Re: Luan
Hi Graeme,
Jon
> here the only enforceable standard is the Australian. In asia the standard is open slather. Mostly priced less than the Australian, any asian stuff stamped British Standard may be just that, or may not be worth the stamping ink. Price is a given, how do you tell its worth? In the US, does British Standard have to mean what it says?I actually have no idea, but the plywood is far and away the best I've ever used.
Jon
My Junebug was built out of a high quality Luan several years ago and has seen a lot of duty and travel as a dingy and cartopper. The objective was to build her for a $100 and to weigh 50 lbs. It went over budget and weight due to glassing the botton both inside and out. Still it only cost $150 CDN and weighs about 60 lbs. It has given us immense pleasure as a rowing and paddling boat, is easy to load on the roof of the Happy Adventure or a car. Occassionally it is a motor boat with the Honda 2 h.p. and cruises well at about 8 kilometres per hour at just over half throttle. regards Paul
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 8:33 AM, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> > The only thing keeping me afloat was a layer of 6 OZ Dynel set in epoxy.
>
> Not unlike skin on frame boats, no?
>
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Bill Howard<billh39@...>wrote:When I began building my June Bug, I ordered four sheets of 1/4 inch okume. Cost was (Gulp!) $375 including shipping to middle of nowhere VA.
Total cost of boat, including $zero for my labor, was slightly over $2,500.
I think the total cost for my June Bug was $200. I built her out of B/C pine plywood. She lasted 12 years, until I made the mistake of leaving her upside down on the ground for two years without putting blocks under her to allow for air circulation. Soil moisture did her in. But at $20 per year amortized cost, she was worth every penny, and she was so easy to build, it really doesn't matter that she didn't last longer. She would have lasted longer if I had taken better care of her.
Fred
When I began building my June Bug, I ordered four sheets of 1/4 inch okume. Cost was (Gulp!) $375 including shipping to middle of nowhere VA.
Total cost of boat, including $zero for my labor, was slightly over $2,500. This included sail, anchor, docking lines, car top carrier, paint, wood for oars, varnish for oars, glue, materials for model boats, paying a local furniture maker for band saw, joiner and planer help, etc., etc., etc. To keep weight down, I used fiberglass sparingly, only on chines and butt joints.
So cost of Okume was about 15% of cost of boat.
If I had used Luan, boat would have cost $325 less, but would have come apart before I finished building her.
If I had covered bottom with fiberglass and epoxy, total cost would have gone up, and Okume percentage of cost would have gone down.
On Dec 19, 2009, at 12:58 PM, John and Kathy Trussell wrote:
Periodically I hold forth on quality plywood. Most of the boats we build require 4 sheets of plywood. They require many hours of work and significant expenditure for epoxy and fiberglass to say nothing of brushes, rubber gloves, sandpaper and paint. Under these circumstances, the marginal cost of good plywood is a) not very great and b) a worthwhile investment in a boat which will last more than a season or two.
If you really need to build cheap, I would suggest that you build plywood with chines, held together with Weldwood and annular nails (and foregoing epoxy and fiberglass).
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups. com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups. com ]On Behalf Ofetap28
Sent:Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:58 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups. com
Subject:[bolger] Re: Luan
The last luan I bought was shockingly awful, from Home depot. You could take a piece in your hand and break it apart, like snapping foam core or some sort of air-filled polyester product. I'm sure there's lots of different luan makers out there but I sort of decided, that after my Auray, which I'd built pretty nicely and really liked, started delaminating after 6 or so years that there's no point in scrimping on plywood vs. the hours of labor that go into a boat. Unless it's really just a box, like Tortoise or whatever, which you're just experimenting with. My father built a kind of nice self-designed pram out of cheap luan and I tried to pick it up one day and it had grown into the ground.. mostly just topsoil. most of the bottom had disappeared into earthworm's shit. kind of sad
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for this input David. I've seen the UltraPly at either Home Depot or Menards near me. It looked good, but I wondered if I should try it.
>
> I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks awful even in the store.
>
> RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in his 2nd Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the prototype June Bug.
>
> In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when building instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to 3/4". For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or Ultraply for the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the major bulkheads. I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then poly-varnish over the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would epoxy the interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just paint with acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
>
> One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and consider what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
>
> Don Schultz
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
> >
> > Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several
> > branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills
> > that are much higher quality.
> >
> > I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called "Ultra
> > Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
> >
> > David
>No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.717 / Virus Database: 270.14.114/2575 - Release Date: 12/19/09 03:33:00
Periodically I hold forth on quality plywood. Most of the boats we build require 4 sheets of plywood. They require many hours of work and significant expenditure for epoxy and fiberglass to say nothing of brushes, rubber gloves, sandpaper and paint. Under these circumstances, the marginal cost of good plywood is a) not very great and b) a worthwhile investment in a boat which will last more than a season or two.
If you really need to build cheap, I would suggest that you build plywood with chines, held together with Weldwood and annular nails (and foregoing epoxy and fiberglass).
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
bolger@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Ofetap28
Sent:Saturday, December 19, 2009
9:58 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Re: Luan
The last luan I bought was shockingly awful, from Home
depot. You could take a piece in your hand and break it apart, like snapping
foam core or some sort of air-filled polyester product. I'm sure there's lots
of different luan makers out there but I sort of decided, that after my Auray,
which I'd built pretty nicely and really liked, started delaminating after 6 or
so years that there's no point in scrimping on plywood vs. the hours of labor
that go into a boat. Unless it's really just a box, like Tortoise or whatever,
which you're just experimenting with. My father built a kind of nice
self-designed pram out of cheap luan and I tried to pick it up one day and it
had grown into the ground.. mostly just topsoil. most of the bottom had
disappeared into earthworm's shit. kind of sad
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com,
"daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@ ...> wrote:
>or Menards near me. It looked good, but I wondered if I should try it.
>
> Thanks for this input David. I've seen the UltraPly at either Home Depot
>in the store.
> I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks awful even
>Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the prototype June Bug.
> RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in his 2nd
>instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to 3/4". For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or Ultraply for the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the major bulkheads. I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then poly-varnish over the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would epoxy the interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just paint with acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
> In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when building
>what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
> One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and consider
>"D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
> Don Schultz
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com,
> >"Ultra
> > Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several
> > branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills
> > that are much higher quality.
> >
> > I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called
> > Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
> >
> > David
>
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.717 / Virus Database: 270.14.114/2575 - Release Date: 12/19/09 03:33:00
The last luan I bought was shockingly awful, from Home depot. You could take a piece in your hand and break it apart, like snapping foam core or some sort of air-filled polyester product. I'm sure there's lots of different luan makers out there but I sort of decided, that after my Auray, which I'd built pretty nicely and really liked, started delaminating after 6 or so years that there's no point in scrimping on plywood vs. the hours of labor that go into a boat. Unless it's really just a box, like Tortoise or whatever, which you're just experimenting with. My father built a kind of nice self-designed pram out of cheap luan and I tried to pick it up one day and it had grown into the ground.. mostly just topsoil. most of the bottom had disappeared into earthworm's shit. kind of sad
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for this input David. I've seen the UltraPly at either Home Depot or Menards near me. It looked good, but I wondered if I should try it.
>
> I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks awful even in the store.
>
> RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in his 2nd Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the prototype June Bug.
>
> In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when building instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to 3/4". For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or Ultraply for the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the major bulkheads. I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then poly-varnish over the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would epoxy the interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just paint with acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
>
> One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and consider what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
>
> Don Schultz
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
> >
> > Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several
> > branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills
> > that are much higher quality.
> >
> > I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called "Ultra
> > Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
> >
> > David
>
Jon,
here the only enforceable standard is the Australian. In asia the standard is open slather. Mostly priced less than the Australian, any asian stuff stamped British Standard may be just that, or may not be worth the stamping ink. Price is a given, how do you tell its worth? In the US, does British Standard have to mean what it says?
Graeme
here the only enforceable standard is the Australian. In asia the standard is open slather. Mostly priced less than the Australian, any asian stuff stamped British Standard may be just that, or may not be worth the stamping ink. Price is a given, how do you tell its worth? In the US, does British Standard have to mean what it says?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography" <jon@...> wrote:
snip
> After getting all that experience with lower-priced material, I recently started using BS1088 Hydrotek Meranti - which is Phillipine Mahogany, also known as...Luan. Yes, it's expensive, but not nearly as bad as Okoume. It's not much more than Marine AB fir (both are the same price for 1/4"), and it's fabulous stuff to work with. I ordered enough sheets to get a 15% discount on the material. Yes, there's a minimum shipping threshold that would be prohibitive for a small order as Chris pointed out. But it's not much additional cost to ship 20 sheets versus 4, so the per-sheet cost can be optimized if you plan to build more boats in the future. Pooling with other nearby boatbuilders might be a possibility for some.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com
>
I understand all your thinking..... .. Been building and boating since 49,, I guess i'm getting a bit paranoid in my old age !! doc --- OnFri, 12/18/09, D.G. Cassidy<d.cassidy@...>wrote:
|
The only but joints on the page I referenced are the 1 x 4 boards that are used as butt joints to hold the two pieces of each side together -- I am assuming this is what you are referring to. This is according to the designer's plans.
You don't need anything close to 12" on a butt joint. Always go by what the designer suggests, but 4 - 6 - inches is usually sufficient.
You could also use two layers of 3 - 4 " fiberglass tape and omit the extra wood altogether.
DGC
On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:09 PM, the doctor wrote:
From: D.G. Cassidy <d.cassidy@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Luan
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 1:02 PMFYI: When you use products like UltraPly, one side is marked with the
brand name and must be painted.
You can see photos of UltraPly being used at my AF3 building Web site:
http://www.davidcma guire.com/ AF3/AF3/Photo_ Gallery_1. html
DGC
On Dec 18, 2009, at 9:31 AM, daschultz2000 wrote:
>
> Thanks for this input David. I've seen the UltraPly at either Home
> Depot or Menards near me. It looked good, but I wondered if I
> should try it.
>
> I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks
> awful even in the store.
>
> RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in
> his 2nd Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the
> prototype June Bug.
>
> In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when
> building instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to 3/4".
> For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or Ultraply for
> the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the major bulkheads.
> I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then poly-varnish over
> the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would epoxy the
> interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just paint with
> acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
>
> One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and
> consider what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
>
> Don Schultz
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@. ..> wrote:
>>
>> Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several
>> branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills
>> that are much higher quality.
>>
>> I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called "Ultra
>> Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
>>
>> David
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 8:33 AM, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:
> The only thing keeping me afloat was a layer of 6 OZ Dynel set in epoxy.Not unlike skin on frame boats, no?
I notice the butt joints on the sides have a very narrow backing,,,,,, my thought would be to make that back joiner about 12" wide.??? doc --- OnFri, 12/18/09, D.G. Cassidy<d.cassidy@...>wrote:
|
I did extensive boil testing and dishwasher testing on the UltraPly
product I used and it held up beautifully.
Since every mill's product is different, you should definitely test
whatever product is available to you.
If I ever go sailing in boiling water, I'm all set!
DGC
product I used and it held up beautifully.
Since every mill's product is different, you should definitely test
whatever product is available to you.
If I ever go sailing in boiling water, I'm all set!
DGC
On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:33 AM, dnjost wrote:
> Give it the boil test. Cut a small sheet and boil it in a pan and
> let it cool for several cycles. If it falls apart don't use it.
> Several cycles in the dishwasher apparently has a similar effect but
> I have not tried it.
>
> I have gone to using only marine grade ply having had too many bad
> experiences (at some interesting times) over the years.
>
> My Diablo was scrapped when I noticed that the entire floor from bow
> to stern was delaminated. The only thing keeping me afloat was a
> layer of 6 OZ Dynel set in epoxy. If you are building an
> experiment then use the cheap stuff, a few bucks more gives a little
> more peace of mind imho.
>
> David Jost
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks for this input David. I've seen the UltraPly at either Home
>> Depot or Menards near me. It looked good, but I wondered if I
>> should try it.
>>
>> I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks
>> awful even in the store.
>>
>> RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in
>> his 2nd Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the
>> prototype June Bug.
>>
>> In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when
>> building instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to
>> 3/4". For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or
>> Ultraply for the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the
>> major bulkheads. I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then
>> poly-varnish over the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would
>> epoxy the interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just
>> paint with acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
>>
>> One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and
>> consider what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
>>
>> Don Schultz
>>
>> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several
>>> branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills
>>> that are much higher quality.
>>>
>>> I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called "Ultra
>>> Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
>>>
>>> David
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
FYI: When you use products like UltraPly, one side is marked with the
brand name and must be painted.
You can see photos of UltraPly being used at my AF3 building Web site:
http://www.davidcmaguire.com/AF3/AF3/Photo_Gallery_1.html
DGC
brand name and must be painted.
You can see photos of UltraPly being used at my AF3 building Web site:
http://www.davidcmaguire.com/AF3/AF3/Photo_Gallery_1.html
DGC
On Dec 18, 2009, at 9:31 AM, daschultz2000 wrote:
>
> Thanks for this input David. I've seen the UltraPly at either Home
> Depot or Menards near me. It looked good, but I wondered if I
> should try it.
>
> I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks
> awful even in the store.
>
> RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in
> his 2nd Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the
> prototype June Bug.
>
> In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when
> building instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to 3/4".
> For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or Ultraply for
> the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the major bulkheads.
> I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then poly-varnish over
> the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would epoxy the
> interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just paint with
> acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
>
> One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and
> consider what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
>
> Don Schultz
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
>>
>> Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several
>> branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills
>> that are much higher quality.
>>
>> I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called "Ultra
>> Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
>>
>> David
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Give it the boil test. Cut a small sheet and boil it in a pan and let it cool for several cycles. If it falls apart don't use it. Several cycles in the dishwasher apparently has a similar effect but I have not tried it.
I have gone to using only marine grade ply having had too many bad experiences (at some interesting times) over the years.
My Diablo was scrapped when I noticed that the entire floor from bow to stern was delaminated. The only thing keeping me afloat was a layer of 6 OZ Dynel set in epoxy. If you are building an experiment then use the cheap stuff, a few bucks more gives a little more peace of mind imho.
David Jost
I have gone to using only marine grade ply having had too many bad experiences (at some interesting times) over the years.
My Diablo was scrapped when I noticed that the entire floor from bow to stern was delaminated. The only thing keeping me afloat was a layer of 6 OZ Dynel set in epoxy. If you are building an experiment then use the cheap stuff, a few bucks more gives a little more peace of mind imho.
David Jost
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for this input David. I've seen the UltraPly at either Home Depot or Menards near me. It looked good, but I wondered if I should try it.
>
> I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks awful even in the store.
>
> RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in his 2nd Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the prototype June Bug.
>
> In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when building instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to 3/4". For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or Ultraply for the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the major bulkheads. I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then poly-varnish over the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would epoxy the interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just paint with acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
>
> One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and consider what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
>
> Don Schultz
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
> >
> > Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several
> > branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills
> > that are much higher quality.
> >
> > I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called "Ultra
> > Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
> >
> > David
>
Thanks for this input David. I've seen the UltraPly at either Home Depot or Menards near me. It looked good, but I wondered if I should try it.
I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks awful even in the store.
RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in his 2nd Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the prototype June Bug.
In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when building instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to 3/4". For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or Ultraply for the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the major bulkheads. I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then poly-varnish over the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would epoxy the interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just paint with acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and consider what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
Don Schultz
I agree w' those who won't use Luan today. The stuff just looks awful even in the store.
RE; Yellow pine, it is noted by Payson for being heavy. He said in his 2nd Instant Boats book it added many pounds (50?) to the prototype June Bug.
In his book, Devlin is big on going heavier for bulkheads when building instant boats. He likes taking 1/2" bulkheads up to 3/4". For a 20+ foot power cruiser, I could see using MDO or Ultraply for the sides and bottom, and 3/4" yellow pine for the major bulkheads. I might seal the yellow pine w' epoxy and then poly-varnish over the epoxy for UV protection. If Ultraply I would epoxy the interior. For the interior of the MDO, I would just paint with acrylic latex, no epoxy except the seams, and fillets.
One could look at the cost of MDO vs something like Ultraply and consider what savings could be gained by using less epoxy.
Don Schultz
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
>
> Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several
> branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills
> that are much higher quality.
>
> I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called "Ultra
> Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
>
> David
Be careful when buying Baltic birch plywood -- most of it you'll find will
have been made with _interior glue_ for cabinets!
have been made with _interior glue_ for cabinets!
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 05:05:41 -0800, Fred S wrote:
> There is another option, baltic birch plywood. Although birch is heavier
> and
> not very rot resistant, this no-voids plywood is excellent quality. Just
> don't buy any Chinese made birch. It's terrible. There's also B/C
> southern
> yellow pine plywood and Chilean Arauca, which seems to be better quality.
> MDO is excellent but not available in thinner ply. Most of us don't have
> easy access to tropical boat building ply.
--
John (jkohnen@...)
Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless they meet
two conditions: 1. He is a Greek; 2. He is a Fisherman (Roy
Blount Jr.)
> Ten years or more ago Luan may have been OK. Not now.I think it depends on what kind of product you're buying. Luan underlayment that I've seen is junk. And I sure miss the nice US-made fir ACX of 15+ years ago.
Seven of my boats were built with a product called AC SuperPly from Roseburg. It has a Luan face that's quite good, and it's inexpensive. The 1/4" stuff has a core softwood I couldn't identify. The 3/8" and 1/2" material have a lumberyard grade fir core and C-side. By putting the C-side out and filling and glassing it, I got plenty solid boats that have lasted well for several seasons. I see no problem getting at least 10 years out of these boats. This includes outdoor storage in the Colorado high country with an annual temperature range of over 100 F, hail, snow, dust storms, and trailering over bad roads.
Like Bruce says, these boats are not meant to be heirlooms that outlast me, so I'll take 10 or more years of service for the modest investment.
After getting all that experience with lower-priced material, I recently started using BS1088 Hydrotek Meranti - which is Phillipine Mahogany, also known as...Luan. Yes, it's expensive, but not nearly as bad as Okoume. It's not much more than Marine AB fir (both are the same price for 1/4"), and it's fabulous stuff to work with. I ordered enough sheets to get a 15% discount on the material. Yes, there's a minimum shipping threshold that would be prohibitive for a small order as Chris pointed out. But it's not much additional cost to ship 20 sheets versus 4, so the per-sheet cost can be optimized if you plan to build more boats in the future. Pooling with other nearby boatbuilders might be a possibility for some.
Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com
Even floor installers won't use luan anymore, but there are several branded floor underlayment products now being manufactured by mills that are much higher quality.
I built an AF3 (a Jim Michalak design) from a product called "Ultra Ply" ($21 a sheet) and have been very happy with the results.
David
On Dec 17, 2009, at 8:05 AM, Fred Schumacher wrote:
There is another option, baltic birch plywood. Although birch is heavier and not very rot resistant, this no-voids plywood is excellent quality. Just don't buy any Chinese made birch. It's terrible. There's also B/C southern yellow pine plywood and Chilean Arauca, which seems to be better quality. MDO is excellent but not available in thinner ply. Most of us don't have easy access to tropical boat building ply.
FredOn Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Bill Howard <billh39@...> wrote:Ten years or more ago Luan may have been OK. Not now.
There is another option, baltic birch plywood. Although birch is heavier and not very rot resistant, this no-voids plywood is excellent quality. Just don't buy any Chinese made birch. It's terrible. There's also B/C southern yellow pine plywood and Chilean Arauca, which seems to be better quality. MDO is excellent but not available in thinner ply. Most of us don't have easy access to tropical boat building ply.
Fred
Fred
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Bill Howard<billh39@...>wrote:Ten years or more ago Luan may have been OK. Not now.
Ten years or more ago Luan may have been OK. Not now.
On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Chris Crandall wrote:
>"Michael Breiling"
> I would not recommend using Luann. The Luann boat I made died in a
> year from delamination. It was the worst $126 I saved in my whole
> life.
Although Michael makes a good point about using lauan underlayment for
boats, the choices aren't as easy for some. Where I live, there is
almost no way to economically purchase high quality tropical plywood.
The shipping charges, for everything I've even been able to locate, more
the DOUBLE the price of the plywood.
> The materials you use for the hull are the cheapest things you put
> into the boat. Most smaller stitch and glue or nail and glue sailboat
> designs use 4-12 sheets of plywood and 2-3 gallons of epoxy. The
> epoxy costs $120 to $300 depending whether you need two or three
> gallons and brand you choose. The difference in cost for 8 sheets of
> plywood between $22 Luann ($176) and $85 Okoume ($680) is $504. For
> a two sheet Bolger Nymph the difference is $126.
In short, the price of plywood plus shipping, to Kansas, makes it a poor
choice, because who would want to pay nearly $400 for the plywood to go
into a Nymph? Add on the epoxy, the fasteners (or wire, metal or
plastic), the fiberglass tape, etc., and you better love-love-love the
process, because that boat will cost you more than a small car.
> Even really good Luann will die much faster than Okoume. If you
> really cannot afford Okoume or another high quality rot resistant
> plywood, buy fir. It will check but last, and it will not delaminate
> instantly. Consider the value of your time. Why spend a year making
> a boat that will only last a year or two?
Better not tell that to Chris-Craft, whose decades of high quality
runabouts were made with lauan (marketed as Phillipine mahogany). The
problem with the underlylment plywood isn't the base material. The two
problems are (1) the glue--is it resorcinol or not? Is it thick enough
and without voids? For this, there is the boil test and/or the multiple
dishwasher cycles test, and (2) the uneven plies. The thin-thin-thin
outer plies aren't ideal, and the typical three-ply is not very good as
boatbuilding material.
That said, I've built quite a number of boats using lauan, and they've
stood the test of time. My Bolger Teal is over 10 years old, and in good
shape. The two Six Hour Canoes I built are over 10, too, and I passed
them on a few years ago to someone else, in fine shape. My Michalak
Harmonica shantyboat "Occam's Razor" lasted 10 years before rotting, and
it spent several winters with water pooled inside. And so it wasn't the
material that killed these boats (only one has died), but rather keeping
it outside with water trapped in the hull.
Just remember that the perfect is the enemy of the good, and with
reasonable precautions, lauan can be good.
-Chris
P.S. By fir, I'm sure that Michael means "Douglas Fir" which of course
isn't a fir, and is labeled "DF" on lumber and plywood. While quality of
DF varies plenty (old growth vs. new growth, coastal vs. inland, farmed
vs. wild [here it matters even more than it does in salmon]), but he's
right that it's usually good material. My current boat project is all
DF, using MDO and solid DF lumber. It is among the best of all possible
USA materials, although if I had enough Black Walnut/Black Locust . . .
The greatest loss in my boating experience was when the 'Celia' was pulled out, stripped and burned in 1968...
She was 77' 57 tons, built in Boston in 1911.... I had the opportunity to operate her for about 6 years.
I suppose everything must pass.
doc
She was 77' 57 tons, built in Boston in 1911.... I had the opportunity to operate her for about 6 years.
I suppose everything must pass.
doc
--- On Wed, 12/16/09, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
> From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Luan
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 11:33 AM
> I have always loved every boat I have
> ever owned even those that where
> contrairy and honery. They all have had their vices. I am
> sorry to see
> them go but always feel good that they are going to another
> to be
> enjoyed. I really don't want to see them rot I would rather
> see taken to
> the head of a creek anchored to fill with rainwater and
> sink. I want my
> boats to last not as monuments to me but because as I do
> with people I
> love, I hate to outlive them.
> Doug
>
>
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Although Michael makes a good point about using
> lauan underlayment for
> > > boats, the choices aren't as easy for some.
> >
> > I agree with Chris. There are both advantages and
> disadvantages of
> > using cheap plywood.
> >
> > One contrary view is that all boats don't need to be
> museum pieces
> > that outlive their builder. Especially considering
> that all builders
> > have a beginners 'learning curve', and the first few
> boats built might
> > not really deserve being preserved for the ages.
> Building quick and
> > dirty boats with cheap materials makes sense. It is a
> great way to
> > learn, without stressing about ruining that $100 sheet
> of Okume
> > BS1088. Working with $12 a sheet of lauan encourages
> learning boat
> > building. So what if the boat only lasts a season or
> two? Building
> > another boat is fun anyway.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
> Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and
> snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>bolger-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
Maybe it's the Idea that Davy Jones has claimed them :-) Doug
Douglas Pollard wrote:
Douglas Pollard wrote:
> I have always loved every boat I have ever owned even those that where
> contrairy and honery. They all have had their vices. I am sorry to see
> them go but always feel good that they are going to another to be
> enjoyed. I really don't want to see them rot I would rather see taken to
> the head of a creek anchored to fill with rainwater and sink. I want my
> boats to last not as monuments to me but because as I do with people I
> love, I hate to outlive them.
> Doug
>
>
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
>>> Although Michael makes a good point about using lauan underlayment for
>>> boats, the choices aren't as easy for some.
>>>
>> I agree with Chris. There are both advantages and disadvantages of
>> using cheap plywood.
>>
>> One contrary view is that all boats don't need to be museum pieces
>> that outlive their builder. Especially considering that all builders
>> have a beginners 'learning curve', and the first few boats built might
>> not really deserve being preserved for the ages. Building quick and
>> dirty boats with cheap materials makes sense. It is a great way to
>> learn, without stressing about ruining that $100 sheet of Okume
>> BS1088. Working with $12 a sheet of lauan encourages learning boat
>> building. So what if the boat only lasts a season or two? Building
>> another boat is fun anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
I have always loved every boat I have ever owned even those that where
contrairy and honery. They all have had their vices. I am sorry to see
them go but always feel good that they are going to another to be
enjoyed. I really don't want to see them rot I would rather see taken to
the head of a creek anchored to fill with rainwater and sink. I want my
boats to last not as monuments to me but because as I do with people I
love, I hate to outlive them.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
contrairy and honery. They all have had their vices. I am sorry to see
them go but always feel good that they are going to another to be
enjoyed. I really don't want to see them rot I would rather see taken to
the head of a creek anchored to fill with rainwater and sink. I want my
boats to last not as monuments to me but because as I do with people I
love, I hate to outlive them.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> >
> > Although Michael makes a good point about using lauan underlayment for
> > boats, the choices aren't as easy for some.
>
> I agree with Chris. There are both advantages and disadvantages of
> using cheap plywood.
>
> One contrary view is that all boats don't need to be museum pieces
> that outlive their builder. Especially considering that all builders
> have a beginners 'learning curve', and the first few boats built might
> not really deserve being preserved for the ages. Building quick and
> dirty boats with cheap materials makes sense. It is a great way to
> learn, without stressing about ruining that $100 sheet of Okume
> BS1088. Working with $12 a sheet of lauan encourages learning boat
> building. So what if the boat only lasts a season or two? Building
> another boat is fun anyway.
>
>
>I agree with Chris. There are both advantages and disadvantages of
> Although Michael makes a good point about using lauan underlayment for
> boats, the choices aren't as easy for some.
using cheap plywood.
One contrary view is that all boats don't need to be museum pieces
that outlive their builder. Especially considering that all builders
have a beginners 'learning curve', and the first few boats built might
not really deserve being preserved for the ages. Building quick and
dirty boats with cheap materials makes sense. It is a great way to
learn, without stressing about ruining that $100 sheet of Okume
BS1088. Working with $12 a sheet of lauan encourages learning boat
building. So what if the boat only lasts a season or two? Building
another boat is fun anyway.
>"Michael Breiling"Although Michael makes a good point about using lauan underlayment for
> I would not recommend using Luann. The Luann boat I made died in a
> year from delamination. It was the worst $126 I saved in my whole
> life.
boats, the choices aren't as easy for some. Where I live, there is
almost no way to economically purchase high quality tropical plywood.
The shipping charges, for everything I've even been able to locate, more
the DOUBLE the price of the plywood.
> The materials you use for the hull are the cheapest things you putIn short, the price of plywood plus shipping, to Kansas, makes it a poor
> into the boat. Most smaller stitch and glue or nail and glue sailboat
> designs use 4-12 sheets of plywood and 2-3 gallons of epoxy. The
> epoxy costs $120 to $300 depending whether you need two or three
> gallons and brand you choose. The difference in cost for 8 sheets of
> plywood between $22 Luann ($176) and $85 Okoume ($680) is $504. For
> a two sheet Bolger Nymph the difference is $126.
choice, because who would want to pay nearly $400 for the plywood to go
into a Nymph? Add on the epoxy, the fasteners (or wire, metal or
plastic), the fiberglass tape, etc., and you better love-love-love the
process, because that boat will cost you more than a small car.
> Even really good Luann will die much faster than Okoume. If youBetter not tell that to Chris-Craft, whose decades of high quality
> really cannot afford Okoume or another high quality rot resistant
> plywood, buy fir. It will check but last, and it will not delaminate
> instantly. Consider the value of your time. Why spend a year making
> a boat that will only last a year or two?
runabouts were made with lauan (marketed as Phillipine mahogany). The
problem with the underlylment plywood isn't the base material. The two
problems are (1) the glue--is it resorcinol or not? Is it thick enough
and without voids? For this, there is the boil test and/or the multiple
dishwasher cycles test, and (2) the uneven plies. The thin-thin-thin
outer plies aren't ideal, and the typical three-ply is not very good as
boatbuilding material.
That said, I've built quite a number of boats using lauan, and they've
stood the test of time. My Bolger Teal is over 10 years old, and in good
shape. The two Six Hour Canoes I built are over 10, too, and I passed
them on a few years ago to someone else, in fine shape. My Michalak
Harmonica shantyboat "Occam's Razor" lasted 10 years before rotting, and
it spent several winters with water pooled inside. And so it wasn't the
material that killed these boats (only one has died), but rather keeping
it outside with water trapped in the hull.
Just remember that the perfect is the enemy of the good, and with
reasonable precautions, lauan can be good.
-Chris
P.S. By fir, I'm sure that Michael means "Douglas Fir" which of course
isn't a fir, and is labeled "DF" on lumber and plywood. While quality of
DF varies plenty (old growth vs. new growth, coastal vs. inland, farmed
vs. wild [here it matters even more than it does in salmon]), but he's
right that it's usually good material. My current boat project is all
DF, using MDO and solid DF lumber. It is among the best of all possible
USA materials, although if I had enough Black Walnut/Black Locust . . .
I am building Surf, which I believe is a similar design to June Bug.
(4 sheets of 1/4 inch ply?) I will build her with the 1/4 inch
bottom, fiberglassed on the outside, with maybe a foam mat on the
inside to protect the epoxy from abrasion. I normally overbuild my
boats but want this one to be light enough to it could be dragged
around by one person to make beach launching possible. Although using
3/8 will not add a huge amount of weight, its usually the start of
the "rot" and inevitably other things get beefed up as well and next
thing you know she's 10-15 kilo's heavier. The Surf plans haven't
arrived yet, but after squinting at the study plans on the Instant
Boats site, it appears that there are skids similar to June Bugs,
which should stiffen her sufficiently. If you want to beef up the
bottom the idea put forward of glassing both sides was a good one and
cheaper/easier than laminating with more ply. Would love to see some
photos of your progress if possible!
Regards
Col Mooney
(4 sheets of 1/4 inch ply?) I will build her with the 1/4 inch
bottom, fiberglassed on the outside, with maybe a foam mat on the
inside to protect the epoxy from abrasion. I normally overbuild my
boats but want this one to be light enough to it could be dragged
around by one person to make beach launching possible. Although using
3/8 will not add a huge amount of weight, its usually the start of
the "rot" and inevitably other things get beefed up as well and next
thing you know she's 10-15 kilo's heavier. The Surf plans haven't
arrived yet, but after squinting at the study plans on the Instant
Boats site, it appears that there are skids similar to June Bugs,
which should stiffen her sufficiently. If you want to beef up the
bottom the idea put forward of glassing both sides was a good one and
cheaper/easier than laminating with more ply. Would love to see some
photos of your progress if possible!
Regards
Col Mooney
--- In bolger@y..., "joannabruce4338" <jbn@p...> wrote:
> Am building June Bug. Sides, bulkhead, transom, stem, chine logs
> all in place. Using Luan, which I have had good luck with. Wil
glas
> and epoxy sides and bottom.
>
> Have been wondering if doubling the 1/4 inch Luan on bottom is a
good
> idea, or at least not a bad idea? If I decide to go that way, I
have
> been thinking about using contact cement to join surfaces: Put
first
> layer on, the when epoxy on chines and bottom of bulukheads cures,
> use contact cemsnt to bond the layers. Wlll stagger joints on
layers.
>
>
> Comments
--- In bolger@y..., "joannabruce4338" <jbn@p...> wrote:
with 3 runners of hardwood glued and screwed. The botomm was epoxy
coated , no cloth , inside and out and is virtually indistructable.
It does wobble a bit when running flat on flettish water.
when the wind gets up we let the boat heel so the boat runs easier.
If you needed to stiffen the bottom I'd put 2 extra runners or some
stips of 1/4 luan say 2" wide down the lenght of the hull.
When this JB finally dies I reckon all that will be left will be the
bottom of the hull.
as an aside, there is no fibreglass tape or cloth on thewhole boat,
not even the outside of the butt joints. just good glueing and
screwing. Dont waste your good luan/ epoxy on overkill. Save it for
the topsides,or the next boat
Cheers Paul
> Am building June Bug. Sides, bulkhead, transom, stem, chine logsglas
> all in place. Using Luan, which I have had good luck with. Wil
> and epoxy sides and bottom.good
>
> Have been wondering if doubling the 1/4 inch Luan on bottom is a
> idea, or at least not a bad idea? If I decide to go that way, Ihave
> been thinking about using contact cement to join surfaces: Putfirst
> layer on, the when epoxy on chines and bottom of bulukheads cures,layers.
> use contact cemsnt to bond the layers. Wlll stagger joints on
>Our JB has a standard bottom 1/4 marine ply.
>
> Comments
with 3 runners of hardwood glued and screwed. The botomm was epoxy
coated , no cloth , inside and out and is virtually indistructable.
It does wobble a bit when running flat on flettish water.
when the wind gets up we let the boat heel so the boat runs easier.
If you needed to stiffen the bottom I'd put 2 extra runners or some
stips of 1/4 luan say 2" wide down the lenght of the hull.
When this JB finally dies I reckon all that will be left will be the
bottom of the hull.
as an aside, there is no fibreglass tape or cloth on thewhole boat,
not even the outside of the butt joints. just good glueing and
screwing. Dont waste your good luan/ epoxy on overkill. Save it for
the topsides,or the next boat
Cheers Paul
If weight is not an issue, and all will be glassed, seems like 3/8 fir
would be a good choice monetarily while adding a good deal of
stiffness, if it is type that has roughly equal stiffness in both
directions. Will be a little heavy, tho. As I recall, June Bug is a
bit narrower than Mayfly so may not need as stiff wood for bottom,
particularly with those stringers. I wouldn't use contact cement to
laminate as I'd expect it to creep. While you're doing thicker wood,
why not use MDO, then maybe you don't have to glass the bottom?
would be a good choice monetarily while adding a good deal of
stiffness, if it is type that has roughly equal stiffness in both
directions. Will be a little heavy, tho. As I recall, June Bug is a
bit narrower than Mayfly so may not need as stiff wood for bottom,
particularly with those stringers. I wouldn't use contact cement to
laminate as I'd expect it to creep. While you're doing thicker wood,
why not use MDO, then maybe you don't have to glass the bottom?
--- In bolger@y..., "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
>
> I have used luan building a 12' mayfly . I used luan on the sides
but
> opted for 3/8 d/f for the bottom . I glassed the chines with two
> layers of 8.7 oz. cloth and epoxy inside and out. I'm glad i did.
I'd
> go with 1/2 bottom and 3/8 side all doug fir if I had it to do over.
>
> I'd go with a thicker piece to start with for the bottom don't waste
> time and money laminating sheets of luan.
>
> Todd
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "joannabruce4338" <jbn@p...> wrote:
> > Am building June Bug. Sides, bulkhead, transom, stem, chine logs
> > all in place. Using Luan, which I have had good luck with. Wil
> glas
> > and epoxy sides and bottom.
> >
> > Have been wondering if doubling the 1/4 inch Luan on bottom is a
> good
> > idea, or at least not a bad idea? If I decide to go that way, I
> have
> > been thinking about using contact cement to join surfaces: Put
> first
> > layer on, the when epoxy on chines and bottom of bulukheads cures,
> > use contact cemsnt to bond the layers. Wlll stagger joints on
> layers.
> >
> >
> > Comments
I have used luan building a 12' mayfly . I used luan on the sides but
opted for 3/8 d/f for the bottom . I glassed the chines with two
layers of 8.7 oz. cloth and epoxy inside and out. I'm glad i did. I'd
go with 1/2 bottom and 3/8 side all doug fir if I had it to do over.
I'd go with a thicker piece to start with for the bottom don't waste
time and money laminating sheets of luan.
Todd
opted for 3/8 d/f for the bottom . I glassed the chines with two
layers of 8.7 oz. cloth and epoxy inside and out. I'm glad i did. I'd
go with 1/2 bottom and 3/8 side all doug fir if I had it to do over.
I'd go with a thicker piece to start with for the bottom don't waste
time and money laminating sheets of luan.
Todd
--- In bolger@y..., "joannabruce4338" <jbn@p...> wrote:
> Am building June Bug. Sides, bulkhead, transom, stem, chine logs
> all in place. Using Luan, which I have had good luck with. Wil
glas
> and epoxy sides and bottom.
>
> Have been wondering if doubling the 1/4 inch Luan on bottom is a
good
> idea, or at least not a bad idea? If I decide to go that way, I
have
> been thinking about using contact cement to join surfaces: Put
first
> layer on, the when epoxy on chines and bottom of bulukheads cures,
> use contact cemsnt to bond the layers. Wlll stagger joints on
layers.
>
>
> Comments
I don't think that's quite right. Glass is pretty strong, but it's not
all that stiff. And the total thickness, which is really the way to
get stiffness, is not much greater. But I don't have hard numbers
for the glassed wood. If I'm not mistaken, the double layer of luan
will be a little more than about twice as strong and four times as
stiff in the direction of the thin plies, and a little more than four
times as strong and eight times as stiff in the direction of the
middle plies, as compared to one sheet. You could probably leave off
the stringers on the bottom, if not for their ability to keep the
bottom off the rocks (if the rocks are large, maybe they won't help
anyway). If you put the grain crosswise to the first layer when adding
to the second layer, I don't know what would happen, tho if I sat down
and scratched my head long enough I might be able to figure it out.
I hope it's good luan. There's real variability in that product.
all that stiff. And the total thickness, which is really the way to
get stiffness, is not much greater. But I don't have hard numbers
for the glassed wood. If I'm not mistaken, the double layer of luan
will be a little more than about twice as strong and four times as
stiff in the direction of the thin plies, and a little more than four
times as strong and eight times as stiff in the direction of the
middle plies, as compared to one sheet. You could probably leave off
the stringers on the bottom, if not for their ability to keep the
bottom off the rocks (if the rocks are large, maybe they won't help
anyway). If you put the grain crosswise to the first layer when adding
to the second layer, I don't know what would happen, tho if I sat down
and scratched my head long enough I might be able to figure it out.
I hope it's good luan. There's real variability in that product.
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> Your glass will add more than the additional layer of luan, me
thinks.
>
> Instead, why don't you glass both sides of the bottom (prior to
assembly)?
>
snip
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
in the past and was concerned not only about abrasion (the reason for
fibreglass) but also dent and puncture damage as the area I
frequently sail has a very rocky beach. And using a trailer, rather
than trying to cartop, has minimized the transporting weight concern.
> Your glass will add more than the additional layer of luan, methinks.
>I don't think I am too concerned about weight. Have had a June Bug
in the past and was concerned not only about abrasion (the reason for
fibreglass) but also dent and puncture damage as the area I
frequently sail has a very rocky beach. And using a trailer, rather
than trying to cartop, has minimized the transporting weight concern.
Your glass will add more than the additional layer of luan, me thinks.
Instead, why don't you glass both sides of the bottom (prior to assembly)?
Instead, why don't you glass both sides of the bottom (prior to assembly)?
----- Original Message -----
From: "joannabruce4338" <jbn@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 11:22 AM
Subject: [bolger] Luan
> Am building June Bug. Sides, bulkhead, transom, stem, chine logs
> all in place. Using Luan, which I have had good luck with. Wil glas
> and epoxy sides and bottom.
>
> Have been wondering if doubling the 1/4 inch Luan on bottom is a good
> idea, or at least not a bad idea? If I decide to go that way, I have
> been thinking about using contact cement to join surfaces: Put first
> layer on, the when epoxy on chines and bottom of bulukheads cures,
> use contact cemsnt to bond the layers. Wlll stagger joints on layers.
>
>
> Comments
>
>
>
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>
Am building June Bug. Sides, bulkhead, transom, stem, chine logs
all in place. Using Luan, which I have had good luck with. Wil glas
and epoxy sides and bottom.
Have been wondering if doubling the 1/4 inch Luan on bottom is a good
idea, or at least not a bad idea? If I decide to go that way, I have
been thinking about using contact cement to join surfaces: Put first
layer on, the when epoxy on chines and bottom of bulukheads cures,
use contact cemsnt to bond the layers. Wlll stagger joints on layers.
Comments
all in place. Using Luan, which I have had good luck with. Wil glas
and epoxy sides and bottom.
Have been wondering if doubling the 1/4 inch Luan on bottom is a good
idea, or at least not a bad idea? If I decide to go that way, I have
been thinking about using contact cement to join surfaces: Put first
layer on, the when epoxy on chines and bottom of bulukheads cures,
use contact cemsnt to bond the layers. Wlll stagger joints on layers.
Comments
I build my Gypsy from Home Depot luan at the same 9.99 price. So far
no problems (when properly glued with epoxy) and no oilcanning. Also,
it seemed pretty light especially compaired to pine plywood. I intend
to use it again in this winters project which will be the Single Handed
Schooner. Just got the plans and am trying to convince my current
spouse of the need for another boat. (Rational is that I need to work
on skill in handling multiple sails -- that may be too specific and
plan B is that it's a little bigger boat than Gypsy 19.6 vs 15 feet.)
no problems (when properly glued with epoxy) and no oilcanning. Also,
it seemed pretty light especially compaired to pine plywood. I intend
to use it again in this winters project which will be the Single Handed
Schooner. Just got the plans and am trying to convince my current
spouse of the need for another boat. (Rational is that I need to work
on skill in handling multiple sails -- that may be too specific and
plan B is that it's a little bigger boat than Gypsy 19.6 vs 15 feet.)
I have been very quiet about using it as I felt that others were down
on the product. I designed and built a 12 foot rowing dingy, double
chine several years ago. The bottom was glassed as I used it
throughout florida and the bahamas. In fact beat the H out of her.
She still sits in front of my home on the river and has never seen
cover and is buried under four ft. of snow each winter. This in
northern Mi. The boat is still as sound as when built her. I also
built a 23 ft sea kayak which I use in Canada, ditto as to beating it
up. A little heavy, but seems to make good boats. Don't tell anyone,
but it can be found in my new topaz. Brad
on the product. I designed and built a 12 foot rowing dingy, double
chine several years ago. The bottom was glassed as I used it
throughout florida and the bahamas. In fact beat the H out of her.
She still sits in front of my home on the river and has never seen
cover and is buried under four ft. of snow each winter. This in
northern Mi. The boat is still as sound as when built her. I also
built a 23 ft sea kayak which I use in Canada, ditto as to beating it
up. A little heavy, but seems to make good boats. Don't tell anyone,
but it can be found in my new topaz. Brad