Re: light schooner

The plans are available viahttp://www.instantboats.com/or directly
from Mr. Bolger. His contact info is posted in numerous places on
this site. Instant boats (Paysons's website) just sells the plans
and offers some basic support in building to the plans. If you want
to make some major changes than you are best off contacting Bolger.
He will charge you, but his work and insight are worth the fee. He
may already have a stock plan that meets the changes you want, he has
close to a thousand designs drawn up. He only contacts via snail
mail and fax.




--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, mike car <mike78612003@y...> wrote:
> is anyone building the light schooner, and is mr. bolger available
to hire for design changes?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is anyone building the light schooner, and is mr. bolger available to hire for design changes?


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good to hear from the Flying Tadpole, Clyde

Tim Fatchen wrote:

> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> <snip>
> > an average Summer's day would do just fine. I hope to have a topsail
> > for the foremast by then, so even in 8 knot, we should move along
> > smartly.
>
> I am breaking the following Bolger Rule, I know:
>
> > >- no flogging dead horses
>
> but I would be derelict in my duty to let silly things go by without
> comment. Bluntly:
>
> The scooner is already overcanvassed. Use the staysail if additional
> area is desired.
> Adding additional sail up high is a recipe for disaster in all but
> millpond conditions, as well as mucking up the balance.
> Block Is SOund may have millpond conditions in summer, most of the
> rest of the world doesn't.
> The designer himself is pretty unimpressed, from your account.
> Risk-taking with the scooner is most sanely done where succour is
> close to hand, not on an unaccompanied open-water (offshore?)
> expedition. We do not risk-take at all in unaccompanied voyages,
> recognising the limits of the boat.
> Scooner owners are advised to rig the the boat, and especially sheets,
> as on the plans so that everything can easily be thrown off from
> either cockpit, without having to move into another cockpit and
> without the potential for snarls with other rigging.
>
> Tim & Flying Tadpole
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
Tim --

I'm not sure what "duty" you think it is you're performing, but if it
will give you any peace of mind, I gladly relinquish you from any
obligation (real or perceived) to worrying about my health and safety.

If I end up dead as a result of misadventure, either in a Bolger
boat, or any other foolishness my restless mind conjures up be
assured you are under no obligation to weep, wail, or shake your head
and say "I told him so."

For anyone else who cares, we gave the topsail a try Sunday and it
was a gas. More than that, it looks great!

YIBB,

David



>but I would be derelict in my duty to let silly things go by without
>comment. Bluntly:
>
>The scooner is already overcanvassed. Use the staysail if additional
>area is desired.
>Adding additional sail up high is a recipe for disaster in all but
>millpond conditions, as well as mucking up the balance.
>Block Is SOund may have millpond conditions in summer, most of the
>rest of the world doesn't.
>The designer himself is pretty unimpressed, from your account.
>Risk-taking with the scooner is most sanely done where succour is
>close to hand, not on an unaccompanied open-water (offshore?)
>expedition. We do not risk-take at all in unaccompanied voyages,
>recognising the limits of the boat.
>Scooner owners are advised to rig the the boat, and especially sheets,
>as on the plans so that everything can easily be thrown off from
>either cockpit, without having to move into another cockpit and
>without the potential for snarls with other rigging.
>
>Tim & Flying Tadpole
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
>- no flogging dead horses
>- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>- stay on topic and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts


CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 243-1636
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
<snip>
> an average Summer's day would do just fine. I hope to have a topsail
> for the foremast by then, so even in 8 knot, we should move along
> smartly.

I am breaking the following Bolger Rule, I know:

> >- no flogging dead horses

but I would be derelict in my duty to let silly things go by without
comment. Bluntly:

The scooner is already overcanvassed. Use the staysail if additional
area is desired.
Adding additional sail up high is a recipe for disaster in all but
millpond conditions, as well as mucking up the balance.
Block Is SOund may have millpond conditions in summer, most of the
rest of the world doesn't.
The designer himself is pretty unimpressed, from your account.
Risk-taking with the scooner is most sanely done where succour is
close to hand, not on an unaccompanied open-water (offshore?)
expedition. We do not risk-take at all in unaccompanied voyages,
recognising the limits of the boat.
Scooner owners are advised to rig the the boat, and especially sheets,
as on the plans so that everything can easily be thrown off from
either cockpit, without having to move into another cockpit and
without the potential for snarls with other rigging.

Tim & Flying Tadpole
> Block Island lies about 12-15 miles East-north-east of Montauk
point
> (the eastern most tip of Long Island.)

See:http://www.blockislandinfo.com/

Other jumping off points for Block Is. are Watch Hill, Rhode Island
(for boats coming from Long Island Sound and Connecticut) and Point
Judith for boats comming from Rhode Island. Each of these passages is
just a little longer.

Peter
Jamie and other geographically challenged folks --

Block Island lies about 12-15 miles East-north-east of Montauk point
(the eastern most tip of Long Island.)

Typical Summer pattern is for light and variable winds in the
morning, becoming Southwesterly 12-20 in the afternoon.

On an outgoing tide, a strong current runs more or less from Montauk
point to Block Island, the main body of the current passing the
island to the South and reverses on the incoming tide.

With a strong incoming tide and afternoon breezes, wind over tide
chop can reach 4 feet and are very short period. Not ideal conditions
for beating back home in a sharpie.

YIBB,

David

>Can you describe the trip a bit more for us geographically challenged folks?
>Like how far, is it open water, what oddball things do you have to watch for
>and so forth? I've heard of the place, but only have a very general idea of
>where and what it is.

CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 243-1636
PCB's advice was predicated that on the erroneous idea that I was
going to be sailing alone. If I was going to do it alone, I'd fill
the lil'winnie with floatation enough to allow some hope of self
rescue and set off -- trolling a bass plug all the way!

Obviously picking weather is paramount. With full tide at about 9 AM,
an average Summer's day would do just fine. I hope to have a topsail
for the foremast by then, so even in 8 knot, we should move along
smartly.

Two of my friends paddle to Block on surfboards a couple of Summer's
ago. Even with the outgoing tide, it took them 4.5 hours. I hope we
do a little better, but even if we don't, we'll have snacks.

YIBB,

David


>PCB's advice about going under foresail seems incomplete. Obviously,
>if you set off downwind in an 8 knot breeze, you are going to want
>more sail. I would guess that the kernal of truth is that the LS can
>handle a lot of wind broad reaching under just the foresail. You can
>hope there is land in that direction.
>
>Peter
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
>- no flogging dead horses
>- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>- stay on topic and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts


CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 243-1636
Can you describe the trip a bit more for us geographically challenged folks?
Like how far, is it open water, what oddball things do you have to watch for
and so forth? I've heard of the place, but only have a very general idea of
where and what it is.

Jamie Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 10:14 AM
To:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: light schooner


> I intend to sail the LSME to Block Island next summer...

I think that a settled weather forecast is the most important thing.
And you have to have a plan for unexpected bad weather.

Once upon a time, my wife and I took the ferry from Point Judith to
B.I. As we went through the Harbor of Refuge, we passed a daysailer
of about 14 feet. When we got to Block Island and pedaled our way
around to the Salt Pond entrance, there was the daysailer on her way
in.

I have also heard of beach catamarans going to Block from Watch Hill.

PCB's advice about going under foresail seems incomplete. Obviously,
if you set off downwind in an 8 knot breeze, you are going to want
more sail. I would guess that the kernal of truth is that the LS can
handle a lot of wind broad reaching under just the foresail. You can
hope there is land in that direction.

Peter



Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
- no flogging dead horses
- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
- stay on topic and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> I intend to sail the LSME to Block Island next summer...

I think that a settled weather forecast is the most important thing.
And you have to have a plan for unexpected bad weather.

Once upon a time, my wife and I took the ferry from Point Judith to
B.I. As we went through the Harbor of Refuge, we passed a daysailer
of about 14 feet. When we got to Block Island and pedaled our way
around to the Salt Pond entrance, there was the daysailer on her way
in.

I have also heard of beach catamarans going to Block from Watch Hill.

PCB's advice about going under foresail seems incomplete. Obviously,
if you set off downwind in an 8 knot breeze, you are going to want
more sail. I would guess that the kernal of truth is that the LS can
handle a lot of wind broad reaching under just the foresail. You can
hope there is land in that direction.

Peter
>--- Inbolger@egroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
>
>> Agreed about the sheeting. As far as 15 knots, where I sail if the
>> wind is steady at 15 there's going to be a 20 knot puff here and
>> there. We still call that a 15 knot day.
>
>Yes but that's normal...our forecasting assumes gusts to 40% above the
>average wind. Just let go for that...
>
>>
>> I just throw the jib sheet around the jib downhaul, that way I don't
>> have lines cluttering up the forward cockpit.
>
>Don't understand this.

What I meant is I throw a loop of the jib sheet around the jib
downhaul cleat. Self-tending when beating, easy to walk forward and
trim when off the wind and less rope running around the boat.

>>
>> I had an exchange with PCB during which he misunderstood that I
>> wanted to cruise coastally in the LS single-handed. He cautioned
>> against it, but said if I did it, I should do it under foresail
>> alone.
>
>Interesting. I think I might have Words...
>was this before or after the Jochems schooner test sails, since the
>Jochems boat might be a bit more forgiving?

I intend to sail the LSME to Block Island next summer and queried PCB
about two ideas: Twin weighted daggerboards and a pie-eyed idea for
self-bailing.

He didn't think much of either idea. He also thought I wanted to do
it alone (don't know where I got the idea.) He thought this was a
very bad idea, but if I insisted, he recommended going under foresail
alone.

What I ended up doing was making the deck wider, mostly to
accommodate my posterior, but it also helps keep the water out when I
put her on her ear.

YIBB,

David
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:

> Agreed about the sheeting. As far as 15 knots, where I sail if the
> wind is steady at 15 there's going to be a 20 knot puff here and
> there. We still call that a 15 knot day.

Yes but that's normal...our forecasting assumes gusts to 40% above the
average wind. Just let go for that...

>
> I just throw the jib sheet around the jib downhaul, that way I don't
> have lines cluttering up the forward cockpit.

Don't understand this. With one open hook, foresheet can be led clear
along side deck to outermost mid-deck cleat, so can jib sheet on the
opp. side (doesn't need a hook to line it up). Jib halyard, tackrope,
fore throat and forepeak halyards all cleat alongside the foremast...
all your sheets should be led to where =either= cockpit can quickly
free them, without having to change cockpits...

>
> I had an exchange with PCB during which he misunderstood that I
> wanted to cruise coastally in the LS single-handed. He cautioned
> against it, but said if I did it, I should do it under foresail
> alone.

Interesting. I think I might have Words...
was this before or after the Jochems schooner test sails, since the
Jochems boat might be a bit more forgiving?

Tim & Flying Tadpole
>> 15 knots is enough to put the boat on her ear with a crew of two, in
>
>20 knots yes but you shouldn't have this problem at 15 knots, unless
>you're OVERSHEETING which is also my disease. The LS sails need to be
>further out than would normally seem reasonable for best performance.

Agreed about the sheeting. As far as 15 knots, where I sail if the
wind is steady at 15 there's going to be a 20 knot puff here and
there. We still call that a 15 knot day.

>> fore sheet in my hand. She tracks well enough that if I need to
>> adjust the jib, I can just run forward and fix it, then run back and
>> start sailing again.
>
>Where is your jib sheet led to??

I just throw the jib sheet around the jib downhaul, that way I don't
have lines cluttering up the forward cockpit.

>> Bolger recommends foresail alone as a single handed rig,
>
>Where? I've missed this.

I had an exchange with PCB during which he misunderstood that I
wanted to cruise coastally in the LS single-handed. He cautioned
against it, but said if I did it, I should do it under foresail alone.

YIBB,

David

CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 243-1636
A brief but passing personal appearance; two sets of comments:

> The daggerboard is way too big and heavy as it is. I'm glad I didn't
> go ahead and weight it. I sail in shoal water and have to fiddle
with
> it a lot. I wish it was lighter.

Flying tadpole has two holes near her leading edge for a fid. This
holds the board in two positions, as a small protruding fin, and half
down. =All= my waters are shoal...

>
> 15 knots is enough to put the boat on her ear with a crew of two, in

20 knots yes but you shouldn't have this problem at 15 knots, unless
you're OVERSHEETING which is also my disease. The LS sails need to be
further out than would normally seem reasonable for best performance.

> When I singlehand, I cleat of the jib and sail with both the main
and
> fore sheet in my hand. She tracks well enough that if I need to
> adjust the jib, I can just run forward and fix it, then run back and
> start sailing again.

Where is your jib sheet led to?? should be the mid-deck, in which case
a cam cleat would be a simple and useful investment (and for the other
two sheets). But while I happily s/h the AS29, I still regard the LS
as a bit lethal for singlehanding other than in "delivery mode" of
reefed main only: see pages off
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/tipsndx.htmall of which has the
designer's formal blessing.

You're spot-on with avoiding raceways btw, besides, they develop
spiders.

> Bolger recommends foresail alone as a single handed rig,

Where? I've missed this.


> It's hard to find crew in the Winter and the two of us were really
> over powered, even on a 12-15 knot day.

This shouldn't be at all. Two of you should be happily sitting back
and enjoying on 12-15 knots. Check the oversheeting. Are you setting
the booms too high?

>However, a fivehunnerd pound
> plate sounds like a lot to drag around. I think I'd try more smaller
> pieces.

Inside ballast, use water in pipes so when you're swamped it doesn't
sink you.
> > I bet a sail window in the main would be pretty important for
> >single handing,..true?

Not a bad idea for a crewed one either...

> > Could a single hander sail this boat with reasonable security
under
> >a reefed main and full jib, (no foresail) in a 20 mph wind?

My opinion is "no".

>>How
>> would
> >her speed be in this scenario? ]

Too fast.

>>Can you compare her speed and
> >handling under a reefed main and full foresail,(no jib)..as opposed
> >to a reefed main, full jib, and no foresail?

Speed should be the same! (Unfair reply...one reefs or throws reefs
out to maintain boat speed as wind goes up or down). Handling doesn't
change.

> > To those of you who are about to write, suggesting that I
> > consider
> >the "single handed schooner" design, respectably,..I have only deaf
> >ears for you, even though it might be the smart thing for me to do.
> >The light schooner is just too outrageous!

It probably is the smart thing to do, but...you're unlikely to lack
for crew. The problem is more beating people off, or knees giving out
as age takes its toll. Don't let your lit cigarette butt fall into the
Seagull engine when it's leaking diluted oil all over the engine well
though.

Tim & Flying Tadpole

Light Schooner Website (still not updated due to life in general)
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner
First of all, I've only had my scooner in the water a couple of
months, so take all of the following with a grain of salt.

Second of all, you're right about the singlehanded vs the LS. No
contest, build the scooner!

The daggerboard is way too big and heavy as it is. I'm glad I didn't
go ahead and weight it. I sail in shoal water and have to fiddle with
it a lot. I wish it was lighter.

15 knots is enough to put the boat on her ear with a crew of two, in
fact we did just that last Sunday. My second wasn't quick enough
casting off the foresheet and before I knew it I was leaning way over
the port rail watching as the daggerboard began to clear the water.
Only extra wide deck kept us from shipping plenty'o'water. The LS is
way over-canvassed; that's why she looks so good!

When I singlehand, I cleat of the jib and sail with both the main and
fore sheet in my hand. She tracks well enough that if I need to
adjust the jib, I can just run forward and fix it, then run back and
start sailing again. Any time the wind is too strong for that, it's
too strong for me to single hand with all the canvas up.

I wouldn't do all that fooling around you propose with the raceways.
When there's too much wind to hold the sheets in your hands, get some
help. In 15 knots, she's plenty of boat for 3-5 people.

Bolger recommends foresail alone as a single handed rig, and I've
been meaning to find out how much breeze I can handle rigged that way.

I also want to try some inside ballast to see if her manners improve.
It's hard to find crew in the Winter and the two of us were really
over powered, even on a 12-15 knot day. However, a fivehunnerd pound
plate sounds like a lot to drag around. I think I'd try more smaller
pieces.

She's very sensitive to balance of the sails. Get it right, and you
move right along, even to weather. Get it wrong and she's a dog;
especially to weather. Wing and wing before the wind is especially
fun!

Do not let any of this advice slow you down. Build the scooner! You
won't regret it!

YIBB,

David





>Hello,
> I'm thinking about building the light schooner, and I have a couple
>of questions to those who have experience with the boat.
> I understand that the boat is not a single hander in high (or
>medium?..) winds.
> But I plan to sail on the upper Mississippi river where winds are
>usually under 20mph, and commonly around 15mph. Could I, an average
>sized man, keep her on her feet while flying the main, foresail, and
>jib in a 15mph breeze? How about if I had about 500 lbs of steel
>plate under the floor boards, along with a little ballast in the
>daggerboard under the same conditions?
> For single-handing this boat, I'm thinking about building raceways
>under the floor boards to accomodate the lines to the jib and
>foresail. Might an arrangement using elastic cord, like surgical
>tuding, combined with rope help with managability in gusts? How
>about the feasability of a couple of converging raceways, (think "Y")
>which could accomodate secondary ropes which are bit to the tubing,
>to be used to adjust the amount of tension according to conditions?
> How about some kind of large plywood cam arrangement under the
>floor boards, secured by a hinge and springs or elastic cord,
>designed to give rope displacement which increases exponentially with
>tension?
> I bet a sail window in the main would be pretty important for
>single handing,..true?
> Could a single hander sail this boat with reasonable security under
>a reefed main and full jib, (no foresail) in a 20 mph wind? How would
>her speed be in this scenario? Can you compare her speed and
>handling under a reefed main and full foresail,(no jib)..as opposed
>to a reefed main, full jib, and no foresail?
> To those of you who are about to write, suggesting that I consider
>the "single handed schooner" design, respectably,..I have only deaf
>ears for you, even though it might be the smart thing for me to do.
>The light schooner is just too outrageous! And as further evidence of
>my own irrationality, it will have an ash tray to accomodate its
>chain smoking owner,..YES!!!
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
>Sincerely,
>Your green bean jelly bean
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
>- no flogging dead horses
>- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>- stay on topic and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts


CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 W.26th St. 12th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 243-1636
Hello,
I'm thinking about building the light schooner, and I have a couple
of questions to those who have experience with the boat.
I understand that the boat is not a single hander in high (or
medium?..) winds.
But I plan to sail on the upper Mississippi river where winds are
usually under 20mph, and commonly around 15mph. Could I, an average
sized man, keep her on her feet while flying the main, foresail, and
jib in a 15mph breeze? How about if I had about 500 lbs of steel
plate under the floor boards, along with a little ballast in the
daggerboard under the same conditions?
For single-handing this boat, I'm thinking about building raceways
under the floor boards to accomodate the lines to the jib and
foresail. Might an arrangement using elastic cord, like surgical
tuding, combined with rope help with managability in gusts? How
about the feasability of a couple of converging raceways, (think "Y")
which could accomodate secondary ropes which are bit to the tubing,
to be used to adjust the amount of tension according to conditions?
How about some kind of large plywood cam arrangement under the
floor boards, secured by a hinge and springs or elastic cord,
designed to give rope displacement which increases exponentially with
tension?
I bet a sail window in the main would be pretty important for
single handing,..true?
Could a single hander sail this boat with reasonable security under
a reefed main and full jib, (no foresail) in a 20 mph wind? How would
her speed be in this scenario? Can you compare her speed and
handling under a reefed main and full foresail,(no jib)..as opposed
to a reefed main, full jib, and no foresail?
To those of you who are about to write, suggesting that I consider
the "single handed schooner" design, respectably,..I have only deaf
ears for you, even though it might be the smart thing for me to do.
The light schooner is just too outrageous! And as further evidence of
my own irrationality, it will have an ash tray to accomodate its
chain smoking owner,..YES!!!
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Sincerely,
Your green bean jelly bean