is
before you get to the labour collumn.
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
Obviously we're just going around and around here, but...
> > The transom can just be done up out of 1/8"
> doorskins over 1/2" core
> Another way would be to just put on some plywood webs, like they do
> on air frames.
>
Coreing, vacuuming bagging--why not just lay an arc in the transom
while you're at it to stiffen it even more. We're getting outside the
realm of an easily built from handy materials with common tools by
enthusiastic but not necessarilly overly-handy homebuilders kind of
concept here.
>
> Payson will no doubt be devastated that you don't see these boats
as
> having any commercial pottential...
>
I far as I know Payson doesn't build them for sale. He sells plans so
others can build. There is a guy offering Cartoppers for sale on the
web, modified with a movable thwart for more comfortable rowing, but
his site says he's only built three so far.
> >Just ask yourself how you would
> break [the transom] appart over your knee, the motor figured it out
right off.
Okay, so I go and try to break the transom over my knee. Unframed, no
sweat. Framed with 3/4" doug fir, makeing, including the 1/4" ply, an
inch of wood that needs to bend....
Also, the transom on the boat is stronger than the transom on your
knee. The bottom panel adds significantly to its strength in
resisting the ungentle caress of motor and propeller.
And what kind of motor are you putting on the girl that you're
worried about the transom's strength? Because she ain't no Diablo. If
you start pushing Cartopper it's not just the transom that'll want to
fail, the whole hull will start into serious oilcanning and the
slender frames will work off the side and blige panels, effectively
trashing the entire boat. She is a light, and light duty, utility
craft, and her design, construction method and scantlings schedule
reflects that.
John
I certainly agree that you don't see it is a problem. But you don't
use a motor (?)
Payson will no doubt be devastated that you don't see these boats as
having any commercial pottential...
tie the
break it appart over your knee, the motor figured it out right off.
Even biscuit would help.
whatever. When I made mine, I bagged all the ply out of doorskins as
some others around here have. This wasn't to save money, but to use
up epoxy and doorskins. The transom can just be done up out of 1/8"
doorskins over 1/2" core (I was using up some balsa core also).
Depending on whether you have to mill the lumber to size, core is
probably faster. At the time it was about 2 dollars canadian a
square foot. As mentioned I have also just used 3/4" marine ply, but
I don't usualy have that around, and getting it would cost way more
than core, in fact just driving over to get it would also be more
work. 3/4" balsa pannels are stronger also, and weigh the same as
3/8" ply. I have to tell you I really resisted core, but if you
build something where the designer say "though shall..." even I
couldn't resist for ever. Even the "I make my own coffee tables"
crowd is into it.
Another way would be to just put on some plywood webs, like they do
on air frames.
You have to go to some real
use a motor (?)
Payson will no doubt be devastated that you don't see these boats as
having any commercial pottential...
tie the
> top and bottom frames together, I don't see how under anyIn certain rotational forces it is, Just ask yourself how you would
> circumstance the ply alone is carrying the thrust.
break it appart over your knee, the motor figured it out right off.
Even biscuit would help.
>be
> Nor do I see, lacking some real high-tech materials or cost/time
> intensive design and construction techniques, that the frame could
> built stronger without adding weight.That's an easy one, ply on both sides of core, whether lumber or
whatever. When I made mine, I bagged all the ply out of doorskins as
some others around here have. This wasn't to save money, but to use
up epoxy and doorskins. The transom can just be done up out of 1/8"
doorskins over 1/2" core (I was using up some balsa core also).
Depending on whether you have to mill the lumber to size, core is
probably faster. At the time it was about 2 dollars canadian a
square foot. As mentioned I have also just used 3/4" marine ply, but
I don't usualy have that around, and getting it would cost way more
than core, in fact just driving over to get it would also be more
work. 3/4" balsa pannels are stronger also, and weigh the same as
3/8" ply. I have to tell you I really resisted core, but if you
build something where the designer say "though shall..." even I
couldn't resist for ever. Even the "I make my own coffee tables"
crowd is into it.
Another way would be to just put on some plywood webs, like they do
on air frames.
You have to go to some real
> high-tech stuff to get a higher strength-to-weight ratio than goodbest
> old-fasioned wood--especially doug fir, which enjoys nearly the
> strength/weight ratio of any wood.
>
>
> John
>
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
manufacture. If she were she'd be a TOTALLY different boat, in nearly
every respect.
If I were manufacturering her I wouldn't worry about the transom so
much as capzise. She wants to turn turtle when swamped and is very
difficult to right and bale without a beach or another boat to help.
The only way to do it is to right her such that you end up INSIDE the
boat, then lie down to float your body as much as possible and bale
while flat on your back, hoping for the best. It can be done.
But, with a nice motor on your beefed up transom, and lacking the
flotation she's not designed to carry, if you swamped her she'd tend
to go verticle, stem up, and the only hope for self-recovery then
would be to deep-six the motor.
As I see it the real strength of the transom lies in the 3/4"
framing, not in the ply. You could go for 1/8" ply and it would still
be nearly as strong as it it with 1/4", it just wouldn't have the
puncture resistance that's nice to have for long-term peace of mind.
If you must beef it up, fatten up the framing, because adding another
1/8" to the ply will make little difference in strength. Especially
with a nice fat motorboard, which, among other things, helps tie the
top and bottom frames together, I don't see how under any
circumstance the ply alone is carrying the thrust.
Nor do I see, lacking some real high-tech materials or cost/time
intensive design and construction techniques, that the frame could be
built stronger without adding weight. You have to go to some real
high-tech stuff to get a higher strength-to-weight ratio than good
old-fasioned wood--especially doug fir, which enjoys nearly the best
strength/weight ratio of any wood.
John
>I still have to say 1/4" is enough. Cartopper is not meant for
manufacture. If she were she'd be a TOTALLY different boat, in nearly
every respect.
If I were manufacturering her I wouldn't worry about the transom so
much as capzise. She wants to turn turtle when swamped and is very
difficult to right and bale without a beach or another boat to help.
The only way to do it is to right her such that you end up INSIDE the
boat, then lie down to float your body as much as possible and bale
while flat on your back, hoping for the best. It can be done.
But, with a nice motor on your beefed up transom, and lacking the
flotation she's not designed to carry, if you swamped her she'd tend
to go verticle, stem up, and the only hope for self-recovery then
would be to deep-six the motor.
As I see it the real strength of the transom lies in the 3/4"
framing, not in the ply. You could go for 1/8" ply and it would still
be nearly as strong as it it with 1/4", it just wouldn't have the
puncture resistance that's nice to have for long-term peace of mind.
If you must beef it up, fatten up the framing, because adding another
1/8" to the ply will make little difference in strength. Especially
with a nice fat motorboard, which, among other things, helps tie the
top and bottom frames together, I don't see how under any
circumstance the ply alone is carrying the thrust.
Nor do I see, lacking some real high-tech materials or cost/time
intensive design and construction techniques, that the frame could be
built stronger without adding weight. You have to go to some real
high-tech stuff to get a higher strength-to-weight ratio than good
old-fasioned wood--especially doug fir, which enjoys nearly the best
strength/weight ratio of any wood.
John
> >> One use is enough. The fact there isn't anything backing up theply
> framing in one direction means that it is only as strong as 1/4"
> in certain thrust situations, I don't know of anyone who thinksthat
> is strong enough. It is like a lot of amateur built stuff, whocares
> since one can fix it oneself. But having made these boats for (EPSthat
> not cartopers) sale, where one call back wreaks you margin, not to
> mention your reputation, this is about the only part of the boat
> I can't sleep at night over. Since a fix can be lighter than the
> original, I don't see the problem. But equaly I agree it can make
> sense to build as drawn, hourses for courses.
>
>
>
>
--- In bolger@y..., "dagon_gsl" <dagon_gsl@y...> wrote:
I built mine, is that the 1/4" transom is cut oversize, sized to the
forward face of the 3/4" framing. So it is perfectly possible to
frame it up full size, then cut the bevel after the framing is
attached, as long as in beveling it the forward face of the frames
are left uncut.
John
> But whatever you do, don't attach unbevelled framing to anunbevelled
> transom panel with the intention of bevelling the whole thing inone
> fell swoop or you'll end up with less transom than you wanted.I'm not sure what you mean here. My reading of the plans, and the way
I built mine, is that the 1/4" transom is cut oversize, sized to the
forward face of the 3/4" framing. So it is perfectly possible to
frame it up full size, then cut the bevel after the framing is
attached, as long as in beveling it the forward face of the frames
are left uncut.
John
But whatever you do, don't attach unbevelled framing to an unbevelled
transom panel with the intention of bevelling the whole thing in one
fell swoop or you'll end up with less transom than you wanted. Cut
the framing pieces independently. I found an angle guage to be
indespensible for assembling the transom frame. The Cartopper
transom it's tricky if you've never built one. I speak from
experience - I totally screwed up my first attempt and had to start
over (make sure you overlap the frames just as shown on the diagram
if you want to cut some of them to length after epoxying them in
place).
On the advice of a couple of previous Cartopper builders I left the
top edge of my transom uncut until after assembly (which will happen
in the very near future). Once I have all the panels assembled I'll
cut and plane it to get a good fit to the edges of the side panels
and a good looking top bevel.
I'm also uncertain about how I want to shape the top surface of the
transom. I'm toying with cutting a skulling notch or mounting a
yuloh pivot. I doubt I'll ever use an outboard on this boat but I
want to keep my options open. Maybe an off-center skulling notch
next to the outboard notch?.
Kellan
transom panel with the intention of bevelling the whole thing in one
fell swoop or you'll end up with less transom than you wanted. Cut
the framing pieces independently. I found an angle guage to be
indespensible for assembling the transom frame. The Cartopper
transom it's tricky if you've never built one. I speak from
experience - I totally screwed up my first attempt and had to start
over (make sure you overlap the frames just as shown on the diagram
if you want to cut some of them to length after epoxying them in
place).
On the advice of a couple of previous Cartopper builders I left the
top edge of my transom uncut until after assembly (which will happen
in the very near future). Once I have all the panels assembled I'll
cut and plane it to get a good fit to the edges of the side panels
and a good looking top bevel.
I'm also uncertain about how I want to shape the top surface of the
transom. I'm toying with cutting a skulling notch or mounting a
yuloh pivot. I doubt I'll ever use an outboard on this boat but I
want to keep my options open. Maybe an off-center skulling notch
next to the outboard notch?.
Kellan
--- In bolger@y..., "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
forward!).
> Or 2) Cut the transom panel per plans, rough out your framing
> overlong and bevel the outboard edges of the roughed out frames on
a
> tablesaw to the angle detailed on the plans (different for side and
> bilge panels, as I recall). Crosscut your frames to length, laying
> them out out and glueing them up such that the wide (forward) face
of
> the frames line up square with the edge of the transom panel...
>enough.
> By the way, I disagree that Cartopper's transom is not strong
> She's not meant for continous use with a motor.One use is enough. The fact there isn't anything backing up the
framing in one direction means that it is only as strong as 1/4" ply
in certain thrust situations, I don't know of anyone who thinks that
is strong enough. It is like a lot of amateur built stuff, who cares
since one can fix it oneself. But having made these boats for (EPS
not cartopers) sale, where one call back wreaks you margin, not to
mention your reputation, this is about the only part of the boat that
I can't sleep at night over. Since a fix can be lighter than the
original, I don't see the problem. But equaly I agree it can make
sense to build as drawn, hourses for courses.
She's a light boat
> meant for cartopping, towing, sailing, rowing, heaving up on docks,your
> beaches, seawalls and cars without winches or he-men, and, the
> occasional use of a very small outboard for getting to and from
> bigger moored boat. Used thusly, no beefing up is needed, wanted,or
> required. I do have a wide motor board on mine, though I've never
> used it as intended.
--- In bolger@y..., "klglo" <klglo@e...> wrote:
larger than it will actually end up to be on the finished boat. The
the hull widens significantly from the transom panel forward, and the
transom framing, which on Cartopper goes inboard, needs to be as wide
as the boat is at the framing's fowardmost face(minus the width of
the 1/4" side and bilge panels).
In other words, the hull is narrowest at the very stern, and grows
quickly wider, and the framing of the transom panel has to reflect
this. Bolger calls for cutting the transom panel to the dimensions
the transom frame needs to be at its most forward point, then
beveling the edges of the assembly to the angle the side, bilge and
bottom panels meet the transom at, such that the most wood is taken
away from the aft face of the transom panel, and none is taken away
from the foward face of the transom framing. There are bevel angles
on the plans.
My experience building two of them is that the transom is the most
difficult pure woodworking part of the operation, especially if you
want clean joints and bevel the inside edge of the bottom frame so
water can't collect in what would otherwise be the trough formed by
the angle between the top of the bottom frame and the transom panel
when the boat is upright. (The transom is angled aft of verticle.)(I
cut all the tramsom frames to have parallel sides, which is probably
overkill, and certainly made life harder, even if it does look real
nice).
There are at least two ways to get the bevel. 1) frame it all up and
glue it full size, and then bevel as best you can with jigsaw,
handplane or whatever else you can come up with (wide part forward!).
Or 2) Cut the transom panel per plans, rough out your framing
overlong and bevel the outboard edges of the roughed out frames on a
tablesaw to the angle detailed on the plans (different for side and
bilge panels, as I recall). Crosscut your frames to length, laying
them out out and glueing them up such that the wide (forward) face of
the frames line up square with the edge of the transom panel. In
other words, the frame ends up going on the transom panel in the
exact same place it would have gone even if you hadn't beveled the
outboard edges. Now that you have, the panel will overlap the aft
face of the frames, while still being square with the sharp outboard
edge of the forward face of the frames). Now fasten and glue, cut
down the overlapping portion of the transom panel to match the bevel
of the framing, and you're done. You will be surprised how much
smaller the aft face of the finished transom is, next to the transom
you initially cut out.
I found the hardest part to be getting exact lengths and angles on
the frame piece crosscuts. The beveling itself was easy and exact on
the tablesaw.
By the way, I disagree that Cartopper's transom is not strong enough.
She's not meant for continous use with a motor. She's a light boat
meant for cartopping, towing, sailing, rowing, heaving up on docks,
beaches, seawalls and cars without winches or he-men, and, the
occasional use of a very small outboard for getting to and from your
bigger moored boat. Used thusly, no beefing up is needed, wanted, or
required. I do have a wide motor board on mine, though I've never
used it as intended.
Altogether I've found my Cartoppers to be reasonably tough little
boats. One thing. Do not forget (like some among us, such as me) to
glass the hull/frame joints--and use generous fillets. Epoxy alone
will not do the job.
Hope this helped.
John
PS
A nice sailing shot of one of my boats is in the group files,
somewhere....
Hi guys,
>I'm not sure what the problem is, but let me dive in anyway. Thetransom panel, cut out of 1/4" ply, is sized on the plans to be
larger than it will actually end up to be on the finished boat. The
the hull widens significantly from the transom panel forward, and the
transom framing, which on Cartopper goes inboard, needs to be as wide
as the boat is at the framing's fowardmost face(minus the width of
the 1/4" side and bilge panels).
In other words, the hull is narrowest at the very stern, and grows
quickly wider, and the framing of the transom panel has to reflect
this. Bolger calls for cutting the transom panel to the dimensions
the transom frame needs to be at its most forward point, then
beveling the edges of the assembly to the angle the side, bilge and
bottom panels meet the transom at, such that the most wood is taken
away from the aft face of the transom panel, and none is taken away
from the foward face of the transom framing. There are bevel angles
on the plans.
My experience building two of them is that the transom is the most
difficult pure woodworking part of the operation, especially if you
want clean joints and bevel the inside edge of the bottom frame so
water can't collect in what would otherwise be the trough formed by
the angle between the top of the bottom frame and the transom panel
when the boat is upright. (The transom is angled aft of verticle.)(I
cut all the tramsom frames to have parallel sides, which is probably
overkill, and certainly made life harder, even if it does look real
nice).
There are at least two ways to get the bevel. 1) frame it all up and
glue it full size, and then bevel as best you can with jigsaw,
handplane or whatever else you can come up with (wide part forward!).
Or 2) Cut the transom panel per plans, rough out your framing
overlong and bevel the outboard edges of the roughed out frames on a
tablesaw to the angle detailed on the plans (different for side and
bilge panels, as I recall). Crosscut your frames to length, laying
them out out and glueing them up such that the wide (forward) face of
the frames line up square with the edge of the transom panel. In
other words, the frame ends up going on the transom panel in the
exact same place it would have gone even if you hadn't beveled the
outboard edges. Now that you have, the panel will overlap the aft
face of the frames, while still being square with the sharp outboard
edge of the forward face of the frames). Now fasten and glue, cut
down the overlapping portion of the transom panel to match the bevel
of the framing, and you're done. You will be surprised how much
smaller the aft face of the finished transom is, next to the transom
you initially cut out.
I found the hardest part to be getting exact lengths and angles on
the frame piece crosscuts. The beveling itself was easy and exact on
the tablesaw.
By the way, I disagree that Cartopper's transom is not strong enough.
She's not meant for continous use with a motor. She's a light boat
meant for cartopping, towing, sailing, rowing, heaving up on docks,
beaches, seawalls and cars without winches or he-men, and, the
occasional use of a very small outboard for getting to and from your
bigger moored boat. Used thusly, no beefing up is needed, wanted, or
required. I do have a wide motor board on mine, though I've never
used it as intended.
Altogether I've found my Cartoppers to be reasonably tough little
boats. One thing. Do not forget (like some among us, such as me) to
glass the hull/frame joints--and use generous fillets. Epoxy alone
will not do the job.
Hope this helped.
John
PS
A nice sailing shot of one of my boats is in the group files,
somewhere....
Hi guys,
>transom
> I'm building a Cartopper. I have the bottom, the bilge panels, and
> the sides cut out. I'm currently working on the transom and I'm
> having a little difficulty with the lay-out. The top of the
> bows towards the center from each side and I can't see how this isthe
> laid out. Any ideas? Are there any tricks to the transom or to
> frame members I should know about?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
--- In bolger@y..., "klglo" <klglo@e...> wrote:
want to mount an engine on this boat, then you don't need the flat
area, and it becomes a simple mater of making it to the maximum
dimension required, then attaching the side panel to the lowest point
on the transom, and striking a curve to the highest dimension, across
the whole back. This with or without a cut-out for a sweep was how
row boat transoms where configured before the stinkbox. Should you
later decide you are going to mount a motor, just cut in the flat,
and take advantage of the opportunity to gob on some roving.
Alternatively if you do want the flat, you can proceed in the same
maner, just make a secondary parallel line at the 15 1/8" mark. When
you have your curve, as above, you just remove the amount shown in
the plan, at that 15 1/8" level.
As to the plans, my best guess is that there are four dimensions:
Top of curve, top of the panel inboard, top of the panel outboard,
bottom of the motor mount.
I have never been perfectly happy with Bolger's transoms, they aren't
all that strong. I prefer them made out of 3/4 ply, or 1/2" core
between two layers of doorskins.
Good luck
> Hi guys,transom
>
> I'm building a Cartopper. I have the bottom, the bilge panels, and
> the sides cut out. I'm currently working on the transom and I'm
> having a little difficulty with the lay-out. The top of the
> bows towards the center from each side and I can't see how this isthe
> laid out. Any ideas? Are there any tricks to the transom or to
> frame members I should know about?I don't quite get it either. One way to look at it is if you don't
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
want to mount an engine on this boat, then you don't need the flat
area, and it becomes a simple mater of making it to the maximum
dimension required, then attaching the side panel to the lowest point
on the transom, and striking a curve to the highest dimension, across
the whole back. This with or without a cut-out for a sweep was how
row boat transoms where configured before the stinkbox. Should you
later decide you are going to mount a motor, just cut in the flat,
and take advantage of the opportunity to gob on some roving.
Alternatively if you do want the flat, you can proceed in the same
maner, just make a secondary parallel line at the 15 1/8" mark. When
you have your curve, as above, you just remove the amount shown in
the plan, at that 15 1/8" level.
As to the plans, my best guess is that there are four dimensions:
Top of curve, top of the panel inboard, top of the panel outboard,
bottom of the motor mount.
I have never been perfectly happy with Bolger's transoms, they aren't
all that strong. I prefer them made out of 3/4 ply, or 1/2" core
between two layers of doorskins.
Good luck
Hi guys,
I'm building a Cartopper. I have the bottom, the bilge panels, and
the sides cut out. I'm currently working on the transom and I'm
having a little difficulty with the lay-out. The top of the transom
bows towards the center from each side and I can't see how this is
laid out. Any ideas? Are there any tricks to the transom or to the
frame members I should know about?
Thanks,
Ken
I'm building a Cartopper. I have the bottom, the bilge panels, and
the sides cut out. I'm currently working on the transom and I'm
having a little difficulty with the lay-out. The top of the transom
bows towards the center from each side and I can't see how this is
laid out. Any ideas? Are there any tricks to the transom or to the
frame members I should know about?
Thanks,
Ken
I think of it more as rowing one, sailing two. It has just a little
stool seat for rowing, when sailed it is sprawl on the bottom. John, aka
jboatguy, who used to be on this group built two and had some good
pictures of it sailing two teenagers, I lost the web site. By all
accounts it is a very seaworthy small design, he sailed his in an area
where there is lots of wind and waves, and reported it handled the
conditions well. Just looking at the unfinished hulls in the shop I
would say that the Cartopper should handle rougher water than the larger
Gypsy.
HJ
futabachan wrote:
stool seat for rowing, when sailed it is sprawl on the bottom. John, aka
jboatguy, who used to be on this group built two and had some good
pictures of it sailing two teenagers, I lost the web site. By all
accounts it is a very seaworthy small design, he sailed his in an area
where there is lots of wind and waves, and reported it handled the
conditions well. Just looking at the unfinished hulls in the shop I
would say that the Cartopper should handle rougher water than the larger
Gypsy.
HJ
futabachan wrote:
>
> > I'd still like to know how many people and how many pounds Cartopper
> > can carry.
>
> 3 people; not sure how many pounds. I'll let you know once my
> plans arrive.
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>
klglo wrote:
was in the same situation as you--no one in central Missouri carried
marine ply. I glassed the bottom and chines with a lightweight mat and
polyester resin. I used her for fishing on the area lakes for a couple
of years and sold her when I moved from the area. I think AC exterior
would be fine.
Harold
> I considered Teal, but had to rule her out because her spec.'s callI built a Teal some years ago using AC exterior and it worked fine. I
> out marine plywood and no one in my area (SW Pa) carries it.
> Cartopper can be built with AC plywood.
was in the same situation as you--no one in central Missouri carried
marine ply. I glassed the bottom and chines with a lightweight mat and
polyester resin. I used her for fishing on the area lakes for a couple
of years and sold her when I moved from the area. I think AC exterior
would be fine.
Harold
Ken, you can have a Teal from cheaper plywood. That might be
a better match than throwing all that resin at some lesser sheets.
A flatty gets by on a shorter trailer than itself. If the
stern hangs out too far, it's been suggested moving a
portable light bracket to the boat. Then they're never wet.
And a very light boat won't change the tongue weight much.
This explains a lot.
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0115/index.html#Trailering
Plywood Boats
May be that if you think you can trail a 12' boat with what
you have, you can build something up to 14' and be okay.
Mark
klglo wrote:
a better match than throwing all that resin at some lesser sheets.
A flatty gets by on a shorter trailer than itself. If the
stern hangs out too far, it's been suggested moving a
portable light bracket to the boat. Then they're never wet.
And a very light boat won't change the tongue weight much.
This explains a lot.
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/0115/index.html#Trailering
Plywood Boats
May be that if you think you can trail a 12' boat with what
you have, you can build something up to 14' and be okay.
Mark
klglo wrote:
>
> Thanks for the advise. I'm still interested in Cartopper
> because it
> is about the largest boat that will fit my trailer. I
> have a
> Tracker convertible, so I can't put a boat on the roof. I
>
> considered Teal, but had to rule her out because her
> spec.'s call
> out marine plywood and no one in my area (SW Pa) carries
> it.
> Cartopper can be built with AC plywood. I saw the other
> posts about
> Crystal, but am not sure I want to spend $75.00 for
> plans. Any
> other suggestions?
>
> I'd still like to know how many people and how many pounds
> Cartopper
> can carry.
>
> Ken
>
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>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and
> punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip
> all you like
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> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>
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> of Service.
> I'd still like to know how many people and how many pounds Cartopper3 people; not sure how many pounds. I'll let you know once my
> can carry.
plans arrive.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Thanks for the advise. I'm still interested in Cartopper because it
is about the largest boat that will fit my trailer. I have a
Tracker convertible, so I can't put a boat on the roof. I
considered Teal, but had to rule her out because her spec.'s call
out marine plywood and no one in my area (SW Pa) carries it.
Cartopper can be built with AC plywood. I saw the other posts about
Crystal, but am not sure I want to spend $75.00 for plans. Any
other suggestions?
I'd still like to know how many people and how many pounds Cartopper
can carry.
Ken
is about the largest boat that will fit my trailer. I have a
Tracker convertible, so I can't put a boat on the roof. I
considered Teal, but had to rule her out because her spec.'s call
out marine plywood and no one in my area (SW Pa) carries it.
Cartopper can be built with AC plywood. I saw the other posts about
Crystal, but am not sure I want to spend $75.00 for plans. Any
other suggestions?
I'd still like to know how many people and how many pounds Cartopper
can carry.
Ken
Peter, try www.instantboats.com , My mistake though, mixed up the
names, its not the crab skiff, its the work skiff, pic is on the main
page (I just checked), click on it and it takes you to more pics. The
Teal is sort of left upper quadrant. the work skiff center but lower.
I lifted it and put it in the work skiff photo folder of this group.
She's white with blue trim.
Bruce, the work skiff finder
names, its not the crab skiff, its the work skiff, pic is on the main
page (I just checked), click on it and it takes you to more pics. The
Teal is sort of left upper quadrant. the work skiff center but lower.
I lifted it and put it in the work skiff photo folder of this group.
She's white with blue trim.
Bruce, the work skiff finder
--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
list's website, I find that Crystal is design #352. It appeared if
Bolger's own _Different Boats_, Chapter 3, and in _Messing About in
Boats_, Volume 19, Number 15. The plans are available from Phil Bolger
and Friends for $75.00. At least somebody finds the website useful,
porky
> Can you supply more details about Crystal, including what issue ofChecking the Boat Design List on the Database of this very mailing
> MAIB it appeared in?...
list's website, I find that Crystal is design #352. It appeared if
Bolger's own _Different Boats_, Chapter 3, and in _Messing About in
Boats_, Volume 19, Number 15. The plans are available from Phil Bolger
and Friends for $75.00. At least somebody finds the website useful,
porky
I have built both frame and plywood and stitch and glue boats, and the
frame and plywood is actually faster.
I sat and looked at the previous statement for a while, and realized
that while I could build a open Crystal a lot faster than I could a non
sailing Gypsy, this might not be true of a total novice not that I am a
Master Shipwright or anything. The other thing that would make it easier
for me is I am truly blessed with a shop that has almost every power
tool for wood working known to man, and this contributes to the making
the frame and plywood faster. Stitch and glue does not require many
tools.
HJ
pvanderwaart wrote:
frame and plywood is actually faster.
I sat and looked at the previous statement for a while, and realized
that while I could build a open Crystal a lot faster than I could a non
sailing Gypsy, this might not be true of a total novice not that I am a
Master Shipwright or anything. The other thing that would make it easier
for me is I am truly blessed with a shop that has almost every power
tool for wood working known to man, and this contributes to the making
the frame and plywood faster. Stitch and glue does not require many
tools.
HJ
pvanderwaart wrote:
>
> Since I suggested Crystal, it has occurred to me that Gypsy has the
> advantage of the Stitch & Glue (Tape & Glue?) construction of the
> Cartopper. That may have been one the attractive features of
> Cartopper.
>
> Peter
>
Since I suggested Crystal, it has occurred to me that Gypsy has the
advantage of the Stitch & Glue (Tape & Glue?) construction of the
Cartopper. That may have been one the attractive features of
Cartopper.
Peter
advantage of the Stitch & Glue (Tape & Glue?) construction of the
Cartopper. That may have been one the attractive features of
Cartopper.
Peter
Crystal was intended for oars only, and for fairly rough water in the
closed hull version (rough as in "holy s--t am I scared"). Bolger does
say that she can take a small motor, though he had not put one on his at
the publishing of Different Boats. He states that you should be able to
go 7 nautical miles in 2 hrs with minimal strain under oars.
HJ
brucehector wrote:
closed hull version (rough as in "holy s--t am I scared"). Bolger does
say that she can take a small motor, though he had not put one on his at
the publishing of Different Boats. He states that you should be able to
go 7 nautical miles in 2 hrs with minimal strain under oars.
HJ
brucehector wrote:
>
> Does Crystal take an outboard? If so, yes. The photos of her in MAIB
> were great, especially in the big surf. I'd love to try the lifeboat
> version in the big freighter wakes here, the closest thing we get to
> surf on the St. Lawrence. Bruce
>
G'afternoon Bruce,
Went over to check out Payson's home page to check out the
Crab Skiff (built one once...ex-Surf owners never die,we just get
crazier) anyway,all I could see was a new Teal,baby sister to the Crab
Skiff AKA Surf but no Crab Skiff........either I am not drinkin'
enough or(worse) the wrong stuff.
Peter Lenihan
Went over to check out Payson's home page to check out the
Crab Skiff (built one once...ex-Surf owners never die,we just get
crazier) anyway,all I could see was a new Teal,baby sister to the Crab
Skiff AKA Surf but no Crab Skiff........either I am not drinkin'
enough or(worse) the wrong stuff.
Peter Lenihan
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
>
> BTW I was just over at Payson's and there's a very pretty completion
> of the Crab Skiff gracing his home page just now. He keeps changing
> it.
>
> Bruce Hector
> www.brucesboats.com
I recall Bolger says it rows ok as long as you don't try to go fast,
and as long as you have one or three people in it. He said it was hard
to trim it correctly with two people, but I'd guess if you removed the
centerboard trunk that problem could be easily corrected. Short, deep,
wide boats are low drag at low (and I mean low) speeds. Long narrow
boats have MORE drag until you get to a significant fraction of hull
speed. If you don't mind 2.5 knots (maybe a bit more, I'm guessing?),
it's probably fine. Our Nymph is very easy to row at slow speeds. I
think the bottom line is that if you are a vigourous rower you may
want something else but if you just want to mess around it may be a
good choice.
Bolger shows a marked waterline at 569 lbs, so he must have at least
contemplated that kind of load, although maybe he just wanted it to
survive such a load. Don't forget to allow for the weight of the boat
itself.
It may pay to use long cables to keep the battery weight away from the
ends of the boat. My dad has found this handy with his canoe.
Anyone out there with actual Cartopper experience? I don't claim any,
though I know people who like them.
and as long as you have one or three people in it. He said it was hard
to trim it correctly with two people, but I'd guess if you removed the
centerboard trunk that problem could be easily corrected. Short, deep,
wide boats are low drag at low (and I mean low) speeds. Long narrow
boats have MORE drag until you get to a significant fraction of hull
speed. If you don't mind 2.5 knots (maybe a bit more, I'm guessing?),
it's probably fine. Our Nymph is very easy to row at slow speeds. I
think the bottom line is that if you are a vigourous rower you may
want something else but if you just want to mess around it may be a
good choice.
Bolger shows a marked waterline at 569 lbs, so he must have at least
contemplated that kind of load, although maybe he just wanted it to
survive such a load. Don't forget to allow for the weight of the boat
itself.
It may pay to use long cables to keep the battery weight away from the
ends of the boat. My dad has found this handy with his canoe.
Anyone out there with actual Cartopper experience? I don't claim any,
though I know people who like them.
--- In bolger@y..., "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> Hi, Ken:
>
> Sailboats like Cartopper tend to be beamy in order to have enough
stability to stand up to a press of sail. This shape is not the best
for low power motor propulsion. Generally speaking, longer narrower
boats are more easily driven. You might want to consider Bolger's
Teal or Junebug for electric power.
>
> Chuck
> Hi,
>
> I am considering building the Cartopper and I have a couple
> questions. First, I am not interested in a sailboat, but would
use
> either oars or an electric trolling motor. Is this design ok or
> should I consider something else? Second, how many people and how
> many pounds can Cartopper carry? Thanks for the help.
>
> Ken
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, that surf rowboat was Crystal. I was struck by how much she
resembled Gypsy's lines, but with a bit more freeboard. My MAIBs are
at work, I'll look Monday for you.
Bruce
resembled Gypsy's lines, but with a bit more freeboard. My MAIBs are
at work, I'll look Monday for you.
Bruce
Can you supply more details about Crystal, including what issue of
MAIB it appeared in? I remember a kind or surf rowboat a while back,
but I didn't remember a v bottom.
Sort of thinking of building something the "right" way after finishing
current project, which is so screwy we migh call it "SQ".
MAIB it appeared in? I remember a kind or surf rowboat a while back,
but I didn't remember a v bottom.
Sort of thinking of building something the "right" way after finishing
current project, which is so screwy we migh call it "SQ".
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
> Does Crystal take an outboard? If so, yes. The photos of her in MAIB
> were great, especially in the big surf. I'd love to try the lifeboat
> version in the big freighter wakes here, the closest thing we get to
> surf on the St. Lawrence. Bruce
Does Crystal take an outboard? If so, yes. The photos of her in MAIB
were great, especially in the big surf. I'd love to try the lifeboat
version in the big freighter wakes here, the closest thing we get to
surf on the St. Lawrence. Bruce
were great, especially in the big surf. I'd love to try the lifeboat
version in the big freighter wakes here, the closest thing we get to
surf on the St. Lawrence. Bruce
> Consider Gypsy, 15' designed by Phil for sail, oar or lightoutboard and reportedly good at all three.
I can't answer for how good Cartopper would be as a straight rowing
boat, but I think that if you are interested in her, then you
probably want a more sophisticated model than one of the pure flat
bottomed skifss like June Bug. Gypsy would be excellent although
Bolger has written that her rowing capability is dimished by the
extra beam required for sailing.
I nominate Crystal. She is a very elegant v-bottom model, designed as
a pure rowboat. There are plans for both a normal open boat, and one
with closed air chambers for use as a lifeboat.
Peter
Ken I agree with Chuck. While you can certainly row or power her,
sail is Cartopper's preferred method of propulsion. A bit too much
beam for rowing and too much rocker for efficient power.
Consider Gypsy, 15' designed by Phil for sail, oar or light outboard
and reportedly good at all three. Just build her without the sail
equipment, rudder or centerboard slot and save a grand: June Bug,
14', although not designed for power she could be modifyed for a
small electric, Or the Pointy (10') or Fisherman (12") skiffs. All
Phil Bolger designs, all plans available at Dynamite Payson's site
for $35 each.
BTW I was just over at Payson's and there's a very pretty completion
of the Crab Skiff gracing his home page just now. He keeps changing
it.
Bruce Hector
www.brucesboats.com
sail is Cartopper's preferred method of propulsion. A bit too much
beam for rowing and too much rocker for efficient power.
Consider Gypsy, 15' designed by Phil for sail, oar or light outboard
and reportedly good at all three. Just build her without the sail
equipment, rudder or centerboard slot and save a grand: June Bug,
14', although not designed for power she could be modifyed for a
small electric, Or the Pointy (10') or Fisherman (12") skiffs. All
Phil Bolger designs, all plans available at Dynamite Payson's site
for $35 each.
BTW I was just over at Payson's and there's a very pretty completion
of the Crab Skiff gracing his home page just now. He keeps changing
it.
Bruce Hector
www.brucesboats.com
Hi, Ken:
Sailboats like Cartopper tend to be beamy in order to have enough stability to stand up to a press of sail. This shape is not the best for low power motor propulsion. Generally speaking, longer narrower boats are more easily driven. You might want to consider Bolger's Teal or Junebug for electric power.
Chuck
Hi,
I am considering building the Cartopper and I have a couple
questions. First, I am not interested in a sailboat, but would use
either oars or an electric trolling motor. Is this design ok or
should I consider something else? Second, how many people and how
many pounds can Cartopper carry? Thanks for the help.
Ken
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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sailboats like Cartopper tend to be beamy in order to have enough stability to stand up to a press of sail. This shape is not the best for low power motor propulsion. Generally speaking, longer narrower boats are more easily driven. You might want to consider Bolger's Teal or Junebug for electric power.
Chuck
Hi,
I am considering building the Cartopper and I have a couple
questions. First, I am not interested in a sailboat, but would use
either oars or an electric trolling motor. Is this design ok or
should I consider something else? Second, how many people and how
many pounds can Cartopper carry? Thanks for the help.
Ken
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi,
I am considering building the Cartopper and I have a couple
questions. First, I am not interested in a sailboat, but would use
either oars or an electric trolling motor. Is this design ok or
should I consider something else? Second, how many people and how
many pounds can Cartopper carry? Thanks for the help.
Ken
I am considering building the Cartopper and I have a couple
questions. First, I am not interested in a sailboat, but would use
either oars or an electric trolling motor. Is this design ok or
should I consider something else? Second, how many people and how
many pounds can Cartopper carry? Thanks for the help.
Ken
My two sons and Fritz's and his son are building three. We stacked sawed all
the parts for all three at one time. Unfortunately we didn't photograph that
process. Both my sons boats are 3D and the lines are really sweet.
Fritz is hoping to lure in a few more builders this winter. There is a very
well organized youth sailing program on its third year and we can maybe feed
into that. We made patterns while we were stack sawing, so there would be
minimal measuring.
HJ in Juneau, where the creek across the road must be really nice because
2,000 dead salmon can't be wrong.
Peter Vanderwaart wrote:
% Harrywelshman@...
the parts for all three at one time. Unfortunately we didn't photograph that
process. Both my sons boats are 3D and the lines are really sweet.
Fritz is hoping to lure in a few more builders this winter. There is a very
well organized youth sailing program on its third year and we can maybe feed
into that. We made patterns while we were stack sawing, so there would be
minimal measuring.
HJ in Juneau, where the creek across the road must be really nice because
2,000 dead salmon can't be wrong.
Peter Vanderwaart wrote:
> Another of the boats is the Bolger CarTopper, a very worth design_ _ _ _
> that doesn't get much play here. I suppose it looks a little
> complicated.
% Harrywelshman@...