Re: [bolger] Re: Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes
Greetings Peter,
My experience with my Long Micro Thylacine heaving to is as follows.
Mizzen sheeted flat, main furled.
10 knots: lies quietly head to wind.
15 knots: lies head to wind but veering 45 degrees either side of the true
wind.
20 knots: lies BROADSIDE to the wind.
25 knots: not tried despite having plenty of opportunity this summer.
I expect that the considerable windage of the mainmast right forward and the
bulk of the furled sail offsets the leverage of the mizzen. Dissappointing
as my last refuge during a summer squall would've been to sheet the mizzen
flat , drop the main and bolt down the hatch. That now looks unwise to put
it mildly.
Gavin Langmuir. Melbourne.
My experience with my Long Micro Thylacine heaving to is as follows.
Mizzen sheeted flat, main furled.
10 knots: lies quietly head to wind.
15 knots: lies head to wind but veering 45 degrees either side of the true
wind.
20 knots: lies BROADSIDE to the wind.
25 knots: not tried despite having plenty of opportunity this summer.
I expect that the considerable windage of the mainmast right forward and the
bulk of the furled sail offsets the leverage of the mizzen. Dissappointing
as my last refuge during a summer squall would've been to sheet the mizzen
flat , drop the main and bolt down the hatch. That now looks unwise to put
it mildly.
Gavin Langmuir. Melbourne.
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Lenihan <ellengaest@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 8:08 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes
> Where I sail my MICRO,there is a river current of 1.5kts and the
> lay of the lake versus prevailing winds makes it impossible to get
> her nose into the wind.....the current just sucks the whole boat
> sideways.
> However,the point made about windage from the mainmast so far
> forward is interesting.When I lower my sails,in any kind of wind over
> say 10kts,and starting with the mainsail first,the boat appears to
> settle a bit off the wind.This quickly changes however,the minute I
> furl the mizzen.Then she swings around and begins to slowly sail
> downwind!That mainmast acts as a very small sail in strong enough
> winds.........
> As to the need for the mizzen;I tried,once,sailing my Micro
> without the mizzen.Never had so much difficulty in all my life!The
> tiller became a thing possessed and I just could not get her to point
> like before.I concluded that the rudder area was just too small and
> needs the mizzen to balance forces.Otherwise,it is just like a
> regular catboat and would need one of those famous"barn door"rudders
> with lots of area aft.
> I cannot help but think that the off-set mizzen position may be
> part of Tims' problem.In my minds' eye I see a wind vane and wonder
> how well it would pivot into the wind were the "tail" end off-set
> from the pivot centerline?I know Bolger has often mentioned that
> regarding off-set centerboards and mizzens,"boats don't take any
> notice of the asymmetry" and I guess this is true when actually
> sailing the boats.Heaving to may be another story......
> Also,for the boat to really weathercock nose to the wind,a dead
> flat,locked-on-the-centerline sail would,it seems,be required.A sheet
> of plywood comes to mind.
> That's my frozen pennies worth to the discussion.
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,on the frozen shores of the St.Lawrence......
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > > > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like
> > > looking
> > > > >to windward hove to
> >
> > In a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen
> > (carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big
> enough
> > to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised.
> I
> > was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
> > (simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
> > looks pretty small.
> >
> > I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
> > mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
> > have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in
> a
> > yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
> > the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.
> >
> > A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
> > isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
> > heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough
> useful
> > effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
> >
> > Peter
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>
>
The Drascombe is a yawl and she heaves-to like a dream, but she has a
jib. You backwind the jib, sheet the mizzen flat, let the main fly
(or lower it), and throw the tiller to lee. The boat points about 40
degrees to the wind and drifts sideways. You can safely do this in a
gale if the waves aren't too steep, though you shoud reef the jib a
little first.
Frank
jib. You backwind the jib, sheet the mizzen flat, let the main fly
(or lower it), and throw the tiller to lee. The boat points about 40
degrees to the wind and drifts sideways. You can safely do this in a
gale if the waves aren't too steep, though you shoud reef the jib a
little first.
Frank
>useful
> A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
> isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
> heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough
> effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
>
> Peter
Where I sail my MICRO,there is a river current of 1.5kts and the
lay of the lake versus prevailing winds makes it impossible to get
her nose into the wind.....the current just sucks the whole boat
sideways.
However,the point made about windage from the mainmast so far
forward is interesting.When I lower my sails,in any kind of wind over
say 10kts,and starting with the mainsail first,the boat appears to
settle a bit off the wind.This quickly changes however,the minute I
furl the mizzen.Then she swings around and begins to slowly sail
downwind!That mainmast acts as a very small sail in strong enough
winds.........
As to the need for the mizzen;I tried,once,sailing my Micro
without the mizzen.Never had so much difficulty in all my life!The
tiller became a thing possessed and I just could not get her to point
like before.I concluded that the rudder area was just too small and
needs the mizzen to balance forces.Otherwise,it is just like a
regular catboat and would need one of those famous"barn door"rudders
with lots of area aft.
I cannot help but think that the off-set mizzen position may be
part of Tims' problem.In my minds' eye I see a wind vane and wonder
how well it would pivot into the wind were the "tail" end off-set
from the pivot centerline?I know Bolger has often mentioned that
regarding off-set centerboards and mizzens,"boats don't take any
notice of the asymmetry" and I guess this is true when actually
sailing the boats.Heaving to may be another story......
Also,for the boat to really weathercock nose to the wind,a dead
flat,locked-on-the-centerline sail would,it seems,be required.A sheet
of plywood comes to mind.
That's my frozen pennies worth to the discussion.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,on the frozen shores of the St.Lawrence......
lay of the lake versus prevailing winds makes it impossible to get
her nose into the wind.....the current just sucks the whole boat
sideways.
However,the point made about windage from the mainmast so far
forward is interesting.When I lower my sails,in any kind of wind over
say 10kts,and starting with the mainsail first,the boat appears to
settle a bit off the wind.This quickly changes however,the minute I
furl the mizzen.Then she swings around and begins to slowly sail
downwind!That mainmast acts as a very small sail in strong enough
winds.........
As to the need for the mizzen;I tried,once,sailing my Micro
without the mizzen.Never had so much difficulty in all my life!The
tiller became a thing possessed and I just could not get her to point
like before.I concluded that the rudder area was just too small and
needs the mizzen to balance forces.Otherwise,it is just like a
regular catboat and would need one of those famous"barn door"rudders
with lots of area aft.
I cannot help but think that the off-set mizzen position may be
part of Tims' problem.In my minds' eye I see a wind vane and wonder
how well it would pivot into the wind were the "tail" end off-set
from the pivot centerline?I know Bolger has often mentioned that
regarding off-set centerboards and mizzens,"boats don't take any
notice of the asymmetry" and I guess this is true when actually
sailing the boats.Heaving to may be another story......
Also,for the boat to really weathercock nose to the wind,a dead
flat,locked-on-the-centerline sail would,it seems,be required.A sheet
of plywood comes to mind.
That's my frozen pennies worth to the discussion.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,on the frozen shores of the St.Lawrence......
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like
> > looking
> > > >to windward hove to
>
> In a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen
> (carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big
enough
> to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised.
I
> was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
> (simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
> looks pretty small.
>
> I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
> mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
> have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in
a
> yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
> the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.
>
> A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
> isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
> heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough
useful
> effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
>
> Peter
"As for my plastic sloop, about the only time I feel it is safe to
leave the helm is when the boat is moored fore and aft."
Peter, build yourself a Chebacco -- on my only outing during the holidays, I
found I could ignore the tiller (with or without the mizzen) for quite a
while. I was somewhere around a close reach or close hauled at the time.
(I didn't try other points as I had a destination in mind.) Sure makes
getting a snack and a cup of tea easy, though.
Jamie Orr
leave the helm is when the boat is moored fore and aft."
Peter, build yourself a Chebacco -- on my only outing during the holidays, I
found I could ignore the tiller (with or without the mizzen) for quite a
while. I was somewhere around a close reach or close hauled at the time.
(I didn't try other points as I had a destination in mind.) Sure makes
getting a snack and a cup of tea easy, though.
Jamie Orr
>At less than 15 knots of wind it would do ok at keeping thethan 15
> boat pointed into the wind while you raised the main. At greater
> knots it wouldn't.Thanks for the observation. I would have thought that it would work
better at higher wind speeds, within reason. Just goes to show what I
know....
As for my plastic sloop, about the only time I feel it is safe to
leave the helm is when the boat is moored fore and aft.
Peter
In a message dated 1/19/2001 9:17:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jsharper@...writes:
<< I'm not sure about the appropriate ratio but on my Nimble 20 the ability of
the mizzen to keep the bow pointed into the wind varied according to
windspeed. At less than 15 knots of wind it would do ok at keeping the
boat pointed into the wind while you raised the main. >>
This conversation really seems to be spread out over a long period of time -
but about two weeks ago I recounted my martha jane experiences in this regard
- that with the new dual rudders I've discovered that the direction in which
one lashed the helm was a real key factor. Steve Anderson (MJ Landroval)
jsharper@...writes:
<< I'm not sure about the appropriate ratio but on my Nimble 20 the ability of
the mizzen to keep the bow pointed into the wind varied according to
windspeed. At less than 15 knots of wind it would do ok at keeping the
boat pointed into the wind while you raised the main. >>
This conversation really seems to be spread out over a long period of time -
but about two weeks ago I recounted my martha jane experiences in this regard
- that with the new dual rudders I've discovered that the direction in which
one lashed the helm was a real key factor. Steve Anderson (MJ Landroval)
Entropy doesn't like to keep her nose into the wind either. However, plastic
sloop pilots define "heave-to", as "drift slowly sideways while making
swings windward and leeward"
With the tiller loose (or possibly pushed to leeward, tends to drift there),
and the mizzen sheeted in, Entropy will "heave-to" by this definition.
Good enough for me to leave the helm to play with the sail.
Richard Spelling,http://www.spellingbusiness.com/boats
From the COLD muddy waters of Oklahoma
sloop pilots define "heave-to", as "drift slowly sideways while making
swings windward and leeward"
With the tiller loose (or possibly pushed to leeward, tends to drift there),
and the mizzen sheeted in, Entropy will "heave-to" by this definition.
Good enough for me to leave the helm to play with the sail.
Richard Spelling,http://www.spellingbusiness.com/boats
From the COLD muddy waters of Oklahoma
> From: "Leo W. Foltz" <leo@...>
> Subject: Re: Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes
>
> Tim,
>
> ever tried a car tire with some rope over the bow?
>
> >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like looking
> >to windward hove to
>
> Leo
> (cutting plywood for the deck of Twilight in Germany and waiting for Peter
> L. to come to Europe to help finish some Bolger boxes...)
>
>
I'm not sure about the appropriate ratio but on my Nimble 20 the ability of
the mizzen to keep the bow pointed into the wind varied according to
windspeed. At less than 15 knots of wind it would do ok at keeping the
boat pointed into the wind while you raised the main. At greater than 15
knots it wouldn't. I'm not sure exactly why that is but that was my
experience. I should say that it would still keep you somewhere above a
beam reach in greater winds just not as close to the wind.
My 2 cents,
John
"Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 01/19/2001 08:52:13 AM
Please respond tobolger@egroups.com
To:bolger@egroups.com
cc:
Subject: [bolger] Re: Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes
(carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big enough
to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised. I
was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
(simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
looks pretty small.
I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in a
yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.
A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough useful
effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
Peter
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
- no flogging dead horses
- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
- stay on topic and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
the mizzen to keep the bow pointed into the wind varied according to
windspeed. At less than 15 knots of wind it would do ok at keeping the
boat pointed into the wind while you raised the main. At greater than 15
knots it wouldn't. I'm not sure exactly why that is but that was my
experience. I should say that it would still keep you somewhere above a
beam reach in greater winds just not as close to the wind.
My 2 cents,
John
"Peter Vanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 01/19/2001 08:52:13 AM
Please respond tobolger@egroups.com
To:bolger@egroups.com
cc:
Subject: [bolger] Re: Dear Aunt LM (1) Heaving to in big boxes
> > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not likeIn a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen
> looking
> > >to windward hove to
(carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big enough
to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised. I
was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
(simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
looks pretty small.
I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in a
yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.
A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough useful
effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
Peter
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
- no flogging dead horses
- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
- stay on topic and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> > >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not likeIn a review of the Nimble 24, there was a comment that the mizzen
> looking
> > >to windward hove to
(carried over at the same size from the Nimble 20) was not big enough
to keep the bow dead into the wind while the main was being raised. I
was thinking about this while looking at a Bolger 39' yawl
(simplified, centerboard, multichine) published in MAIB. The mizzen
looks pretty small.
I suppose the question is balance between the wind drag of the main
mast (and its fittings, etc) vs the area of the mizzen. Does anyone
have a notion of the 'normal' ratio of main mast to mizzen mast in a
yawl? It would also seem that the farther forward the main mast is,
the bigger the mizzen would have to be to get the desired effect.
A final question: is it worth having a yawl at all if the mizzen
isn't big enough for best effect during sail raising/lowering,
heaving to, and anchoring? In other words, can it have enough useful
effect on helm balance etc while under sail to be worthwhile anyway?
Peter
Not really the point, Leo; in my shallow lakes we could easily just
drop anchor. Actually, the shallowness may be part of the problem
because the boards are rarely fully down and board position makes a
surprising difference. Anyway, Lady Kate's normal hove-to position
is that of a catboat, beam on (in fact I used the techniques in Stan
Grayson's "Catboats" to reef her). I just feel tho' that there's got
to be a better way, and giving a singlehander more to do is not
it!
Tim & FLying Tadpole
drop anchor. Actually, the shallowness may be part of the problem
because the boards are rarely fully down and board position makes a
surprising difference. Anyway, Lady Kate's normal hove-to position
is that of a catboat, beam on (in fact I used the techniques in Stan
Grayson's "Catboats" to reef her). I just feel tho' that there's got
to be a better way, and giving a singlehander more to do is not
it!
Tim & FLying Tadpole
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Leo W. Foltz" <leo@l...> wrote:
> Tim,
>
> ever tried a car tire with some rope over the bow?
>
> >Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like
looking
> >to windward hove to
>
> Leo
> (cutting plywood for the deck of Twilight in Germany and waiting for
Peter
> L. to come to Europe to help finish some Bolger boxes...)
Tim,
ever tried a car tire with some rope over the bow?
(cutting plywood for the deck of Twilight in Germany and waiting for Peter
L. to come to Europe to help finish some Bolger boxes...)
ever tried a car tire with some rope over the bow?
>Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like lookingLeo
>to windward hove to
(cutting plywood for the deck of Twilight in Germany and waiting for Peter
L. to come to Europe to help finish some Bolger boxes...)
Dear Wises,
How did you heave to in LM2 in decent winds (ie 30knots & above)?
What sort of sea/wind angle? How much forereaching and leeway?
Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like looking
to windward hove to and would prefer to go back to sailing, by herself
if she can get awaay with it. This leads to the occasional
interesting time when singlehanding and trying to tuck the third reef
in... In contrast, Roger Keyes' Micro tucks herself docilely at 50
degrees and gently slithers sideways, even in the 15m Southern Ocean
swells.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
How did you heave to in LM2 in decent winds (ie 30knots & above)?
What sort of sea/wind angle? How much forereaching and leeway?
Even with a mizzen, we find Lady Kate the AS29 does not like looking
to windward hove to and would prefer to go back to sailing, by herself
if she can get awaay with it. This leads to the occasional
interesting time when singlehanding and trying to tuck the third reef
in... In contrast, Roger Keyes' Micro tucks herself docilely at 50
degrees and gently slithers sideways, even in the 15m Southern Ocean
swells.
Tim & Flying Tadpole