RE: [bolger] Water-tightness of Wood-epoxy
>JK wroteI think most boats, especially fibreglass ones, last too long anyway, my
>
> I've got nothing against wood/epoxy construction, quite the
> contrary, but
> it hasn't been around long enough to know for sure how long
> it'll last. I
> suspect that it'll last a good, long time but I plan on being
> around for
> quite a while yet! <g>
>
current one is an encapulated wood epoxy, launched in 1990. I recently did
a bit of remodelling and the only rot I found was a couple of pits where the
chainplates go through the ply deck. The spruce mast on the other hand has
a couple of problems developing where the paint has failed.
This represents not a problem but an opportunity in a couple of years to
build a new spar and re-rig her.
My next biggish boat (30-40')will be traditionally built from the materials
that come to hand, and will have an maximum expected life of 20 years.
Small fry should be built with a design life of not more than 10 years IMHO.
This is a way of optimising the use of ones resources (especially
financial), and is completely traditional in respect to boats.
Regards - Foster
I've got nothing against wood/epoxy construction, quite the contrary, but
it hasn't been around long enough to know for sure how long it'll last. I
suspect that it'll last a good, long time but I plan on being around for
quite a while yet! <g>
For _real_ longevity traditional wood construction is the way to go. With
proper attention a traditional wooden boat will last forever (even if none
of the _original_ pieces of wood are left in her after while... <g>).
it hasn't been around long enough to know for sure how long it'll last. I
suspect that it'll last a good, long time but I plan on being around for
quite a while yet! <g>
For _real_ longevity traditional wood construction is the way to go. With
proper attention a traditional wooden boat will last forever (even if none
of the _original_ pieces of wood are left in her after while... <g>).
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:19:26 -0500 (CDT), Chris Crandall wrote:
>
> Well, don't buy the original assumption.
>
> A well-built wood/epoxy hull will, under normal circumstances and with
> reasonable care, last as long as you do, or certainly, as long as any
> comparable stell hull.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
"Necessity is the mother of invention" is a silly proverb.
"Necessity is the mother of futile dodges" is much nearer the truth.
<Alfred North Whitehead>
Paul ( et al ),
You are quite right about this, as applies to soakage. The breathing idea
applies best to solid wood. When the Gougeon's started encapsulating avery
little piece it was more to give maximum possible strength with minimal
scantlings than for preventing rot, I believe.
I can imagine damage to ply, apparent or hidden and however small, that
could breach the glue line and let more water in than it lets out. Then, as
much free surface area as possible might just be helpful.
If the above seems strained, and by way of response to Frank's original
query, here's Firth-Jones' whole system for that trimaran. It is only
glassed with epoxy below the water line to keep out the Toredos:
1. No wood preservatives ( too hazardous )
2. Good quality wood w/ some rot resistance ( luan ply, dark red luan and
sapwood free Douglass fir timbers )
3. Good fits
4. White decks to keep the temperature down
5. Plenty of ventilation
He was very concerned about rot in this, telling a couple of horror stories
of trimarans that rotted before they hit the water and Nigel Tetley's 3
year old Victress that lost a float at sea. This was the best he could do.
Happy sails,
Mark
Paul van der Merwe wrote:
You are quite right about this, as applies to soakage. The breathing idea
applies best to solid wood. When the Gougeon's started encapsulating avery
little piece it was more to give maximum possible strength with minimal
scantlings than for preventing rot, I believe.
I can imagine damage to ply, apparent or hidden and however small, that
could breach the glue line and let more water in than it lets out. Then, as
much free surface area as possible might just be helpful.
If the above seems strained, and by way of response to Frank's original
query, here's Firth-Jones' whole system for that trimaran. It is only
glassed with epoxy below the water line to keep out the Toredos:
1. No wood preservatives ( too hazardous )
2. Good quality wood w/ some rot resistance ( luan ply, dark red luan and
sapwood free Douglass fir timbers )
3. Good fits
4. White decks to keep the temperature down
5. Plenty of ventilation
He was very concerned about rot in this, telling a couple of horror stories
of trimarans that rotted before they hit the water and Nigel Tetley's 3
year old Victress that lost a float at sea. This was the best he could do.
Happy sails,
Mark
Paul van der Merwe wrote:
>I think not encapsulating
> one side of the ply will not help water vapor to escape as the glue line
> will be a water proof barrier.
>Chuck,You're correct. The old salts (no pun intended) used to throw handfuls of rock
salt into inaccessible areas of a "traditional" wooden boat if it was to be
used primarily in fresh water. It helps prevents rot and worms.
Jim
>Frank:
>
>My understanding is that salt water helps preserve wood, and that in
>pre-epoxy days, owners of wooden boats sprinkled rock salt in the bilges to
>help preserve them. That said, my experience has been that Douglas Fir will
>check through as many coats of epoxy as you care to put on it. To prevent
>this, ad a thin layer of fabric. Luan and other species seem to fare
>better.
>
>For a boat that was always in the water, I would be more concerned about
>worms (in the tropics) and bottom growth.
>
>Chuck
>>
>> I've been discussing the AS39 and ANTISPRAY with John McDaniel
>> offline. He is going to build the latter of steel and during our
>> discussions about steel versus wood he mentioned that even a glassed
>> wood hull will eventually develop cracks and water will get to the
>> wood and, though slowly, will begin to rot.
>>
>> I thought I would throw out these questions to the group: How long
>> will it take an epoxied only hull to begin to crack enough to allow
>> water to the wood? How long will it take a glassed hull to begin to
>> crack enough to allow water to the wood? Is re-epoxying the hull on
>> a certain schedule worth the trouble it would be (especially for a
>> larger boat)? Are there other alternatives in preserving a wood hull?
>>
>> Frank Bales
>> Staunton, VA
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing
>- stay on topic
>- use punctuation
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
>
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Frank Bales wrote:
Reasonable care is pretty obvious--don't leave the boat out in the rain.
Keep it out of the sun, even if it means covering it with a tarp (but
allow circulation!
Keep the paint on, fix problems that arise, keep your eye on when the
paint/epoxy/glass combination has been compromised, and so on.
My Teal is now 6 years old, and looks one year old. I don't use it a lot
right now, which assures it will look new for a long time. But reasonable
care has merely meant wiping it down and storing it in my garage.
> Chris, could ya define "reasonable care?"Good luck on the Surf!
>
> P.S. I've decided on the Surf :)
Reasonable care is pretty obvious--don't leave the boat out in the rain.
Keep it out of the sun, even if it means covering it with a tarp (but
allow circulation!
Keep the paint on, fix problems that arise, keep your eye on when the
paint/epoxy/glass combination has been compromised, and so on.
My Teal is now 6 years old, and looks one year old. I don't use it a lot
right now, which assures it will look new for a long time. But reasonable
care has merely meant wiping it down and storing it in my garage.
Hello Frank,
As Bolger and others have sometimes(often?)mentioned,the last
place to economize or cut corners is in the hull.If you follow well
proven building methods for your given material of choice,use the
best quality materials you can afford and work clean then your griefs
will be few.However,if your hulls integrity is jeopardized by rough
use,accidental groundings(aren't they all) and less then adequate
maintenance,heartbreak will surely follow.
Rest assured that ALL materials have their little foibles and it
just depends on which ones you feel best suited to address when the
time comes(and it will!)
Finally,do not let buggaboos like the sometimes mythic"rot" stop
you from building.Besides,"rust" hasn't stopped John from undertaking
the construction of his gorgeous ANTISPRAY!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
As Bolger and others have sometimes(often?)mentioned,the last
place to economize or cut corners is in the hull.If you follow well
proven building methods for your given material of choice,use the
best quality materials you can afford and work clean then your griefs
will be few.However,if your hulls integrity is jeopardized by rough
use,accidental groundings(aren't they all) and less then adequate
maintenance,heartbreak will surely follow.
Rest assured that ALL materials have their little foibles and it
just depends on which ones you feel best suited to address when the
time comes(and it will!)
Finally,do not let buggaboos like the sometimes mythic"rot" stop
you from building.Besides,"rust" hasn't stopped John from undertaking
the construction of his gorgeous ANTISPRAY!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@a...> wrote:
> I've been discussing the AS39 and ANTISPRAY with John McDaniel
> offline. He is going to build the latter of steel and during our
> discussions about steel versus wood he mentioned that even a
glassed
> wood hull will eventually develop cracks and water will get to the
> wood and, though slowly, will begin to rot.
>
> I thought I would throw out these questions to the group: How long
> will it take an epoxied only hull to begin to crack enough to allow
> water to the wood? How long will it take a glassed hull to begin
to
> crack enough to allow water to the wood? Is re-epoxying the hull
on
> a certain schedule worth the trouble it would be (especially for a
> larger boat)? Are there other alternatives in preserving a wood
hull?
>
> Frank Bales
> Staunton, VA
Pippo,
Not only does it breath,it also snores,epecially in those quiet
wee hours of the morning when you are trying desperately to pretend
that you really do not have to use the head and it is so comfortably
warm inside your sleeping bag but it is raining
outside.Besides,didn't you just go an hour ago? ;-D
Peter Lenihan,wishing it
weren't the case,late at night,on the St.Lawrence River.......
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Giuseppe Bianco" <giuseppe.bianco@a...>
wrote:
Not only does it breath,it also snores,epecially in those quiet
wee hours of the morning when you are trying desperately to pretend
that you really do not have to use the head and it is so comfortably
warm inside your sleeping bag but it is raining
outside.Besides,didn't you just go an hour ago? ;-D
Peter Lenihan,wishing it
weren't the case,late at night,on the St.Lawrence River.......
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Giuseppe Bianco" <giuseppe.bianco@a...>
wrote:
> Uhm - do you guys think that plywood breaths? This might be truejust
> for the external veneers, but all the others are alreadyencapsulated
> between layers of phenolic WBP glue...exactly.
> Best, Pippo
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka@o...> wrote:
> > Chuck,
> >
> > I just dug into the pile for SBJ #67, where Firth-Jones describes
> building
> > his nice, little Trimaran, Hummingbird. Here's what he says
> > "Varnish and latex paint provide breathing surfaces. Oil paintand
> glues do not."of
> >
> > Latex housepaint withstands wind and water for a long time.
> >
> >
> > Your new boat's really comin' along, huh?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > Chuck Leinweber wrote:
> > >
> > > Mark:
> > >
> > > I have done this on my caprice, painting the inside with latex
> enamel. What
> > > I wonder is: doesn't latex paint do a pretty good job of
> waterproofing?
> > > Does it breathe?
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Greg,
> > > >
> > > > You are not alone. Thomas Firth-Jones always leaves one side
> the wood
> > > to
> > > > breath. Paint & Varnish do; epoxy not.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - no cursing
> > > - stay on topic
> > > - use punctuation
> > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> > > - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
Uhm - do you guys think that plywood breaths? This might be true just
for the external veneers, but all the others are already encapsulated
between layers of phenolic WBP glue...
Best, Pippo
for the external veneers, but all the others are already encapsulated
between layers of phenolic WBP glue...
Best, Pippo
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka@o...> wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> I just dug into the pile for SBJ #67, where Firth-Jones describes
building
> his nice, little Trimaran, Hummingbird. Here's what he says exactly.
> "Varnish and latex paint provide breathing surfaces. Oil paint and
glues do not."
>
> Latex housepaint withstands wind and water for a long time.
>
>
> Your new boat's really comin' along, huh?
>
> Mark
>
>
> Chuck Leinweber wrote:
> >
> > Mark:
> >
> > I have done this on my caprice, painting the inside with latex
enamel. What
> > I wonder is: doesn't latex paint do a pretty good job of
waterproofing?
> > Does it breathe?
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > >
> > > Greg,
> > >
> > > You are not alone. Thomas Firth-Jones always leaves one side of
the wood
> > to
> > > breath. Paint & Varnish do; epoxy not.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing
> > - stay on topic
> > - use punctuation
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> > - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
Chuck,
I just dug into the pile for SBJ #67, where Firth-Jones describes building
his nice, little Trimaran, Hummingbird. Here's what he says exactly.
"Varnish and latex paint provide breathing surfaces. Oil paint and glues do not."
Latex housepaint withstands wind and water for a long time.
Your new boat's really comin' along, huh?
Mark
Chuck Leinweber wrote:
I just dug into the pile for SBJ #67, where Firth-Jones describes building
his nice, little Trimaran, Hummingbird. Here's what he says exactly.
"Varnish and latex paint provide breathing surfaces. Oil paint and glues do not."
Latex housepaint withstands wind and water for a long time.
Your new boat's really comin' along, huh?
Mark
Chuck Leinweber wrote:
>
> Mark:
>
> I have done this on my caprice, painting the inside with latex enamel. What
> I wonder is: doesn't latex paint do a pretty good job of waterproofing?
> Does it breathe?
>
> Chuck
>
> >
> > Greg,
> >
> > You are not alone. Thomas Firth-Jones always leaves one side of the wood
> to
> > breath. Paint & Varnish do; epoxy not.
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
Mark:
I have done this on my caprice, painting the inside with latex enamel. What
I wonder is: doesn't latex paint do a pretty good job of waterproofing?
Does it breathe?
Chuck
I have done this on my caprice, painting the inside with latex enamel. What
I wonder is: doesn't latex paint do a pretty good job of waterproofing?
Does it breathe?
Chuck
>to
> Greg,
>
> You are not alone. Thomas Firth-Jones always leaves one side of the wood
> breath. Paint & Varnish do; epoxy not.
>
> Mark
>
My observations after doing some surgery to my 30+ year old wooden trailer
sailor was the following:
1. All ply and wood exposed to sea water was fine.
2. Fresh water or rain water in my boat's case was the problem. Deck
fittings and exposed end grain oft the ply caused the water to enter the ply
of the hull.
3. After cutting out the suspect pieces of the hull I noticed that the plys
that had their end grain exposed to the water seems to wick up the water and
rot out. The plys that had their grain diagonal to the exposed area was
still fine. The glue seems to be so watertight that the water did not
migrate from the "end grain" plys to the others. I think not encaptulating
one side of the ply will not help water vapor to escape as the glue line
will be a water proof barrier.
After experimenting my conclusion is to paint any endgrain of ply with wood
preservative, as it is very runny it will wick far into the endgrain plys
and then to encaptulate it with epoxy. If water do get past the epoxy after
some time, the preservative is waiting there to catch all the nasties. The
deck areas I treated with preservative before glassing it with epoxy. It
did not seem to affect the epoxy sticking to the wood.
regards Paul "Just Fun" - Hartley TS16
sailor was the following:
1. All ply and wood exposed to sea water was fine.
2. Fresh water or rain water in my boat's case was the problem. Deck
fittings and exposed end grain oft the ply caused the water to enter the ply
of the hull.
3. After cutting out the suspect pieces of the hull I noticed that the plys
that had their end grain exposed to the water seems to wick up the water and
rot out. The plys that had their grain diagonal to the exposed area was
still fine. The glue seems to be so watertight that the water did not
migrate from the "end grain" plys to the others. I think not encaptulating
one side of the ply will not help water vapor to escape as the glue line
will be a water proof barrier.
After experimenting my conclusion is to paint any endgrain of ply with wood
preservative, as it is very runny it will wick far into the endgrain plys
and then to encaptulate it with epoxy. If water do get past the epoxy after
some time, the preservative is waiting there to catch all the nasties. The
deck areas I treated with preservative before glassing it with epoxy. It
did not seem to affect the epoxy sticking to the wood.
regards Paul "Just Fun" - Hartley TS16
Greg,
You are not alone. Thomas Firth-Jones always leaves one side of the wood to
breath. Paint & Varnish do; epoxy not.
Mark
GHC wrote:
You are not alone. Thomas Firth-Jones always leaves one side of the wood to
breath. Paint & Varnish do; epoxy not.
Mark
GHC wrote:
>[ snip ]
> Epoxy'ing the inside, too (e.g. "encapsulation" - as in, are you
> encapsulating dry wood or water?) is probably a bigger concern than the
> exterior.
i.e. don't puncture (or wear) a hole in the sheathing; or fix it if you do.
Gregg Carlson
Gregg Carlson
>Chris, could ya define "reasonable care?"
>
>P.S. I've decided on the Surf :)
>
>Frank Bales
>Staunton, VA
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Crandall [mailto:crandall@...]
>Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 4:19 PM
>To:bolger@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Water-tightness of Wood-epoxy
>
>
>Well, don't buy the original assumption.
>
>A well-built wood/epoxy hull will, under normal circumstances and with
>reasonable care, last as long as you do, or certainly, as long as any
>comparable stell hull.
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing
>- stay on topic
>- use punctuation
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing
>- stay on topic
>- use punctuation
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
>
Frank,
The solution you are looking for is glas embedded in the epoxy, which will
prevent cracking altogether.
Epoxy'ing the inside, too (e.g. "encapsulation" - as in, are you
encapsulating dry wood or water?) is probably a bigger concern than the
exterior.
Gregg Carlson
The solution you are looking for is glas embedded in the epoxy, which will
prevent cracking altogether.
Epoxy'ing the inside, too (e.g. "encapsulation" - as in, are you
encapsulating dry wood or water?) is probably a bigger concern than the
exterior.
Gregg Carlson
>I've been discussing the AS39 and ANTISPRAY with John McDaniel
>offline. He is going to build the latter of steel and during our
>discussions about steel versus wood he mentioned that even a glassed
>wood hull will eventually develop cracks and water will get to the
>wood and, though slowly, will begin to rot.
>
>I thought I would throw out these questions to the group: How long
>will it take an epoxied only hull to begin to crack enough to allow
>water to the wood? How long will it take a glassed hull to begin to
>crack enough to allow water to the wood? Is re-epoxying the hull on
>a certain schedule worth the trouble it would be (especially for a
>larger boat)? Are there other alternatives in preserving a wood hull?
>
>Frank Bales
>Staunton, VA
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing
>- stay on topic
>- use punctuation
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
>
The answer to the question is not simple or straight forward. About 2 years
ago one of the boards had a discussion of this with folks who had done
research specific to the topic, including Dave Carnell and Kern Hendricks as
well as others claiming expertise. The answer, as I recall it, seems to be
that some limited amount of mositure migrates into the wood, but not enough
to make any real difference. The wood still appears to be protected.
Regards, Warren
ago one of the boards had a discussion of this with folks who had done
research specific to the topic, including Dave Carnell and Kern Hendricks as
well as others claiming expertise. The answer, as I recall it, seems to be
that some limited amount of mositure migrates into the wood, but not enough
to make any real difference. The wood still appears to be protected.
Regards, Warren
Frank:
My understanding is that salt water helps preserve wood, and that in
pre-epoxy days, owners of wooden boats sprinkled rock salt in the bilges to
help preserve them. That said, my experience has been that Douglas Fir will
check through as many coats of epoxy as you care to put on it. To prevent
this, ad a thin layer of fabric. Luan and other species seem to fare
better.
For a boat that was always in the water, I would be more concerned about
worms (in the tropics) and bottom growth.
Chuck
My understanding is that salt water helps preserve wood, and that in
pre-epoxy days, owners of wooden boats sprinkled rock salt in the bilges to
help preserve them. That said, my experience has been that Douglas Fir will
check through as many coats of epoxy as you care to put on it. To prevent
this, ad a thin layer of fabric. Luan and other species seem to fare
better.
For a boat that was always in the water, I would be more concerned about
worms (in the tropics) and bottom growth.
Chuck
>
> I've been discussing the AS39 and ANTISPRAY with John McDaniel
> offline. He is going to build the latter of steel and during our
> discussions about steel versus wood he mentioned that even a glassed
> wood hull will eventually develop cracks and water will get to the
> wood and, though slowly, will begin to rot.
>
> I thought I would throw out these questions to the group: How long
> will it take an epoxied only hull to begin to crack enough to allow
> water to the wood? How long will it take a glassed hull to begin to
> crack enough to allow water to the wood? Is re-epoxying the hull on
> a certain schedule worth the trouble it would be (especially for a
> larger boat)? Are there other alternatives in preserving a wood hull?
>
> Frank Bales
> Staunton, VA
Chris, could ya define "reasonable care?"
P.S. I've decided on the Surf :)
Frank Bales
Staunton, VA
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Crandall [mailto:crandall@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 4:19 PM
To:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Water-tightness of Wood-epoxy
Well, don't buy the original assumption.
A well-built wood/epoxy hull will, under normal circumstances and with
reasonable care, last as long as you do, or certainly, as long as any
comparable stell hull.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing
- stay on topic
- use punctuation
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
P.S. I've decided on the Surf :)
Frank Bales
Staunton, VA
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Crandall [mailto:crandall@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 4:19 PM
To:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Water-tightness of Wood-epoxy
Well, don't buy the original assumption.
A well-built wood/epoxy hull will, under normal circumstances and with
reasonable care, last as long as you do, or certainly, as long as any
comparable stell hull.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing
- stay on topic
- use punctuation
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
- add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
Well, don't buy the original assumption.
A well-built wood/epoxy hull will, under normal circumstances and with
reasonable care, last as long as you do, or certainly, as long as any
comparable stell hull.
A well-built wood/epoxy hull will, under normal circumstances and with
reasonable care, last as long as you do, or certainly, as long as any
comparable stell hull.
I've been discussing the AS39 and ANTISPRAY with John McDaniel
offline. He is going to build the latter of steel and during our
discussions about steel versus wood he mentioned that even a glassed
wood hull will eventually develop cracks and water will get to the
wood and, though slowly, will begin to rot.
I thought I would throw out these questions to the group: How long
will it take an epoxied only hull to begin to crack enough to allow
water to the wood? How long will it take a glassed hull to begin to
crack enough to allow water to the wood? Is re-epoxying the hull on
a certain schedule worth the trouble it would be (especially for a
larger boat)? Are there other alternatives in preserving a wood hull?
Frank Bales
Staunton, VA
offline. He is going to build the latter of steel and during our
discussions about steel versus wood he mentioned that even a glassed
wood hull will eventually develop cracks and water will get to the
wood and, though slowly, will begin to rot.
I thought I would throw out these questions to the group: How long
will it take an epoxied only hull to begin to crack enough to allow
water to the wood? How long will it take a glassed hull to begin to
crack enough to allow water to the wood? Is re-epoxying the hull on
a certain schedule worth the trouble it would be (especially for a
larger boat)? Are there other alternatives in preserving a wood hull?
Frank Bales
Staunton, VA