Re: Alternative Flotation (Ping Pong Balls, etc)

In my Surf, I used the big bottles that cat litter comes in, plus
old laundry detergent bottles. You can scrouge them from cat owners
you know, and everyone will have the detergent bottles. I just threw
them in the bow and stern compartments, then nailed down the deck.
They rumble around in there when I turn the boat over. It didn't dawn
on me, until last night, that I could have sprayed the aerosol foam
stuff around them to keep them quiet.

I looked at the pink foam at Home Depot, but never got back to buy
it, and had the bottles around the house, so I just used those.

Take care,
Pete Reynolds



--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "C. O'Donnell" <dadadata@f...> wrote:
>
> Styro peanuts **in plastic garbage bags** to fill odd spaces.
>
> 1L water bottles with screw on caps well screwed on.
>
> Bubble plastic packing.
>
> Discarded PFDs, open them up, take out the closed-cell foam
(usually
> sheets).
>
> heck, I'm sure there are 50 more things I haven't thought of. Styro
> food trays, for example.
>
> All of these plans pretty much assume you are filling an airtight
> space, or a space with an airtight hatch on it. The idea is to make
> sure the air tank can't leak.
Styro peanuts **in plastic garbage bags** to fill odd spaces.

1L water bottles with screw on caps well screwed on.

Bubble plastic packing.

Discarded PFDs, open them up, take out the closed-cell foam (usually
sheets).

heck, I'm sure there are 50 more things I haven't thought of. Styro
food trays, for example.

All of these plans pretty much assume you are filling an airtight
space, or a space with an airtight hatch on it. The idea is to make
sure the air tank can't leak.
Sort of confused re possible offensive content. I saw none that I
remember. I just didn't recognize "APS". Wouldn't they be better off
if they tried to talk it out first?

I think people often use airbags to lift things off the bottom, or
you
could pump air into flooded compartments. A compartment that was not
vented might burst if depth change sufficient, tho.

When diving with a dry suit or bouyancy compensator, you have to put
some air in when you get deep, and when you come up you have to vent
some of the air or your rate of ascent will get out of control when
the air expands. Sort of OT, I guess, unless Bolger did a submarine
(didn't he?).
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, wmrpage@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/20/00 6:21:06 PM Central Daylight Time,
> lincolnr@m... writes:
>
> << Nothing particularly surprising about this. >>
>
> Yes, a given volume of air will expand, if permitted to do so by an
elastic
> or open-bottomed envelop (not the case in ping-pong balls, I
think),
and its
> lifting capacity will increase as its volume expands, but the
weight
and the
> displacement of the ship or other object to be lifted will remain
unchanged
> (I think).
>
> APS is the American Physical Society, or something like that. Bob
Park has a
> web-site devoted to debunking "junk science" which is highly
entertaining. He
> is evidently a member of APS, but his site contains the disclaimer:
"not an
> official position of the APS, but it should be." or words to the
equivalent.
>
> I apologize if I offended anyone.
>
> Bill in MN
I've been advocating Funoodles as a good alternative to pour-in expanding
foam. To recap, it's cheap; pretty light; durable; and floats 12-15 pounds
per noodle, depending on whether the hollow or solid ones are used. They
are impervious to water.
http://www.egroups.com/message/bolger/5731

In light of concerns raised in this thread, I conducted further tests for
resistance to gasoline and for flammability.

Soaked in gas for several hours I noticed no effect to inner or outer
surfaces of a sliced up sample. It didn't take more than an open flame from
a typical lighter to set a fresh piece burning, though.

Incidentally, a bit of the premium foam I have was also easy to ignite. I
suspect one would have to go to something exotic and / or expensive to
have it fireproof.

Mark
> I've also heard that flexible gallon wine "bladders" are available
> free from some restaurants. Inexpensive "house wine" is often shipped
> in these. They are air tight, durable and flexible, so conform more
> easily to hull contours. I'm also told you can empty the jugs yourself
> is you have the stamina. david beede

Keep in mind that many of these are also low in abrasion resistance.
Sure is. Best price is from Fiberglass Coatings in Florida, $24 a gallon.

Still, it is messy, and relatively expensive.

Richard Spelling,http://www.spellingbusiness.com/boats
From the muddy waters of Oklahoma

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Bales" <fbales@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Alternative Flotation (Ping Pong Balls, etc)


>
> I hadn't seen it mentioned in this thread, but I was wondering if there is
a
> spray-in type foam available similar to the foam insulation some are now
> using in homes? It would be permanent, so perhaps that makes it a bad
idea.
>
> Frank Bales
> Staunton, VA
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>
I hadn't seen it mentioned in this thread, but I was wondering if there is a
spray-in type foam available similar to the foam insulation some are now
using in homes? It would be permanent, so perhaps that makes it a bad idea.

Frank Bales
Staunton, VA
In a message dated 9/20/00 6:21:06 PM Central Daylight Time,
lincolnr@...writes:

<< Nothing particularly surprising about this. >>

Yes, a given volume of air will expand, if permitted to do so by an elastic
or open-bottomed envelop (not the case in ping-pong balls, I think), and its
lifting capacity will increase as its volume expands, but the weight and the
displacement of the ship or other object to be lifted will remain unchanged
(I think).

APS is the American Physical Society, or something like that. Bob Park has a
web-site devoted to debunking "junk science" which is highly entertaining. He
is evidently a member of APS, but his site contains the disclaimer: "not an
official position of the APS, but it should be." or words to the equivalent.

I apologize if I offended anyone.

Bill in MN
Wooden boat people might underestimate the hull's natural flotation.
A 25ft hull might well stay afloat with half a ton of dead weight in
her. Flotation tanks always seem to me like wasted space. You give
away a lot of boat for the sake of a day that by all odds never
comes. If you have a worrisome lead keel, you might consider Larry
Pardey's emergency airbag system. I think it pops out of the cabin
floor & fills all space below decks.

Ed Haile

--- Inbolger@egroups.com, <darus@v...> wrote:
> >
> > One unusual source of flotation media I once heard of was the use
of
> > Ping-Pong balls.
>
> A potential drawback is that the effective volume of your flotation
chamber is
> cut roughly in half.
>
> I had similar thoughts recently about using Styrofoam packing
peanuts to
> stuff a flotation chamber.
>
> Also, in the severe situation of a hull breach that compromises the
flotation
> chamber, your flotation may just abandon ship. If the PPBalls are
all
> fluorescent orange, it may aid in locating the wreck in an air
search.
Nothing particularly surprising about this. If you have any air
inside with a free surface on the bottom or in a flexible container,
it will expand and displace more water as it comes up and the
pressure
is reduced. THis will certainly not be surprising to anyone who has
taken a close look at their wet suit when 60' below the surface, or
to
anyone who has taken the regulator out of their mouth at 40' down and
exhaled all the way to the surface. (Ok, ok, it wasn't a science
experiment, I ran myself out of air.) Air at 32 feet down will take
up
only half the volume it does at the surface.

Probably another phenomenon is that once you break free of the mud it
takes less force to lift.

What is APS?

--- Inbolger@egroups.com, wmrpage@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/20/00 2:21:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
> m_doles@y... writes:
>
> << Usually you need a lifting source to
> start the ship up,once rising though it will get lighter and
> lighter. >>
>
> Now this IS an interesting physical phenomena!:) I wonder if Bob
Park of the
> APS has heard about this.
>
> Bill in MN
In a message dated 9/20/00 2:21:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
m_doles@...writes:

<< Usually you need a lifting source to
start the ship up,once rising though it will get lighter and
lighter. >>

Now this IS an interesting physical phenomena!:) I wonder if Bob Park of the
APS has heard about this.

Bill in MN
I've also heard that flexible gallon wine "bladders" are available free
from some restaurants. Inexpensive "house wine" is often shipped in
these. They are air tight, durable and flexible, so conform more easily
to hull contours. I'm also told you can empty the jugs yourself is you
have the stamina.
david beede

freedem@...wrote:
>
>
> My preference is 2 litre pop bottles because I get a 2 or 3 each day
> Jeffery
>
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, <darus@v...> wrote:
> > >
> > > One unusual source of flotation media I once heard of was the use
> of
> > > Ping-Pong balls.
> >
> > A potential drawback is that the effective volume of your flotation
> chamber is
> > cut roughly in half.
> >
> > I had similar thoughts recently about using Styrofoam packing
> peanuts to
> > stuff a flotation chamber.
> >
> > Also, in the severe situation of a hull breach that compromises the
> flotation
> > chamber, your flotation may just abandon ship. If the PPBalls are
> all
> > fluorescent orange, it may aid in locating the wreck in an air
> s
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.

--

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-Actually ping pong balls have been succesfully used to raise sunken
ships. They displace water in the ship and when they hit the
surface they hold their air. Usually you need a lifting source to
start the ship up,once rising though it will get lighter and
lighter. Pack them in spray in foam.
My preference is 2 litre pop bottles because I get a 2 or 3 each day
Jeffery

--- Inbolger@egroups.com, <darus@v...> wrote:
> >
> > One unusual source of flotation media I once heard of was the use
of
> > Ping-Pong balls.
>
> A potential drawback is that the effective volume of your flotation
chamber is
> cut roughly in half.
>
> I had similar thoughts recently about using Styrofoam packing
peanuts to
> stuff a flotation chamber.
>
> Also, in the severe situation of a hull breach that compromises the
flotation
> chamber, your flotation may just abandon ship. If the PPBalls are
all
> fluorescent orange, it may aid in locating the wreck in an air
s
Don't use the white polystyrene foam-it can absorb water- the
structure is too loose I think. Someone in "Woodenboat" mentioned the
blue high density stuff was better (Payson?)-builders have no
hesitation putting it below grade on the outside of foundations. Do
miss those nice stiff plastic milk jugs for installing under seats
with a dab of expoxy- todays flimsy ones don't really cut it.






--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
> I have seen the type of foam I am thinking of used for floatation
on
> canoes. I think you have to check out the particular type of foam
you
> are using. Maybe put it in a bucket overnight. In my experience,
> styrene is stiffer than polyethylene or polypropylene, and I would
> expect the foams made from them to keep these properties. I suppose
I
> could look up the elastic modulus for each, but that's too much
work.
> I seem to recall there's been some controversy re funnoodles, but
> they
> seem to be relatively waterproof and flexible. Then there's the
foam
> in my life jacket.
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, Jim Pope <jpope@m...> wrote:
> > Hi Linc and Group
> >
> > Beware of floppy foam!
> >
> > Floppy (flexible) foam usually indicates an open cell structure,
> neat for
> > use as a sponge but as a flotation source not. off-list.
I have seen the type of foam I am thinking of used for floatation on
canoes. I think you have to check out the particular type of foam you
are using. Maybe put it in a bucket overnight. In my experience,
styrene is stiffer than polyethylene or polypropylene, and I would
expect the foams made from them to keep these properties. I suppose I
could look up the elastic modulus for each, but that's too much work.
I seem to recall there's been some controversy re funnoodles, but
they
seem to be relatively waterproof and flexible. Then there's the foam
in my life jacket.
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, Jim Pope <jpope@m...> wrote:
> Hi Linc and Group
>
> Beware of floppy foam!
>
> Floppy (flexible) foam usually indicates an open cell structure,
neat for
> use as a sponge but as a flotation source not. off-list.
How about two-litre pop bottles, rafted together with duct tape, smaller
pop-bottles in the interstices, and lengths of pool-noodle in the smaller
gaps. If my day-sailer is destroyed to the point that the raft escapes, I'll
have other things to worry about (like swimming after the raft :)

Derek
>
> > > One unusual source of flotation media I once heard of was the use
> of
> > > Ping-Pong balls.
>
> It's also true that ping pong balls are very flammable.

Expanded Polystyrene Foam (Styrofoam) is no winner in this regard, either,
and the resulting gasses are rather unfriendly.
Incidently, this post was 'on-topic' because the college in question
was Bowdoin College, Brunswick, Maine from which PCB has a degree in
history.

PHV

--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know how you found
this
> > out, and if finding out left any scars.
>
> re: flammability of ping pong balls.
>
> It's one of those things that I learned in college, but not in
class.
> Fraternity life can be a wonderful thing.
>
> I was also present when a fraternity brother tried to crack a pool
> ball, unsucessfully.
>
> Peter
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know how you found this
> out, and if finding out left any scars.

re: flammability of ping pong balls.

It's one of those things that I learned in college, but not in class.
Fraternity life can be a wonderful thing.

I was also present when a fraternity brother tried to crack a pool
ball, unsucessfully.

Peter
Peter --

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know how you found this
out, and if finding out left any scars.

YIBB,

David


>It's also true that ping pong balls are very flammable. It's hard to
>see how it matters, but disasters come when more than one thing goes
>wrong.
>
>Peter

CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 247-0296
> > One unusual source of flotation media I once heard of was the use
of
> > Ping-Pong balls.

It's also true that ping pong balls are very flammable. It's hard to
see how it matters, but disasters come when more than one thing goes
wrong.

Peter
>
> One unusual source of flotation media I once heard of was the use of
> Ping-Pong balls.

A potential drawback is that the effective volume of your flotation chamber is
cut roughly in half.

I had similar thoughts recently about using Styrofoam packing peanuts to
stuff a flotation chamber.

Also, in the severe situation of a hull breach that compromises the flotation
chamber, your flotation may just abandon ship. If the PPBalls are all
fluorescent orange, it may aid in locating the wreck in an air search.
Hi Linc and Group

Beware of floppy foam!

Floppy (flexible) foam usually indicates an open cell structure, neat for
use as a sponge but as a flotation source not. Rigid foam for all of its
stress concentration and crumbling is closed cell and even the crumbs float.

One unusual source of flotation media I once heard of was the use of
Ping-Pong balls. Apparently not every ping pong ball in a manufacturing
process comes out perfectly and the correspondent had found a source of
seconds. He was able to fill the fore and aft compartments of a middling
good size day sailer with them and said that they worked very well. Dunno
m'sef - sounds pretty weird.

Jim

Lincoln Ross wrote:

>
>
> start to break down the foam at the glue joint. You need either a
> flexible way to attach the foam or foam that is itself flexible. I've
> seen flexible foam, they use it for packing expensive electronics
> sometimes, but it is polypropylene or polyethylene, so it would be
> tough to glue to. Flexible glue would have to be VERY thick to
> provide
> enough give on polystyrene. Another option is to add some significant
> stiffening to the deck right around the edges of the block. I've
> thought about this because I had the same problem with a previous
> boat. Ended up getting rid of it for other reasons before I solved
> that problem. Maybe you could lash the foam or something.
> >snip
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing
> - stay on topic
> - use punctuation
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, Matthew Long <matthew.long@l...> wrote:
Matthew,

Have been having fun with your old Brick on several occasions,
including one which made us think of the "Perfect Storm" (not
justifiably) but worked out ok.

On the foam problem: the foam is so thick that it becomes stiffer
than
the wood it is attached to, and all the stress concentrates at the
edge of the glue joint. When someone flexes the deck, this stress
will
start to break down the foam at the glue joint. You need either a
flexible way to attach the foam or foam that is itself flexible. I've
seen flexible foam, they use it for packing expensive electronics
sometimes, but it is polypropylene or polyethylene, so it would be
tough to glue to. Flexible glue would have to be VERY thick to
provide
enough give on polystyrene. Another option is to add some significant
stiffening to the deck right around the edges of the block. I've
thought about this because I had the same problem with a previous
boat. Ended up getting rid of it for other reasons before I solved
that problem. Maybe you could lash the foam or something.
>snip
>
> •One of the always-suspect polystyrene blocks in the ends is
comming
> unglued from the underside of the deck. Had a lot of trouble
getting
> them on, not enough epoxy left for more than a few dots here and
there,
> ended up using wall adhesive.
> TO DO: Either I re-epoxy them in place, or I build up the blocks a
> little more (about 6 inches clearance now) and used battens to trap
them
> in place.
>
> Suggestions/comments welcome!
>
> Regards,
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Matthew Long, Agnès Peillet & Fletcher Shane Peillet-Long
> Saint-Priest (Rhône Alpes), France
> Boats, planes, baby and more! Des bateaux, des avions, le
bébé, et
> encore plus!
>http://www.geocities.com/owlnmole
Juin (French for June) Bug "Polliwog" launched 18.9.2000

The bad news…

•My closed oarlocks (2 1/4", I think) are too big for the oars, too much
play.
TO DO: Add a second layer to the Payson cord-epoxy leathers, to take up
some of the play.

•The aft thwart, the one not on a frame, split (broke the plywood near
the side cleat) from a single person sitting heavily on the port side.
The port aft corner of the seat went right down to the bottom (stuffed
lifejackets under, teased mother-in-law, kept on messing about).
TO DO: Make epoxy/nails repair of thwart. Add a second side cleat each
under the thwart stiffeners (or maybe little posts right down to the
chine logs) to take pressure off the ply. Do the same under unsupported
ends of other two thwarts.

•One of the always-suspect polystyrene blocks in the ends is comming
unglued from the underside of the deck. Had a lot of trouble getting
them on, not enough epoxy left for more than a few dots here and there,
ended up using wall adhesive.
TO DO: Either I re-epoxy them in place, or I build up the blocks a
little more (about 6 inches clearance now) and used battens to trap them
in place.

Suggestions/comments welcome!

Regards,

Matthew

--
Matthew Long, Agnès Peillet & Fletcher Shane Peillet-Long
Saint-Priest (Rhône Alpes), France
Boats, planes, baby and more! Des bateaux, des avions, le bébé, et
encore plus!
http://www.geocities.com/owlnmole