Re: [bolger] flotation foam
Thanks Steve,
I knew I had something fouled up, mine looked like peanut shells on a
pumpkin! Thank Heavens it has been too cold to glue, Now I can re-size
them before mess my boat up. They were too short and didn't look good.
They will not only provide extra flotation, but will also make it easier
for me to get into the boat from a high dock by giving me another step.
I'll too old and fat to make the jump like I once did. ;-)
Thanks again, Stan & Snow Goose, feeling sorry that we didn't go
south for the winter.
I knew I had something fouled up, mine looked like peanut shells on a
pumpkin! Thank Heavens it has been too cold to glue, Now I can re-size
them before mess my boat up. They were too short and didn't look good.
They will not only provide extra flotation, but will also make it easier
for me to get into the boat from a high dock by giving me another step.
I'll too old and fat to make the jump like I once did. ;-)
Thanks again, Stan & Snow Goose, feeling sorry that we didn't go
south for the winter.
In a message dated 1/1/2001 1:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
smuller@...writes:
<< Steve, what size are the sponsons on the new MJ? >>
Stan - I don't have the plans in front of me - but at the stern they are
about 12 inches wide and perhaps 15" deep and the taper to zero width as they
move forward. When they reach the bridgedeck they are flush with the rest of
the hull - they're about 8' long. Again I don't have the plans or notes in
front of me - but I seem to recall that Mr. B. said they provide about 200
lbs floatation each. Steve
smuller@...writes:
<< Steve, what size are the sponsons on the new MJ? >>
Stan - I don't have the plans in front of me - but at the stern they are
about 12 inches wide and perhaps 15" deep and the taper to zero width as they
move forward. When they reach the bridgedeck they are flush with the rest of
the hull - they're about 8' long. Again I don't have the plans or notes in
front of me - but I seem to recall that Mr. B. said they provide about 200
lbs floatation each. Steve
Hi Steve Anderson and All.
Something to consider with flotation;
flotation.
This is one of the mistakes I made on the Snow Goose. I have watertight
compartments under the cockpit seats, in the bow, under the bunk and now
in the added sponsons.
It all will work, but by the new rules, none of it will count. For
this reason I now have to fill them with air tight containers like empty
milk jugs etc., if I want them to count for flotation.
Steve, what size are the sponsons on the new MJ?
Stan, Snow Goose.
Something to consider with flotation;
> Air chambers that are integral with the hull are not allowed. They must be separate > from the hull. Also, you have to pass the test with the two largest chambers punctured.Goto;http://hometown.aol.com/spinners/index.html,and click on
flotation.
This is one of the mistakes I made on the Snow Goose. I have watertight
compartments under the cockpit seats, in the bow, under the bunk and now
in the added sponsons.
It all will work, but by the new rules, none of it will count. For
this reason I now have to fill them with air tight containers like empty
milk jugs etc., if I want them to count for flotation.
Steve, what size are the sponsons on the new MJ?
Stan, Snow Goose.
----- Original Message -----
From: <hwal@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] flotation foam
> So - I have a question and an observation -
>
> 1) Does anyone know how many pounds of floatation is provided by a cubic
foot
> of air?
>
62.4 lbs/cubic ft in fresh water, about 64 lbs/cubic ft. in salt water, if
you believe Archimedes.
Mort
Here are a few random thoughts on this topic.
1) Yes! Beware the ants do love the foam.
2) Using a Stearn inflatable pouch vest on a belt (Highly recommend! The only
safe vest is the one you will wear... if you could predict when you will need
it,you could stay home), I want an inflatable floatation device for my boats. A
waterbed? or 3 man raft? could be hooked to a canister of compressed air? or even
a propane canister and in a pinch inflated with a valve. The drawback to foam is
that on my WWP 15 or Venture 21 there is so little storage that you hate to fill
up the space.
Any thoughts?
Jim
hwal@...wrote:
1) Yes! Beware the ants do love the foam.
2) Using a Stearn inflatable pouch vest on a belt (Highly recommend! The only
safe vest is the one you will wear... if you could predict when you will need
it,you could stay home), I want an inflatable floatation device for my boats. A
waterbed? or 3 man raft? could be hooked to a canister of compressed air? or even
a propane canister and in a pinch inflated with a valve. The drawback to foam is
that on my WWP 15 or Venture 21 there is so little storage that you hate to fill
up the space.
Any thoughts?
Jim
hwal@...wrote:
> In a message dated 12/31/2000 8:36:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>bert.vercauteren@...writes:
>
> << Nothing has more buoyancy than air. Let's build in airtanks and fill them
> with empty plastic bottles, inner tyres, empty camping drinking water bags or
> whatever you're able to find that will keep the air in and the water out.
> >>
>
> Now here is an interesting thread. When our Martha Jane capsized last year
> we added more ballast to good effect. However because we now had so much
> ballast we decided to put some foam floatation in to offset the added solid
> ballast. What I did at that time was a "temporary fix". Like lots of
> temporary fixes - it's been in place for longer than I thought I would leave
> it. I stuffed pieces of foam into the storage area beneath the cockpit sole
> and beneath the bow well. I know that that is really too low - but it was a
> quick fix for "now". We've added the sponsons which provide a good deal of
> floatation. I am also going to add two boxes - one on either side of the
> tabernacle - these will serve as steps for shortlegged people to climb out of
> the well and back onto the deck - provide some storage through a small
> screw-in deck plate from inside the cabin and they will provide some
> additional floatation in the form of air chambers. ( I don't have water
> ballast - I have 825 lbs of lead and sand in the ballast tanks - and may add
> a bit more. - so I want to balance the floatation of the sponsons with
> something forward - just in case).
>
> So - I have a question and an observation -
>
> 1) Does anyone know how many pounds of floatation is provided by a cubic foot
> of air?
>
> 2) Pertaining to foam - I cleared out all of the foam this weekend -
> returning the storage areas to their original function - In the forward
> storage area I found a million carpenter ants. They had not touched any wood
> - but seemed to love eating the closed cell foam. That reminded me that we
> once had some closed cell foam "trim" on our house which became a feast for
> termites. The bug treatment man told us that termites love foam and will eat
> as much as they can get - ignoring the wood right next to it. So - I suppose
> the same is true for the aunts. Just something to think about!:-)
>
> We have just returned from a three day mini cruise on Pine Island Sound on
> the gulf coast of Florida. When I have the time I am going to write up our
> adventure - with a few observations about the pros and cons of that flat
> bottom!
>
> Steve Anderson ( MJ Landroval)
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
In a message dated 12/31/2000 8:36:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bert.vercauteren@...writes:
<< Nothing has more buoyancy than air. Let's build in airtanks and fill them
with empty plastic bottles, inner tyres, empty camping drinking water bags or
whatever you're able to find that will keep the air in and the water out.
we added more ballast to good effect. However because we now had so much
ballast we decided to put some foam floatation in to offset the added solid
ballast. What I did at that time was a "temporary fix". Like lots of
temporary fixes - it's been in place for longer than I thought I would leave
it. I stuffed pieces of foam into the storage area beneath the cockpit sole
and beneath the bow well. I know that that is really too low - but it was a
quick fix for "now". We've added the sponsons which provide a good deal of
floatation. I am also going to add two boxes - one on either side of the
tabernacle - these will serve as steps for shortlegged people to climb out of
the well and back onto the deck - provide some storage through a small
screw-in deck plate from inside the cabin and they will provide some
additional floatation in the form of air chambers. ( I don't have water
ballast - I have 825 lbs of lead and sand in the ballast tanks - and may add
a bit more. - so I want to balance the floatation of the sponsons with
something forward - just in case).
So - I have a question and an observation -
1) Does anyone know how many pounds of floatation is provided by a cubic foot
of air?
2) Pertaining to foam - I cleared out all of the foam this weekend -
returning the storage areas to their original function - In the forward
storage area I found a million carpenter ants. They had not touched any wood
- but seemed to love eating the closed cell foam. That reminded me that we
once had some closed cell foam "trim" on our house which became a feast for
termites. The bug treatment man told us that termites love foam and will eat
as much as they can get - ignoring the wood right next to it. So - I suppose
the same is true for the aunts. Just something to think about!:-)
We have just returned from a three day mini cruise on Pine Island Sound on
the gulf coast of Florida. When I have the time I am going to write up our
adventure - with a few observations about the pros and cons of that flat
bottom!
Steve Anderson ( MJ Landroval)
bert.vercauteren@...writes:
<< Nothing has more buoyancy than air. Let's build in airtanks and fill them
with empty plastic bottles, inner tyres, empty camping drinking water bags or
whatever you're able to find that will keep the air in and the water out.
>>Now here is an interesting thread. When our Martha Jane capsized last year
we added more ballast to good effect. However because we now had so much
ballast we decided to put some foam floatation in to offset the added solid
ballast. What I did at that time was a "temporary fix". Like lots of
temporary fixes - it's been in place for longer than I thought I would leave
it. I stuffed pieces of foam into the storage area beneath the cockpit sole
and beneath the bow well. I know that that is really too low - but it was a
quick fix for "now". We've added the sponsons which provide a good deal of
floatation. I am also going to add two boxes - one on either side of the
tabernacle - these will serve as steps for shortlegged people to climb out of
the well and back onto the deck - provide some storage through a small
screw-in deck plate from inside the cabin and they will provide some
additional floatation in the form of air chambers. ( I don't have water
ballast - I have 825 lbs of lead and sand in the ballast tanks - and may add
a bit more. - so I want to balance the floatation of the sponsons with
something forward - just in case).
So - I have a question and an observation -
1) Does anyone know how many pounds of floatation is provided by a cubic foot
of air?
2) Pertaining to foam - I cleared out all of the foam this weekend -
returning the storage areas to their original function - In the forward
storage area I found a million carpenter ants. They had not touched any wood
- but seemed to love eating the closed cell foam. That reminded me that we
once had some closed cell foam "trim" on our house which became a feast for
termites. The bug treatment man told us that termites love foam and will eat
as much as they can get - ignoring the wood right next to it. So - I suppose
the same is true for the aunts. Just something to think about!:-)
We have just returned from a three day mini cruise on Pine Island Sound on
the gulf coast of Florida. When I have the time I am going to write up our
adventure - with a few observations about the pros and cons of that flat
bottom!
Steve Anderson ( MJ Landroval)
Bert:
I agree with you about PU foam. I wouldn't
have it in my boat. I do use Polystyrene foam, though. I feel it
performs much better, especially the bead type. What do you think about
this material?
Chuck
Dear Bolger friends,I've been reading this group's messages for almost a year now, without participating in the discussions.But now I feel I have to share my view. One of the subjects that keeps coming back in this group is flotation foam. It always seems to cause long threads of opinions.Here's my point :<snip>Happy New Year to all of you,Bert.
Dear Bolger friends,
I've been reading this group's messages for
almost a year now, without participating in the discussions.
But now I feel I have to share my view. One of
the subjects that keeps coming back in this group is flotation foam. It always
seems to cause long threads of opinions.Here's my point :
Nobody seems to question the long-term qualities
of closed cell foam: are these cells really closed and dry, after several
years in a marine environment ? My answer is no.
A few months ago, I took a small piece of
lightweight foam home from a boatyard I was visiting. The foam was so-called top
quality closed cells, used by the yard in the construction of a one-off around
the world 40 footer. The weight was 50 kg / m³ (3.12 pounds / ft³). To
get a feel how light this is : cork weighs about 250 kg / m³ ( 15.6 pounds
/ft³ ).
At home I started my experiment : I was going to
submerge this piece of foam for several months in a bucket of water, weighing it
every month to see what happened to its weight. The dry-weight was exactly 15
grams.
After five days, my curiosity became too strong
: I took out the foam, carefully dried its outside with a clean towel and put it
on the digital scale : 23 grams!! In only 5 days the weight had increased with
54 % !
I ended the experiment there and
then...
A few years ago, there was an article in
Professional Boatbuider-magazine, which was the result of a serious research to
gather data about foam used in yachtbuilding. The report was nothing less than
alarming..What they did, was drilling pieces of core material out of existing
yachthulls. These hulls were from several different yards and of different
age.
I don't remember the exact
numbers and seem to have lost the article, but I am sure about the overall
conclusion : most foam had taken in water and thereby lost a serious percentage
of its buoyancy, up to complete saturation , zero buoyancy. A very dangerous
situation indeed.
Finally, I think, that we as amateur
boatbuilders should look in other directions to solve the flotation problem.
There are other, more ecologically sound alternatives. PU-foam is a dirty
material,
potentially dangerous for your health while
building and sailing.
( fire risk, lethal fumes )
Nothing has more buoyancy than air. Let's build in airtanks and fill them with empty plastic bottles, inner tyres, empty camping drinking water bags or whatever you're able to find that will keep the air in and the water out.
Happy New Year to all of you,
Bert.