Re: [bolger] moaning chair
>What a great idea.
> Here Here!! That's my experience with Raka as well. We use small clear
> plastic cups, and nest them inside foam cups that have water and ice in
> them. Keeps the Epoxy cool for a while which seems to extend pot life
Jeff
Howdy
plastic cups, and nest them inside foam cups that have water and ice in
them. Keeps the Epoxy cool for a while which seems to extend pot life
See Ya
Have Fun
Bruce
http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
> -----Original Message-----Here Here!! That's my experience with Raka as well. We use small clear
> Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
>
> I've even been know to "guess-ti-mate" adding resin/hardener
> when I screw up
> and have too much wood flour and it's to dry. Still no problems.
plastic cups, and nest them inside foam cups that have water and ice in
them. Keeps the Epoxy cool for a while which seems to extend pot life
See Ya
Have Fun
Bruce
http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
I did a big oops with my old pumps. I put the Resin pump in a new bottle of
hardener and the hardener pump in resin. The next day, neither would work
but amazingly it didn't seem to bother the bottles any. I also know that
this is what caused my mix up earlier with the Amas as the pumps where
labeled with red for hardener and green for resin.
Ah, slow but surely, the real truth comes out to my lapse of brain power a
few weeks ago!
Lesson learned is not to get out a bottle of each to exchange at the same
time. As the old saying goes, "Do one thing at a time and do it well! Then
move on to the next."
Work with epoxy long enough and you'll make a mistake. Luckily I destroyed
just the pumps and not $80.00 worth of epoxy.
Jeff
hardener and the hardener pump in resin. The next day, neither would work
but amazingly it didn't seem to bother the bottles any. I also know that
this is what caused my mix up earlier with the Amas as the pumps where
labeled with red for hardener and green for resin.
Ah, slow but surely, the real truth comes out to my lapse of brain power a
few weeks ago!
Lesson learned is not to get out a bottle of each to exchange at the same
time. As the old saying goes, "Do one thing at a time and do it well! Then
move on to the next."
Work with epoxy long enough and you'll make a mistake. Luckily I destroyed
just the pumps and not $80.00 worth of epoxy.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
> Alas, the new pumps from Raka are all identical. I just replaced mine
after
> 3 years and all they have are the tall size so you have to pump twice on
the
> Resin. - Jeff
>
> Jeff:
> I'm guessing that you threw the old pumps away. If you did, too bad. I
just got new pumps too, and I simply changed the spacer from the old pumps
to the new ones. It was a little messy, but worth it. I should measure
those things and offer them for sale for big bucks.
>
In a message dated 6/17/03 2:42:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
brucehallman@...writes:
of Sunday's ago. Very dramatic and scary! Blood all over everything, not
excluding the push-stick! Didn't do much for production or my ego. The folks at the
E.R. seemed a little disappointed that only one finger was involved and that
it was still pretty firmly attached. I guess it was a slow night. I had ample
time at the E.R. to determine that I had no need to have my left hand closer
than 1' from the blade to make the cut I planned, which I demonstrated
three-fold after my discharge. After a night's sleep, I realized that there really was
no compelling reason why those particular rabbets needed to started in the
middle of the board anyway. Duh! This is the sort of stuff that happens if
you're afflicted with poor spatial relations and thinking about the next cut before
completing the one you're doing at the time.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brucehallman@...writes:
> I already do this 'focus exercise', (countingGood Idea! I managed to stick my left index finger into a table saw a couple
> my ten fingers), [knock on wood], everytime
> I use power tools. Electric plane, skil saw(s),
> table saw, etc..
>
of Sunday's ago. Very dramatic and scary! Blood all over everything, not
excluding the push-stick! Didn't do much for production or my ego. The folks at the
E.R. seemed a little disappointed that only one finger was involved and that
it was still pretty firmly attached. I guess it was a slow night. I had ample
time at the E.R. to determine that I had no need to have my left hand closer
than 1' from the blade to make the cut I planned, which I demonstrated
three-fold after my discharge. After a night's sleep, I realized that there really was
no compelling reason why those particular rabbets needed to started in the
middle of the board anyway. Duh! This is the sort of stuff that happens if
you're afflicted with poor spatial relations and thinking about the next cut before
completing the one you're doing at the time.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alas, the new pumps from Raka are all identical. I just replaced mine after
3 years and all they have are the tall size so you have to pump twice on the
Resin. - Jeff
Jeff:
I'm guessing that you threw the old pumps away. If you did, too bad. I just got new pumps too, and I simply changed the spacer from the old pumps to the new ones. It was a little messy, but worth it. I should measure those things and offer them for sale for big bucks.
Chuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
3 years and all they have are the tall size so you have to pump twice on the
Resin. - Jeff
Jeff:
I'm guessing that you threw the old pumps away. If you did, too bad. I just got new pumps too, and I simply changed the spacer from the old pumps to the new ones. It was a little messy, but worth it. I should measure those things and offer them for sale for big bucks.
Chuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 6/17/03 2:51:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
james@...writes:
couldn't be simplified and the quantity of one "pump" of each is as small as it
makes any sense to bother with.
You may be right about accuracy, though. I haven't had any problems with
curing, but I run out of resin before I run out of hardener. The difference
becomes increasingly apparent as the leftover material below the pump pickup is
poured into the new containers. After 3 iterations the discrepancy is pretty
noticeable. After enough iterations I should be far enough ahead on hardener to
just order a gallon of resin and put the surplus resin to use. (Oh, happy day!)
Of course, this might be an artifact of container sizes or the greater
viscosity of the resin, or some other factor other than pump accuracy. I dunno.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
james@...writes:
> Seems a lot more accurate to me and certainly easier.I dunno about easier. WEST's 1:1 pump ratio in the "B" size (.98 gal resin)
>
couldn't be simplified and the quantity of one "pump" of each is as small as it
makes any sense to bother with.
You may be right about accuracy, though. I haven't had any problems with
curing, but I run out of resin before I run out of hardener. The difference
becomes increasingly apparent as the leftover material below the pump pickup is
poured into the new containers. After 3 iterations the discrepancy is pretty
noticeable. After enough iterations I should be far enough ahead on hardener to
just order a gallon of resin and put the surplus resin to use. (Oh, happy day!)
Of course, this might be an artifact of container sizes or the greater
viscosity of the resin, or some other factor other than pump accuracy. I dunno.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I also just replaced my copy of 100 SailboatIt seems that Jim (Melcher?) of Alert reports big troubles with
>Rigs, [long ago lost], and the new version
>103 Sailboat Rigs has an appendix [written by SA]
>that describes in depth the evolution, and
>thought behind the development of the Chinese
>Gaff Rig.
battens breaking on this rig, and that from that standpoint it may
not be an improvement on the Chinese lugsail.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
Sorry to hear about your goof-up Bruce :-(
But thanks for sharing it,as it may serve to remind the rest of us
epoxy chefs to keep firing on all two pistons.I can admit to my share
of screw ups and thankfully none of them include an epoxy goof( touch
wood,light 3 candles,pee sitting down and chew my food 40 times). My
most recent involved mirroring the outboard cutout on Windermeres
bottom. It only took me several weeks to realise it was on the wrong
side. A humbling letter to our Hero confessed this screw-up and
sought advice.I secretly hoped that it would not matter but in the
end,I was informed that regretably it must be corrected for the sake
of permitting the steering cable to properly do its job etc....
For punishment, I took pictures of each step of the correction and
will be posting them for all to see once the film is developed.
Of course,I will no longer make THAT mistake again but happily
Windermere is a big boat loaded with"learning" opportunities :-).I
can't wait to see what the next bump on my learning curve will
be.........
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,convinced that the sign of a true craftsman is seen in
how he/she corrects so called screw-ups,otherwise he is nothing but a
garden variety technician worthy of nothing stronger then milk and
cookies.............
But thanks for sharing it,as it may serve to remind the rest of us
epoxy chefs to keep firing on all two pistons.I can admit to my share
of screw ups and thankfully none of them include an epoxy goof( touch
wood,light 3 candles,pee sitting down and chew my food 40 times). My
most recent involved mirroring the outboard cutout on Windermeres
bottom. It only took me several weeks to realise it was on the wrong
side. A humbling letter to our Hero confessed this screw-up and
sought advice.I secretly hoped that it would not matter but in the
end,I was informed that regretably it must be corrected for the sake
of permitting the steering cable to properly do its job etc....
For punishment, I took pictures of each step of the correction and
will be posting them for all to see once the film is developed.
Of course,I will no longer make THAT mistake again but happily
Windermere is a big boat loaded with"learning" opportunities :-).I
can't wait to see what the next bump on my learning curve will
be.........
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,convinced that the sign of a true craftsman is seen in
how he/she corrects so called screw-ups,otherwise he is nothing but a
garden variety technician worthy of nothing stronger then milk and
cookies.............
You are absolutly right about the ratios. I have found it nearly impossible
to mix
a 5 to 1 in small quantities. I use the same cups that you are talking
about. You
probably right about perfection too. I'm certainly not perfect in my other
work habits.
james
-----Original Message-----
From: jeff [mailto:boatbuilding@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 2:33 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
I love the pumps. I use the throw away 12oz. plastic drink cups. The blue
or red ones you can by 48 in a package for just a few dollars. Using the
pumps I mix in these cups and pitch them away and only use the measuring
cups when I have to mix big patches by pouring from the bottles.
With the 2:1 ratio of Raka, I don't get too excited about perfection. I
think anything within say 3% variance is acceptable with Raka. I have a
mark on my Hardener pump to show 1/2 stroke so I can mix a 1 pump resin to
1/2 pump hardener and I know I never get it exact but have yet to have any
problems.
I've even been know to "guess-ti-mate" adding resin/hardener when I screw up
and have too much wood flour and it's to dry. Still no problems.
With epoxies of 3, 4, & 5 to one mixes, it becomes much more critical.
Love the Raka stuff, it seems tolerant of my poor mixing habits.
Jeff
to mix
a 5 to 1 in small quantities. I use the same cups that you are talking
about. You
probably right about perfection too. I'm certainly not perfect in my other
work habits.
james
-----Original Message-----
From: jeff [mailto:boatbuilding@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 2:33 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
I love the pumps. I use the throw away 12oz. plastic drink cups. The blue
or red ones you can by 48 in a package for just a few dollars. Using the
pumps I mix in these cups and pitch them away and only use the measuring
cups when I have to mix big patches by pouring from the bottles.
With the 2:1 ratio of Raka, I don't get too excited about perfection. I
think anything within say 3% variance is acceptable with Raka. I have a
mark on my Hardener pump to show 1/2 stroke so I can mix a 1 pump resin to
1/2 pump hardener and I know I never get it exact but have yet to have any
problems.
I've even been know to "guess-ti-mate" adding resin/hardener when I screw up
and have too much wood flour and it's to dry. Still no problems.
With epoxies of 3, 4, & 5 to one mixes, it becomes much more critical.
Love the Raka stuff, it seems tolerant of my poor mixing habits.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "james fuller" <james@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: [bolger] moaning chair
>
> My experience with the pumps provided by the epoxy sellers is mixed at
best.
> If the
> two parts are not too viscous and if there are no air bubbles in the pump,
> and if my
> pump strokes are just right they work fine. I really don't like them at
all.
>
> I bought a small scale and use that to measure epoxy with. The ratios are
> not the
> same but your source can tell you what the mix by weight proportions is.
> using the
> tare feature so that the weight of the mixing container is not a problem
> pour them
> in and mix them. the scale I have has both ounce and gram scales so that
> you can
> mix any reasonable amount, large or small. Also, the epoxy I use has
clear
> resin
> and amber curing agent which helps. I'm sure that I would have poured in
> two
> resins otherwise.
>
> Seems a lot more accurate to me and certainly easier.
>
> James
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sctree [mailto:sctree@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:33 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
>
>
> Before I had a decent pump, (a "Sticky Stuff" pump by Micheal
> Engineering?) that pumps both resin and hardener in the corrrect ratio
> at the same time, I used to pre-pour resin into big cups and hardener
> into little cups. Then it was only a matter of one big cup and one
> little cup for each batch of epoxy needed.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I love the pumps. I use the throw away 12oz. plastic drink cups. The blue
or red ones you can by 48 in a package for just a few dollars. Using the
pumps I mix in these cups and pitch them away and only use the measuring
cups when I have to mix big patches by pouring from the bottles.
With the 2:1 ratio of Raka, I don't get too excited about perfection. I
think anything within say 3% variance is acceptable with Raka. I have a
mark on my Hardener pump to show 1/2 stroke so I can mix a 1 pump resin to
1/2 pump hardener and I know I never get it exact but have yet to have any
problems.
I've even been know to "guess-ti-mate" adding resin/hardener when I screw up
and have too much wood flour and it's to dry. Still no problems.
With epoxies of 3, 4, & 5 to one mixes, it becomes much more critical.
Love the Raka stuff, it seems tolerant of my poor mixing habits.
Jeff
or red ones you can by 48 in a package for just a few dollars. Using the
pumps I mix in these cups and pitch them away and only use the measuring
cups when I have to mix big patches by pouring from the bottles.
With the 2:1 ratio of Raka, I don't get too excited about perfection. I
think anything within say 3% variance is acceptable with Raka. I have a
mark on my Hardener pump to show 1/2 stroke so I can mix a 1 pump resin to
1/2 pump hardener and I know I never get it exact but have yet to have any
problems.
I've even been know to "guess-ti-mate" adding resin/hardener when I screw up
and have too much wood flour and it's to dry. Still no problems.
With epoxies of 3, 4, & 5 to one mixes, it becomes much more critical.
Love the Raka stuff, it seems tolerant of my poor mixing habits.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "james fuller" <james@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: [bolger] moaning chair
>
> My experience with the pumps provided by the epoxy sellers is mixed at
best.
> If the
> two parts are not too viscous and if there are no air bubbles in the pump,
> and if my
> pump strokes are just right they work fine. I really don't like them at
all.
>
> I bought a small scale and use that to measure epoxy with. The ratios are
> not the
> same but your source can tell you what the mix by weight proportions is.
> using the
> tare feature so that the weight of the mixing container is not a problem
> pour them
> in and mix them. the scale I have has both ounce and gram scales so that
> you can
> mix any reasonable amount, large or small. Also, the epoxy I use has
clear
> resin
> and amber curing agent which helps. I'm sure that I would have poured in
> two
> resins otherwise.
>
> Seems a lot more accurate to me and certainly easier.
>
> James
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sctree [mailto:sctree@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:33 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
>
>
> Before I had a decent pump, (a "Sticky Stuff" pump by Micheal
> Engineering?) that pumps both resin and hardener in the corrrect ratio
> at the same time, I used to pre-pour resin into big cups and hardener
> into little cups. Then it was only a matter of one big cup and one
> little cup for each batch of epoxy needed.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
My experience with the pumps provided by the epoxy sellers is mixed at best.
If the
two parts are not too viscous and if there are no air bubbles in the pump,
and if my
pump strokes are just right they work fine. I really don't like them at all.
I bought a small scale and use that to measure epoxy with. The ratios are
not the
same but your source can tell you what the mix by weight proportions is.
using the
tare feature so that the weight of the mixing container is not a problem
pour them
in and mix them. the scale I have has both ounce and gram scales so that
you can
mix any reasonable amount, large or small. Also, the epoxy I use has clear
resin
and amber curing agent which helps. I'm sure that I would have poured in
two
resins otherwise.
Seems a lot more accurate to me and certainly easier.
James
-----Original Message-----
From: sctree [mailto:sctree@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:33 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
Before I had a decent pump, (a "Sticky Stuff" pump by Micheal
Engineering?) that pumps both resin and hardener in the corrrect ratio
at the same time, I used to pre-pour resin into big cups and hardener
into little cups. Then it was only a matter of one big cup and one
little cup for each batch of epoxy needed.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
If the
two parts are not too viscous and if there are no air bubbles in the pump,
and if my
pump strokes are just right they work fine. I really don't like them at all.
I bought a small scale and use that to measure epoxy with. The ratios are
not the
same but your source can tell you what the mix by weight proportions is.
using the
tare feature so that the weight of the mixing container is not a problem
pour them
in and mix them. the scale I have has both ounce and gram scales so that
you can
mix any reasonable amount, large or small. Also, the epoxy I use has clear
resin
and amber curing agent which helps. I'm sure that I would have poured in
two
resins otherwise.
Seems a lot more accurate to me and certainly easier.
James
-----Original Message-----
From: sctree [mailto:sctree@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:33 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
Before I had a decent pump, (a "Sticky Stuff" pump by Micheal
Engineering?) that pumps both resin and hardener in the corrrect ratio
at the same time, I used to pre-pour resin into big cups and hardener
into little cups. Then it was only a matter of one big cup and one
little cup for each batch of epoxy needed.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--- "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
epoxy), I need to exercise more mind control.
...take a deep breath, focus my mind,
count each pump stroke carefully...
I already do this 'focus exercise', (counting
my ten fingers), [knock on wood], everytime
I use power tools. Electric plane, skil saw(s),
table saw, etc..
I didn't know about acetone,
I will try that too.
> Alas, the new pumps from Raka are all identical.Yes. I think, in the future,(before mixing
epoxy), I need to exercise more mind control.
...take a deep breath, focus my mind,
count each pump stroke carefully...
I already do this 'focus exercise', (counting
my ten fingers), [knock on wood], everytime
I use power tools. Electric plane, skil saw(s),
table saw, etc..
I didn't know about acetone,
I will try that too.
Before I had a decent pump, (a "Sticky Stuff" pump by Micheal
Engineering?) that pumps both resin and hardener in the corrrect ratio
at the same time, I used to pre-pour resin into big cups and hardener
into little cups. Then it was only a matter of one big cup and one
little cup for each batch of epoxy needed.
Engineering?) that pumps both resin and hardener in the corrrect ratio
at the same time, I used to pre-pour resin into big cups and hardener
into little cups. Then it was only a matter of one big cup and one
little cup for each batch of epoxy needed.
Alas, the new pumps from Raka are all identical. I just replaced mine after
3 years and all they have are the tall size so you have to pump twice on the
Resin. Maybe they where out but that's all Larry said they had anymore.
The mix up of 2:1 happened to me a couple weeks ago. First off, I put a few
drops of Resin in one spot and mixed it into the goop and then did the same
in another spot with Hardener. The next morning I found the spot with the
Resin hard as a rock while the spot with Hardener was soft. This told me I
had did the 2:1 with Hardener versus Resin. I removed much of the goop and
fiberglass tape with a putty knife and acetone then mix a batch of epoxy
with 1/3 less hardener as needed. I spread this on the goop and tried to
mix it all up the best I could with a wire brush then evened it all out.
The next morning, low and behold the whole mess had set up nicely. I dug
into it to make sure it had penetrated and it seems to have done well. Now
I did precoat the butt joint with a proper mix and it was the epoxy that I
laid the glass on that was mixed wrong to I think I got lucky and it hadn't
penetrated the Luan.
Time will tell if it'll hold but it's on the Amas of my Trilars so I figured
what the heck, worse case scenario is the splices fail but I doubt it'll be
all at once, more than likely they'll leak first.
Jeff
3 years and all they have are the tall size so you have to pump twice on the
Resin. Maybe they where out but that's all Larry said they had anymore.
The mix up of 2:1 happened to me a couple weeks ago. First off, I put a few
drops of Resin in one spot and mixed it into the goop and then did the same
in another spot with Hardener. The next morning I found the spot with the
Resin hard as a rock while the spot with Hardener was soft. This told me I
had did the 2:1 with Hardener versus Resin. I removed much of the goop and
fiberglass tape with a putty knife and acetone then mix a batch of epoxy
with 1/3 less hardener as needed. I spread this on the goop and tried to
mix it all up the best I could with a wire brush then evened it all out.
The next morning, low and behold the whole mess had set up nicely. I dug
into it to make sure it had penetrated and it seems to have done well. Now
I did precoat the butt joint with a proper mix and it was the epoxy that I
laid the glass on that was mixed wrong to I think I got lucky and it hadn't
penetrated the Luan.
Time will tell if it'll hold but it's on the Amas of my Trilars so I figured
what the heck, worse case scenario is the splices fail but I doubt it'll be
all at once, more than likely they'll leak first.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] moaning chair
> Last night I realized I had used
> *two* parts hardener, *one* part resin,
> and spent the better part of the evening
> attempting to scrape off the goey mess.
>
> Arggh. This is the second time I have
> made such a mistake! - Bruce
> Bruce: I guess we need to take up a collection to raise the 10 bucks to
get you a set of pumps. Otherwise we may never see that Micro sailing. The
Raka pumps are set to the 2:1 ratio, so you use one pump of each. It's hard
to screw that up.
>
> Chuck
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Last night I realized I had used
*two* parts hardener, *one* part resin,
and spent the better part of the evening
attempting to scrape off the goey mess.
Arggh. This is the second time I have
made such a mistake! - Bruce
Bruce: I guess we need to take up a collection to raise the 10 bucks to get you a set of pumps. Otherwise we may never see that Micro sailing. The Raka pumps are set to the 2:1 ratio, so you use one pump of each. It's hard to screw that up.
Chuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*two* parts hardener, *one* part resin,
and spent the better part of the evening
attempting to scrape off the goey mess.
Arggh. This is the second time I have
made such a mistake! - Bruce
Bruce: I guess we need to take up a collection to raise the 10 bucks to get you a set of pumps. Otherwise we may never see that Micro sailing. The Raka pumps are set to the 2:1 ratio, so you use one pump of each. It's hard to screw that up.
Chuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No reply necessary, but pls let me
moan, for the therapeutic value.
Over the weekend, I mixed up a batch
of Raka epoxy, one part hardener,
two parts resin. And, applied it,
with fumed silica and sawdust, to
fill in various bolt holes, and
cosmetic cracks on my Micro
Navigator project.
Last night I realized I had used
*two* parts hardener, *one* part resin,
and spent the better part of the evening
attempting to scrape off the goey mess.
Arggh. This is the second time I have
made such a mistake!
On a positive note, I also am at the
stage of building the masts. More and
more I am understanding the principles
behind the Chinese Gaff Rig, and I find
their invention to be fascinating.
One item of interest, the mizzen mast is
nearly as strong as the main mast, because
it carries much [up to half] of the force
on the main sail.
The plans call for an untapered mast,
schedule 40 aluminum pipe, or wood.
The pipe, $400. The wood, $17.
Guess which I chose.
All those intermediate sheets result in
lots of lines in the cabin, but also must
allow for above average control of the
shape of the sail.
I also just replaced my copy of 100 Sailboat
Rigs, [long ago lost], and the new version
103 Sailboat Rigs has an appendix [written by SA]
that describes in depth the evolution, and
thought behind the development of the Chinese
Gaff Rig.
moan, for the therapeutic value.
Over the weekend, I mixed up a batch
of Raka epoxy, one part hardener,
two parts resin. And, applied it,
with fumed silica and sawdust, to
fill in various bolt holes, and
cosmetic cracks on my Micro
Navigator project.
Last night I realized I had used
*two* parts hardener, *one* part resin,
and spent the better part of the evening
attempting to scrape off the goey mess.
Arggh. This is the second time I have
made such a mistake!
On a positive note, I also am at the
stage of building the masts. More and
more I am understanding the principles
behind the Chinese Gaff Rig, and I find
their invention to be fascinating.
One item of interest, the mizzen mast is
nearly as strong as the main mast, because
it carries much [up to half] of the force
on the main sail.
The plans call for an untapered mast,
schedule 40 aluminum pipe, or wood.
The pipe, $400. The wood, $17.
Guess which I chose.
All those intermediate sheets result in
lots of lines in the cabin, but also must
allow for above average control of the
shape of the sail.
I also just replaced my copy of 100 Sailboat
Rigs, [long ago lost], and the new version
103 Sailboat Rigs has an appendix [written by SA]
that describes in depth the evolution, and
thought behind the development of the Chinese
Gaff Rig.
Chuck,
My old skiff ( a John Howard built boat) was made entirely of
marine grade ply,oak, and bronze fastenings, it had no epoxy on it and
it was still going strong after 30 years as a tender. It is now on its
third owner! That is a pretty good endorsement for the stuff. I
realize that some batches of marine grade plywood have been pretty bad
in recent years and there is no guarantee of preventing checking with
them.
Happy building,
David Jost "boat flipping party next weekend" :-)
My old skiff ( a John Howard built boat) was made entirely of
marine grade ply,oak, and bronze fastenings, it had no epoxy on it and
it was still going strong after 30 years as a tender. It is now on its
third owner! That is a pretty good endorsement for the stuff. I
realize that some batches of marine grade plywood have been pretty bad
in recent years and there is no guarantee of preventing checking with
them.
Happy building,
David Jost "boat flipping party next weekend" :-)
>
> > Chuck,
> > I am sure that your soap box is just as sturdy and as seaworthy
> > as mine is.
> > I had a lot of trouble selling my Diablo (it is still in the
> > yard) the reasons for this are many, but most potential buyers were
> > put off by the visible checking in the plywood and the cheap wood I
> > used. It is noticeable.
> > The marine ply is a real pleasure to use after building a number
> > of boats with AC, Luan (don't do it), and not sheathing in epoxy. I
> > have to say the "Firefly" is coming out quite nicely with the use of
> > bronze, copper, epoxy and marine ply. But, this boat is one I plan
> > to use until the children get tired of Dad's boat. I then hope to
> > unload it for a reasonable fee to finance the next project. Hmm, an
> > AS29 would do nicely!
> >
> > Enjoy, the building season is coming to a close here in Boston.
> >
> > David Jost
> > "wrapping boats in plastic and tarps, in Boston"
I see you're considering Long Micro too. Have you seen my LM
pages:
http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm
http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr_faq.htm
I launched mighty Zephyr in 1994, I have basically nothing but
good things to say about the design. See my mini-FAQ (linked
above) for various comments about how she sails, how long it
took to build, etc.
The 18" draft does compromise windward performance
compared to a J/24, but she flies off the wind. Plus I can drop
people off and pick people up in knee-deep water at the
beach...not too many J/24s can do that! I admit I haven't done
any real ocean sailing in her--just daysailing/weekending--so I
can't comment on how she would perform in high winds, seas,
etc.
After six seasons, she's still in excellent condition. I used
marine fir ply throughout the hull, covered with 4 or 6oz epoxy
cloth, and I've seen very little wear-and-tear. Just paint and go.
I love the smaller Micro design too. I decided to build the LM
because, to me, the Long Micro packs just a bit more "punch" for
not a lot more $$ and time-to-build. Faster, larger interior, bigger
cockpit.
I haven't sailed either the Micro or the MJ, so I really can't
comment on them. But I can certainly recommend LM for
daysailing for 3-4, weekending for 2. To me, the only reason I'd
build/buy a bigger boat would be to do more extensive cruising
for two or three. Right now, I don't anticipate doing that--so
Zephyr sails on!
Good luck in your search for the best boat for you!
Dan
P.S. Another interesting design in this size range is Bolger's
Sea Bird 86. See
http://sites.netscape.net/nohnpages/original.htmlfor interesting
photos etc.
pages:
http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm
http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr_faq.htm
I launched mighty Zephyr in 1994, I have basically nothing but
good things to say about the design. See my mini-FAQ (linked
above) for various comments about how she sails, how long it
took to build, etc.
The 18" draft does compromise windward performance
compared to a J/24, but she flies off the wind. Plus I can drop
people off and pick people up in knee-deep water at the
beach...not too many J/24s can do that! I admit I haven't done
any real ocean sailing in her--just daysailing/weekending--so I
can't comment on how she would perform in high winds, seas,
etc.
After six seasons, she's still in excellent condition. I used
marine fir ply throughout the hull, covered with 4 or 6oz epoxy
cloth, and I've seen very little wear-and-tear. Just paint and go.
I love the smaller Micro design too. I decided to build the LM
because, to me, the Long Micro packs just a bit more "punch" for
not a lot more $$ and time-to-build. Faster, larger interior, bigger
cockpit.
I haven't sailed either the Micro or the MJ, so I really can't
comment on them. But I can certainly recommend LM for
daysailing for 3-4, weekending for 2. To me, the only reason I'd
build/buy a bigger boat would be to do more extensive cruising
for two or three. Right now, I don't anticipate doing that--so
Zephyr sails on!
Good luck in your search for the best boat for you!
Dan
P.S. Another interesting design in this size range is Bolger's
Sea Bird 86. See
http://sites.netscape.net/nohnpages/original.htmlfor interesting
photos etc.
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, staehpj1@h... wrote:
>
> ...
>
> I didn't mention the Long Micro in my original message. Is it a
good
> compromise between the Micro and the MJ? It seems like in
size and
> seaworthieness it would be a great choice. Of course I would
be
> giving up the extra shallow draft of the MJ. There is a lot of
great
> gunkholeing here so that ability would be nice but not
necessary. I
> currently have a shallow water slip that wouldn't work with a
boat
> with a keel of any depth at all. So I would have to get a
different
> slip, but I guess that isn't too big of a deal. The deeper slip
> costs a little more but has fresh water and electricity where my
> bulkhead slip does not.
>
> I really seem to have rambled on. Sorry for the length of my
posts.
>
> Pete Staehling
Hi Pete,
Sorry, but my email's been down a week. Apparently I am the only MJ
owner replying to you.
My first question is, solo or in company? Sounds like most of your
family intends to come along, so you will surely need the larger
boat, the MJ. The Micro is a wonderful ship, but only half the size
of the MJ.
Stability? I shipped an aluminum mast & solved a problem which many
others also had.
MJ has a cruising advantage I have never seen in another boat. It has
a great deal of course stability on all tacks. It means you can leave
the helm & the boat tends herself. I have been perfecting a sheet-to-
tiller selfsteering arrangement this summer, but with what I have
learned about helm balance, I am not sure now I need it.
Who says shallow draft isn't a tremendous advantage? On the Bay,
every foot you save doubles your cruising area. I know that I can
tack out of my mooring, do it routinely, in barely a foot of low
tide. I am about 500 yds from deep water. I know just where to set
the leeboards & the helm to get traction without dragging the bottom.
In fact, I can just about do it without using the rudder.
And you're in luck! I live on the Bay, so come on down for a sail.
And I know I guy not too far from here who owns a Micro.
ED HAILE
Martha Jane "Terrapin"
Sorry, but my email's been down a week. Apparently I am the only MJ
owner replying to you.
My first question is, solo or in company? Sounds like most of your
family intends to come along, so you will surely need the larger
boat, the MJ. The Micro is a wonderful ship, but only half the size
of the MJ.
Stability? I shipped an aluminum mast & solved a problem which many
others also had.
MJ has a cruising advantage I have never seen in another boat. It has
a great deal of course stability on all tacks. It means you can leave
the helm & the boat tends herself. I have been perfecting a sheet-to-
tiller selfsteering arrangement this summer, but with what I have
learned about helm balance, I am not sure now I need it.
Who says shallow draft isn't a tremendous advantage? On the Bay,
every foot you save doubles your cruising area. I know that I can
tack out of my mooring, do it routinely, in barely a foot of low
tide. I am about 500 yds from deep water. I know just where to set
the leeboards & the helm to get traction without dragging the bottom.
In fact, I can just about do it without using the rudder.
And you're in luck! I live on the Bay, so come on down for a sail.
And I know I guy not too far from here who owns a Micro.
ED HAILE
Martha Jane "Terrapin"
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, staehpj1@h... wrote:
> I am going to be building either a Micro or Martha Jane later this
> year. Currently I am leaning toward the Micro, but the shallower
> draft and extra room of the MJ sound attractive.
>
> The boats primary use will be day sailing and trips up to 2 weeks
on
> the Chesapeake Bay. It would be nice to be able to do some coastal
> cruising as well.
>
> I would appreciate some feedback from some of you more experienced
> builder/sailors. How do the two craft compare on the following
> points:
>
> 1. Ease of building for an inexperienced builder. (I have built
> other simple projects and am handy with tools, but the D4 I am
> currently building is the first boat project).
>
> 2. Building expense. How much plywood? How much epoxy? How much
> Framing? Etc.
>
> 3. How do they compare in seaworthiness?
>
> 4. Performance?
>
> Is it a bad idea to use lead instead of the water ballast if
> trailering weight isn't a priority? The extra storage space would
be
> a nice plus and the boat will live in a slip when not being used.
>
> I read about some changes to the lee boards. Do those changes
appear
> on the plans from Common Sense? The ones directly from Bolger?
>
> I have looked at all of the info I have found on the web, but was
> hoping for a little more info to help decide which plans to buy.
> Maybe I need to buy both and compare, but I hate to waste the money
> buying both plans then only using one.
>
> Pete
Howard Chapelle in Boatbuilding. I got one and use it.
HJ
% Harrywelshman@...
HJ
>_ _ _ _ _
> I've forgotten - was it Chapelle or L.F.H. or someone else who wrote that an
> essential component for a well-equiped boat shop was a "moaning chair" - a
> comfortable armchair giving a good view of the works in progress, where the
> builder can ruminate about his difficulties while contemplating the problem?
> Seemed like very good advice to me!
>
> Bill in MN
% Harrywelshman@...
David:
I will be interested to hear 1) how well your Firefly weathers time and 2)
what kind of money you are able to get for her. I'm pulling for you, just a
little skeptical.
Chuck
I will be interested to hear 1) how well your Firefly weathers time and 2)
what kind of money you are able to get for her. I'm pulling for you, just a
little skeptical.
Chuck
> Chuck,
> I am sure that your soap box is just as sturdy and as seaworthy
> as mine is.
> I had a lot of trouble selling my Diablo (it is still in the
> yard) the reasons for this are many, but most potential buyers were
> put off by the visible checking in the plywood and the cheap wood I
> used. It is noticeable.
> The marine ply is a real pleasure to use after building a number
> of boats with AC, Luan (don't do it), and not sheathing in epoxy. I
> have to say the "Firefly" is coming out quite nicely with the use of
> bronze, copper, epoxy and marine ply. But, this boat is one I plan
> to use until the children get tired of Dad's boat. I then hope to
> unload it for a reasonable fee to finance the next project. Hmm, an
> AS29 would do nicely!
>
> Enjoy, the building season is coming to a close here in Boston.
>
> David Jost
> "wrapping boats in plastic and tarps, in Boston"
Chuck,
I am sure that your soap box is just as sturdy and as seaworthy
as mine is.
I had a lot of trouble selling my Diablo (it is still in the
yard) the reasons for this are many, but most potential buyers were
put off by the visible checking in the plywood and the cheap wood I
used. It is noticeable.
The marine ply is a real pleasure to use after building a number
of boats with AC, Luan (don't do it), and not sheathing in epoxy. I
have to say the "Firefly" is coming out quite nicely with the use of
bronze, copper, epoxy and marine ply. But, this boat is one I plan
to use until the children get tired of Dad's boat. I then hope to
unload it for a reasonable fee to finance the next project. Hmm, an
AS29 would do nicely!
Enjoy, the building season is coming to a close here in Boston.
David Jost
"wrapping boats in plastic and tarps, in Boston"
I am sure that your soap box is just as sturdy and as seaworthy
as mine is.
I had a lot of trouble selling my Diablo (it is still in the
yard) the reasons for this are many, but most potential buyers were
put off by the visible checking in the plywood and the cheap wood I
used. It is noticeable.
The marine ply is a real pleasure to use after building a number
of boats with AC, Luan (don't do it), and not sheathing in epoxy. I
have to say the "Firefly" is coming out quite nicely with the use of
bronze, copper, epoxy and marine ply. But, this boat is one I plan
to use until the children get tired of Dad's boat. I then hope to
unload it for a reasonable fee to finance the next project. Hmm, an
AS29 would do nicely!
Enjoy, the building season is coming to a close here in Boston.
David Jost
"wrapping boats in plastic and tarps, in Boston"
> In a message dated 10/13/00 2:32:29 AM Central Daylight Time,I seem to recall that from one of Dynamite Payson's books.
>daniel.curnutte@...writes:
>
> << It can be a pretty lonely business building a boat on your own,
> especially if something isn't going quite right. >>
>
> I've forgotten - was it Chapelle or L.F.H. or someone else who wrote that an
> essential component for a well-equiped boat shop was a "moaning chair"
In a message dated 10/13/00 2:32:29 AM Central Daylight Time,
daniel.curnutte@...writes:
<< It can be a pretty lonely business building a boat on your own,
especially if something isn't going quite right. >>
I've forgotten - was it Chapelle or L.F.H. or someone else who wrote that an
essential component for a well-equiped boat shop was a "moaning chair" - a
comfortable armchair giving a good view of the works in progress, where the
builder can ruminate about his difficulties while contemplating the problem?
Seemed like very good advice to me!
Bill in MN
daniel.curnutte@...writes:
<< It can be a pretty lonely business building a boat on your own,
especially if something isn't going quite right. >>
I've forgotten - was it Chapelle or L.F.H. or someone else who wrote that an
essential component for a well-equiped boat shop was a "moaning chair" - a
comfortable armchair giving a good view of the works in progress, where the
builder can ruminate about his difficulties while contemplating the problem?
Seemed like very good advice to me!
Bill in MN
> The questionI wonder if there are really a lot of buyers of homemade boats period. I
> is, "Who would buy it later?" I do not know many potential buyers who
> would consider buying a boat that is not made with marine grade gear.
have sold two boats that were built with non marine grade materials, but it
was not easy. Most buyers want a used boat with proven resale value. That
lets us out. I am probably in a minority, but I will continue to build with
cheap materials. I figure that these boats will perform as well as the same
boat made with "marine" materials, and will last at least until I become
bored with them.
OK, I'll step off my soapbox now.
Chuck
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, staehpj1@h... wrote:
date, I have spent about $2000 this includes using Bronze fastenings,
Marine Ply, and about 2.5 gals of Epoxy, and fiberglass. this does not
track ancillary expenses such as rubber gloves, dust masks, tarps,
brushes. However, with that said, I could have used galvanized nails,
no epoxy, no glass, and AC grade ply and saved a bundle. The question
is, "Who would buy it later?" I do not know many potential buyers who
would consider buying a boat that is not made with marine grade gear.
The marine ply is a pleasure to work with.
I had the lead keel poured at a foundry in RI for $265. It was
much easier and faster than collecting old wheel weights.
boat can be buttoned up fast to keep out a sea. (I left out the
magazine rack style vent in the front bulkhead to get a tighter
envelope, but may concede and add it later.
wind. NO better, it will make quite a bit of leeway.
I am figuring that I have about:
$700 trailer
$800 motor (long shaft, used)
$200 plywood for decks
$150 fastenings and paint.
$400 epoxy and glass for decks and sides
total to add = 2,250 US.
the boat will be around $5000 - $6000 to build using first class gear.
I am definately an amateur, and it has gone pretty well so far. I
have made a few boo-boos and paid for them with my credit card,
fortunately no fingers.
I have found that finding the time to fair the bottom and sides has
been the most demanding so far. I have spent about 10 hours of
filling, and sanding so far. It is very tedious and boring. Building
the hull is fun.
David Jost "Boston"
> I am going to be building either a Micro or Martha Jane later thisI am currently in the process of finishing the bottom of my Micro; to
> year. Currently I am leaning toward the Micro, but the shallower
> draft and extra room of the MJ sound attractive.
>
> The boats primary use will be day sailing and trips up to 2 weeks on
> the Chesapeake Bay. It would be nice to be able to do some coastal
> cruising as well.
>
> I would appreciate some feedback from some of you more experienced
> builder/sailors. How do the two craft compare on the following
> points:
>
> 1. Ease of building for an inexperienced builder. (I have built
> other simple projects and am handy with tools, but the D4 I am
> currently building is the first boat project).
date, I have spent about $2000 this includes using Bronze fastenings,
Marine Ply, and about 2.5 gals of Epoxy, and fiberglass. this does not
track ancillary expenses such as rubber gloves, dust masks, tarps,
brushes. However, with that said, I could have used galvanized nails,
no epoxy, no glass, and AC grade ply and saved a bundle. The question
is, "Who would buy it later?" I do not know many potential buyers who
would consider buying a boat that is not made with marine grade gear.
The marine ply is a pleasure to work with.
I had the lead keel poured at a foundry in RI for $265. It was
much easier and faster than collecting old wheel weights.
>I don't know, but with the keel it has to be better than MJ. This
> 2. Building expense. How much plywood? How much epoxy? How much
> Framing? Etc.
>
> 3. How do they compare in seaworthiness?
boat can be buttoned up fast to keep out a sea. (I left out the
magazine rack style vent in the front bulkhead to get a tighter
envelope, but may concede and add it later.
>It should sail like a catboat, a little shy of a 45 degrees to the true
> 4. Performance?
wind. NO better, it will make quite a bit of leeway.
I am figuring that I have about:
$700 trailer
$800 motor (long shaft, used)
$200 plywood for decks
$150 fastenings and paint.
$400 epoxy and glass for decks and sides
total to add = 2,250 US.
the boat will be around $5000 - $6000 to build using first class gear.
I am definately an amateur, and it has gone pretty well so far. I
have made a few boo-boos and paid for them with my credit card,
fortunately no fingers.
I have found that finding the time to fair the bottom and sides has
been the most demanding so far. I have spent about 10 hours of
filling, and sanding so far. It is very tedious and boring. Building
the hull is fun.
>Good luck,
David Jost "Boston"
>
>
>
>
> I didn't mention the Long Micro in my original message. Is it agood
> compromise between the Micro and the MJ?I have not built or sailed any of these boats, but I have a couple of
comments. First, Bolger published a detailed article on the stability
of, and new option for, MJ in a MAIB this fall. It should answer all
your questions, as well as outline some additional decisions to make,
e.g. sponsons or no sponsons. Call MAIB and buy a copy.
Second, the factor of draft depends a lot on your sailing area and
gunkholing plans. The Micro's, Long and Short, can sail in less water
than MJ which has deeper leeboards. Or, to be more accurate, can sail
in less water with the leeboards in their 'standard' position. So for
sailing in very shallow water, I think the Micros may have the edge,
but for beaching and anchoring in ankle deep water, MJ has the edge.
Not many people do a lot of hard sailing in water that would trip a
Micro. In water that thin, a single large rock is a major hazard.
I think the world of Long Micro, and would go that way if the boat
was for Barnegat Bay (with which I am more familar than the
Chesapeake), assuming I didn't go for Chebacco.
Peter
Thanks to those of you who have replied to my message. I hope others
will continue to. The feedback helps me a lot.
I have a few additional clarifications of my needs and a few more
questions.
Chuck, since you asked I will say that I am a "scrounger
extrodinaire". I am definately not above most scrounging methods
including "dumpster dipping". In short, I come from a long line of
cheapskates! When I was growing up my family never paid anyone to do
anything for them. Plumbing, carpentry, masonry, auto repair, and
electrical work were all done by my 4 brothers and myself under my
Dad's guidance. I can also sew so making sails doesn't intimidate me
too much.
Daniel, I have a schedule that will allow me quite a bit of work
time. I get off at 2:30 in the afternoon, so there is lots of
daylight left most afternoons. Also I am the type of worker that
usually rolls through a project quickly. I plan to make a very
functional plain jane type of boat not a luxury yacht. I hope to
have the boat in the water next summer. Perhaps I am dreaming.
I agree that having a building partner is a good idea. My teenage
daughter is very excited about the project. In fact her enthusiasm
was what pushed me over the edge in my decision to build. She is a
hard worker and will be a real asset. My wife can probably be
convinced to led a hand now and then as well. She likes to sail but
doesn't see why we want to build a boat. Both of them are handy and
mechanically inclined.
Peter, the reason I asked about if there was any drawback to the lead
ballast was just paranoia about deviating from the plans. I probably
wouldn't hesitate to do it, but thought it wise to ask just in case I
was missing some aspect of the modification.
I said "The boats primary use will be day sailing and trips up to 2
weeks on the Chesapeake Bay." perhaps I should have also mentioned
that I am likely to want to do longer cruises later. I also should
have mentioned that I might want to spend a week with two adults and
one or two teenagers aboard sometimes. I guess that would involve
camping under a boom tent for the extra people or possibly going
ashore each evening if necessary. Has anyone used their Micro, LM,
or MJ this way?
I have looked at all of the Micro sites, but have found less info on
the MJ.
I didn't mention the Long Micro in my original message. Is it a good
compromise between the Micro and the MJ? It seems like in size and
seaworthieness it would be a great choice. Of course I would be
giving up the extra shallow draft of the MJ. There is a lot of great
gunkholeing here so that ability would be nice but not necessary. I
currently have a shallow water slip that wouldn't work with a boat
with a keel of any depth at all. So I would have to get a different
slip, but I guess that isn't too big of a deal. The deeper slip
costs a little more but has fresh water and electricity where my
bulkhead slip does not.
I really seem to have rambled on. Sorry for the length of my posts.
Pete Staehling
will continue to. The feedback helps me a lot.
I have a few additional clarifications of my needs and a few more
questions.
Chuck, since you asked I will say that I am a "scrounger
extrodinaire". I am definately not above most scrounging methods
including "dumpster dipping". In short, I come from a long line of
cheapskates! When I was growing up my family never paid anyone to do
anything for them. Plumbing, carpentry, masonry, auto repair, and
electrical work were all done by my 4 brothers and myself under my
Dad's guidance. I can also sew so making sails doesn't intimidate me
too much.
Daniel, I have a schedule that will allow me quite a bit of work
time. I get off at 2:30 in the afternoon, so there is lots of
daylight left most afternoons. Also I am the type of worker that
usually rolls through a project quickly. I plan to make a very
functional plain jane type of boat not a luxury yacht. I hope to
have the boat in the water next summer. Perhaps I am dreaming.
I agree that having a building partner is a good idea. My teenage
daughter is very excited about the project. In fact her enthusiasm
was what pushed me over the edge in my decision to build. She is a
hard worker and will be a real asset. My wife can probably be
convinced to led a hand now and then as well. She likes to sail but
doesn't see why we want to build a boat. Both of them are handy and
mechanically inclined.
Peter, the reason I asked about if there was any drawback to the lead
ballast was just paranoia about deviating from the plans. I probably
wouldn't hesitate to do it, but thought it wise to ask just in case I
was missing some aspect of the modification.
I said "The boats primary use will be day sailing and trips up to 2
weeks on the Chesapeake Bay." perhaps I should have also mentioned
that I am likely to want to do longer cruises later. I also should
have mentioned that I might want to spend a week with two adults and
one or two teenagers aboard sometimes. I guess that would involve
camping under a boom tent for the extra people or possibly going
ashore each evening if necessary. Has anyone used their Micro, LM,
or MJ this way?
I have looked at all of the Micro sites, but have found less info on
the MJ.
I didn't mention the Long Micro in my original message. Is it a good
compromise between the Micro and the MJ? It seems like in size and
seaworthieness it would be a great choice. Of course I would be
giving up the extra shallow draft of the MJ. There is a lot of great
gunkholeing here so that ability would be nice but not necessary. I
currently have a shallow water slip that wouldn't work with a boat
with a keel of any depth at all. So I would have to get a different
slip, but I guess that isn't too big of a deal. The deeper slip
costs a little more but has fresh water and electricity where my
bulkhead slip does not.
I really seem to have rambled on. Sorry for the length of my posts.
Pete Staehling
Pete,
I have never built nor sailed a Martha Jane,thus know little more
then what has already been written about her here and
elsewhere.However,I am but a few chilly weeks short of closing my
MICROs 7th season and can happily rant on about her various virtues
and nurmerous niceties ad nauseum in a most biassed fashion!
It appears that the bulk of your intended sailing will be day
trips with the odd 2 week cruise thrown in for adventure.With this in
mind,the MICRO will fit the bill handsomely!Whether you sail alone or
with a couple of friends,the MICRO will safely and easily take care
of you for the day with space for your picnic lunch!When the 2 week
cruises come up,you will find the amazing volume of her hold more
then adequate for your supplies!
As far as ease of building.....well,a box is a box is a box.One
of them is just a bit longer than the other with slightly different
detailing.Your own level of proficiency with wood working tools,
combined with boat-plan-literacy,will determine for you how"easy" the
job will be.
Building expense is difficult to nail down as prices vary from
region to region(country to country) but the"bigger" boat will cost
more,everything else being equal!My boat was launched in 1993 and the
hard numbers are lost in my memory but I do recall it taking 14
sheets of plywood for the MICRO.
Seaworthiness;the skipper plays about as big a role in this one
as the boat!However,there is some comfort in knowing that your boats
ability to self-right is dependant on a nice big chunk of lead
securely fastened to your boats bottom(like MICRO) as apposed to the
waterballast system used on the MARTHA JANE.Not to cast any evil
thoughts toward the MJ,but there has been,in the past,on this
forum,some very illuminating experiences/discussions regarding the
stability/ballast....issue.
Performance;how well cut are your sails and what kind of a sailor
are you?There is a convention that states a longer boat will be
faster just based on her waterline lenght,hence hull speed
predictions yet I have and continue to out-sail some 20 footers in my
area,much to their chagrin!The main point however should be to have
fun and to do it as safely as possible.Both boats possess the
potential to do both well.I just think the MICRO does it better ;-)
If trailering ISN'T a priority,I cannot possibly see how lead
ballast is a"bad idea".Perhaps I do not understand the question here?
At any rate,you are about to embark on a rather interesting bit
of fun no matter which boat is chosen!For more good stuff about the
MICRO(choose her!choose her!) check out Chuck Merrells site for the
MICRO along with Pippos"world famous"site.Also,go to DUCKWORKS
MAGAZINE site for lots of related stuff about the MICRO and other
wonderful boats.Sorry for not providing you easy to click-on links
but I trust you can figure out how to get to them.
Best of luck with your choice and my apologies to all MARTHA JANE
fans.It really isn't your fault the MICRO is so cute!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,literally counting down the DAYS to haul-out,on the
windy,leaf strewn shores of the St.Lawrence River........
I have never built nor sailed a Martha Jane,thus know little more
then what has already been written about her here and
elsewhere.However,I am but a few chilly weeks short of closing my
MICROs 7th season and can happily rant on about her various virtues
and nurmerous niceties ad nauseum in a most biassed fashion!
It appears that the bulk of your intended sailing will be day
trips with the odd 2 week cruise thrown in for adventure.With this in
mind,the MICRO will fit the bill handsomely!Whether you sail alone or
with a couple of friends,the MICRO will safely and easily take care
of you for the day with space for your picnic lunch!When the 2 week
cruises come up,you will find the amazing volume of her hold more
then adequate for your supplies!
As far as ease of building.....well,a box is a box is a box.One
of them is just a bit longer than the other with slightly different
detailing.Your own level of proficiency with wood working tools,
combined with boat-plan-literacy,will determine for you how"easy" the
job will be.
Building expense is difficult to nail down as prices vary from
region to region(country to country) but the"bigger" boat will cost
more,everything else being equal!My boat was launched in 1993 and the
hard numbers are lost in my memory but I do recall it taking 14
sheets of plywood for the MICRO.
Seaworthiness;the skipper plays about as big a role in this one
as the boat!However,there is some comfort in knowing that your boats
ability to self-right is dependant on a nice big chunk of lead
securely fastened to your boats bottom(like MICRO) as apposed to the
waterballast system used on the MARTHA JANE.Not to cast any evil
thoughts toward the MJ,but there has been,in the past,on this
forum,some very illuminating experiences/discussions regarding the
stability/ballast....issue.
Performance;how well cut are your sails and what kind of a sailor
are you?There is a convention that states a longer boat will be
faster just based on her waterline lenght,hence hull speed
predictions yet I have and continue to out-sail some 20 footers in my
area,much to their chagrin!The main point however should be to have
fun and to do it as safely as possible.Both boats possess the
potential to do both well.I just think the MICRO does it better ;-)
If trailering ISN'T a priority,I cannot possibly see how lead
ballast is a"bad idea".Perhaps I do not understand the question here?
At any rate,you are about to embark on a rather interesting bit
of fun no matter which boat is chosen!For more good stuff about the
MICRO(choose her!choose her!) check out Chuck Merrells site for the
MICRO along with Pippos"world famous"site.Also,go to DUCKWORKS
MAGAZINE site for lots of related stuff about the MICRO and other
wonderful boats.Sorry for not providing you easy to click-on links
but I trust you can figure out how to get to them.
Best of luck with your choice and my apologies to all MARTHA JANE
fans.It really isn't your fault the MICRO is so cute!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,literally counting down the DAYS to haul-out,on the
windy,leaf strewn shores of the St.Lawrence River........
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, staehpj1@h... wrote:
> I am going to be building either a Micro or Martha Jane later this
> year. Currently I am leaning toward the Micro, but the shallower
> draft and extra room of the MJ sound attractive.
>
> The boats primary use will be day sailing and trips up to 2 weeks
on
> the Chesapeake Bay. It would be nice to be able to do some coastal
> cruising as well.
>
> I would appreciate some feedback from some of you more experienced
> builder/sailors. How do the two craft compare on the following
> points:
>
> 1. Ease of building for an inexperienced builder. (I have built
> other simple projects and am handy with tools, but the D4 I am
> currently building is the first boat project).
>
> 2. Building expense. How much plywood? How much epoxy? How much
> Framing? Etc.
>
> 3. How do they compare in seaworthiness?
>
> 4. Performance?
>
> Is it a bad idea to use lead instead of the water ballast if
> trailering weight isn't a priority? The extra storage space would
be
> a nice plus and the boat will live in a slip when not being used.
>
> I read about some changes to the lee boards. Do those changes
appear
> on the plans from Common Sense? The ones directly from Bolger?
>
> I have looked at all of the info I have found on the web, but was
> hoping for a little more info to help decide which plans to buy.
> Maybe I need to buy both and compare, but I hate to waste the money
> buying both plans then only using one.
>
> Pete
I am building a Micro which is nearly finished but there are still some crucial
jobs which need doing before launch... so much to do, so little time. Therefore
I am obviously a fan of the Micro but this assessment is hardly objective, is
it!
I think you forgot the most valuable commodity in your costs question...time.
Whichever boat you do remember it will take you twice as long as you think it
will... Some of the tasks involved in building my Micro seemed so easy as I
planned them out...but then something would go wrong and the whole task seemed
to spiral out of control.
My second point is to try and find someone who will build the boat with you. Not
only do two sets of hands make the task go quicker but it can also help to have
somebody to bounce ideas off and it helps if that person is an enthusiastic
partner. It can be a pretty lonely business building a boat on your own,
especially if something isn't going quite right.
Whichever one you pick you will hate and love.
Regards
Daniel
jobs which need doing before launch... so much to do, so little time. Therefore
I am obviously a fan of the Micro but this assessment is hardly objective, is
it!
I think you forgot the most valuable commodity in your costs question...time.
Whichever boat you do remember it will take you twice as long as you think it
will... Some of the tasks involved in building my Micro seemed so easy as I
planned them out...but then something would go wrong and the whole task seemed
to spiral out of control.
My second point is to try and find someone who will build the boat with you. Not
only do two sets of hands make the task go quicker but it can also help to have
somebody to bounce ideas off and it helps if that person is an enthusiastic
partner. It can be a pretty lonely business building a boat on your own,
especially if something isn't going quite right.
Whichever one you pick you will hate and love.
Regards
Daniel
Pete:
First let me say that I have not built either of these boats. I have built
a hand full of other boats, some Bolger, up to 30 feet in length, and done a
number of cruises on Texas lakes, and the Gulf of Mexico. Here is my $.02
worth.
a smaller boat as a first project, and you have taken care of that.
wheel weights? will you make your own sails? Some of the guys who have
built these boats can give you some hard numbers.
what the stability curves of the new umproved MJ look like, but I seriously
soubt that she compares with her little sister M.
her longer water line length.
You will find most owners are eager to show of their babies. Someone once
said that the hardest decisions have the least consequences. No matter
which boat you choose to build, there will be times when you will wish you
had picked the other one. Study the boats, then flip a coin if necessary,
just don't get stuck at this point. There is too much to gain from building
a boat.....any boat.
Chuck
First let me say that I have not built either of these boats. I have built
a hand full of other boats, some Bolger, up to 30 feet in length, and done a
number of cruises on Texas lakes, and the Gulf of Mexico. Here is my $.02
worth.
> 1. Ease of building for an inexperienced builder. (I have builtI think either of these boats would be more or less equal. I would suggest
> other simple projects and am handy with tools, but the D4 I am
> currently building is the first boat project).
a smaller boat as a first project, and you have taken care of that.
> 2. Building expense. How much plywood? How much epoxy? How muchThis depends totally on you; will you use marine ply? will you scrounge lead
> Framing? Etc.
wheel weights? will you make your own sails? Some of the guys who have
built these boats can give you some hard numbers.
> 3. How do they compare in seaworthiness?No question the Micro is more "stable" due to its ballast. I do not know
what the stability curves of the new umproved MJ look like, but I seriously
soubt that she compares with her little sister M.
> 4. Performance?The Martha Jane will be faster either under power or under sail, because of
her longer water line length.
> Is it a bad idea to use lead instead of the water ballast ifNo question, that lead makes much better ballast than water.
> trailering weight isn't a priority? The extra storage space would be
> a nice plus and the boat will live in a slip when not being used.
> I read about some changes to the lee boards. Do those changes appearThe changes will be shown on the update, be sure and ask for it.
> on the plans from Common Sense? The ones directly from Bolger?
> I have looked at all of the info I have found on the web, but wasTry to find one of each of these boats and talk the owners our of rides.
> hoping for a little more info to help decide which plans to buy.
> Maybe I need to buy both and compare, but I hate to waste the money
> buying both plans then only using one.
You will find most owners are eager to show of their babies. Someone once
said that the hardest decisions have the least consequences. No matter
which boat you choose to build, there will be times when you will wish you
had picked the other one. Study the boats, then flip a coin if necessary,
just don't get stuck at this point. There is too much to gain from building
a boat.....any boat.
Chuck
I am going to be building either a Micro or Martha Jane later this
year. Currently I am leaning toward the Micro, but the shallower
draft and extra room of the MJ sound attractive.
The boats primary use will be day sailing and trips up to 2 weeks on
the Chesapeake Bay. It would be nice to be able to do some coastal
cruising as well.
I would appreciate some feedback from some of you more experienced
builder/sailors. How do the two craft compare on the following
points:
1. Ease of building for an inexperienced builder. (I have built
other simple projects and am handy with tools, but the D4 I am
currently building is the first boat project).
2. Building expense. How much plywood? How much epoxy? How much
Framing? Etc.
3. How do they compare in seaworthiness?
4. Performance?
Is it a bad idea to use lead instead of the water ballast if
trailering weight isn't a priority? The extra storage space would be
a nice plus and the boat will live in a slip when not being used.
I read about some changes to the lee boards. Do those changes appear
on the plans from Common Sense? The ones directly from Bolger?
I have looked at all of the info I have found on the web, but was
hoping for a little more info to help decide which plans to buy.
Maybe I need to buy both and compare, but I hate to waste the money
buying both plans then only using one.
Pete
year. Currently I am leaning toward the Micro, but the shallower
draft and extra room of the MJ sound attractive.
The boats primary use will be day sailing and trips up to 2 weeks on
the Chesapeake Bay. It would be nice to be able to do some coastal
cruising as well.
I would appreciate some feedback from some of you more experienced
builder/sailors. How do the two craft compare on the following
points:
1. Ease of building for an inexperienced builder. (I have built
other simple projects and am handy with tools, but the D4 I am
currently building is the first boat project).
2. Building expense. How much plywood? How much epoxy? How much
Framing? Etc.
3. How do they compare in seaworthiness?
4. Performance?
Is it a bad idea to use lead instead of the water ballast if
trailering weight isn't a priority? The extra storage space would be
a nice plus and the boat will live in a slip when not being used.
I read about some changes to the lee boards. Do those changes appear
on the plans from Common Sense? The ones directly from Bolger?
I have looked at all of the info I have found on the web, but was
hoping for a little more info to help decide which plans to buy.
Maybe I need to buy both and compare, but I hate to waste the money
buying both plans then only using one.
Pete