Re: [bolger] Re: Southern Pine Plywood?
David,
Great web pages, well done.
After seeing your progress On your Summer Breeze, and the fine attention
to detail you've shown in your work, My wife, Pat, and I have agreed to
commission you to build the Coolwater for us.
She suggested that we pay 100% over the estimated price as given on
the plans. We do however want the materials used as per the plans. It
has been so long since I had the joy of scraping, pulling and pounding,
oakum, I look forward to the first haul-out.
All kidding aside, for anyone that hasn't checked out David's site,
your really missing a wonderful trip down memory land with his old boat
plans, as well as one of the best, "blow by blow" building sites I have
seen.
Happy Holidays to one and all,
Stan & Patricia, Snow Goose
PS: If several of us on the list order the Coolwater, maybe we can get a
break in the price. ;-)
Great web pages, well done.
After seeing your progress On your Summer Breeze, and the fine attention
to detail you've shown in your work, My wife, Pat, and I have agreed to
commission you to build the Coolwater for us.
She suggested that we pay 100% over the estimated price as given on
the plans. We do however want the materials used as per the plans. It
has been so long since I had the joy of scraping, pulling and pounding,
oakum, I look forward to the first haul-out.
All kidding aside, for anyone that hasn't checked out David's site,
your really missing a wonderful trip down memory land with his old boat
plans, as well as one of the best, "blow by blow" building sites I have
seen.
Happy Holidays to one and all,
Stan & Patricia, Snow Goose
PS: If several of us on the list order the Coolwater, maybe we can get a
break in the price. ;-)
I've found PL Premium construction adhesive to work well on Pressure
treated pine.
Here's a page with an informal test I did with PL and PT. (about half
way down)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/summerbreeze2.htm
And here's a PDF doc on one part polyurethane adhesives:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/polyurethane.pdf
David Beede
jboatguy@...wrote:
SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
Feed someone.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Save a little rain forest.
http://rainforest.care2.com/
Simplicity Boats
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
Here's my latest boat, complete with build notes:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/summerbreeze.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
http://unicornstrings.com
treated pine.
Here's a page with an informal test I did with PL and PT. (about half
way down)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/summerbreeze2.htm
And here's a PDF doc on one part polyurethane adhesives:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/polyurethane.pdf
David Beede
jboatguy@...wrote:
> Pressure treated wood is great as far as it goes, but my--
> understanding is that the sawdust from it is toxic, and that it's
> compatability with modern adhesives is questionable. You don't need
> adhesives to build a boat hull, but it makes it a lot easier, and a
> lot lighter.
>
> John
>
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, "edward haile" <ewhaile@h...> wrote:
> > I think Chuck is right, and it is mighty good stuff. Bugeyes, log
> > canoes, and skipjacks use it, and some are a hundred years old and
> > still working. What's more (I am surprised there is so little
> mention
> > of this) you can get it pressure treated so it's rot proof. I am no
> > boat builder, so I ask Does this mean you can skip West system? If
> > so, it would mean the hull would be heavier underwater (saturated)
> &
> > lighter above the waterline because no glass & epoxy burden. Sounds
> > like an ideal weight distribution. What's the story?
> >
> > ED HAILE
> >
> > --- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> > > David:
> > >
> > > I seem to remember that this was what Joshua Slocum used to
> replace
> > the hull
> > > planking of Spray - Southern Yellow Pine, not plywood, that is.
> > >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > >
> > > > FBBB --
> > > >
> > > > From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that
> > Southern
> > > > Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability being
> > weight.
> > > >
> > > > This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a
> > large
> > > > sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
> > > >
> > > > YIBB,
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
> > > > 134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
> > > > New York, NY 10001
> > > > (212) 243-1636
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
Feed someone.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Save a little rain forest.
http://rainforest.care2.com/
Simplicity Boats
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
Here's my latest boat, complete with build notes:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/summerbreeze.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
http://unicornstrings.com
Jeffery:
I think AC Pine is about the same. D Fir can be found, but it is higher
yet.
Chuck
I think AC Pine is about the same. D Fir can be found, but it is higher
yet.
Chuck
> Chuck
> Thankyou for making me feel better. half inch AC is running about $22
> & 3/4" is $27. how does that compair with your costs ( they do not
> carry BC at my local homedepot except in 2x4 and 4x4 mini sheets)
> thankyou
> Jeffery
Chuck
Thankyou for making me feel better. half inch AC is running about $22
& 3/4" is $27. how does that compair with your costs ( they do not
carry BC at my local homedepot except in 2x4 and 4x4 mini sheets)
thankyou
Jeffery
Thankyou for making me feel better. half inch AC is running about $22
& 3/4" is $27. how does that compair with your costs ( they do not
carry BC at my local homedepot except in 2x4 and 4x4 mini sheets)
thankyou
Jeffery
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> > wish home depo sent some of the pine west
>
> Jeffery: I wish they would send more of the Douglas Fir east. You
are way
> better off with what you've got. It's lighter, stronger, and more
rot
> resistant.
>
> C
My 2 cents . . .
I've used BC pine ply on a Michalak Piccup and for replacing the cabin
on my 30-footer. I agree with most of the earlier comments. Around
here, it's much easier to find than AC fir (AC pine is available), and
usually much better quality and cheaper to boot. It's heavier than
fir, but usually few to no knots. I've developed the habit in Lowes
and Home Depot of going to the ply stacks and looking at the edge of
the sheets to see how many voids there are. Sometimes a shipment comes
in of near marine ply quality (the five sheets for the Piccup had one
void, total).
If you have a curvy boat, like the Piccup, it will be noticeably
harder to get the pine ply to take the bend, but it can be done. I've
had no problem gluing or glassing pine ply.
I've had a couple scraps lying around the yard (plugging gaps in the
fence so the dachshund doesn't escape) for a couple years. It looks
grungy, but there's been no delamination and no rot.
Gary Blankenship
Tallahassee, FL
I've used BC pine ply on a Michalak Piccup and for replacing the cabin
on my 30-footer. I agree with most of the earlier comments. Around
here, it's much easier to find than AC fir (AC pine is available), and
usually much better quality and cheaper to boot. It's heavier than
fir, but usually few to no knots. I've developed the habit in Lowes
and Home Depot of going to the ply stacks and looking at the edge of
the sheets to see how many voids there are. Sometimes a shipment comes
in of near marine ply quality (the five sheets for the Piccup had one
void, total).
If you have a curvy boat, like the Piccup, it will be noticeably
harder to get the pine ply to take the bend, but it can be done. I've
had no problem gluing or glassing pine ply.
I've had a couple scraps lying around the yard (plugging gaps in the
fence so the dachshund doesn't escape) for a couple years. It looks
grungy, but there's been no delamination and no rot.
Gary Blankenship
Tallahassee, FL
> wish home depo sent some of the pine westJeffery: I wish they would send more of the Douglas Fir east. You are way
better off with what you've got. It's lighter, stronger, and more rot
resistant.
Chuck
Hi Cadbury
In the wester us most of the ply is fer and in the east they make
it from southern yellow pine. wish home depo sent some of the pine
west. the interior plys are sysposed to be the same grade as the
lower ( is C in B C ext ply) that is why marine ply whick is to have
no voids is rated A-A A-B or B-B what Kind of boat are you building
and where will you use it?
Thankyou
Jeffery
In the wester us most of the ply is fer and in the east they make
it from southern yellow pine. wish home depo sent some of the pine
west. the interior plys are sysposed to be the same grade as the
lower ( is C in B C ext ply) that is why marine ply whick is to have
no voids is rated A-A A-B or B-B what Kind of boat are you building
and where will you use it?
Thankyou
Jeffery
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, cadbury@s... wrote:
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> > FBBB --
> >
> > From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that
> Southern
> > Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability being
> weight.
> >
> > This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a
large
> > sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
> >
> > YIBB,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
> > 134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
> > New York, NY 10001
> > (212) 243-1636
>
>
>
> Greetings:
>
> I am currently buildng a Michalak AF4 from "B-C Pine Exterior":
> the panels say nothing about "Southern" or "yellow" or "longleaf."
> The hull is almost ready for paint. I have observed the following
> characteristics of the panels:
>
> 1) I was able to find panels with no knots or "football"
patches
> on the good side, with a few knots and no patches on the
bad
> side.
>
> 2) Although several sources say not to, I have had to counter
> sink the brass (not bronze) screws I have been using in
order
> to get them flush or below flush (I do not intend to discuss
> the merits of brass screws in my fresh-water-use boat.)
>
> 3) Although the surface veneers are very hard (see #2 above)
the
> inner plys often are MUCH softer, often much darker colored,
> and are probably another species of wood.
>
> 4) Some of my panels exhibit what I can only charachterise as
> a "flaking" of wood fibers from the surface. This can
occur
> on either side of the panel, and although the flaking does
> not appear to go very deep, it will definetly not make for
> flaw-free paint job. Usually the flaking does not involve
> the whole panel. I am only fiberglassing the chines, so I
> can't say what effect this flaking would have on fiberglass
> 5) Have found very few voids during my sawing.
>
> 6) This stuff is VERY heavy.
>
> Hope this is of some
The pine that boatbuilders of old used is gone, so you can't realy
sing it's praises on that score. That pine was old growth stuff that
has long since been completely harvested. Some people are still
harvesting it from river bottoms (literally true!) where the odd log
being rafted downstream years ago got left behind and sank, or
salvaged from old barns, but the stuff you see now is not the stuff
you would have seen then, and if it is, it's going to cost way more
than you want to pay.
Pressure treated wood is great as far as it goes, but my
understanding is that the sawdust from it is toxic, and that it's
compatability with modern adhesives is questionable. You don't need
adhesives to build a boat hull, but it makes it a lot easier, and a
lot lighter.
John
sing it's praises on that score. That pine was old growth stuff that
has long since been completely harvested. Some people are still
harvesting it from river bottoms (literally true!) where the odd log
being rafted downstream years ago got left behind and sank, or
salvaged from old barns, but the stuff you see now is not the stuff
you would have seen then, and if it is, it's going to cost way more
than you want to pay.
Pressure treated wood is great as far as it goes, but my
understanding is that the sawdust from it is toxic, and that it's
compatability with modern adhesives is questionable. You don't need
adhesives to build a boat hull, but it makes it a lot easier, and a
lot lighter.
John
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "edward haile" <ewhaile@h...> wrote:
> I think Chuck is right, and it is mighty good stuff. Bugeyes, log
> canoes, and skipjacks use it, and some are a hundred years old and
> still working. What's more (I am surprised there is so little
mention
> of this) you can get it pressure treated so it's rot proof. I am no
> boat builder, so I ask Does this mean you can skip West system? If
> so, it would mean the hull would be heavier underwater (saturated)
&
> lighter above the waterline because no glass & epoxy burden. Sounds
> like an ideal weight distribution. What's the story?
>
> ED HAILE
>
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> > David:
> >
> > I seem to remember that this was what Joshua Slocum used to
replace
> the hull
> > planking of Spray - Southern Yellow Pine, not plywood, that is.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > > FBBB --
> > >
> > > From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that
> Southern
> > > Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability being
> weight.
> > >
> > > This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a
> large
> > > sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
> > >
> > > YIBB,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
> > > 134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
> > > New York, NY 10001
> > > (212) 243-1636
- Inbolger@egroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
I am just at the preliminary stages. With careful selection I have not
noticed voids to be a problem or dutchmen on the surface. I would guess I
sort through about 15-20 sheets for each one I take. The brand is
Wyerhauser. Seems to work reasonably easily, although as I said before, I am
in the early stages.
I have noticed something similar to the "flaking" descirbed earlier. I think
this may happen when the cuts that make the surface of the plywood are close
to parallel to the growth layers of the wood, leaving shallow "sheets" of ply
parallel to the surface.
Although heavy, It is inexpensive at $10-12 a sheet.
Regards, Warren
> FBBB --Southern
>
> From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that
> Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability beingweight.
>I am also using b-c exterior pine to build a plank-on-frame Bolger Oldshoe.
> This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a large
> sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
>
> YIBB,
I am just at the preliminary stages. With careful selection I have not
noticed voids to be a problem or dutchmen on the surface. I would guess I
sort through about 15-20 sheets for each one I take. The brand is
Wyerhauser. Seems to work reasonably easily, although as I said before, I am
in the early stages.
I have noticed something similar to the "flaking" descirbed earlier. I think
this may happen when the cuts that make the surface of the plywood are close
to parallel to the growth layers of the wood, leaving shallow "sheets" of ply
parallel to the surface.
Although heavy, It is inexpensive at $10-12 a sheet.
Regards, Warren
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
I am currently buildng a Michalak AF4 from "B-C Pine Exterior":
the panels say nothing about "Southern" or "yellow" or "longleaf."
The hull is almost ready for paint. I have observed the following
characteristics of the panels:
1) I was able to find panels with no knots or "football" patches
on the good side, with a few knots and no patches on the bad
side.
2) Although several sources say not to, I have had to counter
sink the brass (not bronze) screws I have been using in order
to get them flush or below flush (I do not intend to discuss
the merits of brass screws in my fresh-water-use boat.)
3) Although the surface veneers are very hard (see #2 above) the
inner plys often are MUCH softer, often much darker colored,
and are probably another species of wood.
4) Some of my panels exhibit what I can only charachterise as
a "flaking" of wood fibers from the surface. This can occur
on either side of the panel, and although the flaking does
not appear to go very deep, it will definetly not make for
flaw-free paint job. Usually the flaking does not involve
the whole panel. I am only fiberglassing the chines, so I
can't say what effect this flaking would have on fiberglass
5) Have found very few voids during my sawing.
6) This stuff is VERY heavy.
Hope this is of some assistance.
> FBBB --Southern
>
> From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that
> Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability beingweight.
>Greetings:
> This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a large
> sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
>
> CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
> 134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
> New York, NY 10001
> (212) 243-1636
I am currently buildng a Michalak AF4 from "B-C Pine Exterior":
the panels say nothing about "Southern" or "yellow" or "longleaf."
The hull is almost ready for paint. I have observed the following
characteristics of the panels:
1) I was able to find panels with no knots or "football" patches
on the good side, with a few knots and no patches on the bad
side.
2) Although several sources say not to, I have had to counter
sink the brass (not bronze) screws I have been using in order
to get them flush or below flush (I do not intend to discuss
the merits of brass screws in my fresh-water-use boat.)
3) Although the surface veneers are very hard (see #2 above) the
inner plys often are MUCH softer, often much darker colored,
and are probably another species of wood.
4) Some of my panels exhibit what I can only charachterise as
a "flaking" of wood fibers from the surface. This can occur
on either side of the panel, and although the flaking does
not appear to go very deep, it will definetly not make for
flaw-free paint job. Usually the flaking does not involve
the whole panel. I am only fiberglassing the chines, so I
can't say what effect this flaking would have on fiberglass
5) Have found very few voids during my sawing.
6) This stuff is VERY heavy.
Hope this is of some assistance.
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, edward haile wrote:
quality of the woods for boatbuilding varies--jack pine, loblolly pine,
slash pine, sugar pine, and so on make decent, although not great
boatbuilding woods.
On the other hand, longleaf pine has been described as the "Cadillac" of
boatbuilding woods.
They are nice woods to work with, in many cases. But they are not all the
same. I can recommend a look at the Wood Handbook for more detailed
information.
> I think Chuck is right, and it is mighty good stuff. Bugeyes, logSouthern yellow pine is a marketing phrase, it is not a kind of wood. The
> canoes, and skipjacks use it, and some are a hundred years old and
> still working. What's more (I am surprised there is so little mention
> of this) you can get it pressure treated so it's rot proof. I am no
> boat builder, so I ask Does this mean you can skip West system? If so,
> it would mean the hull would be heavier underwater (saturated) &
> lighter above the waterline because no glass & epoxy burden. Sounds
> like an ideal weight distribution. What's the story?
quality of the woods for boatbuilding varies--jack pine, loblolly pine,
slash pine, sugar pine, and so on make decent, although not great
boatbuilding woods.
On the other hand, longleaf pine has been described as the "Cadillac" of
boatbuilding woods.
They are nice woods to work with, in many cases. But they are not all the
same. I can recommend a look at the Wood Handbook for more detailed
information.
I think Chuck is right, and it is mighty good stuff. Bugeyes, log
canoes, and skipjacks use it, and some are a hundred years old and
still working. What's more (I am surprised there is so little mention
of this) you can get it pressure treated so it's rot proof. I am no
boat builder, so I ask Does this mean you can skip West system? If
so, it would mean the hull would be heavier underwater (saturated) &
lighter above the waterline because no glass & epoxy burden. Sounds
like an ideal weight distribution. What's the story?
ED HAILE
canoes, and skipjacks use it, and some are a hundred years old and
still working. What's more (I am surprised there is so little mention
of this) you can get it pressure treated so it's rot proof. I am no
boat builder, so I ask Does this mean you can skip West system? If
so, it would mean the hull would be heavier underwater (saturated) &
lighter above the waterline because no glass & epoxy burden. Sounds
like an ideal weight distribution. What's the story?
ED HAILE
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> David:
>
> I seem to remember that this was what Joshua Slocum used to replace
the hull
> planking of Spray - Southern Yellow Pine, not plywood, that is.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> > FBBB --
> >
> > From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that
Southern
> > Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability being
weight.
> >
> > This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a
large
> > sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
> >
> > YIBB,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
> > 134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
> > New York, NY 10001
> > (212) 243-1636
David:
I seem to remember that this was what Joshua Slocum used to replace the hull
planking of Spray - Southern Yellow Pine, not plywood, that is.
Chuck
I seem to remember that this was what Joshua Slocum used to replace the hull
planking of Spray - Southern Yellow Pine, not plywood, that is.
Chuck
> FBBB --
>
> From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that Southern
> Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability being weight.
>
> This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a large
> sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
>
> CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
> 134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
> New York, NY 10001
> (212) 243-1636
FBBB --
From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that Southern
Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability being weight.
This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a large
sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
YIBB,
David
CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 243-1636
From my reading of Payson and Parker, my impression is that Southern
Pine is good cheap boat-building ply; its only liability being weight.
This would seem to make it ideal for planking the bottom of a large
sharpie. Is there something I'm overlooking?
YIBB,
David
CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 243-1636