Re: steel plate on sharpie bottom


How about #487 Weston Martyr? W M with a solid half inch thick steel bottom reminds of the Max Gunning designed series of steel Dutch boats.

Sir Percy Wyn-Harris banged about the coral reefs of the world in his "Spurwing", a Gunning Grundel. Alan Lucas, author a swag of coral cruising books, maintains these are the best of all yachts for cruising in coral. No worries at all about running aground or getting back off. Wyn-Harris didn't ever antifoul either. He carried a garden hoe to deal with any growth that wasn't knocked off by his bumping into things. He'd set the boat on a reef to wait for the bottom of the tide and attack the bottom of the hull with the hoe. He'd have it scraped clean in no time. Thickness of the bottom plate meant rust wasn't going to be a worry...

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/62025


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Wyn-Harris#Retirement_and_death


https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/nautical-miles-on-new-french-svs.35026/#post408562


https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/larger-steel-version-of-paradox.54334/page-2#post-759461


Spurwing
Hereunder a note on Spurwing’s journeyings in 1966 from Sir Percy Wyn Harris and some parts of his personal log of Spurwing’s voyage:

http://www.alcyone-archive.org/newsletter-nr-8-february-1967



A pity they are now so rare. None were owner built and increasing yard production costs killed them, apparently.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe the thing to do is build in the style of "Lion's Paw" (BWAOM)..   
One could hire a company that builds water tanks to CNC cut/weld sides
and the bottom. Steel sides could come up to the shear line.  Build
frames to support the sides during the welding process.  I'd likely hire
a pro to do the chine seam with TIG welding gear to get a leak free
seam.  Then build up the interior, and deck with wood.  A cheap wire
feed welder would secure angle steel tabs to bolt wood pieces in as
needed.  Many of the sharpies could be build this way,

Congrats on the find, and best wishes in getting it rigged.

Will do later this evening.

Right now working on my new toy. An 8 ft optimist pram. Got it for a song on Craigs list. Though trying to figure out how it is rigged....missing a few little key parts I think....off the internet and probably the hardware/marine store soon.


-----Original Message-----
From: philbolger@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 6, 2018 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Thanks for the note, Bill.
How about a copy of the best to this office here atphilbolger@....?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Wednesday, June 06, 2018 3:19 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 


My Old Shoe (not built by me...) has a full aluminum hull.
 
It does have a forward bouyancy compartment and a large rear one.  The builder said the two combined would float twice the weight of the boat. And the ballast is removable....though it sure would be nice if it was  six 40 lb blocks and not four sixty pound blocks....my girly arms aren't quite rated to 60 lbs.
 
Even so I am a bit nervous about tipping the boat..and given that I've only had it out about a dozen times and don't KNOW the tipping point....getting tilted gets me a little more nervous than it did in the past.




I do intend to do some things to add even more bouyancy / redundancy / saftey to the boat...
 
But yeah...a metal boat that will sink like a rock if things go south does give one pause....
 
 
Oh PS. I have some cool pics of the boat. Who should I send them to viewed/archived.
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Schultzdaschultz8275@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2018 5:22 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
x

I really hadn't considered expansion of a 25' armor/ballast to be a
problem for a plywood boat. Thank you Susan, for the careful
engineering.  I had thought to use carriage bolts through oversize
fiberglass clad holes and 5200 to fill the gap. My thought is to build a
Martha Jane without water ballast.    So 4' sections could maybe be done
with a gap to allow for size changes.

Maybe the thing to do is build in the style of "Lion's Paw" (BWAOM)..   
One could hire a company that builds water tanks to CNC cut/weld sides
and the bottom. Steel sides could come up to the shear line.  Build
frames to support the sides during the welding process.  I'd likely hire
a pro to do the chine seam with TIG welding gear to get a leak free
seam.  Then build up the interior, and deck with wood.  A cheap wire
feed welder would secure angle steel tabs to bolt wood pieces in as
needed.  Many of the sharpies could be build this way, Black
Skimmer/Gauntlet, Martha Jane, AS- x, Old Shoe, etc.  Not that an open
boat like Old Shoe should be steel.  A simple inconvenient knock down
becomes a total loss.

--
Don Schultz

Thanks for the note, Bill.
How about a copy of the best to this office here atphilbolger@....?
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Wednesday, June 06, 2018 3:19 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 



My Old Shoe (not built by me...) has a full aluminum hull.

 
It does have a forward bouyancy compartment and a large rear one.  The builder said the two combined would float twice the weight of the boat. And the ballast is removable....though it sure would be nice if it was  six 40 lb blocks and not four sixty pound blocks....my girly arms aren't quite rated to 60 lbs.
 
Even so I am a bit nervous about tipping the boat..and given that I've only had it out about a dozen times and don't KNOW the tipping point....getting tilted gets me a little more nervous than it did in the past.




I do intend to do some things to add even more bouyancy / redundancy / saftey to the boat...
 
But yeah...a metal boat that will sink like a rock if things go south does give one pause....
 
 
Oh PS. I have some cool pics of the boat. Who should I send them to viewed/archived.
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Schultz daschultz8275@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2018 5:22 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
x

I really hadn't considered expansion of a 25' armor/ballast to be a
problem for a plywood boat. Thank you Susan, for the careful
engineering.  I had thought to use carriage bolts through oversize
fiberglass clad holes and 5200 to fill the gap. My thought is to build a
Martha Jane without water ballast.    So 4' sections could maybe be done
with a gap to allow for size changes.

Maybe the thing to do is build in the style of "Lion's Paw" (BWAOM)..   
One could hire a company that builds water tanks to CNC cut/weld sides
and the bottom. Steel sides could come up to the shear line.  Build
frames to support the sides during the welding process.  I'd likely hire
a pro to do the chine seam with TIG welding gear to get a leak free
seam.  Then build up the interior, and deck with wood.  A cheap wire
feed welder would secure angle steel tabs to bolt wood pieces in as
needed.  Many of the sharpies could be build this way, Black
Skimmer/Gauntlet, Martha Jane, AS- x, Old Shoe, etc.  Not that an open
boat like Old Shoe should be steel.  A simple inconvenient knock down
becomes a total loss.

--
Don Schultz



My Old Shoe (not built by me...) has a full aluminum hull.

It does have a forward bouyancy compartment and a large rear one.  The builder said the two combined would float twice the weight of the boat. And the ballast is removable....though it sure would be nice if it was  six 40 lb blocks and not four sixty pound blocks....my girly arms aren't quite rated to 60 lbs.

Even so I am a bit nervous about tipping the boat..and given that I've only had it out about a dozen times and don't KNOW the tipping point....getting tilted gets me a little more nervous than it did in the past.




I do intend to do some things to add even more bouyancy / redundancy / saftey to the boat...

But yeah...a metal boat that will sink like a rock if things go south does give one pause....


Oh PS. I have some cool pics of the boat. Who should I send them to viewed/archived.



-----Original Message-----
From: Don Schultz daschultz8275@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2018 5:22 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
x

I really hadn't considered expansion of a 25' armor/ballast to be a
problem for a plywood boat. Thank you Susan, for the careful
engineering.  I had thought to use carriage bolts through oversize
fiberglass clad holes and 5200 to fill the gap. My thought is to build a
Martha Jane without water ballast.    So 4' sections could maybe be done
with a gap to allow for size changes.

Maybe the thing to do is build in the style of "Lion's Paw" (BWAOM)..   
One could hire a company that builds water tanks to CNC cut/weld sides
and the bottom. Steel sides could come up to the shear line.  Build
frames to support the sides during the welding process.  I'd likely hire
a pro to do the chine seam with TIG welding gear to get a leak free
seam.  Then build up the interior, and deck with wood.  A cheap wire
feed welder would secure angle steel tabs to bolt wood pieces in as
needed.  Many of the sharpies could be build this way, Black
Skimmer/Gauntlet, Martha Jane, AS- x, Old Shoe, etc.  Not that an open
boat like Old Shoe should be steel.  A simple inconvenient knock down
becomes a total loss.

--
Don Schultz

I would not build an MJ without water ballast. Heck, the original was modified to have stern sponsons , an enlarged superstructure to increase buoyancy AND steel ballast to assist the water ballast. 

Leigh Ross

484-464-1575 (C)



On Jun 4, 2018, at 18:22, Don Schultzdaschultz8275@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

x

I really hadn't considered expansion of a 25' armor/ballast to be a
problem for a plywood boat. Thank you Susan, for the careful
engineering.  I had thought to use carriage bolts through oversize
fiberglass clad holes and 5200 to fill the gap. My thought is to build a
Martha Jane without water ballast.    So 4' sections could maybe be done
with a gap to allow for size changes.

Maybe the thing to do is build in the style of "Lion's Paw" (BWAOM)..   
One could hire a company that builds water tanks to CNC cut/weld sides
and the bottom. Steel sides could come up to the shear line.  Build
frames to support the sides during the welding process.  I'd likely hire
a pro to do the chine seam with TIG welding gear to get a leak free
seam.  Then build up the interior, and deck with wood.  A cheap wire
feed welder would secure angle steel tabs to bolt wood pieces in as
needed.  Many of the sharpies could be build this way, Black
Skimmer/Gauntlet, Martha Jane, AS- x, Old Shoe, etc.  Not that an open
boat like Old Shoe should be steel.  A simple inconvenient knock down
becomes a total loss.

--
Don Schultz

Hello Don,
     You could keep that gap to under an 1/8 of an inch, except, that (mere-mortal-) minor irregularities doing this work would better better managed with a 1/4” gap, to be filled with some glob – or 3M 4200 or 5200 - to smooth out the flow.
 
As to building a small steel hull that will need ballast to function under sail, to be topped-off with ply/epoxy/glass, (likely) several items of concern:
1. The differences in expansion between sub-freezing in winter-storage and highway-transport through southern summers may end up presenting you with the same unstoppable dramatics – this time in reverse - , we were concerned with the one-piece long-length steel-ballast shoe idea.
Across such temperature-extremes, you’d likely see the metal hull move differently more than the ply-deck, and thus the bulkhead-connections, the ply-to-steel seam, etc.
As you suggest, 39’ LION’s PAW (in 30-ODD Boats) was indeed built this way, however in Florida to be cruised in Southern climes – meaning no major changes beyond the rare snow-flakes ’down south’.

2. LION’s PAW did have likely ‘problem-areas’ built into her with each steel-to-ply joint, where temperature-related movement and condensation will offer serious hard-to-repair grief, from fasteners moving, water-excluding seam-glob aging, with potentially whole bulkheads and deck-areas affected by wood-rot, with serious marinating of the ply in nasty chemicals possible to keep this way off, except that many of those may eat the steel faster... and at least may never paint well. 
 
3. To plausibly insulate a small metal hull to make it halfway inhabitable across days and weeks of a cruise is a real challenge, without building-in rust-traps you won’t likely know about until the disappearing steel bubbles the outside-paint coat with its last remaining molecular matrix - near-impossible to then fix under, say, spray-in foam, with ‘sub-terrainean’ rust metastasizing quietly everywhere and nowhere until its too late to stop.
4. To build a ballast-receiving hull in steel to a modest size like M.J. at 23’+ will possibly require going quite thin-skinned light on the plating, something that together with the hidden rust problem can make for a short-lived structure.
Again, LION’s PAW, by contrast, measures near 39 feet with a projected cruising-displacement of 15,000lbs vs M.J.’s 2,300lbs 
 
All-ply/epoxy/glass plus external steel-plate ballast LOOSE MOOSE–2 type “Anemone” has yet to report any problems with this much easier to procure, prep, handle, and install 4’x4’ plate approach with 1/2” steel in her case; could be smaller of course for MARTHA JANE.
Good issues to chew on.  And observable is Phil’s shifting for most such hulls towards all-plywood/epoxy/fiberglass gain, with later our optional addition of external steel(or copper-/or bronze-)-plate ballast as more or less the more desirable balance of competing attributes...

Now back to my dinner...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F


Sent:Monday, June 04, 2018 6:22 PM
Subject:[bolger] Re: steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

x

I really hadn't considered expansion of a 25' armor/ballast to be a
problem for a plywood boat. Thank you Susan, for the careful
engineering.  I had thought to use carriage bolts through oversize
fiberglass clad holes and 5200 to fill the gap. My thought is to build a
Martha Jane without water ballast.    So 4' sections could maybe be done
with a gap to allow for size changes.

Maybe the thing to do is build in the style of "Lion's Paw" (BWAOM)..   
One could hire a company that builds water tanks to CNC cut/weld sides
and the bottom. Steel sides could come up to the shear line.  Build
frames to support the sides during the welding process.  I'd likely hire
a pro to do the chine seam with TIG welding gear to get a leak free
seam.  Then build up the interior, and deck with wood.  A cheap wire
feed welder would secure angle steel tabs to bolt wood pieces in as
needed.  Many of the sharpies could be build this way, Black
Skimmer/Gauntlet, Martha Jane, AS- x, Old Shoe, etc.  Not that an open
boat like Old Shoe should be steel.  A simple inconvenient knock down
becomes a total loss.

--
Don Schultz

x

I really hadn't considered expansion of a 25' armor/ballast to be a
problem for a plywood boat. Thank you Susan, for the careful
engineering.  I had thought to use carriage bolts through oversize
fiberglass clad holes and 5200 to fill the gap. My thought is to build a
Martha Jane without water ballast.    So 4' sections could maybe be done
with a gap to allow for size changes.

Maybe the thing to do is build in the style of "Lion's Paw" (BWAOM)..
One could hire a company that builds water tanks to CNC cut/weld sides
and the bottom. Steel sides could come up to the shear line.  Build
frames to support the sides during the welding process.  I'd likely hire
a pro to do the chine seam with TIG welding gear to get a leak free
seam.  Then build up the interior, and deck with wood.  A cheap wire
feed welder would secure angle steel tabs to bolt wood pieces in as
needed.  Many of the sharpies could be build this way, Black
Skimmer/Gauntlet, Martha Jane, AS- x, Old Shoe, etc.  Not that an open
boat like Old Shoe should be steel.  A simple inconvenient knock down
becomes a total loss.

--
Don Schultz
Our specs for external bolt-on steel-plate ballast have always extended the steel between 1/4 and 1/2” beyond the chine, with no serious regard to ‘flow’ concerns’ in comparison to the obvious gains protecting the structure.

We’ve limited the total length to manageable 4’ length to see next to no expansion/contraction issues.
Running the numbers on a 25’+ one-piece bottom will produce remarkable movement that will do a number on the fasteners, the plywood-bottom, with leaks, rot, corrosion competing with each other.

We covered this in an MAIB piece on the occasion of an LM-2 build in Quebec that integrated this option into her hull.
Not yet any bad news many years later.

For ice-duty, we’d add separate pieces through the topsides to indeed extend well above the waterline.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 
 
Sent:Saturday, June 02, 2018 10:43 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Off the top of my head

1. Weld bottom plate with side plates making sure they are 6" above WL when completed.
2. Weld tabs inside for frame attachments.
3. Sandblast
4. Three coats epoxy in n out.
5. Paint inside/antifoul out
6. Flip right side up, continue build as usual.
7. High flex polyurethane at steel/wood joint. Any quality urethane from Sika, Tremco, or the likes will work well, at least 1/2 the price of 5200. Would not trust the urethanes underwater, all the manufactures specify that is not a proper application for their products.

This provides at least 3 distinct advantages.
1. The hull is now protected where impacts would most likely occur - the chines.
2. If above procedures are followed its pretty much maintenance free for years and easy to inspect.
3. A more manageable build process.


From:"a.sobriquet@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:17 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
Bill,
Lot's of good things about aluminum, but at 1/3 the density of steel (which in turn is only 2/3 the density of lead), you'd have to have a lot of it to act as ballast.
A.S.


---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <BllFs6@...> wrote :

 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 


Off the top of my head

1. Weld bottom plate with side plates making sure they are 6" above WL when completed.
2. Weld tabs inside for frame attachments.
3. Sandblast
4. Three coats epoxy in n out.
5. Paint inside/antifoul out
6. Flip right side up, continue build as usual.
7. High flex polyurethane at steel/wood joint. Any quality urethane from Sika, Tremco, or the likes will work well, at least 1/2 the price of 5200. Would not trust the urethanes underwater, all the manufactures specify that is not a proper application for their products.

This provides at least 3 distinct advantages.
1. The hull is now protected where impacts would most likely occur - the chines.
2. If above procedures are followed its pretty much maintenance free for years and easy to inspect.
3. A more manageable build process.


From:"a.sobriquet@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:17 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Bill,
Lot's of good things about aluminum, but at 1/3 the density of steel (which in turn is only 2/3 the density of lead), you'd have to have a lot of it to act as ballast.
A.S.


---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <BllFs6@...> wrote :


My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?



What is your private e-mail ?

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:12 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Susanne,
Thank you for your kind offer. I would appreciate receiving the LM-2 pdf.
A.S.


---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote :

The office of Phil Bolger here.
Thank you for your interest in this matter.
 
Send your e-mail address and an MAIB discussion of the method will be supplied as a pdf.
It was successfully applied during the LM-2 (#576) project in Montreal.

To summarize:
- no piece longer than approx. 4’x4’ to keep temperature-related movement between –20 C. to +50 C. near imperceptible;
- countersunk holes through steel-plate with through-bolts bedded in 3M 5200 in plate and through slightly oversized holes in the hull-bottom-proper;
- on inside of hull-bottom use of washers and fender-washers for least wood-crushing, all bedded with 3M 5200;
- all pieces pre-curved by the same local metal-shop that supplied you with the steel by following the hull-design in its definition of its bottom-curve;
- galvanizing is one option via a local/regional ‘hot-dip’ galvanizing facility;
- the Montreal project used high-end epoxy-coating on both sides;
- you’d want to round over all corners and edges to reduce risk of cracking of coating;
- each piece is installed with a perimeter bead of 3M-5200 and a circular bead around each fastener-hole to permanently keep the water out and prevent corrosion of the inside-surface up against the hull;
- outside damage to coating will be inflicted from grounding out over ties, beachings, and glancing blows running over things;
- however, it will take a long time to corrode through 1/2” steel;
- or forever if you could afford straight copper...or bronze...assuming its gauge will be adjusted to arrive at the same weight as the steel;
- with that copper a de facto liquidatable asset/get-out-of-jail card when your currency is low, you’d always have a ‘piggy-bank’ - if you can afford the initial investment... – one that cannot be casually stolen, devalued, confiscated, especially if you tell no one !

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 

Bill,
Lot's of good things about aluminum, but at 1/3 the density of steel (which in turn is only 2/3 the density of lead), you'd have to have a lot of it to act as ballast.
A.S.


---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <BllFs6@...> wrote :


My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?

Susanne,
Thank you for your kind offer. I would appreciate receiving the LM-2 pdf.
A.S.


---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <philbolger@...> wrote :

The office of Phil Bolger here.
Thank you for your interest in this matter.
 
Send your e-mail address and an MAIB discussion of the method will be supplied as a pdf.
It was successfully applied during the LM-2 (#576) project in Montreal.

To summarize:
- no piece longer than approx. 4’x4’ to keep temperature-related movement between –20 C. to +50 C. near imperceptible;
- countersunk holes through steel-plate with through-bolts bedded in 3M 5200 in plate and through slightly oversized holes in the hull-bottom-proper;
- on inside of hull-bottom use of washers and fender-washers for least wood-crushing, all bedded with 3M 5200;
- all pieces pre-curved by the same local metal-shop that supplied you with the steel by following the hull-design in its definition of its bottom-curve;
- galvanizing is one option via a local/regional ‘hot-dip’ galvanizing facility;
- the Montreal project used high-end epoxy-coating on both sides;
- you’d want to round over all corners and edges to reduce risk of cracking of coating;
- each piece is installed with a perimeter bead of 3M-5200 and a circular bead around each fastener-hole to permanently keep the water out and prevent corrosion of the inside-surface up against the hull;
- outside damage to coating will be inflicted from grounding out over ties, beachings, and glancing blows running over things;
- however, it will take a long time to corrode through 1/2” steel;
- or forever if you could afford straight copper...or bronze...assuming its gauge will be adjusted to arrive at the same weight as the steel;
- with that copper a de facto liquidatable asset/get-out-of-jail card when your currency is low, you’d always have a ‘piggy-bank’ - if you can afford the initial investment... – one that cannot be casually stolen, devalued, confiscated, especially if you tell no one ! 

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Mk.3 of #666 has not been published.

Dreaming is good. ‘Dream-‘ and ‘Paper’-Boats can be therapeutic when life gets too demanding...
Zero-in on your priorities, make that list, revise it endlessly, and eventually you are likely to at least know what you’d want if you could.
Let me know if and when.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 3:34 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009
 
 

Interesting...  I'd love to see study plans of that most recent generation of they're around somewhere.
 
I'm in the "dreaming" stage; worked on a classic Chris-Craft restore a long time ago, have built a couple of skiffs/sailing skiffs and canoes over the years, and just recently bought a new home with enough space to consider playing again, but can't afford to do so because I bought the new house... :)
 
--Gabriel
 
From:"philbolger@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 2:00:32 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009
 
 
Oh, Gabriel, we’ve sure pursued this this way and that.
The most flamboyant one so far would be Design #666 INSOLENT 60, a trailerable 60’x7’6”x1017ft of sail go-fast sharpie-schooner, all folding up to around 30’ on the trailer, written up in MAIB Vol. 19 No.14. Dec.1, 2001.
Yes, indeed, a double-jointer like LCU-F. 

But since giving her that chronologically-correct Design Number, we had second and third thoughts towards reducing the inherent liabilities of such a radical geometry... under sail !!
So, by mid-2018, the third approach remains ‘on ice’, but aging gracefully, awaiting an opening amidst the must-dos, to finally get her finished with a foot more beam, 4+ bunks, a hard-dinghy in her bow-module, cockpit in her stern-module, and 50/60HP large-prop outboard and all the heavy stuff around that ‘wild’ pivoting wing-keel that should keep the whole mania upright with reasonable plausibilities.


Apart from this ‘maximum trailer-sailer’, you may want to define your particular wish-list, contact this office, and then see whether we could kick this around some...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 

  
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009
 
 
Thanks, Susanne!  Nice to see the whole article in one place with the illustrations and diagrams.
 
I followed a number of articles about this design, and find it fascinating.  I think of ways to use similar technologies to build a folding power/sail cruiser, and have been doodling ideas for a couple of years now (not that I'm a naval architect, engineer, or anything other than a really good tech guy... ;)... ).
 
--Gabriel
 
From:"philbolger@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:58:04 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009
 
 
And for those curious about LCU-F, here an online-copy of the July’13 article in the PROCEEDINGS of the US Naval Institute, published on the campus of the US Naval Academy in Annapolis MD:https://www.scribd.com/document/219412911/LCU-F
Also check out PROCEEDINGS of June’14 in US Marine Corps boss GEN Amos’ article on ‘The Connector-Gap’, a Letter in the Dec.‘15 issue, and most recently the Nov’17 piece by USMC’s Col. King.

The fisheries-challenges in MAIB across too many issues.

However, in MAIB mostly more design-concepts to come.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:50 AM
Subject:[bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009 [1 Attachment]
 
 
He is constantly missing here.
The place may never feel ‘right’.
However, a lot of heavy lifting has gotten done in the pursuit of the kind of design-philosophy he developed, we together pushed further, I am adding to – as he had hoped it would be.
Well over 100 articles in MAIB, the ‘disruptive’ LCU-F for the US Navy, the ever-so-hands-on 39’ SACPAS-3/GADABOUT boat-building exercise, Fisheries-politics, local Port-politics, etc.

And certainly more ‘lifting’ ongoing and on the schedule, with quite a bit certainly way overdue.
Good thing that major distractions and energy black-holes have been resolved, or are being wrapped up.
The working assumption is – at it has been for so long – that ‘full-steam’ ahead will actual come to indeed mean what it implies on matters Bolger Archive, -books, further opening up of design-work never published.

So, there is only the optimistic way ahead, with lots of intriguing and satisfying projects as far as the eye can see.


Susanne Altenburger, widow to Phil Bolger, collaborator in design and politics between 1994 and 2009.
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:10 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
Sharpie-hulls seem amongst the few options to design, build and run a stout hull-bottom structure to indeed sit on or sail over hard and softer bottom without an immediate hull-damage nightmare unfolding.
And under sail, there is the least-draft ‘chine-sailing’ option for broad-teaching across truly skinny waters – impossible in any other hull-type, without an additional shallow keel and thus more draft.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:56 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
Alu-ballast with steel-bolts on a plywood hull ??
Naah...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:30 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
 
 

 
 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 
Interesting...  I'd love to see study plans of that most recent generation of they're around somewhere.

I'm in the "dreaming" stage; worked on a classic Chris-Craft restore a long time ago, have built a couple of skiffs/sailing skiffs and canoes over the years, and just recently bought a new home with enough space to consider playing again, but can't afford to do so because I bought the new house... :)

--Gabriel

From:"philbolger@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 2:00:32 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009

 

Oh, Gabriel, we’ve sure pursued this this way and that.
The most flamboyant one so far would be Design #666 INSOLENT 60, a trailerable 60’x7’6”x1017ft of sail go-fast sharpie-schooner, all folding up to around 30’ on the trailer, written up in MAIB Vol. 19 No.14. Dec.1, 2001.
Yes, indeed, a double-jointer like LCU-F. 

But since giving her that chronologically-correct Design Number, we had second and third thoughts towards reducing the inherent liabilities of such a radical geometry... under sail !!
So, by mid-2018, the third approach remains ‘on ice’, but aging gracefully, awaiting an opening amidst the must-dos, to finally get her finished with a foot more beam, 4+ bunks, a hard-dinghy in her bow-module, cockpit in her stern-module, and 50/60HP large-prop outboard and all the heavy stuff around that ‘wild’ pivoting wing-keel that should keep the whole mania upright with reasonable plausibilities.


Apart from this ‘maximum trailer-sailer’, you may want to define your particular wish-list, contact this office, and then see whether we could kick this around some...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 

  
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009
 
 

Thanks, Susanne!  Nice to see the whole article in one place with the illustrations and diagrams.
 
I followed a number of articles about this design, and find it fascinating.  I think of ways to use similar technologies to build a folding power/sail cruiser, and have been doodling ideas for a couple of years now (not that I'm a naval architect, engineer, or anything other than a really good tech guy... ;)... ).
 
--Gabriel
 
From:"philbolger@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:58:04 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009
 
 
And for those curious about LCU-F, here an online-copy of the July’13 article in the PROCEEDINGS of the US Naval Institute, published on the campus of the US Naval Academy in Annapolis MD:https://www.scribd.com/document/219412911/LCU-F
Also check out PROCEEDINGS of June’14 in US Marine Corps boss GEN Amos’ article on ‘The Connector-Gap’, a Letter in the Dec.‘15 issue, and most recently the Nov’17 piece by USMC’s Col. King.

The fisheries-challenges in MAIB across too many issues.

However, in MAIB mostly more design-concepts to come.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:50 AM
Subject:[bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009 [1 Attachment]
 
 
He is constantly missing here.
The place may never feel ‘right’.
However, a lot of heavy lifting has gotten done in the pursuit of the kind of design-philosophy he developed, we together pushed further, I am adding to – as he had hoped it would be.
Well over 100 articles in MAIB, the ‘disruptive’ LCU-F for the US Navy, the ever-so-hands-on 39’ SACPAS-3/GADABOUT boat-building exercise, Fisheries-politics, local Port-politics, etc.

And certainly more ‘lifting’ ongoing and on the schedule, with quite a bit certainly way overdue.
Good thing that major distractions and energy black-holes have been resolved, or are being wrapped up.
The working assumption is – at it has been for so long – that ‘full-steam’ ahead will actual come to indeed mean what it implies on matters Bolger Archive, -books, further opening up of design-work never published.

So, there is only the optimistic way ahead, with lots of intriguing and satisfying projects as far as the eye can see.


Susanne Altenburger, widow to Phil Bolger, collaborator in design and politics between 1994 and 2009.
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:10 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
Sharpie-hulls seem amongst the few options to design, build and run a stout hull-bottom structure to indeed sit on or sail over hard and softer bottom without an immediate hull-damage nightmare unfolding.
And under sail, there is the least-draft ‘chine-sailing’ option for broad-teaching across truly skinny waters – impossible in any other hull-type, without an additional shallow keel and thus more draft.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:56 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
Alu-ballast with steel-bolts on a plywood hull ??
Naah...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:30 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

 
 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 
 


Oh, Gabriel, we’ve sure pursued this this way and that.
The most flamboyant one so far would be Design #666 INSOLENT 60, a trailerable 60’x7’6”x1017ft of sail go-fast sharpie-schooner, all folding up to around 30’ on the trailer, written up in MAIB Vol. 19 No.14. Dec.1, 2001.
Yes, indeed, a double-jointer like LCU-F. 

But since giving her that chronologically-correct Design Number, we had second and third thoughts towards reducing the inherent liabilities of such a radical geometry... under sail !!
So, by mid-2018, the third approach remains ‘on ice’, but aging gracefully, awaiting an opening amidst the must-dos, to finally get her finished with a foot more beam, 4+ bunks, a hard-dinghy in her bow-module, cockpit in her stern-module, and 50/60HP large-prop outboard and all the heavy stuff around that ‘wild’ pivoting wing-keel that should keep the whole mania upright with reasonable plausibilities.


Apart from this ‘maximum trailer-sailer’, you may want to define your particular wish-list, contact this office, and then see whether we could kick this around some...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 

  
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009
 
 

Thanks, Susanne!  Nice to see the whole article in one place with the illustrations and diagrams.
 
I followed a number of articles about this design, and find it fascinating.  I think of ways to use similar technologies to build a folding power/sail cruiser, and have been doodling ideas for a couple of years now (not that I'm a naval architect, engineer, or anything other than a really good tech guy... ;)... ).
 
--Gabriel
 
From:"philbolger@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:58:04 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009
 
 
And for those curious about LCU-F, here an online-copy of the July’13 article in the PROCEEDINGS of the US Naval Institute, published on the campus of the US Naval Academy in Annapolis MD:https://www.scribd.com/document/219412911/LCU-F
Also check out PROCEEDINGS of June’14 in US Marine Corps boss GEN Amos’ article on ‘The Connector-Gap’, a Letter in the Dec.‘15 issue, and most recently the Nov’17 piece by USMC’s Col. King.

The fisheries-challenges in MAIB across too many issues.

However, in MAIB mostly more design-concepts to come.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:50 AM
Subject:[bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009 [1 Attachment]
 
 
He is constantly missing here.
The place may never feel ‘right’.
However, a lot of heavy lifting has gotten done in the pursuit of the kind of design-philosophy he developed, we together pushed further, I am adding to – as he had hoped it would be.
Well over 100 articles in MAIB, the ‘disruptive’ LCU-F for the US Navy, the ever-so-hands-on 39’ SACPAS-3/GADABOUT boat-building exercise, Fisheries-politics, local Port-politics, etc.

And certainly more ‘lifting’ ongoing and on the schedule, with quite a bit certainly way overdue.
Good thing that major distractions and energy black-holes have been resolved, or are being wrapped up.
The working assumption is – at it has been for so long – that ‘full-steam’ ahead will actual come to indeed mean what it implies on matters Bolger Archive, -books, further opening up of design-work never published.

So, there is only the optimistic way ahead, with lots of intriguing and satisfying projects as far as the eye can see.


Susanne Altenburger, widow to Phil Bolger, collaborator in design and politics between 1994 and 2009.
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:10 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
Sharpie-hulls seem amongst the few options to design, build and run a stout hull-bottom structure to indeed sit on or sail over hard and softer bottom without an immediate hull-damage nightmare unfolding.
And under sail, there is the least-draft ‘chine-sailing’ option for broad-teaching across truly skinny waters – impossible in any other hull-type, without an additional shallow keel and thus more draft.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:56 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
Alu-ballast with steel-bolts on a plywood hull ??
Naah...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:30 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 
 

 
 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 
Thanks, Susanne!  Nice to see the whole article in one place with the illustrations and diagrams.

I followed a number of articles about this design, and find it fascinating.  I think of ways to use similar technologies to build a folding power/sail cruiser, and have been doodling ideas for a couple of years now (not that I'm a naval architect, engineer, or anything other than a really good tech guy... ;)... ).

--Gabriel

From:"philbolger@... [bolger]" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:58:04 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009

 

And for those curious about LCU-F, here an online-copy of the July’13 article in the PROCEEDINGS of the US Naval Institute, published on the campus of the US Naval Academy in Annapolis MD:https://www.scribd.com/document/219412911/LCU-F
Also check out PROCEEDINGS of June’14 in US Marine Corps boss GEN Amos’ article on ‘The Connector-Gap’, a Letter in the Dec.‘15 issue, and most recently the Nov’17 piece by USMC’s Col. King.

The fisheries-challenges in MAIB across too many issues.

However, in MAIB mostly more design-concepts to come.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:50 AM
Subject:[bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009 [1 Attachment]
 
 

He is constantly missing here.
The place may never feel ‘right’.
However, a lot of heavy lifting has gotten done in the pursuit of the kind of design-philosophy he developed, we together pushed further, I am adding to – as he had hoped it would be.
Well over 100 articles in MAIB, the ‘disruptive’ LCU-F for the US Navy, the ever-so-hands-on 39’ SACPAS-3/GADABOUT boat-building exercise, Fisheries-politics, local Port-politics, etc.

And certainly more ‘lifting’ ongoing and on the schedule, with quite a bit certainly way overdue.
Good thing that major distractions and energy black-holes have been resolved, or are being wrapped up.
The working assumption is – at it has been for so long – that ‘full-steam’ ahead will actual come to indeed mean what it implies on matters Bolger Archive, -books, further opening up of design-work never published.

So, there is only the optimistic way ahead, with lots of intriguing and satisfying projects as far as the eye can see.


Susanne Altenburger, widow to Phil Bolger, collaborator in design and politics between 1994 and 2009.
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:10 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Sharpie-hulls seem amongst the few options to design, build and run a stout hull-bottom structure to indeed sit on or sail over hard and softer bottom without an immediate hull-damage nightmare unfolding.
And under sail, there is the least-draft ‘chine-sailing’ option for broad-teaching across truly skinny waters – impossible in any other hull-type, without an additional shallow keel and thus more draft.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:56 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Alu-ballast with steel-bolts on a plywood hull ??
Naah...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:30 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

 
 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 


And for those curious about LCU-F, here an online-copy of the July’13 article in the PROCEEDINGS of the US Naval Institute, published on the campus of the US Naval Academy in Annapolis MD:https://www.scribd.com/document/219412911/LCU-F
Also check out PROCEEDINGS of June’14 in US Marine Corps boss GEN Amos’ article on ‘The Connector-Gap’, a Letter in the Dec.‘15 issue, and most recently the Nov’17 piece by USMC’s Col. King.

The fisheries-challenges in MAIB across too many issues.

However, in MAIB mostly more design-concepts to come.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:50 AM
Subject:[bolger] Phil Bolger died on May 24th 2009 [1 Attachment]
 
 

He is constantly missing here.
The place may never feel ‘right’.
However, a lot of heavy lifting has gotten done in the pursuit of the kind of design-philosophy he developed, we together pushed further, I am adding to – as he had hoped it would be.
Well over 100 articles in MAIB, the ‘disruptive’ LCU-F for the US Navy, the ever-so-hands-on 39’ SACPAS-3/GADABOUT boat-building exercise, Fisheries-politics, local Port-politics, etc.

And certainly more ‘lifting’ ongoing and on the schedule, with quite a bit certainly way overdue.
Good thing that major distractions and energy black-holes have been resolved, or are being wrapped up.
The working assumption is – at it has been for so long – that ‘full-steam’ ahead will actual come to indeed mean what it implies on matters Bolger Archive, -books, further opening up of design-work never published.

So, there is only the optimistic way ahead, with lots of intriguing and satisfying projects as far as the eye can see.


Susanne Altenburger, widow to Phil Bolger, collaborator in design and politics between 1994 and 2009.
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:10 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Sharpie-hulls seem amongst the few options to design, build and run a stout hull-bottom structure to indeed sit on or sail over hard and softer bottom without an immediate hull-damage nightmare unfolding.
And under sail, there is the least-draft ‘chine-sailing’ option for broad-teaching across truly skinny waters – impossible in any other hull-type, without an additional shallow keel and thus more draft.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:56 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Alu-ballast with steel-bolts on a plywood hull ??
Naah...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:30 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

 
 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 

He is constantly missing here.
The place may never feel ‘right’.
However, a lot of heavy lifting has gotten done in the pursuit of the kind of design-philosophy he developed, we together pushed further, I am adding to – as he had hoped it would be.
Well over 100 articles in MAIB, the ‘disruptive’ LCU-F for the US Navy, the ever-so-hands-on 39’ SACPAS-3/GADABOUT boat-building exercise, Fisheries-politics, local Port-politics, etc.

And certainly more ‘lifting’ ongoing and on the schedule, with quite a bit certainly way overdue.
Good thing that major distractions and energy black-holes have been resolved, or are being wrapped up.
The working assumption is – at it has been for so long – that ‘full-steam’ ahead will actual come to indeed mean what it implies on matters Bolger Archive, -books, further opening up of design-work never published.

So, there is only the optimistic way ahead, with lots of intriguing and satisfying projects as far as the eye can see.


Susanne Altenburger, widow to Phil Bolger, collaborator in design and politics between 1994 and 2009.
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:10 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Sharpie-hulls seem amongst the few options to design, build and run a stout hull-bottom structure to indeed sit on or sail over hard and softer bottom without an immediate hull-damage nightmare unfolding.
And under sail, there is the least-draft ‘chine-sailing’ option for broad-teaching across truly skinny waters – impossible in any other hull-type, without an additional shallow keel and thus more draft.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:56 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Alu-ballast with steel-bolts on a plywood hull ??
Naah...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:30 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

 
 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 

Sharpie-hulls seem amongst the few options to design, build and run a stout hull-bottom structure to indeed sit on or sail over hard and softer bottom without an immediate hull-damage nightmare unfolding.
And under sail, there is the least-draft ‘chine-sailing’ option for broad-teaching across truly skinny waters – impossible in any other hull-type, without an additional shallow keel and thus more draft.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:56 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Alu-ballast with steel-bolts on a plywood hull ??
Naah...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:30 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

 
 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 

Nobody proposed a steel ballast on an alu-hull.
The hulls in question are in ply-epoxy-glass.
Any ballast and bolts metal underwater would be steel.
Of course, you’d need a barrier-coat over the steel to put (copper-based) bottom-paint on.

Solid copper would seem a ‘dreamy’ option (mega-$$s) with likely self-bending qualities as each plate is (bronze-)bolt-pulled up against the hull-bottom.
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:51 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

My take as a (now former) marine surveyor:

Aluminium hull bottom and steel ballast/shield is a non-starter - the aluminium will gently fizz away to nothing in even slightly brackish water.

If you want to protect the steel from corrosion, then a good epoxy paint system (possibly over a high zinc primer) is a good start, and I'd suggest using sacrificial anodes, with the obvious proviso that you'll need to ensure a good electrical connection between all of the plates (or give each plate it's own anode).

As far as protecting the bolt holes through the hull from water ingress. Drill them oversized, line them with thickened epoxy, then drill them to size when it's cured. I'd also recommend bedding each bolt liberally in your choice of waterproof goop (preferably something intended for marine use, like Sikaflex, rather than the bathroom silicone I kept finding on grotty old Norfolk Broads cruisers).

Dan


On 24/05/2018 12:30,BllFs6@...[bolger] wrote:
 


 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:a.sobriquet@...[bolger]mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
To: bolgermailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com,mailto:chiefredelk@...wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 

Virus-free.www.avg.com

Alu-ballast with steel-bolts on a plywood hull ??
Naah...
 
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:30 AM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

 
 
My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A. S.
 


---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or . Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 

My take as a (now former) marine surveyor:

Aluminium hull bottom and steel ballast/shield is a non-starter - the aluminium will gently fizz away to nothing in even slightly brackish water.

If you want to protect the steel from corrosion, then a good epoxy paint system (possibly over a high zinc primer) is a good start, and I'd suggest using sacrificial anodes, with the obvious proviso that you'll need to ensure a good electrical connection between all of the plates (or give each plate it's own anode).

As far as protecting the bolt holes through the hull from water ingress. Drill them oversized, line them with thickened epoxy, then drill them to size when it's cured. I'd also recommend bedding each bolt liberally in your choice of waterproof goop (preferably something intended for marine use, like Sikaflex, rather than the bathroom silicone I kept finding on grotty old Norfolk Broads cruisers).

Dan


On 24/05/2018 12:30,BllFs6@...[bolger] wrote:



My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?



-----Original Message-----
From:a.sobriquet@...[bolger]<bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger<bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.

I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?

Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.

Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.

Thanks for you ideas

A. S.



---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com,<chiefredelk@...>wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?

Attached plates expansion control?

Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.

Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.

A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.

Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.

Or . Try what I've sorta invented.

Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.

That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.

Good luck. Chief


Virus-free.www.avg.com



My two cents...as an owner of a Bolger Old Shoe sharpie sailboat.

Sharpie hulls are nice in many ways.....but they are not the be all and end all of hydrodynamic elegance.

Once you have that less than perfect hull...IMO the drag from  bolt heads will be in the noise....and counter sunk bolt heads might not be less drag in the first place...and countersunk could lead to another issue or two for that matter.

Perhaps an aluminum hull bottom?



-----Original Message-----
From: a.sobriquet@... [bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
To: bolger <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom

 
Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.

I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?

Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.

Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.

Thanks for you ideas

A. S.



---Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?

Attached plates expansion control?

Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack. 

Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch. 
Freshwater not so difficult.

A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.

Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag. 

Or . Try what I've sorta invented. 

Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED. 

That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot. 
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a s yringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.

Good luck. Chief

The office of Phil Bolger here.
Thank you for your interest in this matter.
 
Send your e-mail address and an MAIB discussion of the method will be supplied as a pdf.
It was successfully applied during the LM-2 (#576) project in Montreal.

To summarize:
- no piece longer than approx. 4’x4’ to keep temperature-related movement between –20 C. to +50 C. near imperceptible;
- countersunk holes through steel-plate with through-bolts bedded in 3M 5200 in plate and through slightly oversized holes in the hull-bottom-proper;
- on inside of hull-bottom use of washers and fender-washers for least wood-crushing, all bedded with 3M 5200;
- all pieces pre-curved by the same local metal-shop that supplied you with the steel by following the hull-design in its definition of its bottom-curve;
- galvanizing is one option via a local/regional ‘hot-dip’ galvanizing facility;
- the Montreal project used high-end epoxy-coating on both sides;
- you’d want to round over all corners and edges to reduce risk of cracking of coating;
- each piece is installed with a perimeter bead of 3M-5200 and a circular bead around each fastener-hole to permanently keep the water out and prevent corrosion of the inside-surface up against the hull;
- outside damage to coating will be inflicted from grounding out over ties, beachings, and glancing blows running over things;
- however, it will take a long time to corrode through 1/2” steel;
- or forever if you could afford straight copper...or bronze...assuming its gauge will be adjusted to arrive at the same weight as the steel;
- with that copper a de facto liquidatable asset/get-out-of-jail card when your currency is low, you’d always have a ‘piggy-bank’ - if you can afford the initial investment... – one that cannot be casually stolen, devalued, confiscated, especially if you tell no one ! 

Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
 
Sent:Wednesday, May 23, 2018 9:48 PM
Subject:Re: [bolger] steel plate on sharpie bottom
 
 

Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.
 
I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?
 
Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.
 
Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.
 
Thanks for you ideas
 
A.S.
 


---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?
 
Attached plates expansion control?
 
Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.
 
Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.
 
A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.
 
Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.
 
Or. Try what I've sorta invented.
 
Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.
 
That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a syringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.
 
Good luck. Chief
 

Chief,
I want the system to be usable in salt water, so it needs to be very corrosion resident.

I would prefer the bolts to be counter-sunk or counter-bored, to keep the bottom as smooth as possible, but I'm not sure if the steel plate is thick enough to permit this. Does anyone know what did Bolger specified?

Has anyone tried an O-ring or rubber washer approach? I wonder how butyl tape would work? It may not tolerate a huge amount of compression, but it will conform to any irregularities, including the bolt threads.

Your black oxidation coating doesn't seem as robust as galvanization. One of the attractions of a hull plate is so that the boat can dry out on a rough "beach" with minimal damage.

Thanks for you ideas

A.S.



---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <chiefredelk@...> wrote :

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?

Attached plates expansion control?

Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack. 

Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch. 
Freshwater not so difficult.

A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.

Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag. 

Or. Try what I've sorta invented. 

Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED. 

That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot. 
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a syringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.

Good luck. Chief

Thanks for the heads-up. Interesting reading, but didn't address many of my questions.


---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <pconnor@...> wrote :

Read WB #157. 

Just thinking. Salt water or Fresh water?

Attached plates expansion control?

Easy fix. Bolt holes oversized with O rings to fill the gap in the oversized holes. Rubber washer between metal washer beneath bolt head. Everything can expand and contract while rubber absorbs the slack.

Corrosion, Salt water?  Ouch.
Freshwater not so difficult.

A slab of cement attachment with Galvanized (replaceable) bolts feels good to me.

Could actually be poured inside on plastic. Would form to boat shape. Cured, remove silicone in place and thank Jesus as you enjoy your boat with exactly what you wanted without the induced drag.

Or. Try what I've sorta invented.

Place metal in saline bath until an even coat of rust appears. Was well in fresh water dry and place in White vinegar for w week flip over to get both sides BLACKENED.

That black stuff can be washed off in warm fresh water using a soft cloth. Don't scratch the metal. It will have a nice Oxidized protective coating.  No soap or other chemicals should be on the metal.
Sun dry. Want it nice and dry and warm or hot.
Spray with rustolem. Choose a color your wife likes. You'll hate it but a happy makes a happy life.
Next coat of paint. Latex. They make a Latex paint for rust.
We want this metal totally sealed.
Scratches shouldn't remove the spray paint but if so touch up immediately.
Sometimes a wash cloth soaked in vinegar played over rust then sealed with plastic and duct tape works. In some cases a syringe can keep the cloth wet for days and tape the needle hole.

Good luck. Chief

On Wed, May 23, 2018, 11:51a.sobriquet@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On some of Bolger's sharpies a large, thick, steel plate(s) is attached to the flatish bottom, to act as ballast and for grounding protection. I'm wondering how the plate is prepared to resist corrosion, and what is the best way to attach the plate to the plywood hull bottom?

Some specific questions:

1) How large can a plate be before the rate of expansion of the steel conflicts with the rate of expansion of the plywood?

2) If the plates are to be galvanized...
a) where do you get the plates galvanized?
b) how thick should the galvanization be?

c) what is the maximum size of a plate that can be galvanized?

d) to what extent should plate edges be rounded before being galvanized?

e) if/when the galvanization on the edge of a plate is chipped and the plate starts rusting, how is the rust managed if it creeps in between the plate and the hull, where you can't get at it?

f) how often do the plates need to be re-galvanized?

g) maybe it would be better to coat the steel with epoxy/fiberglass, rather than galvanization???

h) if I had unlimited funds I'd use plates made of a copper/nickle alloy. No corrosion, and self-anti-fouling.


3) What is the best way to bolt the plate to the fiberglassed (I presume) plywood hull? Do you use flathead bolts countersunk into the steel plate? What keeps water from seeping past the bolts into the plywood? Do you use galvanized bolts, or stainless steel bolts, or monel or bronze bolts? Maybe some sort of a gasket can be used? Using a sealant seems like bad idea, if you want to be able to take the plates off.


Thanks for sharing whatever knowledge and experience you've had.


A.S.

Read WB #157. 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 23, 2018, at 12:52 PM,a.sobriquet@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

On some of Bolger's sharpies a large, thick, steel plate(s) is attached to the flatish bottom, to act as ballast and for grounding protection. I'm wondering how the plate is prepared to resist corrosion, and what is the best way to attach the plate to the plywood hull bottom?

Some specific questions:

1) How large can a plate be before the rate of expansion of the steel conflicts with the rate of expansion of the plywood?

2) If the plates are to be galvanized...
  a) where do you get the plates galvanized?
  b) how thick should the galvanization be?

  c) what is the maximum size of a plate that can be galvanized?

  d) to what extent should plate edges be rounded before being galvanized?

  e) if/when the galvanization on the edge of a plate is chipped and the plate starts rusting, how is the rust managed if it creeps in between the plate and the hull, where you can't get at it?

  f) how often do the plates need to be re-galvanized?

  g) maybe it would be better to coat the steel with epoxy/fiberglass, rather than galvanization???

  h) if I had unlimited funds I'd use plates made of a copper/nickle alloy. No corrosion, and self-anti-fouling.


3) What is the best way to bolt the plate to the fiberglassed (I presume) plywood hull? Do you use flathead bolts countersunk into the steel plate? What keeps water from seeping past the bolts into the plywood? Do you use galvanized bolts, or stainless steel bolts, or monel or bronze bolts? Maybe some sort of a gasket can be used? Using a sealant seems like bad idea, if you want to be able to take the plates off.


Thanks for sharing whatever knowledge and experience you've had.


A.S.

On some of Bolger's sharpies a large, thick, steel plate(s) is attached to the flatish bottom, to act as ballast and for grounding protection. I'm wondering how the plate is prepared to resist corrosion, and what is the best way to attach the plate to the plywood hull bottom?

Some specific questions:

1) How large can a plate be before the rate of expansion of the steel conflicts with the rate of expansion of the plywood?

2) If the plates are to be galvanized...
  a) where do you get the plates galvanized?
  b) how thick should the galvanization be?

  c) what is the maximum size of a plate that can be galvanized?

  d) to what extent should plate edges be rounded before being galvanized?

  e) if/when the galvanization on the edge of a plate is chipped and the plate starts rusting, how is the rust managed if it creeps in between the plate and the hull, where you can't get at it?

  f) how often do the plates need to be re-galvanized?

  g) maybe it would be better to coat the steel with epoxy/fiberglass, rather than galvanization???

  h) if I had unlimited funds I'd use plates made of a copper/nickle alloy. No corrosion, and self-anti-fouling.


3) What is the best way to bolt the plate to the fiberglassed (I presume) plywood hull? Do you use flathead bolts countersunk into the steel plate? What keeps water from seeping past the bolts into the plywood? Do you use galvanized bolts, or stainless steel bolts, or monel or bronze bolts? Maybe some sort of a gasket can be used? Using a sealant seems like bad idea, if you want to be able to take the plates off.


Thanks for sharing whatever knowledge and experience you've had.


A.S.