[bolger] Light Scooner
<snip>
BO>I lined out the topsides of the Light Scooner in my living room,
BO><snip> I was overcome by a tremendous urge to add a little
BO>deadrise (a "Clapham" V-bottom.)
BO>1) Does this even seem like a good idea at all?
No. You'll stuff the planing capabilities up. People will be unhappy at
the slow ride. Initial stability will reduce. People will fall out when
they step pn a deck
BO>2) If it is, does the above seem like the right amount of deadrise?
For another design, may well be. Why not head to Pete Culler's "file
bottoms"??
BO>3) If I put together the bulkheads and topsides and install a 2x4
BO>keelson the length of the bottom, should I be able to cut the bilge
BO>panels to fit?
More weight, more complexity, loss of planing capability, tippier boat;
does cutting panels matter??
BO>As if that wasn't enough monkeying around with the Scooner, I'm also
BO>thinking of moving the daggerboard to the centerline just infront of
BO>the mast and weighting it a'la the Singlehanded Schooner. Again, any
BO>thoughts on how moving the daggerboard forward would effect the boat
BO>would be appreciated.
You'll lose the balance between sail and board, creating an evil
hard-mouthed beast that will balk in stays.
Look, good people, I know the urge to modify designs becomes
overwhelming at times. By all means design your own boat if you wish
to, or make major modifications to someone elses design, but please
accept you'll be living with the consequences and those consequences
would not have arisen if you'd followed the original design.
Bolger's designs vary from the sketchy to the very carefully thought out
and through. Instant Boats-type designs, up to and including Loose
Moose, are in the latter class. You modify at your peril. We have had
several local examples of spectacularly bad design modifications which
looked (on paper) as though they should have worked - eg Roger Keyes'
Micro in its initial keel-less, lee-boarded, stern-hung rudder
configuration, a menace to innocent river banks, reeds and cows in water
meadows.
Changes to bulkhead disposition and design in our AS29 seriously
weakened the whole midships structure. Even apparently minor design
alterations can have a pronounced effect. An as-designed LS may capsize,
but can't go fully inverted (not permanently) if the masts are the
as-designed thick chunks of light and buoyant timber. I've already held
forth on LS design modifications, at length, for years. Try
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/redesign.htm
which has the formal blessing of the designer.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>I lined out the topsides of the Light Scooner in my living room,
BO><snip> I was overcome by a tremendous urge to add a little
BO>deadrise (a "Clapham" V-bottom.)
BO>1) Does this even seem like a good idea at all?
No. You'll stuff the planing capabilities up. People will be unhappy at
the slow ride. Initial stability will reduce. People will fall out when
they step pn a deck
BO>2) If it is, does the above seem like the right amount of deadrise?
For another design, may well be. Why not head to Pete Culler's "file
bottoms"??
BO>3) If I put together the bulkheads and topsides and install a 2x4
BO>keelson the length of the bottom, should I be able to cut the bilge
BO>panels to fit?
More weight, more complexity, loss of planing capability, tippier boat;
does cutting panels matter??
BO>As if that wasn't enough monkeying around with the Scooner, I'm also
BO>thinking of moving the daggerboard to the centerline just infront of
BO>the mast and weighting it a'la the Singlehanded Schooner. Again, any
BO>thoughts on how moving the daggerboard forward would effect the boat
BO>would be appreciated.
You'll lose the balance between sail and board, creating an evil
hard-mouthed beast that will balk in stays.
Look, good people, I know the urge to modify designs becomes
overwhelming at times. By all means design your own boat if you wish
to, or make major modifications to someone elses design, but please
accept you'll be living with the consequences and those consequences
would not have arisen if you'd followed the original design.
Bolger's designs vary from the sketchy to the very carefully thought out
and through. Instant Boats-type designs, up to and including Loose
Moose, are in the latter class. You modify at your peril. We have had
several local examples of spectacularly bad design modifications which
looked (on paper) as though they should have worked - eg Roger Keyes'
Micro in its initial keel-less, lee-boarded, stern-hung rudder
configuration, a menace to innocent river banks, reeds and cows in water
meadows.
Changes to bulkhead disposition and design in our AS29 seriously
weakened the whole midships structure. Even apparently minor design
alterations can have a pronounced effect. An as-designed LS may capsize,
but can't go fully inverted (not permanently) if the masts are the
as-designed thick chunks of light and buoyant timber. I've already held
forth on LS design modifications, at length, for years. Try
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/redesign.htm
which has the formal blessing of the designer.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
Aye-aye!
At 09:26 AM 11/24/1999 -93000, you wrote:
At 09:26 AM 11/24/1999 -93000, you wrote:
><snip>
>
>BO>I lined out the topsides of the Light Scooner in my living room,
>BO><snip> I was overcome by a tremendous urge to add a little
>BO>deadrise (a "Clapham" V-bottom.)
>
>
>
>BO>1) Does this even seem like a good idea at all?
>
>No. You'll stuff the planing capabilities up. People will be unhappy at
>the slow ride. Initial stability will reduce. People will fall out when
>they step pn a deck
>BO>2) If it is, does the above seem like the right amount of deadrise?
>
>For another design, may well be. Why not head to Pete Culler's "file
>bottoms"??
>
>BO>3) If I put together the bulkheads and topsides and install a 2x4
>BO>keelson the length of the bottom, should I be able to cut the bilge
>BO>panels to fit?
>
>More weight, more complexity, loss of planing capability, tippier boat;
>does cutting panels matter??
>
>BO>As if that wasn't enough monkeying around with the Scooner, I'm also
>BO>thinking of moving the daggerboard to the centerline just infront of
>BO>the mast and weighting it a'la the Singlehanded Schooner. Again, any
>BO>thoughts on how moving the daggerboard forward would effect the boat
>BO>would be appreciated.
>
>You'll lose the balance between sail and board, creating an evil
>hard-mouthed beast that will balk in stays.
>
>Look, good people, I know the urge to modify designs becomes
>overwhelming at times. By all means design your own boat if you wish
>to, or make major modifications to someone elses design, but please
>accept you'll be living with the consequences and those consequences
>would not have arisen if you'd followed the original design.
>
>Bolger's designs vary from the sketchy to the very carefully thought out
>and through. Instant Boats-type designs, up to and including Loose
>Moose, are in the latter class. You modify at your peril. We have had
>several local examples of spectacularly bad design modifications which
>looked (on paper) as though they should have worked - eg Roger Keyes'
>Micro in its initial keel-less, lee-boarded, stern-hung rudder
>configuration, a menace to innocent river banks, reeds and cows in water
>meadows.
>Changes to bulkhead disposition and design in our AS29 seriously
>weakened the whole midships structure. Even apparently minor design
>alterations can have a pronounced effect. An as-designed LS may capsize,
>but can't go fully inverted (not permanently) if the masts are the
>as-designed thick chunks of light and buoyant timber. I've already held
>forth on LS design modifications, at length, for years. Try
>http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/redesign.htm
>which has the formal blessing of the designer.
>
>Tim & Flying Tadpole
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-- Check out your group's private Chat room
>--http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>
>
At 02:17 PM 11/23/1999 -0500, you wrote:
center section.
jib size to your purpose.
Gregg
>2) I'm looking to increase buoyancy as much as possible. I'm alreadyThe daggerboard is sealed in itself and dis not prevent me from sealing the
>planning to go engineless and seal off the aft compartment. Since I'm
>already planning to extend the center bulkhead and seal it off (still
>haven't got the mast hole figured out) I don't mind the loss of
>forward cockpit space.
center section.
>Perhaps the way to compensate for increased weather helm is anotherThe trim is very sensitive to trim, and, if anything, I would increase the
>headsail. I love the way that Schooners with multiple jibs look, and
>it would give more strings to pull on when we go a'sailing.
jib size to your purpose.
Gregg
For my two cents, if I thought I knew anything about boat design I
wouldn't be building from someone elses plans. Be that as it may...
My Galley (a early Bolger design) has deadrise, maybe 6 degrees. It is
built with 1/4 ply, and has a 1x3 as the center keelson. 2x4 is just
overkill IMHO. The chine logs are is good friend the 1x2.
To keep the bukkhead watertight but still allow the mast to step thru
why don't you put the mast thru a tube? Maybe a PVC pipe? I hear you
can't epoxy to PVC. That didn't stop me but there were no strains on
it. Certainly you can contact cement venier to it, then epoxy the
venier to the hull.
Or just toss together 4 plywood scraps into a box to collar the mast.
(I hope the deck over this is still off.)
david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=923
wouldn't be building from someone elses plans. Be that as it may...
My Galley (a early Bolger design) has deadrise, maybe 6 degrees. It is
built with 1/4 ply, and has a 1x3 as the center keelson. 2x4 is just
overkill IMHO. The chine logs are is good friend the 1x2.
To keep the bukkhead watertight but still allow the mast to step thru
why don't you put the mast thru a tube? Maybe a PVC pipe? I hear you
can't epoxy to PVC. That didn't stop me but there were no strains on
it. Certainly you can contact cement venier to it, then epoxy the
venier to the hull.
Or just toss together 4 plywood scraps into a box to collar the mast.
(I hope the deck over this is still off.)
david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=923
> >David Ryan wrote:stack
> >
> > > Bolger Boat Builders --
> > >
> > > While on a daring midnight raid of Home Depot, I encountered a
> > > of 1/4 inch ply for $15/sheet. I picked it over and went homewith 5
> > > sheets of pretty nice stuff.also
> > >
> >
> >What type of plywood?
>
> Doug Fir Exterior
>
> > >
> > > As if that wasn't enough monkeying around with the Scooner, I'm
> > > thinking of moving the daggerboard to the centerline just infrontof
> > > the mast and weighting it a'la the Singlehanded Schooner. Again,any
> > > thoughts on how moving the daggerboard forward would effect theboat
> > > would be appreciated.
> > >
> >
> >This would increase weather helm, though probably not enough that you
> >couldn't compensate for it.
> >
>
> My reasons for wanting to move the daggerboard forward are twofold:
>
> 1) The off-center daggerboard just bugs me. This seems to be a
> standard Bolger trick, and I'm mostly infavor of it, but on the
> Scooner it just bothers me.
>
> 2) I'm looking to increase buoyancy as much as possible. I'm already
> planning to go engineless and seal off the aft compartment. Since I'm
> already planning to extend the center bulkhead and seal it off (still
> haven't got the mast hole figured out) I don't mind the loss of
> forward cockpit space.
>
> Perhaps the way to compensate for increased weather helm is another
> headsail. I love the way that Schooners with multiple jibs look, and
> it would give more strings to pull on when we go a'sailing.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296
>David Ryan wrote:Doug Fir Exterior
>
> > Bolger Boat Builders --
> >
> > While on a daring midnight raid of Home Depot, I encountered a stack
> > of 1/4 inch ply for $15/sheet. I picked it over and went home with 5
> > sheets of pretty nice stuff.
> >
>
>What type of plywood?
> >My reasons for wanting to move the daggerboard forward are twofold:
> > As if that wasn't enough monkeying around with the Scooner, I'm also
> > thinking of moving the daggerboard to the centerline just infront of
> > the mast and weighting it a'la the Singlehanded Schooner. Again, any
> > thoughts on how moving the daggerboard forward would effect the boat
> > would be appreciated.
> >
>
>This would increase weather helm, though probably not enough that you
>couldn't compensate for it.
>
1) The off-center daggerboard just bugs me. This seems to be a
standard Bolger trick, and I'm mostly infavor of it, but on the
Scooner it just bothers me.
2) I'm looking to increase buoyancy as much as possible. I'm already
planning to go engineless and seal off the aft compartment. Since I'm
already planning to extend the center bulkhead and seal it off (still
haven't got the mast hole figured out) I don't mind the loss of
forward cockpit space.
Perhaps the way to compensate for increased weather helm is another
headsail. I love the way that Schooners with multiple jibs look, and
it would give more strings to pull on when we go a'sailing.
Any thoughts?
David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
David Ryan wrote:
deadrise to reduce pounding. On a reach or run, adding deadrise to the
bottom will make it more difficult to plane.
handy, what is this, about 6 degrees? Seems to me the added complexity
really wouldn't be worth it.
couldn't compensate for it.
> Bolger Boat Builders --What type of plywood?
>
> While on a daring midnight raid of Home Depot, I encountered a stack
> of 1/4 inch ply for $15/sheet. I picked it over and went home with 5
> sheets of pretty nice stuff.
>
>You sail the boat heeled(?) slightly into a chop, so you effectively have
> I lined out the topsides of the Light Scooner in my living room,
> using my 2 week old daughter to flatten the sheets. As I began on the
> Bulkheads, I was overcome by a tremendous urge to add a little
> deadrise (a "Clapham" V-bottom.)
>
> My instinct tells me if I do this, the angle at the centerline should
> be the same as the angle at the chine. I'm not sure why, but it just
> looks right.
>
> So my questions are the following:
>
> 1) Does this even seem like a good idea at all?
>
deadrise to reduce pounding. On a reach or run, adding deadrise to the
bottom will make it more difficult to plane.
>Depends on how much we are talking about. Don't have the scooner plans
> 2) If it is, does the above seem like the right amount of deadrise?
>
handy, what is this, about 6 degrees? Seems to me the added complexity
really wouldn't be worth it.
>Should be able to.
> 3) If I put together the bulkheads and topsides and install a 2x4
> keelson the length of the bottom, should I be able to cut the bilge
> panels to fit?
>
>This would increase weather helm, though probably not enough that you
> As if that wasn't enough monkeying around with the Scooner, I'm also
> thinking of moving the daggerboard to the centerline just infront of
> the mast and weighting it a'la the Singlehanded Schooner. Again, any
> thoughts on how moving the daggerboard forward would effect the boat
> would be appreciated.
>
couldn't compensate for it.
Bolger Boat Builders --
While on a daring midnight raid of Home Depot, I encountered a stack
of 1/4 inch ply for $15/sheet. I picked it over and went home with 5
sheets of pretty nice stuff.
I lined out the topsides of the Light Scooner in my living room,
using my 2 week old daughter to flatten the sheets. As I began on the
Bulkheads, I was overcome by a tremendous urge to add a little
deadrise (a "Clapham" V-bottom.)
My instinct tells me if I do this, the angle at the centerline should
be the same as the angle at the chine. I'm not sure why, but it just
looks right.
So my questions are the following:
1) Does this even seem like a good idea at all?
2) If it is, does the above seem like the right amount of deadrise?
3) If I put together the bulkheads and topsides and install a 2x4
keelson the length of the bottom, should I be able to cut the bilge
panels to fit?
As if that wasn't enough monkeying around with the Scooner, I'm also
thinking of moving the daggerboard to the centerline just infront of
the mast and weighting it a'la the Singlehanded Schooner. Again, any
thoughts on how moving the daggerboard forward would effect the boat
would be appreciated.
Yours in boat building,
David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
While on a daring midnight raid of Home Depot, I encountered a stack
of 1/4 inch ply for $15/sheet. I picked it over and went home with 5
sheets of pretty nice stuff.
I lined out the topsides of the Light Scooner in my living room,
using my 2 week old daughter to flatten the sheets. As I began on the
Bulkheads, I was overcome by a tremendous urge to add a little
deadrise (a "Clapham" V-bottom.)
My instinct tells me if I do this, the angle at the centerline should
be the same as the angle at the chine. I'm not sure why, but it just
looks right.
So my questions are the following:
1) Does this even seem like a good idea at all?
2) If it is, does the above seem like the right amount of deadrise?
3) If I put together the bulkheads and topsides and install a 2x4
keelson the length of the bottom, should I be able to cut the bilge
panels to fit?
As if that wasn't enough monkeying around with the Scooner, I'm also
thinking of moving the daggerboard to the centerline just infront of
the mast and weighting it a'la the Singlehanded Schooner. Again, any
thoughts on how moving the daggerboard forward would effect the boat
would be appreciated.
Yours in boat building,
David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296