Re: Plywood: Fir or Okoume?
I have used the 1/2" 5-ply MDO and have been happy with it, the 3/8"
MDO I've looked at doesn't appear anywhere near as good. Maybe it was
a bad batch or different manufacturer, so check it carefully.
Rick
Sure you can, just tell her it's a new high tech cutting board
material that needs to be tested.
MDO I've looked at doesn't appear anywhere near as good. Maybe it was
a bad batch or different manufacturer, so check it carefully.
Rick
> I'd thought of building my Micro out of 3/8" MDO.has 5
> I've used is always very high quality, virtually no voids, the 1/2"
> plies of about the same thickness (haven't looked at 3/8" yet,though my
Sure you can, just tell her it's a new high tech cutting board
material that needs to be tested.
> My mother-in-law's visiting, leaves Saturday, so I can't stick achunk of
> MDO in the dishwasher until then, but I think I'll try it, see howit holds
> up....
>
> down in Woods Hole....
I went through this same question when I started my Martha Jane. Fir plus
glass or Oloume without glass/ since I am in Florida I decided that rot would
be a bigger issue than if I lived up north - and so felt that I would need to
glass either one just to be safe - that eliminated the equalizing of the
costs between glassed fir and non glassed okoume. The other factor was
availablity. I liked being able to go to home depot to buy my marine plywood
as needed rather than mail order.
Epoxy is great stuff - but sure is messy and expensive. If I ever build
another boat I think it will be one without much epoxy. By the way - I used
exterior grade plywood for the new rudders for Martha Jane. It was a good
quality - but I am real glad I used marine grade for the boat itself - I
would have hated to deal with all those voids - and my 1/2 inch marine grade
plywood had five laminations.
When I was building the rudders I came across a void which looked pretty bad
- so I set the rudder on edge and mixed up a dannon yogert carton of epoxy
and poured it into the void. It wasn't enough to fill it up. Yikes. I mixed
another - and then another - I couldn't believe the void was that big. after
four yogert cartoons of west system had been poured into the void I noticed a
puddle of epoxy forming on the floor by my feet. The void ran the entire
length of the rudder and out the bottom. So did all my epoxy.
Steve Anderson ( MJ Landroval)
glass or Oloume without glass/ since I am in Florida I decided that rot would
be a bigger issue than if I lived up north - and so felt that I would need to
glass either one just to be safe - that eliminated the equalizing of the
costs between glassed fir and non glassed okoume. The other factor was
availablity. I liked being able to go to home depot to buy my marine plywood
as needed rather than mail order.
Epoxy is great stuff - but sure is messy and expensive. If I ever build
another boat I think it will be one without much epoxy. By the way - I used
exterior grade plywood for the new rudders for Martha Jane. It was a good
quality - but I am real glad I used marine grade for the boat itself - I
would have hated to deal with all those voids - and my 1/2 inch marine grade
plywood had five laminations.
When I was building the rudders I came across a void which looked pretty bad
- so I set the rudder on edge and mixed up a dannon yogert carton of epoxy
and poured it into the void. It wasn't enough to fill it up. Yikes. I mixed
another - and then another - I couldn't believe the void was that big. after
four yogert cartoons of west system had been poured into the void I noticed a
puddle of epoxy forming on the floor by my feet. The void ran the entire
length of the rudder and out the bottom. So did all my epoxy.
Steve Anderson ( MJ Landroval)
>From: Paul A. Lefebvre, Jr. [mailto:paul@...]bending 3/8" MDO to the curves of a Micro.... Anyone ever used this for a
>
>Subject: RE: [bolger] Plywood: Fir or Okoume?
>... It is heavy, and also more rigid than regular ply, so I wonder about
Bolger boat? If so, how'd it work out?
I've never worked with MDO, but I did just build a Bolgeresque dinghy with
LOTS of rocker in the bottom and the sides (12" forward and 8" aft on 7' 9
1/2" total length) out of 3/8" BC Exterior Fir. My building partner and I
needed to use a Spanish windlass to pull the sides together aft (the bow was
screwed to its transom and a spreader was placed at the widest point). The
wood seemed to take it rather well, despite being of middling quality.
I don't expect you will have any trouble making Micro's gentler curves with
3/8" MDO, you will just need a heavy friend or two to help you pull the
panels into position.
Have fun with your project!
I'm probably a couple months behind Randy on my own Micro project (gonna buy
the plans later this month). Based on threads encountered on various
boatbuilding lists over the past few years, and my own experience with it
for shop projects, I'd thought of building my Micro out of 3/8" MDO. I think
it's cheaper than true 'marine grade' but better than standard exterior
ply......I've read elsewhere that this 'sign quality' plywood is made of fir
glued with marine-grade glue to withstand years in the weather; the stuff
I've used is always very high quality, virtually no voids, the 1/2" has 5
plies of about the same thickness (haven't looked at 3/8" yet, though my
local lumberyard says they can get it) and that epoxy/paper coating they put
on it at the factory would solve the issues of getting a good finish. It is
heavy, and also more rigid than regular ply, so I wonder about bending 3/8"
MDO to the curves of a Micro.... Anyone ever used this for a Bolger boat? If
so, how'd it work out?
My mother-in-law's visiting, leaves Saturday, so I can't stick a chunk of
MDO in the dishwasher until then, but I think I'll try it, see how it holds
up....
Paul Lefebvre
down in Woods Hole....
the plans later this month). Based on threads encountered on various
boatbuilding lists over the past few years, and my own experience with it
for shop projects, I'd thought of building my Micro out of 3/8" MDO. I think
it's cheaper than true 'marine grade' but better than standard exterior
ply......I've read elsewhere that this 'sign quality' plywood is made of fir
glued with marine-grade glue to withstand years in the weather; the stuff
I've used is always very high quality, virtually no voids, the 1/2" has 5
plies of about the same thickness (haven't looked at 3/8" yet, though my
local lumberyard says they can get it) and that epoxy/paper coating they put
on it at the factory would solve the issues of getting a good finish. It is
heavy, and also more rigid than regular ply, so I wonder about bending 3/8"
MDO to the curves of a Micro.... Anyone ever used this for a Bolger boat? If
so, how'd it work out?
My mother-in-law's visiting, leaves Saturday, so I can't stick a chunk of
MDO in the dishwasher until then, but I think I'll try it, see how it holds
up....
Paul Lefebvre
down in Woods Hole....
> From: randall robar [mailto:rrobar@...]
> Subject: [bolger] Plywood: Fir or Okoume?
> Question: Why use Okoume when marine fir is half the price? (I've
> searched through all the messages and these seem the most popular
> choices, but there's no clear 'winner.')
>
> Cheers,
> randy
> grounded in Boston
I own boats that I have built of both.
It seems to me that each time this issue is visited the users of fir,
myself included, feel sheathing in glass and epoxy is a must. The
users of okoume, again myself included, rave about how nice it is to
work with and how wonderful the quality is, and how nicely and
quickly it takes a fine finish.
If you are not sheathing okoume with glass, the money saved and the
labor saved might make the cost rather close to that of fir+glass.
The rot issue with okoume is, I feel, a bit overblown, the wood as a
lumber is rated as moderately to moderately low durable -whatever
that
means-, but when the best logs are manufactured to BS1088 standards
into a high quality product and used in boatbuilding with provision
to
keep standing fresh water out, it lasts longer than most people.(My
opinion through observation and reading others experiences). Okoume
when allowed to absorb fresh water through the end grain, and kept
moist with temps between 50f and 110f will provide and excellent
enviroment for wood decaying fungis to thrive, but the same happens
to
all wood.
Something to consider with 3/8" ply. SOME 3/8" is made of only 3plys
with one thick core and two thin outer skins. This should not be used
as any problem with the core (voids, splits, defects etc.) will cause
you lots of grief.
A 4' X 8' sheet of 3/8" Okoume weighs 24 lbs
A 4' X 8' sheet of 3/8" douglas fir weighs 31 lbs
Rick
It seems to me that each time this issue is visited the users of fir,
myself included, feel sheathing in glass and epoxy is a must. The
users of okoume, again myself included, rave about how nice it is to
work with and how wonderful the quality is, and how nicely and
quickly it takes a fine finish.
If you are not sheathing okoume with glass, the money saved and the
labor saved might make the cost rather close to that of fir+glass.
The rot issue with okoume is, I feel, a bit overblown, the wood as a
lumber is rated as moderately to moderately low durable -whatever
that
means-, but when the best logs are manufactured to BS1088 standards
into a high quality product and used in boatbuilding with provision
to
keep standing fresh water out, it lasts longer than most people.(My
opinion through observation and reading others experiences). Okoume
when allowed to absorb fresh water through the end grain, and kept
moist with temps between 50f and 110f will provide and excellent
enviroment for wood decaying fungis to thrive, but the same happens
to
all wood.
Something to consider with 3/8" ply. SOME 3/8" is made of only 3plys
with one thick core and two thin outer skins. This should not be used
as any problem with the core (voids, splits, defects etc.) will cause
you lots of grief.
A 4' X 8' sheet of 3/8" Okoume weighs 24 lbs
A 4' X 8' sheet of 3/8" douglas fir weighs 31 lbs
Rick
Randy - welcome to the family!
I'm building a Micro using 10 mm (3/8") okoume, doubled at the
bottom. I had no choices here in Italy because fir plywood is very
unusual. I purchased 11 sheets, each 3.1x1.53 meters, 5 plies, for
about 500 US$ (used to be more a few months ago, but the dollar is
going up so fast...). This is not properly certified as marine
plywood, which would cost at least twice as much, but it's referred
to as marine plywood indeed. Another nice thing is that okoume is
significantly (30%) lighter than fir. On the other end, I'm pretty
sure that Micro's scantlings were based on fir plywood. Generally
speaking, I'd say that any plywood certified as WBP should be ok for
the Micro: for instance, Gregg used Superply for his Light Schooner,
and there are many other varieties, such as Birch, which are
perfectly acceptable.Good luck with your project, and keep us posted
Best
Pippo
I'm building a Micro using 10 mm (3/8") okoume, doubled at the
bottom. I had no choices here in Italy because fir plywood is very
unusual. I purchased 11 sheets, each 3.1x1.53 meters, 5 plies, for
about 500 US$ (used to be more a few months ago, but the dollar is
going up so fast...). This is not properly certified as marine
plywood, which would cost at least twice as much, but it's referred
to as marine plywood indeed. Another nice thing is that okoume is
significantly (30%) lighter than fir. On the other end, I'm pretty
sure that Micro's scantlings were based on fir plywood. Generally
speaking, I'd say that any plywood certified as WBP should be ok for
the Micro: for instance, Gregg used Superply for his Light Schooner,
and there are many other varieties, such as Birch, which are
perfectly acceptable.Good luck with your project, and keep us posted
Best
Pippo
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "randall robar" <rrobar@s...> wrote:
> Hi Gang,
>
> I'm about to start building Micro (!) and will go with 3/8 ply with
> 1/2 bottom.
>
> Question: Why use Okoume when marine fir is half the price? (I've
> searched through all the messages and these seem the most popular
> choices, but there's no clear 'winner.')
>
> Cheers,
> randy
> grounded in Boston
How does the weight of Okume and Fir plywood compare, I mean the
actual weights not the weights based on published densities for
generic Okume and Fir? I suspect that some plywood manufacturers'
products are heavier than others, based on different glues and levels
of quality control. Does anyone have actual weight measurements of
plywood sheets for comparison?
Al, (in Ann Arbor)
actual weights not the weights based on published densities for
generic Okume and Fir? I suspect that some plywood manufacturers'
products are heavier than others, based on different glues and levels
of quality control. Does anyone have actual weight measurements of
plywood sheets for comparison?
Al, (in Ann Arbor)
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, GHC <ghartc@p...> wrote:
> There won't be, because they are both suitable.
>
> Fir is strong, but is splintery and will check without sheathing
with
> glass. Okume is more pleasant to saw and sand - just imagine the
> difference in joining nice, buttery mahogany and hard, splintery
fir
(or
> southern pine). Firs, pines have seasonal growth with early (soft)
and
> late (hard) wood, so they don't sand or work as well. Tropical
woods are
> more homogeneous and more pleasant to work.
>
> I *think* fir may be more rot resistant than okume, but I would bet
the
> okume is higher-quality with more plys and fewer voids.
>
> Gregg Carlson
>
>
> At 02:57 PM 9/7/2000 -0000, you wrote:
> >I'm about to start building Micro (!) and will go with 3/8 ply
with
> >1/2 bottom.
> >
> >Question: Why use Okoume when marine fir is half the price?
(I've
> >searched through all the messages and these seem the most popular
> >choices, but there's no clear 'winner.')
> >
> >Cheers,
> >randy
> >grounded in Boston
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing
> >- stay on topic
> >- use punctuation
> >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> >- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> >
> >
There won't be, because they are both suitable.
Fir is strong, but is splintery and will check without sheathing with
glass. Okume is more pleasant to saw and sand - just imagine the
difference in joining nice, buttery mahogany and hard, splintery fir (or
southern pine). Firs, pines have seasonal growth with early (soft) and
late (hard) wood, so they don't sand or work as well. Tropical woods are
more homogeneous and more pleasant to work.
I *think* fir may be more rot resistant than okume, but I would bet the
okume is higher-quality with more plys and fewer voids.
Gregg Carlson
At 02:57 PM 9/7/2000 -0000, you wrote:
Fir is strong, but is splintery and will check without sheathing with
glass. Okume is more pleasant to saw and sand - just imagine the
difference in joining nice, buttery mahogany and hard, splintery fir (or
southern pine). Firs, pines have seasonal growth with early (soft) and
late (hard) wood, so they don't sand or work as well. Tropical woods are
more homogeneous and more pleasant to work.
I *think* fir may be more rot resistant than okume, but I would bet the
okume is higher-quality with more plys and fewer voids.
Gregg Carlson
At 02:57 PM 9/7/2000 -0000, you wrote:
>I'm about to start building Micro (!) and will go with 3/8 ply with
>1/2 bottom.
>
>Question: Why use Okoume when marine fir is half the price? (I've
>searched through all the messages and these seem the most popular
>choices, but there's no clear 'winner.')
>
>Cheers,
>randy
>grounded in Boston
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing
>- stay on topic
>- use punctuation
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
>
I would vote for fir. Okoume is nice looking and easy to work with. However,
it has very low resistance to rot. It is glued together with waterproof
adhesives and sold as marine ply but is actually a poor choice for woods
that get wet. I have replaced several bulkheads on my boat the were Okoume.
They wicked water and rotted out (before I owned the boat).
My $0.02
Paul W. Esterle
Capt'n Pauley Video Productions
423.989.3159
S/V Bryn Awel, Columbia 10.7
Bristol, Tenn. USA
http://www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
http://pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
it has very low resistance to rot. It is glued together with waterproof
adhesives and sold as marine ply but is actually a poor choice for woods
that get wet. I have replaced several bulkheads on my boat the were Okoume.
They wicked water and rotted out (before I owned the boat).
My $0.02
Paul W. Esterle
Capt'n Pauley Video Productions
423.989.3159
S/V Bryn Awel, Columbia 10.7
Bristol, Tenn. USA
http://www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
http://pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
----- Original Message -----
From: "randall robar" <rrobar@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 10:57 AM
Subject: [bolger] Plywood: Fir or Okoume?
>
> Hi Gang,
>
> I'm about to start building Micro (!) and will go with 3/8 ply with
> 1/2 bottom.
>
> Question: Why use Okoume when marine fir is half the price? (I've
> searched through all the messages and these seem the most popular
> choices, but there's no clear 'winner.')
>
> Cheers,
> randy
> grounded in Boston
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
Hi Gang,
I'm about to start building Micro (!) and will go with 3/8 ply with
1/2 bottom.
Question: Why use Okoume when marine fir is half the price? (I've
searched through all the messages and these seem the most popular
choices, but there's no clear 'winner.')
Cheers,
randy
grounded in Boston
I'm about to start building Micro (!) and will go with 3/8 ply with
1/2 bottom.
Question: Why use Okoume when marine fir is half the price? (I've
searched through all the messages and these seem the most popular
choices, but there's no clear 'winner.')
Cheers,
randy
grounded in Boston