Re: [bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideas
Here at PB&F we’ve gone Low-Carbon in our structuring of housing, office-ops, travel, etc. a long time back, with more in-house ambitions yet ahead on the agenda.
Today Gloucester is more wooded than it was when Phil was born nearly 90 years ago.
A learning-process that is still slow, since resisted by so many, including astonishing amounts of (so-called) ‘conservatives’ hedonistically gorging on limited if not finite resources...
The most important task on the table.
Relatively few trees, back home or elsewhere, shall survive this human caused extinction event or even this century.
They cleared the forests of England to build a navy and merchant navy. It didn't stop there. It didn't start there. In the last few hundred years it has ramped up massively.
Humans have busily cleared the forests of Earth and altered the climate for around 12000 years. Massive clearing first occurred on all continents with firestick farming, then slash and burn, and later agricultural innovations. The forests, especially tropical forests, are in massive retreat today. They're being clear felled for what wood remains and to make way for agriculture. Forests all over are also rapidly succumbing to agw induced effects such as drought and rampant wild fires. Humans, forest destruction, later fossil combustion powered industrial capitalism, climate, and an ultimate massive extinction event make for tragic links.
http://modernfarmer.com/2016/02/early-farmers-climate-change/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1002/2015RG000503/abstract
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_anthropocene
https://phys.org/news/2011-10-team-european-ice-age-due.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3251087/
https://robertscribbler.com/
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote :
Sailing without fossil-fuel is an old story..., i.e. pretty much everything before the last 200-years of age of coal, gasoline, naphtha, diesel, but of course not wood, perfectly good for external combustion – while remaining energy-neutral, as those trees back home keep on growing.
Relatively few trees, back home or elsewhere, shall survive this human caused extinction event or even this century.
They cleared the forests of England to build a navy and merchant navy. It didn't stop there. It didn't start there. In the last few hundred years it has ramped up massively.
Humans have busily cleared the forests of Earth and altered the climate for around 12000 years. Massive clearing first occurred on all continents with firestick farming, then slash and burn, and later agricultural innovations. The forests, especially tropical forests, are in massive retreat today. They're being clear felled for what wood remains and to make way for agriculture. Forests all over are also rapidly succumbing to agw induced effects such as drought and rampant wild fires. Humans, forest destruction, later fossil combustion powered industrial capitalism, climate, and an ultimate massive extinction event make for tragic links.
http://modernfarmer.com/2016/02/early-farmers-climate-change/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1002/2015RG000503/abstract
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_anthropocene
https://phys.org/news/2011-10-team-european-ice-age-due.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3251087/
https://robertscribbler.com/
---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote :
Sailing without fossil-fuel is an old story..., i.e. pretty much everything before the last 200-years of age of coal, gasoline, naphtha, diesel, but of course not wood, perfectly good for external combustion – while remaining energy-neutral, as those trees back home keep on growing.
Out of Gloucester - America's Oldest Fishing-Port - two major
concerns about the brazen EDF/Lubchenco/Kritzer-perspective:
1.
EDF-pious claims notwithstanding, privatizing a public resource without any
compensation to the public - as in so-called 'catch-shares' = EDF's gospel -
remains an astonishing extra-legal industry model that would not survive either
a liberal-, or a libertarian-, or a chamber-of-commerce-, or a tea-party Supreme
Court.
In e.g. New England's Groundfish Industry, beginning on May 1st
2010 - not a date on the evening news (!) - privatizing the public's fish into a
few private hands is leading unavoidably into consolidation of these 'shares'
into fewer and fewer private hands, traded formally and informally. A private
wealth-aggregation-scheme based solely on this public resource.
Meanwhile we don't get royalties, no rent-payments, or at least fees to
help support our publicly-owned fishing-ports infrastructures. These folks are
neither Ecologists nor Market-Economics minded.
2. EDF in New
England, as headed by Kritzer, nor EDF nationally, when EDF's own Jane Lubchenco
(of Oregon State University) headed NOAA between 2009 and 2013, has EDF ever
support even just first steps towards a reasonably 'sustainable' fishing fleet.
To this day, neither Kritzer nor Lubchenco have ever challenged the
Fleet-Innovation-Prohibitions imposed upon the industry in '94 in New England
and '99 nationally. Even with Lubchenco in charge NOAA never allowed the
emergence of a Low-Carbon 21st-century fishing-fleet.
Therefore their/EDF's definitions of 'sustainable' are to be treated
with extreme caution. Between
- the privatization
few-get-rich-at-public-expense scheme of 'Catch Shares',
- and the
EDF-unchallenged NOAA-insistence upon a High-Carbon Commercial Fishing-Fleet on
all coastlines,
anything related to Commercial Fisheries out of the EDF P.R.
machine so far has been a very public spectacle of dark dubious and endlessly
contradictory 'policies'. The serious socio-economic crisis on New
England's Fisheries Waterfront is an unarguable testament to these EDF-failures
in political legitimacy.
P.S.: Oregon State University's new large
Research-Vessel will likely be called the LUBCHENCO, a fitting tribute to that
vessel's already-known high-carbon design-philosophy, - construction-approach,
and thus projected operational practices over the next 40-50 years...
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
Leigh Ross
this may be too "off topic" to mention - if so, forgive me, but in any case
I am happy to leave it here and let those who care to - do their own research
. It is just that it occurred to me that the participants here do show
some interest in thinking outside the box. (I intend that also as a homage to
Phil)
Sent:Monday, 13 March 2017 1:16 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideas
This from an exchange with Wayne some time later:
She is fully fiberglass & epoxy inside and out.
No wood for structure or spars as far as I could make out.
No further considerations of the actual ‘carbon foot-print’ of the effort first and last.
While all the electronics and electrical components allow a Zero-Zero energy-budget, the actual energy required for these many pieces of hardware is not part of the calculation.
Nor would be the recycling cost of failed/aged components.
One can get quite ‘picky’ about definitions of ‘Sustainability’.
But for both technical’ and political’ sake coherence/consistency does indeed matter.
While ‘the holy grail’ may technically be a way off – not so true actually (!) - , or too costly to reach soon, stating underlying assumptions up-front seems a must to avoid ‘blow-back’ that could undermine e.g. any political legitimacy on the regulatory front.
So I do stand in part corrected in that
- she can be repaired ‘in the field’,
- has a useful R-value for living aboard in colder climes,
No data on actual costs seems available yet.
Overall a laudable exercise.
But not a ‘leading example’, any paradigm-shifting break with convention.
The target of ’Duurzaam’ - meaning ‘sustainability’ – is only applied to the daily balancing of electrical consumption.
Not the hull, rig, etc.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
Sailing without fossil-fuel is an old story..., i.e. pretty much everything before the last 200-years of age of coal, gasoline, naphtha, diesel, but of course not wood, perfectly good for external combustion – while remaining energy-neutral, as those trees back home keep on growing.
- I do see here a ‘carbon’ rig it seems, synthetic cloth, etc. with all the usual High-Carbon details, and unavoidable once you are headed in this (pseudo) ‘modern’ direction of such a sail-plan.
- Carbon sticks are expected to survive not matter what ?
- And no modification to standing rigging after one crossing or two ?
- No indications as yet that she would be hard to sink, or primary requirement of boat- and crew-‘sustainability’, i.e, not dying from a hole underwater...
- While they show her sitting on the hard, they do not show her sailing across the hard as that would be a serious challenge with that shape; hence sharpies and related shapes that allow broad-reaching without much or any board( s).
And that means not much controlled sailing across shallow, e.g. to stay off a lee-shore. Ergo the need to run the motor/engine in such scenaria.
- Ironically, if equipped with (Dutch/English/Chinese...) leeboards she could be expected to reasonably broad-reach herself out of trouble...
- The shape would not casually lend itself to be a 4-season habitable structure, i.e. in the Netherlands (of all places).
- Nor is it readily ‘armor-able’ or readily repairable for global-cruising purposes away from industrial support infrastructure.
not the first without fossil fuels!
Jesse Martin on Lionheart in 1999 (or thereabouts) did it (circumnavigated - even through (around) the antipodal points) solo, non-stop, unassisted, youngest - and for his own pure pleasure WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS.
(so there!)
frank (sorry)From:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Wayne Gilham'wgilham@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent:Monday, 27 February 2017 6:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideasSuzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/ english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here:http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
Leigh Ross
On Mar 13, 2017, at 10:14, frank raisinpfrankr@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
this may be too "off topic" to mention - if so, forgive me, but in any case I am happy to leave it here and let those who care to - do their own research . It is just that it occurred to me that the participants here do show some interest in thinking outside the box. (I intend that also as a homage to Phil)
I suggest that "Sustainability" etc. is only important if we live in a "Deep-Time" cosmos.if the local region of the universe is "Young" (of the order of thousands of years cf. billions) then other considerations become more urgent.now please don't shoot me! I merely mention it because, after some extensive (and agonising!) research, I have established to my personal satisfaction that the Young crowd have a solid enough scientific base to support their views - such that they warrant serious consideration - and I have reached a curmudgeonly enough old age to not care about mentioning my political incorrectness.I am suggesting that anyone who cares to look might agree with the kid - the Emperor is naked!With angst,frankFrom:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger@yahoogroups.com> on behalf ofphilbolger@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent:Monday, 13 March 2017 1:16 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideasThe note from here ahead of this one just went out too quickly without enough context.So more here.
This from an exchange with Wayne some time later:Wayne,a conversation with the Dutch Duurzaam-Yacht yacht’s designer Dick Koopmans revealed that she is built of 2” foam-construction using foam from recycled –bottles etc - for a matrix.
She is fully fiberglass & epoxy inside and out.
No wood for structure or spars as far as I could make out.
No further considerations of the actual ‘carbon foot-print’ of the effort first and last.
While all the electronics and electrical components allow a Zero-Zero energy-budget, the actual energy required for these many pieces of hardware is not part of the calculation.
Nor would be the recycling cost of failed/aged components.
One can get quite ‘picky’ about definitions of ‘Sustainability’.
But for both technical’ and political’ sake coherence/consistency does indeed matter.
While ‘the holy grail’ may technically be a way off – not so true actually (!) - , or too costly to reach soon, stating underlying assumptions up-front seems a must to avoid ‘blow-back’ that could undermine e.g. any political legitimacy on the regulatory front.
So I do stand in part corrected in that
- she can be repaired ‘in the field’,
- has a useful R-value for living aboard in colder climes,- and should stay afloat if holed, between two water-tight bulkheads and that foam.
No data on actual costs seems available yet.
Overall a laudable exercise.
But not a ‘leading example’, any paradigm-shifting break with convention.
The target of ’Duurzaam’ - meaning ‘sustainability’ – is only applied to the daily balancing of electrical consumption.
Not the hull, rig, etc.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&FFrom:philbolger@...Sent:Monday, March 13, 2017 9:13 AMSubject:Re: [bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideasDaring claim to state that this boat be the first to circumnavigate without Diesel.Dutch is close-enough to German to get a plausible sense of the narrative.
Sailing without fossil-fuel is an old story..., i.e. pretty much everything before the last 200-years of age of coal, gasoline, naphtha, diesel, but of course not wood, perfectly good for external combustion – while remaining energy-neutral, as those trees back home keep on growing.
- I do see here a ‘carbon’ rig it seems, synthetic cloth, etc. with all the usual High-Carbon details, and unavoidable once you are headed in this (pseudo) ‘modern’ direction of such a sail-plan.
- Carbon sticks are expected to survive not matter what ?
- And no modification to standing rigging after one crossing or two ?- No sense yet what her hull is made of. No obvious bragging of wood-use in the PR. And no pictures of her construction found yet on short notice.
- No indications as yet that she would be hard to sink, or primary requirement of boat- and crew-‘sustainability’, i.e, not dying from a hole underwater...- The shape is one Phil did 30+ years ago across a range of sizes, and did publish.
- While they show her sitting on the hard, they do not show her sailing across the hard as that would be a serious challenge with that shape; hence sharpies and related shapes that allow broad-reaching without much or any board( s).
And that means not much controlled sailing across shallow, e.g. to stay off a lee-shore. Ergo the need to run the motor/engine in such scenaria.
- Ironically, if equipped with (Dutch/English/Chinese...) leeboards she could be expected to reasonably broad-reach herself out of trouble...
- The shape would not casually lend itself to be a 4-season habitable structure, i.e. in the Netherlands (of all places).
- Nor is it readily ‘armor-able’ or readily repairable for global-cruising purposes away from industrial support infrastructure.--------------------------------------------------
Sent:Monday, March 13, 2017 8:38 AMSubject:Re: [bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideasAccompanied by good fortune. I hope he at least had a backup for safety. I got caught in the confluence of the Cape Fear River and ICW in coastal NC once, and the light air wasn't sufficient to stop my current drift toward a group of large pilings. I cranked quickly to escape that current, shut down and went back to sailing. Saved my bacon. Bill S.On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:48 AM, frank raisinpfrankr@...[bolger]<bolger@yahoogroups.com>wrote:not the first without fossil fuels!
Jesse Martin on Lionheart in 1999 (or thereabouts) did it (circumnavigated - even through (around) the antipodal points) solo, non-stop, unassisted, youngest - and for his own pure pleasure WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS.
(so there!)
frank (sorry)From:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Wayne Gilham'wgilham@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent:Monday, 27 February 2017 6:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideasSuzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/ english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here:http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
this may be too "off topic" to mention - if so, forgive me, but in any case I
am happy to leave it here and let those who care to - do their own research
. It is just that it occurred to me that the participants here do show
some interest in thinking outside the box. (I intend that also as a homage to
Phil)
Sent:Monday, 13 March 2017 1:16 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideas
This from an exchange with Wayne some time later:
She is fully fiberglass & epoxy inside and out.
No wood for structure or spars as far as I could make out.
No further considerations of the actual ‘carbon foot-print’ of the effort first and last.
While all the electronics and electrical components allow a Zero-Zero energy-budget, the actual energy required for these many pieces of hardware is not part of the calculation.
Nor would be the recycling cost of failed/aged components.
One can get quite ‘picky’ about definitions of ‘Sustainability’.
But for both technical’ and political’ sake coherence/consistency does indeed matter.
While ‘the holy grail’ may technically be a way off – not so true actually (!) - , or too costly to reach soon, stating underlying assumptions up-front seems a must to avoid ‘blow-back’ that could undermine e.g. any political legitimacy on the regulatory front.
So I do stand in part corrected in that
- she can be repaired ‘in the field’,
- has a useful R-value for living aboard in colder climes,
No data on actual costs seems available yet.
Overall a laudable exercise.
But not a ‘leading example’, any paradigm-shifting break with convention.
The target of ’Duurzaam’ - meaning ‘sustainability’ – is only applied to the daily balancing of electrical consumption.
Not the hull, rig, etc.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
Sailing without fossil-fuel is an old story..., i.e. pretty much everything before the last 200-years of age of coal, gasoline, naphtha, diesel, but of course not wood, perfectly good for external combustion – while remaining energy-neutral, as those trees back home keep on growing.
- I do see here a ‘carbon’ rig it seems, synthetic cloth, etc. with all the usual High-Carbon details, and unavoidable once you are headed in this (pseudo) ‘modern’ direction of such a sail-plan.
- Carbon sticks are expected to survive not matter what ?
- And no modification to standing rigging after one crossing or two ?
- No indications as yet that she would be hard to sink, or primary requirement of boat- and crew-‘sustainability’, i.e, not dying from a hole underwater...
- While they show her sitting on the hard, they do not show her sailing across the hard as that would be a serious challenge with that shape; hence sharpies and related shapes that allow broad-reaching without much or any board( s).
And that means not much controlled sailing across shallow, e.g. to stay off a lee-shore. Ergo the need to run the motor/engine in such scenaria.
- Ironically, if equipped with (Dutch/English/Chinese...) leeboards she could be expected to reasonably broad-reach herself out of trouble...
- The shape would not casually lend itself to be a 4-season habitable structure, i.e. in the Netherlands (of all places).
- Nor is it readily ‘armor-able’ or readily repairable for global-cruising purposes away from industrial support infrastructure.
not the first without fossil fuels!
Jesse Martin on Lionheart in 1999 (or thereabouts) did it (circumnavigated - even through (around) the antipodal points) solo, non-stop, unassisted, youngest - and for his own pure pleasure WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS.
(so there!)
frank (sorry)From:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Wayne Gilham'wgilham@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent:Monday, 27 February 2017 6:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideasSuzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/ english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here:http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
this may be too "off topic" to mention - if so, forgive me, but in any case I am happy to leave it here and let those who care to - do their own research . It is just that it occurred to me that the participants here do show some interest in thinking outside
the box. (I intend that also as a homage to Phil)
Sent:Monday, 13 March 2017 1:16 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideas
This from an exchange with Wayne some time later:
She is fully fiberglass & epoxy inside and out.
No wood for structure or spars as far as I could make out.
No further considerations of the actual ‘carbon foot-print’ of the effort first and last.
While all the electronics and electrical components allow a Zero-Zero energy-budget, the actual energy required for these many pieces of hardware is not part of the calculation.
Nor would be the recycling cost of failed/aged components.
One can get quite ‘picky’ about definitions of ‘Sustainability’.
But for both technical’ and political’ sake coherence/consistency does indeed matter.
While ‘the holy grail’ may technically be a way off – not so true actually (!) - , or too costly to reach soon, stating underlying assumptions up-front seems a must to avoid ‘blow-back’ that could undermine e.g. any political legitimacy on the regulatory front.
So I do stand in part corrected in that
- she can be repaired ‘in the field’,
- has a useful R-value for living aboard in colder climes,
No data on actual costs seems available yet.
Overall a laudable exercise.
But not a ‘leading example’, any paradigm-shifting break with convention.
The target of ’Duurzaam’ - meaning ‘sustainability’ – is only applied to the daily balancing of electrical consumption.
Not the hull, rig, etc.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
Sailing without fossil-fuel is an old story..., i.e. pretty much everything before the last 200-years of age of coal, gasoline, naphtha, diesel, but of course not wood, perfectly good for external combustion – while remaining energy-neutral, as those trees back home keep on growing.
- I do see here a ‘carbon’ rig it seems, synthetic cloth, etc. with all the usual High-Carbon details, and unavoidable once you are headed in this (pseudo) ‘modern’ direction of such a sail-plan.
- Carbon sticks are expected to survive not matter what ?
- And no modification to standing rigging after one crossing or two ?
- No indications as yet that she would be hard to sink, or primary requirement of boat- and crew-‘sustainability’, i.e, not dying from a hole underwater...
- While they show her sitting on the hard, they do not show her sailing across the hard as that would be a serious challenge with that shape; hence sharpies and related shapes that allow broad-reaching without much or any board( s).
And that means not much controlled sailing across shallow, e.g. to stay off a lee-shore. Ergo the need to run the motor/engine in such scenaria.
- Ironically, if equipped with (Dutch/English/Chinese...) leeboards she could be expected to reasonably broad-reach herself out of trouble...
- The shape would not casually lend itself to be a 4-season habitable structure, i.e. in the Netherlands (of all places).
- Nor is it readily ‘armor-able’ or readily repairable for global-cruising purposes away from industrial support infrastructure.
not the first without fossil fuels!
Jesse Martin on Lionheart in 1999 (or thereabouts) did it (circumnavigated - even through (around) the antipodal points) solo, non-stop, unassisted, youngest - and for his own pure pleasure WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS.
(so there!)
frank (sorry)From:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Wayne Gilham'wgilham@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent:Monday, 27 February 2017 6:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideasSuzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/ english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here:http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
This from an exchange with Wayne some time later:
She is fully fiberglass & epoxy inside and out.
No wood for structure or spars as far as I could make out.
No further considerations of the actual ‘carbon foot-print’ of the effort first and last.
While all the electronics and electrical components allow a Zero-Zero energy-budget, the actual energy required for these many pieces of hardware is not part of the calculation.
Nor would be the recycling cost of failed/aged components.
One can get quite ‘picky’ about definitions of ‘Sustainability’.
But for both technical’ and political’ sake coherence/consistency does indeed matter.
While ‘the holy grail’ may technically be a way off – not so true actually (!) - , or too costly to reach soon, stating underlying assumptions up-front seems a must to avoid ‘blow-back’ that could undermine e.g. any political legitimacy on the regulatory front.
So I do stand in part corrected in that
- she can be repaired ‘in the field’,
- has a useful R-value for living aboard in colder climes,
No data on actual costs seems available yet.
Overall a laudable exercise.
But not a ‘leading example’, any paradigm-shifting break with convention.
The target of ’Duurzaam’ - meaning ‘sustainability’ – is only applied to the daily balancing of electrical consumption.
Not the hull, rig, etc.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
Sailing without fossil-fuel is an old story..., i.e. pretty much everything before the last 200-years of age of coal, gasoline, naphtha, diesel, but of course not wood, perfectly good for external combustion – while remaining energy-neutral, as those trees back home keep on growing.
- I do see here a ‘carbon’ rig it seems, synthetic cloth, etc. with all the usual High-Carbon details, and unavoidable once you are headed in this (pseudo) ‘modern’ direction of such a sail-plan.
- Carbon sticks are expected to survive not matter what ?
- And no modification to standing rigging after one crossing or two ?
- No indications as yet that she would be hard to sink, or primary requirement of boat- and crew-‘sustainability’, i.e, not dying from a hole underwater...
- While they show her sitting on the hard, they do not show her sailing across the hard as that would be a serious challenge with that shape; hence sharpies and related shapes that allow broad-reaching without much or any board( s).
And that means not much controlled sailing across shallow, e.g. to stay off a lee-shore. Ergo the need to run the motor/engine in such scenaria.
- Ironically, if equipped with (Dutch/English/Chinese...) leeboards she could be expected to reasonably broad-reach herself out of trouble...
- The shape would not casually lend itself to be a 4-season habitable structure, i.e. in the Netherlands (of all places).
- Nor is it readily ‘armor-able’ or readily repairable for global-cruising purposes away from industrial support infrastructure.
not the first without fossil fuels!
Jesse Martin on Lionheart in 1999 (or thereabouts) did it (circumnavigated - even through (around) the antipodal points) solo, non-stop, unassisted, youngest - and for his own pure pleasure WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS.
(so there!)
Sent:Monday, 27 February 2017 6:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideas
Suzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/ english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here:http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
Sailing without fossil-fuel is an old story..., i.e. pretty much everything before the last 200-years of age of coal, gasoline, naphtha, diesel, but of course not wood, perfectly good for external combustion – while remaining energy-neutral, as those trees back home keep on growing.
- I do see here a ‘carbon’ rig it seems, synthetic cloth, etc. with all the usual High-Carbon details, and unavoidable once you are headed in this (pseudo) ‘modern’ direction of such a sail-plan.
- Carbon sticks are expected to survive not matter what ?
- And no modification to standing rigging after one crossing or two ?
- No indications as yet that she would be hard to sink, or primary requirement of boat- and crew-‘sustainability’, i.e, not dying from a hole underwater...
- While they show her sitting on the hard, they do not show her sailing across the hard as that would be a serious challenge with that shape; hence sharpies and related shapes that allow broad-reaching without much or any board( s).
And that means not much controlled sailing across shallow, e.g. to stay off a lee-shore. Ergo the need to run the motor/engine in such scenaria.
- Ironically, if equipped with (Dutch/English/Chinese...) leeboards she could be expected to reasonably broad-reach herself out of trouble...
- The shape would not casually lend itself to be a 4-season habitable structure, i.e. in the Netherlands (of all places).
- Nor is it readily ‘armor-able’ or readily repairable for global-cruising purposes away from industrial support infrastructure.
not the first without fossil fuels!
Jesse Martin on Lionheart in 1999 (or thereabouts) did it (circumnavigated - even through (around) the antipodal points) solo, non-stop, unassisted, youngest - and for his own pure pleasure WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS.
(so there!)
Sent:Monday, 27 February 2017 6:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideas
Suzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/ english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here:http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:48 AM, frank raisinpfrankr@...[bolger]<bolger@yahoogroups.com>wrote:not the first without fossil fuels!
Jesse Martin on Lionheart in 1999 (or thereabouts) did it (circumnavigated - even through (around) the antipodal points) solo, non-stop, unassisted, youngest - and for his own pure pleasure WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS.
(so there!)
frank (sorry)From:bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Wayne Gilham'wgilham@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent:Monday, 27 February 2017 6:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideasSuzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/ english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here:http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
not the first without fossil fuels!
Jesse Martin on Lionheart in 1999 (or thereabouts) did it (circumnavigated - even through (around) the antipodal points) solo, non-stop, unassisted, youngest - and for his own pure pleasure WITHOUT FOSSIL FUELS.
(so there!)
Sent:Monday, 27 February 2017 6:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] RE: other sustainable boat-design ideas
Suzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here: http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
Suzanne: here's a rather unique very modern-trended sailing vessel (not the simple rigs that I so admire from Bolger&Friends, but hey...) which shows a "sustainable" approach to long-distance sailing..
http://duurzaamjacht.nl/english/
your Google-translate page may roughly translate some of the linked-pages... I don't think all your German can help too much for Dutch. eh?
This vessel was brought to my attention by the blog of a friend from Gig Harbor who is completing his circumnavigation - at 80 years old! - in his second 30' Naja plywood kit-built boat ---- he "lost" the one HE built in the 80's on a rocky island in the Balearics; climbed onto the rocks by pure luck and watched it become a pile of toothpicks - and lived to resume the journey in a sistership -- all this on nothing more than Social Security pension! Quite an inspiring tale, if ever you want to follow or dive back into his extensive blogs -- here: http://www.cometosea.us/
Wayne Gilham
This conceptual morass on the part of fisheries-regulators goes further yet, sinceit does actually reflect and affectpleasure-boat related regsand day-to-day boating reflexes as well.
And that is where your position is actually of great potential to push back from 3000 miles away, beginning in WA, against this weird stagnation caused from both governmental over-reach/conceptual stupid outlined in that article, and de facto submissiveness by industry that meekly accepts odd, backwards, and actually (self) destructive regs.
Just one example:Plenty of marinas designed for ‘short&fat’ boats but few that would allow long-&-lean types to be tied up at comparable rates, e.g. under the heading of three leaner types into the space for two fatter ones... Charging by square-footage versus ‘length’ would open doors. Either sliding finger-piers or just an initially modest percentage of the floats-set-up optimized for long-&-lean hulls.
Another example:“So, I bought myself a 30-footer...” essentially only a coherent statement, if the assumption is what boat-shows/-builders/-(other) –designer dictate, upon ‘market-research’ that that will most likely mean 30’x10’ or worse.
Picture ‘market-research’ by Detroit resulting in purposefully-designed 8-12 MPG fuel-hogs under the claim that that “is what people want”...
Different angle yet:Coast Guard regs by ‘Length’ versus Displacement. Mindless focus on ‘Length’- dimension (versus displacement) producing e.g. much ‘wetter’/(more ice-prone) types. Andno bonus for sustainable hull-materials, geometries, drive-trains for an industry that fully-depends on principles of sustainability, from hull-structure over hull-operations, to fishing-methods. And, truly tragically so,never any talk about HBISR - Hard-Built-In-Sinking-Resistance. Never even comes up ! Dark stuff really.
I could go on for a bit...
And sooner or later =- if not now actually - you could as well, the more you reflect on this.
There is a deep structural failure of analytics and respective metrics having ‘infected’ all sort of sectors of the Working Waterfront and reaching deep into Pleasure Boating as well.
And regs should not be the cause of this – or worse prevent getting out of that black-hole-of-dumb.
Most ‘rule-makers’ affecting design typically have less design-archive entries to their name than shine with rich frequent flyer mileage account as they rush to yet another meet’n to be officious and to justify their position.
You can’t be doing much design-thought and –work of you can spent time brewing up these types of myopic regs.
Overall, sounds like a non-partisan issue to me.
I could formulated a ‘flaming’ Progressive/Ecologist push-back against this ugly state of affairs as I could a Libertarian, a Chamber-of-Commerce version, an Anarchist’s one etc. etc.
Let’s talk.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
I must say that Suzanne Altenburger's article #18 (MAIB Feb 2017) in her - and Phil's - long-running series of articles on the unexpected (or not?) consequences of ill-conceived fisheries-limiting (fish-resource-conserving) regulations based on irrelevant parameters in limiting fishboat size, is simply BRILLIANT both in concept and in erudite writing... Suzanne, congratulations for great exposition and crystal-clear logic! And (for others intimidated by its length or obscure subject) this article does NOT require the reader to have also absorbed broadsides #1 thru #17 - this one stands by itself, recapitulating (for the most part) all the prior arguments. Highly recommended reading indeed.
Bravo.
If only I were better-connected to the fisheries groups AND regulators out here on the Left Coast, I would be handing out copies left and right to the shakers and movers.... but alas, my connections are entirely to the Recreational Boating community.
Wayne Gilham
Tacoma WA
Marine Surveyor (AMS #1240, SAMS)
also, President, Recreational Boating Assn of WA - "the boater's voice in our State Capitol" - a consortium of 50 member yacht clubs AND some 1400 individual members, looking after the interests of boat-owners in WA, with our own full-time hired lobbyist. See: www.RBAW.org
I must say that Suzanne Altenburger's article #18 (MAIB Feb 2017) in her - and Phil's - long-running series of articles on the unexpected (or not?) consequences of ill-conceived fisheries-limiting (fish-resource-conserving) regulations based on irrelevant parameters in limiting fishboat size, is simply BRILLIANT both in concept and in erudite writing... Suzanne, congratulations for great exposition and crystal-clear logic! And (for others intimidated by its length or obscure subject) this article does NOT require the reader to have also absorbed broadsides #1 thru #17 - this one stands by itself, recapitulating (for the most part) all the prior arguments. Highly recommended reading indeed.
Bravo.
If only I were better-connected to the fisheries groups AND regulators out here on the Left Coast, I would be handing out copies left and right to the shakers and movers.... but alas, my connections are entirely to the Recreational Boating community.
Wayne Gilham
Tacoma WA
Marine Surveyor (AMS #1240, SAMS)
also, President, Recreational Boating Assn of WA - "the boater's voice in our State Capitol" - a consortium of 50 member yacht clubs AND some 1400 individual members, looking after the interests of boat-owners in WA, with our own full-time hired lobbyist. See: www.RBAW.org
From:"jan_cudak@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Wednesday, February 1, 2017 12:38 PM
Subject:[bolger] I love my Gypsy...
Where abouts does she live ?
Czech Republic ?
As Phil intended, she sails and rows well... and even attracts swans.
And a good show for your friends as well.
Thanks again.
P.S.: If you put ‘Bolger Gypsy’ in all the YouTube titles related to her, more folks will find her.
Anxiously awaiting spring... Thank you Phil Bolger!
Last days of summer
 | Last
days of summer A
nice summer wind for my Bolger Gypsy. | ||||
Preview by
Yahoo | |||||
Last days of summer
| Last days of summer A nice summer wind for my Bolger Gypsy. | ||||
Preview by Yahoo | |||||