Re: [bolger] Re: First Boat - make your own ply

That's a nice system, but way more complicated than
what you need, you can just use plastic vapour barrier
and calking to seal, or reuseable spline, you don't
need any special table, and you certainly don't need
to worry about the vaccum finding a pathway, since the
ply is dry. When you are bagging cloth its a
different deal. On the other hand it looks handy, and
might be a good invvetment if you were bagging in
volume.

When I built the 24 foot sides for my tri, you did
need a jig for the parabolic cross section, though it
can be done with gravity, but on flat pannels all you
need is something to align the first scarphs, and then
the above sheets just lined up with the first. If you
want to be fancy, you don't need a table like the one
shown, just a full length rabet in a piece of wood
near a wall (imagine an extremely simplified version
of a panel saw), or some shear timbers cobbled
together, as long as the edges are all held in line by
gravity, the scarphs will line up fine.

I used the cheappest Shop Vac available for my
bagging, and it sucked down that 24'x4'sheet like the
weight of the world had fallen on it. Though I guess
vaccum is expensive, I got to like it so much that we
would throw small pieces in a bag, even use splint
scarphs on small sections. The quality is great, it
tends to manage glue squeeze out so that it fills any
voids etc, and fairs the results.

--- geo@... wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
For pictures of a vacuum bagging setup try this link
 
 
<a
href="http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/6hrcanoe.html">http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/6hrcanoe.html</a>
 
 
By going back to his homepage you can see a number of
other boat 
projects he has built including a Sneakeasy and a
Diablo 
 
--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell
<proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:

> I have built two boats by vaccum bagging 1/8' 
> doorskins together. One a Hughes Trimaran,

and

> another my Elegant Punt. In my neck of the

woods 1/4"

> 1088 is about 70-80 Canadian. On the other

hand, 1/8

> doorskins are about 10-14 bucks they can be

sourced

> with good glue, and all the ones I have used

didn't

> have any voids. You can use a really cheap

epoxy, I

> used Chem Tech, since it is going to the neutral

axis.

> The result is USCG approved ply, well at

least in

> Hughes charter cats. All you need for a bag

is

> visqueen (?) You can stack sheats on top of

each

> other, and next to each other in the same

bag. You

> can make mega sheets that are infinite length,

with

> stagered scarph joints. It is kind of

fun. All you

> need is a shop vac, though with a sv, the last

half

> inch of you ply (where the loads run wild)

won't

> probably be bonded, that is usually where the

waste

> goes anyway, but it does argue for either a vane

pump,

> or stagered mega sheets if you want long

material.

> 
> 
> 
>

_______________________________________________________

> Build your own website in minutes and for free at

<a
href="http://ca.geocities.com">http://ca.geocities.com</a> 
 
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_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com

For pictures of a vacuum bagging setup try this link

http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/6hrcanoe.html

By going back to his homepage you can see a number of other boat
projects he has built including a Sneakeasy and a Diablo

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> I have built two boats by vaccum bagging 1/8'
> doorskins together. One a Hughes Trimaran, and
> another my Elegant Punt. In my neck of the woods 1/4"
> 1088 is about 70-80 Canadian. On the other hand, 1/8
> doorskins are about 10-14 bucks they can be sourced
> with good glue, and all the ones I have used didn't
> have any voids. You can use a really cheap epoxy, I
> used Chem Tech, since it is going to the neutral axis.
> The result is USCG approved ply, well at least in
> Hughes charter cats. All you need for a bag is
> visqueen (?) You can stack sheats on top of each
> other, and next to each other in the same bag. You
> can make mega sheets that are infinite length, with
> stagered scarph joints. It is kind of fun. All you
> need is a shop vac, though with a sv, the last half
> inch of you ply (where the loads run wild) won't
> probably be bonded, that is usually where the waste
> goes anyway, but it does argue for either a vane pump,
> or stagered mega sheets if you want long material.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Build your own website in minutes and for free at
http://ca.geocities.com

I have built two boats by vaccum bagging 1/8'
doorskins together. One a Hughes Trimaran, and
another my Elegant Punt. In my neck of the woods 1/4"
1088 is about 70-80 Canadian. On the other hand, 1/8
doorskins are about 10-14 bucks they can be sourced
with good glue, and all the ones I have used didn't
have any voids. You can use a really cheap epoxy, I
used Chem Tech, since it is going to the neutral axis.
The result is USCG approved ply, well at least in
Hughes charter cats. All you need for a bag is
visqueen (?) You can stack sheats on top of each
other, and next to each other in the same bag. You
can make mega sheets that are infinite length, with
stagered scarph joints. It is kind of fun. All you
need is a shop vac, though with a sv, the last half
inch of you ply (where the loads run wild) won't
probably be bonded, that is usually where the waste
goes anyway, but it does argue for either a vane pump,
or stagered mega sheets if you want long material.

_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com

Checks are little "cracks" that show up in the surface veneers.
Fir is probably the worst for this.
A Lot of good boats have been build of Fir plywood.
Are you going to use "Marine Grade"? Meaning mostly that you
don't have to worry as much about as many "voids" in the core.
The sruface veneers of even "Marine Grade" fir will stll check
(that's why they call if fir), and there will be some footballs.
If you are not going to use Marine, shop around, and try to compare
some differnt plywoods. Some are obviously better than others.
From 25 years of buying plywood, unless there is a designated
"Cover Sheet", Never take the top sheet from a unit of plywood.
If someone says you have to, make a smart turn and leave.
If you can, go though several sheets and see what the sheets are
like. After a few, you will be able tell, as most units are fairly
uniform.
With 1/4" it is sometime possible to hold a sheet up to the sunlight
and see voids in the core. Some are inevitable. Many should be
avoided.
Pick the best plywood you can.
In actual constuction, if I intend to fiberglass only the outside, I
like to put the "Bad" side Out, and fill any checks, dings and such,
with thickened epoxy, smoothing while still wet, since it is going to
be totally sheathed with glass any way.
That leaves the "Good" side one the inside where it will be seen, and
only "coated".

Do as much epoxy work as you can while the plywood is flat, befor it
is made into a boat. It is much easier to work with in nice big,
flat, horizontal areas.

So, that is what "Checking" is, and Yes, you can use "Fir".

Have fun.

Warning - -
Boat Building May Be Addictive.

Pat

--- In bolger@y..., taz97355@y... wrote:
> I have the plans for a fishcat and am trying to make up my mind if
I
> should use something like Okumme or use fir plywood. What is meant
> by "checks" when referring to the use of fir plywood. If I glassed
> the exterior and epoxy coated the inside wouldn't fir be ok?
> I am asking these questions because it is my first wooden boat and
> most of the messages I have seen posted here look like there is a
> wealth of experience to learn from, thanks for any help.
> Terry

Thomas,
can i pick on you for a second?

>Glad to oblige!

these things you said in the message below... how many
of them have you experienced first hand? Which ones
have
you not experienced first hand?

I am not disputing there validity, but i am curious as
to there source, as i hear conflicting things on this
subject, from different people.

>Just let me start by saying that the checking problem

is a pottential problem with all fir ply, but some of
the other issues wouldn't be if we were comparing
Marine Grade fir, to Ocume 1088. Marine Grade fir
isn't locally available, and probably wouldn't be a
cost saving, and usually by "fir" people are referring
to some exterior grade construction ply. In that case
you may have glue and void problem, or you may not.
Careful examination is a good way to proceed

Best,
Richard

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:44:28 -0500 (EST)
From: thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...>
Subject: Re: First Boat

Checks are small cracks related to diferential
moisture conditions.

>Fir will develop lots of them. These I have

experienced often. You need a moisture problem. So if
your paint job never falters, or you glass, it
shouldn't be an issue. I was just painting a
catamaran two days ago that had fir beams, and 1088
hulls, lo and behold there was a teeny sand-through on
one of the beam edges, that I hadn't noticed last
year. It had silvered in the weather, and I just
painted it, there didn't appear to be any problem.
The same boat, exssentially mysteriously has a leakage
problem arround a PIHI, the bulkhead section is always
filling with water. This is the kind of problem that
is fixable, that I haven't got arround to yet, and if
there is any problem in the envelope could be serious.

>Another expert would be the Gougeons, who if anything

ought to be councelling for commercial reasons that we
all throw tons of epoxy to fix fir's problems, rather
than using 1088 and just getting on with it. They
built lots of boats using fir, some like Funky Tri are
still arround, last I heard. Maturity has tought them
it isn't worth it. I don't go that far, but use fir
carefully. I have exposed fir sheats in the yard, and
they check up quickly, but last forever. Ocume rots
away. So it isn't all one way.

If glassed you are OK, but you should possibly count
on glassing all exposed surfaces.

>THis is kind of the reverse of the above. When

Glassed it doesn't develop huge maintenance problems,
but you usually get print through, all the duchmen
etc.. eventually show through the surface, etc...
This also happens with scarfs on Ocume

Is the inside of a
fishcat out of the weather? Good fir plywood is nice
stuff, bad fir plywood is risky, some extra work, but
usually works out ok.

Even if you have a well
encapsulated boat, you can have trouble if there are a
lot of voids, which there may be in construction grade
stuff.

>I have certainly seen tons of voids, and putty fills

on certain grades of Fir, and you will keep seeing
them through the glass over the years.

These voids can develope moisture conditions
even within the capsule

>None of my boats have rotted, as far as I know, and

this hasn't been a problem for me. There is the claim
that it can be a condensation problem, I have seen
this sort of thing, but I haven't seen it in voids,
which I wouldn't unless I was repairing them or
something.

>This whole subject isn't really one that can be

easilly dealt with. If you asked "can a Doctor help
me understand my health problems?", most people would
say sure. If you say, can an unqualified individual
in the comunity help me with my medical problem?".
Who knows? SOme great advice has come my way from
non-doctors, but there isn't any way of certifying it.
Same with AC Fir. If it isn't certified for Boat
building, who knows what will happen? You may have a
good experience, you may have a bad one, so over the
line advise isn't worth much, except what to look out
for. Check the edges for voids, on several sheats any
voids on the edge, indicate likely voids inside and
that means the skins aren't suported. You can boil
test for glue.

_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com

Thomas,
can i pick on you for a second? these things you said in the message below... how many of them have you experienced first hand? Which ones have
you not experienced first hand?

I am not disputing there validity, but i am curious as to there source, as i hear conflicting things on this subject, from different people.

Best,
Richard

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 02:44:28 -0500 (EST)
From: thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...>
Subject: Re: First Boat

Checks are small cracks related to diferential
moisture conditions. Fir will develop lots of them.
If glassed you are OK, but you should possibly count
on glassing all exposed surfaces. Is the inside of a
fishcat out of the weather? Good fir plywood is nice
stuff, bad fir plywood is risky, some extra work, but
usually works out ok. Even if you have a well
encapsulated boat, you can have trouble if there are a
lot of voids, which there may be in construction grade
stuff. These voids can develope moisture conditions
even within the capsule.

---taz97355@...wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
I have the plans for a fishcat and am trying to make
up my mind if I 
should use something like Okumme or use fir plywood.
What is meant 
by "checks" when referring to the use of fir
plywood. If I glassed 
the exterior and epoxy coated the inside wouldn't fir
be ok? 
I am asking these questions because it is my first
wooden boat and 
most of the messages I have seen posted here look like
there is a 
wealth of experience to learn from, thanks for any
help. 
Terry 
 
</tt>

--
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. --Thomas Edison

Hi

I used fir on my Chebacco, and did exactly as you propose to do -- glass on
the outside hull (and anywhere the sun can reach), and epoxy coating inside.
This is standing up just fine.

Jamie Orr

-----Original Message-----
From:taz97355@...[mailto:taz97355@...]
Sent: November 19, 2001 11:33 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] First Boat

I have the plans for a fishcat and am trying to make up my mind if I
should use something like Okumme or use fir plywood. What is meant
by "checks" when referring to the use of fir plywood. If I glassed
the exterior and epoxy coated the inside wouldn't fir be ok?
I am asking these questions because it is my first wooden boat and
most of the messages I have seen posted here look like there is a
wealth of experience to learn from, thanks for any help.
Terry

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Checks are small cracks related to diferential
moisture conditions. Fir will develop lots of them.
If glassed you are OK, but you should possibly count
on glassing all exposed surfaces. Is the inside of a
fishcat out of the weather? Good fir plywood is nice
stuff, bad fir plywood is risky, some extra work, but
usually works out ok. Even if you have a well
encapsulated boat, you can have trouble if there are a
lot of voids, which there may be in construction grade
stuff. These voids can develope moisture conditions
even within the capsule.

---taz97355@...wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
I have the plans for a fishcat and am trying to make
up my mind if I 
should use something like Okumme or use fir plywood.
What is meant 
by "checks" when referring to the use of fir
plywood. If I glassed 
the exterior and epoxy coated the inside wouldn't fir
be ok? 
I am asking these questions because it is my first
wooden boat and 
most of the messages I have seen posted here look like
there is a 
wealth of experience to learn from, thanks for any
help. 
Terry 
 
</tt>

 
<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>


</body></html>

_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com

I have the plans for a fishcat and am trying to make up my mind if I
should use something like Okumme or use fir plywood. What is meant
by "checks" when referring to the use of fir plywood. If I glassed
the exterior and epoxy coated the inside wouldn't fir be ok?
I am asking these questions because it is my first wooden boat and
most of the messages I have seen posted here look like there is a
wealth of experience to learn from, thanks for any help.
Terry

At 02:25 PM 1/15/01 -0000, you wrote:

>Can you use 1/4 OSB to build a boat? It has the same glue as
>exterior grade plywood. I am building a Flat Skiff 11 from
>bateau.com. It will be sheethed in fiberglass and resin.

This subject rears it's ugly head again!

Aside from using it to make temporary molds and sheathing the sides of a
boat shop, OSB has no place in boatbuilding, much less on a boat.

Why?

It soaks up lots of water, then it falls apart.
It is heavy.
It is weak. You can easily put your foot or a knee through 1/4" OSB,
compare to 1/4" ply.
It won't take bending well. Nor will it bend in a fair curve.

Leave it be. I've used BC pine quite successfully and AC fir slightly less
sastifactorily.

Best,

JB

I suppose you can use OSB (or even cardboard) to build a boat, but I
sure wouldn't. I've used TONS of OSB for subfloors and exterior wall and
roof sheathing. It saves cost in those applications, but it doesn't like
to be around water. I have seen 3/4 OSB swell to nearly 1" thickness
after only a couple of rains. Once waterlogged, it looses much of its
strength It swells a lot more around the edges than in the middle,
causing ridges. Fasteners near the edges have a tendency to tear out. In
my opinion, even the cheapest ply would be far better.

Vince Chew

In a message dated 01/15/2001 9:<BR26:<BR22 AM
Eastern Standard ,lowfunk99@...writes:

> Can you use 1/4 OSB to build a boat? It has the same glue as
> exterior grade plywood. I am building a Flat Skiff 11 from
> bateau.com. It will be sheethed in fiberglass and resin. Is there
> any one in the Metro Detroit area that is building a boat that i
> could assist on?

You could...but there is *absolutely no* rational purpose in it. OSB would
probably be somewhat better than using shredded wheat biscuits; a boat can be
built from nearly anything. Sheathing it will make it last a bit longer, but
an AC pine plywood and no sheathing boat would be a better proposition from
most folks' point of view. OSB is little cheaper than AC pine or Luaun,
either of which will make a boat that will last for a long time.

Pick an easy project and ask questions...this list will be glad to help.

Cheers/Carron

Can you use 1/4 OSB to build a boat? It has the same glue as
exterior grade plywood. I am building a Flat Skiff 11 from
bateau.com. It will be sheethed in fiberglass and resin. Is there
any one in the Metro Detroit area that is building a boat that i
could assist on?