Re: [bolger] Re: Japanese Beach Cruiser
Re the Paceship 17 capsize:
After years of experience I came to realize that the
boat was either (a) poorly designed or (b) not built
to the designer's specifications particularly as to
the placement of the centerboard. When I bought the
boat I thought because I was purchasing from a
reputable manufacturer (Paceship, Mahone Bay, NS -
since defunct) and that the design came from a
reputsble design firm (C & C - still in business) that
I would not need the help of an experienced sailor
friend to take it for sea trials. Alas, such was not
the case. I suspect that Paceship did not built to
specification.
The boat was delivered with a rudder on which the kick
up portion was fabricated from steel plate. As many
are no doubt aware, this can cause lee helm on its
own. After the first year of sailing I realized that
there might be a problem so built new rudder of
plywood and covered it with glass cloth and resin. The
new rudder seemed to overcome the handling sensitivity
I felt with the metal rudder but still it did not
solve the problem. In my third sailing season, the
boat went over in a heavy gust despite having a three
foot reef tied in, letting go the jib and pushing the
helm to leeward.
At the time I thought the incident was a fluke. A
second capsize occurred in the fifth season at which
time I figured the mast should be raked aft to
compensate. This did help but still did not resolve
the problem. By the sixth season I believe the
inevitable restructuring was the only cure. I tore the
deck off the hull, cut out the centerboard and
replaced it with a dagger board. Unfortunately, its a
mite too far forward, so now I have lots of weather
helm - better than lee helm anyway. Now I figure I'll
build a mast two feet taller and shorten the boom, fit
a new mainsail with a shorter foot and longer luff to
reduce the weather helm. As well I'll have the sail
flattened slightly and bring the draft forward a bit
which should also help.
Some time over the last decade I've come into contact
with two other owners of Paceship 17s. Both experience
handling problems. One gent said he only sailed on
days when the wind was not too strong and the other
said that he was "very careful" when he was sailing in
heavier winds.
Thanks to all for your comments re changing the bilge
at the stern. As I said, I had some reservations about
making such a change and I feel comfortable with the
consensus that that aspect should not be tampered
with.
--- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
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After years of experience I came to realize that the
boat was either (a) poorly designed or (b) not built
to the designer's specifications particularly as to
the placement of the centerboard. When I bought the
boat I thought because I was purchasing from a
reputable manufacturer (Paceship, Mahone Bay, NS -
since defunct) and that the design came from a
reputsble design firm (C & C - still in business) that
I would not need the help of an experienced sailor
friend to take it for sea trials. Alas, such was not
the case. I suspect that Paceship did not built to
specification.
The boat was delivered with a rudder on which the kick
up portion was fabricated from steel plate. As many
are no doubt aware, this can cause lee helm on its
own. After the first year of sailing I realized that
there might be a problem so built new rudder of
plywood and covered it with glass cloth and resin. The
new rudder seemed to overcome the handling sensitivity
I felt with the metal rudder but still it did not
solve the problem. In my third sailing season, the
boat went over in a heavy gust despite having a three
foot reef tied in, letting go the jib and pushing the
helm to leeward.
At the time I thought the incident was a fluke. A
second capsize occurred in the fifth season at which
time I figured the mast should be raked aft to
compensate. This did help but still did not resolve
the problem. By the sixth season I believe the
inevitable restructuring was the only cure. I tore the
deck off the hull, cut out the centerboard and
replaced it with a dagger board. Unfortunately, its a
mite too far forward, so now I have lots of weather
helm - better than lee helm anyway. Now I figure I'll
build a mast two feet taller and shorten the boom, fit
a new mainsail with a shorter foot and longer luff to
reduce the weather helm. As well I'll have the sail
flattened slightly and bring the draft forward a bit
which should also help.
Some time over the last decade I've come into contact
with two other owners of Paceship 17s. Both experience
handling problems. One gent said he only sailed on
days when the wind was not too strong and the other
said that he was "very careful" when he was sailing in
heavier winds.
Thanks to all for your comments re changing the bilge
at the stern. As I said, I had some reservations about
making such a change and I feel comfortable with the
consensus that that aspect should not be tampered
with.
--- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
> > ...the bilge seems__________________________________
> > a mite slack at the stern so I am tempted to push
> the
> > second chine down and out a bit to give a bit more
> > bearing as she heeled.
>
> Bolger has written about this in several places
> including the
> Spartina chapter of BWAOM. There is a trade-off in
> stern design. A
> wide stern with a lot of bearing gives more power to
> carry sail and
> a higher top speed, but requires that the live
> ballast keeps the
> boat from heeling. If the boat heels and the bow
> goes down, the
> sailing and handling suffer greatly. I would trust
> PCB. Besides, you
> are not likely to change it enough to make a really
> big difference.
>
> Down around where I am, I would be surprised if you
> capsized a
> Paceship 17 once in a lifetime, though you probably
> could have
> managed it yesterday since we had 20 kt winds and 3
> 1/2 ft seas (a
> few 5' 'rogue waves' :)). It does suggest that you
> should have a rig
> that is easy to reef and certainly the sprit does
> not shine in that
> department. Your change to a lug could be an
> improvement. Chances
> are that PCB used the sprit because the spars can be
> a little
> shorter.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
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> Anybody care to estimate the weight of theWell, the plans are marked for 355Kg Displacement. Say 780 lbs.
> completed boat?
Subtracting 400 lbs for two crew and gear gives 380 lbs.
Subjectively, that seems just a bit high. I would have guess the bare
hull at less than 300.
Bolger does allow quite a bit for gear and crew in a boat like this.
This illustrates some of his thinkig about the light quarters. This
boat is going to be two heavy to get up and plane, so it makes sense
to make it easy to handle since the loss of speed is minimal.
Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Richard Johnson
<rishar_johnson2001@y...> wrote:
example - Any potential challenges if one wants to have a motor on it?
Sure be great to see some photos of one and compare to say an OLDSHOE.
Cheers, Nels
<rishar_johnson2001@y...> wrote:
> One of this design has been built!I would certainly try to track down the owner if possible. For
example - Any potential challenges if one wants to have a motor on it?
Sure be great to see some photos of one and compare to say an OLDSHOE.
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Jason, glutin for punishment
> I would be very reluctant to make changes toHeheh. ;)
> Japanese Beach Cruiser, unless I was willing to
> accept that the changes would be likely for the
> worse! Second guessing Phil Bolger is usually
> a bad bet.
Jason, glutin for punishment
I would be very reluctant to make changes to
Japanese Beach Cruiser, unless I was willing to
accept that the changes would be likely for the
worse! Second guessing Phil Bolger is usually
a bad bet.
Bolger wrote: "This craft would make a good ship's
boat with lifeboat capabilities."
Neither the chapter in Boats With an Open Mind,
nor the writeup in Small Boat Journal #68 illustrate
the 'thatched' shelter but I would be curious what he
had in mind of this.
The use of a vang to the peak of the sprit is new to me.
Anybody care to estimate the weight of the
completed boat?
Japanese Beach Cruiser, unless I was willing to
accept that the changes would be likely for the
worse! Second guessing Phil Bolger is usually
a bad bet.
Bolger wrote: "This craft would make a good ship's
boat with lifeboat capabilities."
Neither the chapter in Boats With an Open Mind,
nor the writeup in Small Boat Journal #68 illustrate
the 'thatched' shelter but I would be curious what he
had in mind of this.
The use of a vang to the peak of the sprit is new to me.
Anybody care to estimate the weight of the
completed boat?
> ...the bilge seemsBolger has written about this in several places including the
> a mite slack at the stern so I am tempted to push the
> second chine down and out a bit to give a bit more
> bearing as she heeled.
Spartina chapter of BWAOM. There is a trade-off in stern design. A
wide stern with a lot of bearing gives more power to carry sail and
a higher top speed, but requires that the live ballast keeps the
boat from heeling. If the boat heels and the bow goes down, the
sailing and handling suffer greatly. I would trust PCB. Besides, you
are not likely to change it enough to make a really big difference.
Down around where I am, I would be surprised if you capsized a
Paceship 17 once in a lifetime, though you probably could have
managed it yesterday since we had 20 kt winds and 3 1/2 ft seas (a
few 5' 'rogue waves' :)). It does suggest that you should have a rig
that is easy to reef and certainly the sprit does not shine in that
department. Your change to a lug could be an improvement. Chances
are that PCB used the sprit because the spars can be a little
shorter.
Peter
One of this design has been built! I saw it at Grand
Barrachois in New Brunswick. Unfortunately, I did not
get the owner's name, nor photos of the boat. I have
been toying with the idea of building this little
vessel to explore the thin waters around the coast of
Nova Scotia (if this dream reaches fruition, photos
will be forthcoming). Personally, I would not be
concerned at all about tangling with the buoys used on
lobster pots. In the event of entanglement, which for
the most part I believe could easily be avoided,
simply change tack, lift the leeboad and disengage.
According to Bolger's description of the boat, he
designed it so that it would be stiffer than the
average sailboat of this size. He mentioned that it
would not be necessary to hike out over the rail to
sail her. I would guess that the statement is made
with the proviso that an appropriate amount of sail is
shown relative to wind force.
While the design appeals to me, I would find it hard
to resist one or two modifications. First I would rig
the main with a lug sail rather than a sprit. The
second change I'm not so sure of . . . the bilge seems
a mite slack at the stern so I am tempted to push the
second chine down and out a bit to give a bit more
bearing as she heeled. My reservation about this
change is that the more robust bilge at the stern
might cause the rudder to roll up and out of the water
somewhat, thereby reducing its power to control the
boat while heeled.
I've had several years experience sailing a Paceship
17 day sailer which has a typical modern sloop rig
with main and jib. In heavy winds, it does not lend
itself well to single handing. I've had two capsizes
to atest to that difficulty. To my eye, the Japanese
Beach Cruiser is ideal. The small mizzen will tend to
make the boat weather vane into the wind in a gust,
assuming one hands the main sheet in such conditions.
Barring unforseen circumstances, I am hoping next
summer will see me begin construction of my own
Japanese Beach Cruiser.
--- robt_l_hazard <robt_l_hazard@...> wrote:
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Barrachois in New Brunswick. Unfortunately, I did not
get the owner's name, nor photos of the boat. I have
been toying with the idea of building this little
vessel to explore the thin waters around the coast of
Nova Scotia (if this dream reaches fruition, photos
will be forthcoming). Personally, I would not be
concerned at all about tangling with the buoys used on
lobster pots. In the event of entanglement, which for
the most part I believe could easily be avoided,
simply change tack, lift the leeboad and disengage.
According to Bolger's description of the boat, he
designed it so that it would be stiffer than the
average sailboat of this size. He mentioned that it
would not be necessary to hike out over the rail to
sail her. I would guess that the statement is made
with the proviso that an appropriate amount of sail is
shown relative to wind force.
While the design appeals to me, I would find it hard
to resist one or two modifications. First I would rig
the main with a lug sail rather than a sprit. The
second change I'm not so sure of . . . the bilge seems
a mite slack at the stern so I am tempted to push the
second chine down and out a bit to give a bit more
bearing as she heeled. My reservation about this
change is that the more robust bilge at the stern
might cause the rudder to roll up and out of the water
somewhat, thereby reducing its power to control the
boat while heeled.
I've had several years experience sailing a Paceship
17 day sailer which has a typical modern sloop rig
with main and jib. In heavy winds, it does not lend
itself well to single handing. I've had two capsizes
to atest to that difficulty. To my eye, the Japanese
Beach Cruiser is ideal. The small mizzen will tend to
make the boat weather vane into the wind in a gust,
assuming one hands the main sheet in such conditions.
Barring unforseen circumstances, I am hoping next
summer will see me begin construction of my own
Japanese Beach Cruiser.
--- robt_l_hazard <robt_l_hazard@...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman__________________________________________________
> <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > > I am posting to ask whether anyone here has
> built the Japanese
> Beach
> > > Cruiser
> > > Anyone ever built her?
> >
> > About a dozen times in my mind's eye.
> >
> > What a great boat! Please build one and
> > take lots of photos to share!
>
> I daydream of spending a week in this boat nosing
> around the Deer
> Isle - Isle au Haut region of the Maine coast. But I
> wonder if she
> might be just a bit _too_ small, and possibly a bit
> tender under
> sail. I also am curious about how her leeboards
> would interact with
> the ubiquitous lobster buoys there.
>
> So I thought I might try to find someone who has
> built and sailed one
> before I invest in a set of plans.
>
>
>
>
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Isle - Isle au Haut region of the Maine coast. But I wonder if she
might be just a bit _too_ small, and possibly a bit tender under
sail. I also am curious about how her leeboards would interact with
the ubiquitous lobster buoys there.
So I thought I might try to find someone who has built and sailed one
before I invest in a set of plans.
> > I am posting to ask whether anyone here has built the JapaneseBeach
> > CruiserI daydream of spending a week in this boat nosing around the Deer
> > Anyone ever built her?
>
> About a dozen times in my mind's eye.
>
> What a great boat! Please build one and
> take lots of photos to share!
Isle - Isle au Haut region of the Maine coast. But I wonder if she
might be just a bit _too_ small, and possibly a bit tender under
sail. I also am curious about how her leeboards would interact with
the ubiquitous lobster buoys there.
So I thought I might try to find someone who has built and sailed one
before I invest in a set of plans.
> I am posting to ask whether anyone here has built the Japanese BeachAbout a dozen times in my mind's eye.
> Cruiser
> Anyone ever built her?
What a great boat! Please build one and
take lots of photos to share!
I am posting to ask whether anyone here has built the Japanese Beach
Cruiser from Boats With an Open Mind. In a lot of ways it seems an
ideal solo rowing/sailing cruiser, seaworthy, roomy, trailerable, and
rather pretty, too.
Anyone ever built her?
Cruiser from Boats With an Open Mind. In a lot of ways it seems an
ideal solo rowing/sailing cruiser, seaworthy, roomy, trailerable, and
rather pretty, too.
Anyone ever built her?
Dan, I wrote Bolger a couple of years ago about the Nord Koster. He
and Susanne A took a sail in it and found it to be a disappointing
boat. He did not know if this was because the rudder was too short or
because of some other possible mods made by the builder. Anyway, he
did not seem to enthralled with the performance of the design and did
not push it -- in fact he recommended a couple of other designs he
thought more suitable. I agree with you about her looks. NK is a
great looking boat.
Dennis
and Susanne A took a sail in it and found it to be a disappointing
boat. He did not know if this was because the rudder was too short or
because of some other possible mods made by the builder. Anyway, he
did not seem to enthralled with the performance of the design and did
not push it -- in fact he recommended a couple of other designs he
thought more suitable. I agree with you about her looks. NK is a
great looking boat.
Dennis
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Dan Burrill <dan@b...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I like your thinking on the smaller boat. Chebacco is a _huge_
first project for almost
> > anyone. And made more difficult in a narrow space. The JBC would
be a lot of fun to build
> > and very able.
>
> I admit a Chebacco was probably pushing the limits of what I'd be
> capable of building. If I had a couple more feet of building room
I'd
> probably give it a go anyway, but since I haven't the question
doesn't
> really arise.
>
> I'm loathe to go for too small a design, as I've only ever sailed
cabin
> yachts and half-decked keelboats, little sailing dinghies scare me.
>
> > And have you seen this?
> >
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/mikesboat/index.htm
>
> I've had at least a brief look at most of the designs I can find
online,
> that would certainly do, but it's not quite what I'm looking for.
I'd
> almost settled on JBC, when doing some speculative googling to see
if
> there was any more information on them online, I found this page:
>
>http://www.boatbldr.com/boats/koster.html
>
> Anyone know any more about this design? I've spotted that there was
an
> MAIB article in July 1996. If it were possible to work out a usable
> engine mounting (for a 2.3HP Honda 4-stroke weighing 25lbs), then
from
> what I've seen, this would be the boat I'd want to build.
>
> I like the balanced lugsail yawl rig, the salient keel, and rudder
with
> an end plate. She can hold the required number of people and would
> appear to have adequate sleeping arrangements for two with a boom
tent.
>
> Unfortunately, I really can't see a way to mount an outboard
anywhere it
> can be easily reached without making major structural alterations.
It's
> a precondition of my other half going sailing with me on anything
bigger
> than the Norfolk Broads, so there's no way 'round that,
unfortunately.
>
> I'm still thinking though, I'm at the stage where every time I
think
> I've found the right design, I spot something wrong with it. Still,
> better to do it now than after I've started building the thing.
>
> Dan
>I admit a Chebacco was probably pushing the limits of what I'd be
> I like your thinking on the smaller boat. Chebacco is a _huge_ first project for almost
> anyone. And made more difficult in a narrow space. The JBC would be a lot of fun to build
> and very able.
capable of building. If I had a couple more feet of building room I'd
probably give it a go anyway, but since I haven't the question doesn't
really arise.
I'm loathe to go for too small a design, as I've only ever sailed cabin
yachts and half-decked keelboats, little sailing dinghies scare me.
> And have you seen this?I've had at least a brief look at most of the designs I can find online,
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/mikesboat/index.htm
that would certainly do, but it's not quite what I'm looking for. I'd
almost settled on JBC, when doing some speculative googling to see if
there was any more information on them online, I found this page:
http://www.boatbldr.com/boats/koster.html
Anyone know any more about this design? I've spotted that there was an
MAIB article in July 1996. If it were possible to work out a usable
engine mounting (for a 2.3HP Honda 4-stroke weighing 25lbs), then from
what I've seen, this would be the boat I'd want to build.
I like the balanced lugsail yawl rig, the salient keel, and rudder with
an end plate. She can hold the required number of people and would
appear to have adequate sleeping arrangements for two with a boom tent.
Unfortunately, I really can't see a way to mount an outboard anywhere it
can be easily reached without making major structural alterations. It's
a precondition of my other half going sailing with me on anything bigger
than the Norfolk Broads, so there's no way 'round that, unfortunately.
I'm still thinking though, I'm at the stage where every time I think
I've found the right design, I spot something wrong with it. Still,
better to do it now than after I've started building the thing.
Dan
Dan,
I like your thinking on the smaller boat. Chebacco is a _huge_ first project for almost
anyone. And made more difficult in a narrow space. The JBC would be a lot of fun to build
and very able.
And have you seen this?
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/mikesboat/index.htm
BW
Mark
Dan Burrill wrote:
I like your thinking on the smaller boat. Chebacco is a _huge_ first project for almost
anyone. And made more difficult in a narrow space. The JBC would be a lot of fun to build
and very able.
And have you seen this?
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/mikesboat/index.htm
BW
Mark
Dan Burrill wrote:
> I'd been set on building a Chebacco 20 for a while now, and will soon
> have just about enough room. (When I say 'just about', I've been
> considering a way of making the strongback so I can slide it from side
> to side to work on different sides of the boat, so it's tight). However,
> this is going to be the first time I've built a boat, and I'm conscious
> of not biting off more than I can chew. Realising that cost and building
> time increase roughly in proportion to the cube of length, whilst the
> amount a boat gets used tends to be larger the smaller the boat, I've
> been looking at a few other options, including a few other designers,
> but I'm now almost settled on the Japanese Beach Cruiser, especially
> since I remembered the one I'd seen for sale, which had been used on
> similar waters to the ones I'm planning on sailing.
Matthew: I'm glad you asked, as I've been much intrigued by the
design myself. I don't know that I'd ever build her without a
first-hand report from someone else, but if I did, I'd give some
thought to replacing the boomless sprit-sail with something that
has a more conventional reefing system and performs well on all points
of sail. (I've no first-hand experience with the rig, mind you, but
what I've read is not encouraging.) I'd also inquire about possible
improvements to the leeboards. I seem to recall from Bolger's recent
article on shoal-draft boats in Wooden Boat that he's learned alot
about them over the years, and that the boards on recent designs are
better than those on older designs.
Other than that, she looks like a fun, roomy, dry little boat with a
lot of style, and I'd love to hear from anyone who's built or sailed
her.
Stephen Paskey
Washington, DC, USA
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Matthew, Agnès & Fletcher Peillet-Long"
<matthew.long@l...> wrote:
design myself. I don't know that I'd ever build her without a
first-hand report from someone else, but if I did, I'd give some
thought to replacing the boomless sprit-sail with something that
has a more conventional reefing system and performs well on all points
of sail. (I've no first-hand experience with the rig, mind you, but
what I've read is not encouraging.) I'd also inquire about possible
improvements to the leeboards. I seem to recall from Bolger's recent
article on shoal-draft boats in Wooden Boat that he's learned alot
about them over the years, and that the boards on recent designs are
better than those on older designs.
Other than that, she looks like a fun, roomy, dry little boat with a
lot of style, and I'd love to hear from anyone who's built or sailed
her.
Stephen Paskey
Washington, DC, USA
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Matthew, Agnès & Fletcher Peillet-Long"
<matthew.long@l...> wrote:
> Following up on the dinghy-cruising pram thread....WITH
>
> I know that there was a thread on this topic back in June that got
> very little response, but I'll give it another try.
>
> Is there anyone out there with first-hand experience (or second-hand
> knowledge) of Bolger's Japanese Beach Cruiser design? [See BOATS
> AN OPEN MIND] Does anyone even know if one has been built? Any
> comments from those ruminating on the design regarding its pros and
> cons?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Matthew Long
> Saint-Priest, France
Following up on the dinghy-cruising pram thread....
I know that there was a thread on this topic back in June that got
very little response, but I'll give it another try.
Is there anyone out there with first-hand experience (or second-hand
knowledge) of Bolger's Japanese Beach Cruiser design? [See BOATS WITH
AN OPEN MIND] Does anyone even know if one has been built? Any
comments from those ruminating on the design regarding its pros and
cons?
Thanks in advance,
Matthew Long
Saint-Priest, France
I know that there was a thread on this topic back in June that got
very little response, but I'll give it another try.
Is there anyone out there with first-hand experience (or second-hand
knowledge) of Bolger's Japanese Beach Cruiser design? [See BOATS WITH
AN OPEN MIND] Does anyone even know if one has been built? Any
comments from those ruminating on the design regarding its pros and
cons?
Thanks in advance,
Matthew Long
Saint-Priest, France