[bolger] Re: Light Scooner Bulkheads Cut!!!
<snip>
BO> This has to be one the boat designers worst nightmares, people
BO>using the boat outside of the origanal design goals. I don't
BO>know if Mr. Bolger intended for his scooner to be in the open
BO>ocean or not. Maybe you could give him a call and ask.
BO>Ron
THanks Ron. He didn't. The Singelhanded Schooner is open water capable
though.
Further to Ron's comment, and for the general benefit of the eGroup, I
hereby post portions of the Disclaimer and Warnings pages publicly
available onhttp://www.ace.net.au/schooner/disclaim.htm
WARNING The scooner is an open boat. She was designed essentially for
protected waters. She is NOT a sea-going boat. Stay away from anything
with
"ocean" or "sea" or "strait" in its name and be wary with anything
labelled "Gulf"
or "Great" as well.
You can expect to capsize her if you are foolish enough to drive her in
strong winds, with major
waves, and with inexperienced or incompetent crews and especially
helmspeople. But use her for
the waters she was designed for in reasonable conditions and she will be
a real delight.
We accept NO liability for anyone idiot enough to emulate the more risky
voyages described here.
Once was enough-take warning.
YOU are responsible for YOUR actions in YOUR boat.
The Light Schooner web pages have been compiled for fun and a bit of
potentially useful information. We take no responsibility for
any person building or sailing these boats and we accept no liability
for consequences of following suggestions in these pages. The
suggestions all have worked for us, they may not work for you. Sailing a
boat, any boat, requires a degree of commonsense and
experience. We do not suggest that anyone attempt to sail in some of the
weather conditions we have met-we don't want to repeat the
experience either.
TJ Fatchen
BO> This has to be one the boat designers worst nightmares, people
BO>using the boat outside of the origanal design goals. I don't
BO>know if Mr. Bolger intended for his scooner to be in the open
BO>ocean or not. Maybe you could give him a call and ask.
BO>Ron
THanks Ron. He didn't. The Singelhanded Schooner is open water capable
though.
Further to Ron's comment, and for the general benefit of the eGroup, I
hereby post portions of the Disclaimer and Warnings pages publicly
available onhttp://www.ace.net.au/schooner/disclaim.htm
WARNING The scooner is an open boat. She was designed essentially for
protected waters. She is NOT a sea-going boat. Stay away from anything
with
"ocean" or "sea" or "strait" in its name and be wary with anything
labelled "Gulf"
or "Great" as well.
You can expect to capsize her if you are foolish enough to drive her in
strong winds, with major
waves, and with inexperienced or incompetent crews and especially
helmspeople. But use her for
the waters she was designed for in reasonable conditions and she will be
a real delight.
We accept NO liability for anyone idiot enough to emulate the more risky
voyages described here.
Once was enough-take warning.
YOU are responsible for YOUR actions in YOUR boat.
The Light Schooner web pages have been compiled for fun and a bit of
potentially useful information. We take no responsibility for
any person building or sailing these boats and we accept no liability
for consequences of following suggestions in these pages. The
suggestions all have worked for us, they may not work for you. Sailing a
boat, any boat, requires a degree of commonsense and
experience. We do not suggest that anyone attempt to sail in some of the
weather conditions we have met-we don't want to repeat the
experience either.
TJ Fatchen
BO>the transom,) I decided to play it safe with the the full size version
BO>and cut according to PCB's plans. Of course I'll be cursing as we pound
BO>to windward when we're outside
Wise, wise, but let me assure you, you may well be cursing to windward
outside, but it won't be because of the pounding; rather, it'll be an
"oh sh-t" reaction to the realisation that the maximum freeboard of the
LS is 14 inches, and that a 4-5 foot tumbling-crest chop wave looks
awfully, awfully big from your seat on the floorboards (=and=capableof
filling the boat if you get your angles wrong)
We've done it, do it, but only because we're idiots who in occasional
excesses of ego idiotically enter races then fear the loss of face if we
pull out. The last effort, we pulled out anyway because we were simply
too tired from 15 miles (course made good) and 5 hours fighting against
the (gentle) 20 knotter blowing dead foul. Wave heights were only three
feet, too....
What this means is learn in protected, expand your experience to tougher
stuff gently, and with help at hand. Then you can emulate us, get real
smart five years down the line and end up sinking the boat twice in fits
of hubris and inattention.
BO>Butting the topside together ought to be a laugh -- the only place I
BO>can layout something that long is in the hallway of our house. I'll try
BO>not to send the cleat nails into the hardwood floors.
It's also the best place to laminate masts. Super hint: waxed paper and
polythene sheet will protect your carpet. Second super hint: assuming
you're using eopxy glues, use wallboard screws for temporary holding of
the butt, not permanent nails: see tips accessed from
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/build.htm
Tim & FT2
BO>and cut according to PCB's plans. Of course I'll be cursing as we pound
BO>to windward when we're outside
Wise, wise, but let me assure you, you may well be cursing to windward
outside, but it won't be because of the pounding; rather, it'll be an
"oh sh-t" reaction to the realisation that the maximum freeboard of the
LS is 14 inches, and that a 4-5 foot tumbling-crest chop wave looks
awfully, awfully big from your seat on the floorboards (=and=capableof
filling the boat if you get your angles wrong)
We've done it, do it, but only because we're idiots who in occasional
excesses of ego idiotically enter races then fear the loss of face if we
pull out. The last effort, we pulled out anyway because we were simply
too tired from 15 miles (course made good) and 5 hours fighting against
the (gentle) 20 knotter blowing dead foul. Wave heights were only three
feet, too....
What this means is learn in protected, expand your experience to tougher
stuff gently, and with help at hand. Then you can emulate us, get real
smart five years down the line and end up sinking the boat twice in fits
of hubris and inattention.
BO>Butting the topside together ought to be a laugh -- the only place I
BO>can layout something that long is in the hallway of our house. I'll try
BO>not to send the cleat nails into the hardwood floors.
It's also the best place to laminate masts. Super hint: waxed paper and
polythene sheet will protect your carpet. Second super hint: assuming
you're using eopxy glues, use wallboard screws for temporary holding of
the butt, not permanent nails: see tips accessed from
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/build.htm
Tim & FT2
<snip>
BO>In his notes for The Pirate Racer, PCB expresses a preference for tack
BO>and tape over chinelog fastening of the bottom to the topsides. Any of
BO>you Light Scooner builders have an opinion one way or the other?
I vote for chinelogs.
BO>Against the advice of counsel and Payson, this boat will likely be
BO>doing a bit of work outside, so I'm starting to give thought to
BO>buoyancy and/or self-bailing schemes. I'm already planing to seal up
BO>the aft, middle and forward sections. I think that'll go along way to a
BO>self rescuing boat. But I'm also thinking of some sort of raised
BO>floor/scupper combo to help her shed water from waves/knockdowns. Greg,
BO>Tim -- how much does a finished Light Scooner (no engine/fuel) weigh?
Dunno, never weighed! Varies depending on timber in any case (I know FT2
is heavy). For self-rescuing, pack that buoyancy in! Minimum 4 inches
under decks. Sealed fore, mid and aft as you're proposing. Bilge pumps
(consider venturi bailers too - I have but haven't got to fitting them).
Solid foam under securely attached floorboards. Fill the fore cockpit up
with bedding, tents, coolers etc. Set up a spray hood for the fore
cockpit. Additions, Gregg??
Tim & FT2
BO>In his notes for The Pirate Racer, PCB expresses a preference for tack
BO>and tape over chinelog fastening of the bottom to the topsides. Any of
BO>you Light Scooner builders have an opinion one way or the other?
I vote for chinelogs.
BO>Against the advice of counsel and Payson, this boat will likely be
BO>doing a bit of work outside, so I'm starting to give thought to
BO>buoyancy and/or self-bailing schemes. I'm already planing to seal up
BO>the aft, middle and forward sections. I think that'll go along way to a
BO>self rescuing boat. But I'm also thinking of some sort of raised
BO>floor/scupper combo to help her shed water from waves/knockdowns. Greg,
BO>Tim -- how much does a finished Light Scooner (no engine/fuel) weigh?
Dunno, never weighed! Varies depending on timber in any case (I know FT2
is heavy). For self-rescuing, pack that buoyancy in! Minimum 4 inches
under decks. Sealed fore, mid and aft as you're proposing. Bilge pumps
(consider venturi bailers too - I have but haven't got to fitting them).
Solid foam under securely attached floorboards. Fill the fore cockpit up
with bedding, tents, coolers etc. Set up a spray hood for the fore
cockpit. Additions, Gregg??
Tim & FT2
FBBB --
The SHS has a single open cockpit, and a 100 pound daggerboard. I've
already ordered the lead to make a weighted daggerboard for the LS.
I would agree that more floatation on the side is easier, and
probably better in knockdown situation. What I am more concerned with
is full swampage due to breaking waves. One of my thought was to
simply deck the whole damn thing and put some hiking straps and
handholds on her. Yes that puts some weight up even higher, but
slinging a couple of my fatter, stupider friends over the side.... Of
course when the wind dies, we're paddling with canoe paddles instead
of rowing with oars.
I won't go into the details of where or how I sail, let alone why I'd
want to do it in the LS, but my experiences in lil'winnie tells me
that a fast draining boat suits the way I sail. Not mandatory, but it
would be nice.
The real question is: Why do I want to turn the well thought-out,
professionally designed LS into some manic, surf-launched,
slow-motion disaster? I don't have a good answer except that I loved
the LS from the moment I set eyes on the pic at the instant boat web
site.
And speaking of that 100lbs daggerboard on the SHS, that seems
awfully heavy to cart around. Who thinks I'd ruin the LS by giving
her twin 50lbs. bilge boards?
David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
The SHS has a single open cockpit, and a 100 pound daggerboard. I've
already ordered the lead to make a weighted daggerboard for the LS.
I would agree that more floatation on the side is easier, and
probably better in knockdown situation. What I am more concerned with
is full swampage due to breaking waves. One of my thought was to
simply deck the whole damn thing and put some hiking straps and
handholds on her. Yes that puts some weight up even higher, but
slinging a couple of my fatter, stupider friends over the side.... Of
course when the wind dies, we're paddling with canoe paddles instead
of rowing with oars.
I won't go into the details of where or how I sail, let alone why I'd
want to do it in the LS, but my experiences in lil'winnie tells me
that a fast draining boat suits the way I sail. Not mandatory, but it
would be nice.
The real question is: Why do I want to turn the well thought-out,
professionally designed LS into some manic, surf-launched,
slow-motion disaster? I don't have a good answer except that I loved
the LS from the moment I set eyes on the pic at the instant boat web
site.
And speaking of that 100lbs daggerboard on the SHS, that seems
awfully heavy to cart around. Who thinks I'd ruin the LS by giving
her twin 50lbs. bilge boards?
David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
A thought about stability:
I would agree with those who indicate a raised floor/scuppers will probably
hurt the boat more than it helps make it self rescuing. Someone (TJ?)
mentioned that the single handed scooner was fit to go offshore. Now think
about the major difference between the two boats (other than the LS huge rig):
the singlehanded scooner has watertight decking all over with two shallow
wells. Hence, the boat would probably self-right and sail along with the wells
full of water. Soo....
Why not simply add more decking to the LS? You'd have to keep some well space;
but by adding wider side decks, you could probably maitain the fore/aft
length. Less spray would come aboard at any rate. If capsized, the amount of
water that could flood the wells would be less. I always thought most folks
sailed these boats sitting on the side decks anyway, for outside ballast and
because it looks comfortable. If you go this route, make sure everyone on
board knows what a jibe is if they're sitting up straight on the bigger side
decks.
Boats with floor decking above their waterline are tippy. My Deep V center
console with a self draining deck will roll you to death trolling around doing
race committee and chase boat work for a bunch of Lasers. Boston Whalers were
less so because of their hull shape. I know these examples are power boats,
but the lesson holds
Quoting G Carlson <ghartc@...>:
St. Petersburg, Fla.
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I would agree with those who indicate a raised floor/scuppers will probably
hurt the boat more than it helps make it self rescuing. Someone (TJ?)
mentioned that the single handed scooner was fit to go offshore. Now think
about the major difference between the two boats (other than the LS huge rig):
the singlehanded scooner has watertight decking all over with two shallow
wells. Hence, the boat would probably self-right and sail along with the wells
full of water. Soo....
Why not simply add more decking to the LS? You'd have to keep some well space;
but by adding wider side decks, you could probably maitain the fore/aft
length. Less spray would come aboard at any rate. If capsized, the amount of
water that could flood the wells would be less. I always thought most folks
sailed these boats sitting on the side decks anyway, for outside ballast and
because it looks comfortable. If you go this route, make sure everyone on
board knows what a jibe is if they're sitting up straight on the bigger side
decks.
Boats with floor decking above their waterline are tippy. My Deep V center
console with a self draining deck will roll you to death trolling around doing
race committee and chase boat work for a bunch of Lasers. Boston Whalers were
less so because of their hull shape. I know these examples are power boats,
but the lesson holds
Quoting G Carlson <ghartc@...>:
> I think mine weighs 400 or 450 pounds. I did seal up the sections noted,Robert N. Lundy
> as I don't think you could rescue it (we couldn't) without going to shore
> to pump it out. I added the biggest bilge pump and batteries as well.
> Nevertheless, capsizing in winds and waves and getting back underway is a
> big chore, so leave grandma at home when you go "outside".
>
> You can find he waterline using the hulls program, but I would guess it's 3
> or 4 inches when level. Of course, it's highly variable, as the crew will
> generally outweigh the boat, as in most dinghies.
>
> Gregg Carlson
>
>
>
>
> ><snip>
> >BO>In his notes for The Pirate Racer, PCB expresses a preference for tack
> >BO>and tape over chinelog fastening of the bottom to the topsides.'
>
> Both.
>
> >Any of
> >BO>you Light Scooner builders have an opinion one way or the other?
> >
> >I vote for chinelogs.
> >
> >BO>Against the advice of counsel and Payson, this boat will likely be
> >BO>doing a bit of work outside, so I'm starting to give thought to
> >BO>buoyancy and/or self-bailing schemes. I'm already planing to seal up
> >BO>the aft, middle and forward sections. I think that'll go along way to a
> >BO>self rescuing boat. But I'm also thinking of some sort of raised
> >BO>floor/scupper combo to help her shed water from waves/knockdowns. Greg,
> >BO>Tim -- how much does a finished Light Scooner (no engine/fuel) weigh?
> >
> >Dunno, never weighed! Varies depending on timber in any case (I know FT2
> >is heavy). For self-rescuing, pack that buoyancy in! Minimum 4 inches
> >under decks. Sealed fore, mid and aft as you're proposing. Bilge pumps
> >(consider venturi bailers too - I have but haven't got to fitting them).
> >Solid foam under securely attached floorboards. Fill the fore cockpit up
> >with bedding, tents, coolers etc. Set up a spray hood for the fore
> >cockpit. Additions, Gregg??
> >
> >Tim & FT2
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.
> >http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1701
> >
> >
> >
> >-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
> >--http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
> --http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=bolger&m=1
>
>
St. Petersburg, Fla.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I think mine weighs 400 or 450 pounds. I did seal up the sections noted,
as I don't think you could rescue it (we couldn't) without going to shore
to pump it out. I added the biggest bilge pump and batteries as well.
Nevertheless, capsizing in winds and waves and getting back underway is a
big chore, so leave grandma at home when you go "outside".
You can find he waterline using the hulls program, but I would guess it's 3
or 4 inches when level. Of course, it's highly variable, as the crew will
generally outweigh the boat, as in most dinghies.
Gregg Carlson
as I don't think you could rescue it (we couldn't) without going to shore
to pump it out. I added the biggest bilge pump and batteries as well.
Nevertheless, capsizing in winds and waves and getting back underway is a
big chore, so leave grandma at home when you go "outside".
You can find he waterline using the hulls program, but I would guess it's 3
or 4 inches when level. Of course, it's highly variable, as the crew will
generally outweigh the boat, as in most dinghies.
Gregg Carlson
><snip>Both.
>BO>In his notes for The Pirate Racer, PCB expresses a preference for tack
>BO>and tape over chinelog fastening of the bottom to the topsides.'
>Any of
>BO>you Light Scooner builders have an opinion one way or the other?
>
>I vote for chinelogs.
>
>BO>Against the advice of counsel and Payson, this boat will likely be
>BO>doing a bit of work outside, so I'm starting to give thought to
>BO>buoyancy and/or self-bailing schemes. I'm already planing to seal up
>BO>the aft, middle and forward sections. I think that'll go along way to a
>BO>self rescuing boat. But I'm also thinking of some sort of raised
>BO>floor/scupper combo to help her shed water from waves/knockdowns. Greg,
>BO>Tim -- how much does a finished Light Scooner (no engine/fuel) weigh?
>
>Dunno, never weighed! Varies depending on timber in any case (I know FT2
>is heavy). For self-rescuing, pack that buoyancy in! Minimum 4 inches
>under decks. Sealed fore, mid and aft as you're proposing. Bilge pumps
>(consider venturi bailers too - I have but haven't got to fitting them).
>Solid foam under securely attached floorboards. Fill the fore cockpit up
>with bedding, tents, coolers etc. Set up a spray hood for the fore
>cockpit. Additions, Gregg??
>
>Tim & FT2
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1701
>
>
>
>-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
>--http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
Hi David,
Maybe my post came across as preaching, not intende to be
that wat at all. Maybe I should have used more ;-) in there.
Anyway you asked for opinions, I gave mine. You could go to
sea on the back of a rubber duck for all I care ;-) , LOL , Ha
Ha.
Maybe "worst nightmare" was a little strong, just trying to
make a point.
I looked up your refrences in BWAOM. The plywood 12 1/2 is
well ballasted and a deep V shape. Very seaworthy. I'm not sure
what a 40 foot ballasted, round bilge, racing schooner has to
do with your boat, or the Wyoming for that matter.
Maybe my post came across as preaching, not intende to be
that wat at all. Maybe I should have used more ;-) in there.
Anyway you asked for opinions, I gave mine. You could go to
sea on the back of a rubber duck for all I care ;-) , LOL , Ha
Ha.
Maybe "worst nightmare" was a little strong, just trying to
make a point.
I looked up your refrences in BWAOM. The plywood 12 1/2 is
well ballasted and a deep V shape. Very seaworthy. I'm not sure
what a 40 foot ballasted, round bilge, racing schooner has to
do with your boat, or the Wyoming for that matter.
>From: "David" <david@...>
> out the best way to prepare my Light Scooner to meet her destiny. If
> that destiny include being dashed on the rock of Cabot's Cove, or
> lost in the Block Island Sound rip (along with me and my crew,) so be
> it.
"samson family" <bill.samso-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=985
spending as much money as I can at the lumber yard, and as little as I
can at the chandlery (sp?) I put one in my Laser 20 years ago, and it
must have been $30. For that price I can built another boat!
Above the waterline scuppers are still my first choice -- fast, and
hopefully simple. But research still continues...
Meanwhile, I tacked out the aft section of the topside and am about to
"spring a batton along the curve." Feels like "real" boat building --
pretty exciting.
YIBB,
--David
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=985
> Hi,You know
>
> Have you considered self-bailers let into the bottom of the boat?
> the kind? They open to let the water out when the boat is going fastenough
> to create the low pressure needed, and close again if water tries toflow
> back in.Yes, I have, and yes they do. However, one of my "design parameters" is
>
> They work nicely on racing dinghies.
spending as much money as I can at the lumber yard, and as little as I
can at the chandlery (sp?) I put one in my Laser 20 years ago, and it
must have been $30. For that price I can built another boat!
Above the waterline scuppers are still my first choice -- fast, and
hopefully simple. But research still continues...
Meanwhile, I tacked out the aft section of the topside and am about to
"spring a batton along the curve." Feels like "real" boat building --
pretty exciting.
YIBB,
--David
Hi,
Have you considered self-bailers let into the bottom of the boat? You know
the kind? They open to let the water out when the boat is going fast enough
to create the low pressure needed, and close again if water tries to flow
back in.
They work nicely on racing dinghies.
Bill
--bill.samson@...
Chebacco News can be viewed on:
http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Badley <badley@...>
To:bolger@egroups.com<bolger@egroups.com>
Date: 28 November 1999 02:32
Subject: [bolger] Re: Light Scooner Bulkheads Cut!!!
Have you considered self-bailers let into the bottom of the boat? You know
the kind? They open to let the water out when the boat is going fast enough
to create the low pressure needed, and close again if water tries to flow
back in.
They work nicely on racing dinghies.
Bill
--bill.samson@...
Chebacco News can be viewed on:
http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Badley <badley@...>
To:bolger@egroups.com<bolger@egroups.com>
Date: 28 November 1999 02:32
Subject: [bolger] Re: Light Scooner Bulkheads Cut!!!
>>From: "David" <david@...>
>
>> How much of a stablity penalty would this impart? Well without
>> resorting to a computer model, I'd have to guess not too much. On a
>> boat that sails with a crew of 3-5 hands (450-750lbs) it's hard to
>> imagine that the addition of 60 lbs anywhere (even on the lea rail,)
>> is going to make a fatal difference.
>
> It's not the 60 pounds of plywood so much as the 450-750
>pounds of crew sitting 9 inches higher than they should be. Add
>to that a couple hundred pounds of water above the waterline
>instead of below and you _will_ have a problem, maybe not
>fatal, but I'd be prepared to swim a little. If your set on
>having the self bailing cockpit then maybe a balasted dagger
>board will help keep the boat upright, or at least come back
>from a knock-down. This starts to get into some pretty big
>changes in the design.
>
> This has to be one the boat designers worst nightmares, people
>using the boat outside of the origanal design goals. I don't
>know if Mr. Bolger intended for his scooner to be in the open
>ocean or not. Maybe you could give him a call and ask.
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"ron badley" <badle-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=978
to be any higher. Still, the water could be a problem, better make BIG
scuppers.
My other thought is to drop the inside of the deck to the bottom of the
boat, and put a few holes in the bottom of the boat (with removable
stoppers.) This would let the water flow out the bottom while the
buoyancy hull drives her to the surface.
regarding the use and misuse of boat in general, and his in particular.
I'd point to chapters 28, 42, 66. I'm quite sure that he didn't intend
The Light Scooner as an open water boat. But I'd hardly call the chance
(no matter how likely) of me sailing to my doom in The Light Scooner
one of his worst nightmares.
Back when I live in SoCal, the final of the Thistle Mid-Winters West
were held outside. I'm sure the designer of The Thistle never intented
it to be sailed in 15-20 knots of wind, with a 2-3 chop on top of a 6-8
foot ground swell. But what fun it was! I'm sure Bruce Kirby never
"intended" his Laser to be surfed like a sailboard, but when we got a
stiff cross-shore and waves breaking in the jetter, we'd roll reef our
sail and go "hang ten." And I'm quite sure that The Teal wasn't meant
for "costal cruising," but that's what I did with the lil'winnie all
summer (nearly lossing her several times,) with many fish and good
times to show for my recklessness.
If PCB didn't design The Light Scooner as a self-bailer, it might be
because the neccasary modifications would produce a fatally flawed boat
of little use to anyone. But I think it's at least as likely that it
wasn't designed that way because the original commission didn't ask for
that.
Here's what I am ABSOLUTELY SURE about the design:
The Light Scooner is about the prettiest little thing I've ever seen in
my life. When I imagine her cruising the coves and inlets of LI's far
East End, I get a warm feeling in my heart and nostalgic tears in my
eyes. PCB himself could come to my house, tell me the he absolutely
disaproves of her being built for such a purpose and unplug my Skilsaw,
and I would nod politely and then punch him in the eye.
Regardless of what else about the design of The Light Scooner or PCB's
intent is open to speculation, I am absolutely sure that the above is
true. Given that, it seems a reasonable course of action to try to suss
out the best way to prepare my Light Scooner to meet her destiny. If
that destiny include being dashed on the rock of Cabot's Cove, or lost
in the Block Island Sound rip (along with me and my crew,) so be it.
YIBB,
--David
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=978
> >From: "David" <david@...>Crew sits on the deck, so only their knees and little feets are going
>
> > How much of a stablity penalty would this impart? Well without
> > resorting to a computer model, I'd have to guess not too much. On a
> > boat that sails with a crew of 3-5 hands (450-750lbs) it's hard to
> > imagine that the addition of 60 lbs anywhere (even on the lea rail,)
> > is going to make a fatal difference.
>
> It's not the 60 pounds of plywood so much as the 450-750
> pounds of crew sitting 9 inches higher than they should be. Add
> to that a couple hundred pounds of water above the waterline
> instead of below and you _will_ have a problem, maybe not
> fatal, but I'd be prepared to swim a little.
to be any higher. Still, the water could be a problem, better make BIG
scuppers.
My other thought is to drop the inside of the deck to the bottom of the
boat, and put a few holes in the bottom of the boat (with removable
stoppers.) This would let the water flow out the bottom while the
buoyancy hull drives her to the surface.
> This has to be one the boat designers worst nightmares, peopleI think BWAOM offers quite a bit of insight into PCB's attitude
> using the boat outside of the origanal design goals. I don't
> know if Mr. Bolger intended for his scooner to be in the open
> ocean or not. Maybe you could give him a call and ask.
regarding the use and misuse of boat in general, and his in particular.
I'd point to chapters 28, 42, 66. I'm quite sure that he didn't intend
The Light Scooner as an open water boat. But I'd hardly call the chance
(no matter how likely) of me sailing to my doom in The Light Scooner
one of his worst nightmares.
Back when I live in SoCal, the final of the Thistle Mid-Winters West
were held outside. I'm sure the designer of The Thistle never intented
it to be sailed in 15-20 knots of wind, with a 2-3 chop on top of a 6-8
foot ground swell. But what fun it was! I'm sure Bruce Kirby never
"intended" his Laser to be surfed like a sailboard, but when we got a
stiff cross-shore and waves breaking in the jetter, we'd roll reef our
sail and go "hang ten." And I'm quite sure that The Teal wasn't meant
for "costal cruising," but that's what I did with the lil'winnie all
summer (nearly lossing her several times,) with many fish and good
times to show for my recklessness.
If PCB didn't design The Light Scooner as a self-bailer, it might be
because the neccasary modifications would produce a fatally flawed boat
of little use to anyone. But I think it's at least as likely that it
wasn't designed that way because the original commission didn't ask for
that.
Here's what I am ABSOLUTELY SURE about the design:
The Light Scooner is about the prettiest little thing I've ever seen in
my life. When I imagine her cruising the coves and inlets of LI's far
East End, I get a warm feeling in my heart and nostalgic tears in my
eyes. PCB himself could come to my house, tell me the he absolutely
disaproves of her being built for such a purpose and unplug my Skilsaw,
and I would nod politely and then punch him in the eye.
Regardless of what else about the design of The Light Scooner or PCB's
intent is open to speculation, I am absolutely sure that the above is
true. Given that, it seems a reasonable course of action to try to suss
out the best way to prepare my Light Scooner to meet her destiny. If
that destiny include being dashed on the rock of Cabot's Cove, or lost
in the Block Island Sound rip (along with me and my crew,) so be it.
YIBB,
--David
>From: "David" <david@...>It's not the 60 pounds of plywood so much as the 450-750
> How much of a stablity penalty would this impart? Well without
> resorting to a computer model, I'd have to guess not too much. On a
> boat that sails with a crew of 3-5 hands (450-750lbs) it's hard to
> imagine that the addition of 60 lbs anywhere (even on the lea rail,)
> is going to make a fatal difference.
pounds of crew sitting 9 inches higher than they should be. Add
to that a couple hundred pounds of water above the waterline
instead of below and you _will_ have a problem, maybe not
fatal, but I'd be prepared to swim a little. If your set on
having the self bailing cockpit then maybe a balasted dagger
board will help keep the boat upright, or at least come back
from a knock-down. This starts to get into some pretty big
changes in the design.
This has to be one the boat designers worst nightmares, people
using the boat outside of the origanal design goals. I don't
know if Mr. Bolger intended for his scooner to be in the open
ocean or not. Maybe you could give him a call and ask.
Ron
richard spelling <richar-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=971
This may be so, but I am inclind to believe that if it helps get rid of
water faster and easier, it would be worth the loss of stablity.
Of course how much stablity would be lost is probably an important
question.
My guess is that it would take about 50-60 pounds of plywood and
bracing to raise the floors of both cockpits 9 inches above the bottom
(at the 2nd and 3rd bulkhead.) If I'm reading my plans correctly, this
would place the lowest point of the cockpit above the waterline, and
allow for swift drainage of any water taken aboard (a reallife report
on the waterline would be greatly appreciated. Greg? Tim?)
A selfbailing cockpit would be very desirable, since much of my sailing
is done in the open ocean. There's nothing like half a hull full of
water sloshing back and forth to deminish you boat's stablity.
How much of a stablity penalty would this impart? Well without
resorting to a computer model, I'd have to guess not too much. On a
boat that sails with a crew of 3-5 hands (450-750lbs) it's hard to
imagine that the addition of 60 lbs anywhere (even on the lea rail,) is
going to make a fatal difference.
I think the real question is how big a difference will it make holding
water 9 inches higher. Worst case senario has the boat filled with
water (breaker over the bow or stern), the water's not draining off
fast enough, and the weight of all that water sloshing around nine
inches higher takes her over. Better to have a little water low in the
bilge, than to have a lot trapped above the waterline.
So what's the answer? Build to plans and don't take her outside? Noone
will call you a fool for doing that. Raise the floor and give her 6"
diameter scuppers (with flaps)? Maybe, hard to say for sure without
doing it. Some other idea? I'm all ears!
YIBB,
David
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=971
> David wrote:to a
> >
> > Against the advice of counsel and Payson, this boat will likely be
> > doing a bit of work outside, so I'm starting to give thought to
> > buoyancy and/or self-bailing schemes. I'm already planing to seal up
> > the aft, middle and forward sections. I think that'll go along way
> > self rescuing boat. But I'm also thinking of some sort of raisedGreg,
> > floor/scupper combo to help her shed water from waves/knockdowns.
>stability.
> Raising the floor will raise the CG, and loose quite a bit of
This may be so, but I am inclind to believe that if it helps get rid of
water faster and easier, it would be worth the loss of stablity.
Of course how much stablity would be lost is probably an important
question.
My guess is that it would take about 50-60 pounds of plywood and
bracing to raise the floors of both cockpits 9 inches above the bottom
(at the 2nd and 3rd bulkhead.) If I'm reading my plans correctly, this
would place the lowest point of the cockpit above the waterline, and
allow for swift drainage of any water taken aboard (a reallife report
on the waterline would be greatly appreciated. Greg? Tim?)
A selfbailing cockpit would be very desirable, since much of my sailing
is done in the open ocean. There's nothing like half a hull full of
water sloshing back and forth to deminish you boat's stablity.
How much of a stablity penalty would this impart? Well without
resorting to a computer model, I'd have to guess not too much. On a
boat that sails with a crew of 3-5 hands (450-750lbs) it's hard to
imagine that the addition of 60 lbs anywhere (even on the lea rail,) is
going to make a fatal difference.
I think the real question is how big a difference will it make holding
water 9 inches higher. Worst case senario has the boat filled with
water (breaker over the bow or stern), the water's not draining off
fast enough, and the weight of all that water sloshing around nine
inches higher takes her over. Better to have a little water low in the
bilge, than to have a lot trapped above the waterline.
So what's the answer? Build to plans and don't take her outside? Noone
will call you a fool for doing that. Raise the floor and give her 6"
diameter scuppers (with flaps)? Maybe, hard to say for sure without
doing it. Some other idea? I'm all ears!
YIBB,
David
David wrote:
--
Richard
Spelling|richard@...|http://www.spellingbusiness.com
SBE Communications, Business Solutions for the next Millennium and
Beyond!
Boat building projects:http://www.spellingbusiness.com/boats/
>Raising the floor will raise the CG, and loose quite a bit of stability.
> Against the advice of counsel and Payson, this boat will likely be
> doing a bit of work outside, so I'm starting to give thought to
> buoyancy and/or self-bailing schemes. I'm already planing to seal up
> the aft, middle and forward sections. I think that'll go along way to a
> self rescuing boat. But I'm also thinking of some sort of raised
> floor/scupper combo to help her shed water from waves/knockdowns. Greg,
--
Richard
Spelling|richard@...|http://www.spellingbusiness.com
SBE Communications, Business Solutions for the next Millennium and
Beyond!
Boat building projects:http://www.spellingbusiness.com/boats/
FBBBs --
Well, I did it -- I cut out the bulkheads for the Light Scooner.
In spite of a 1/12 model looking very, very nice with a bit of dead
rise (about 4 inches on bulkhead #1 decreasing to 0 inches from #3 to
the transom,) I decided to play it safe with the the full size version
and cut according to PCB's plans. Of course I'll be cursing as we pound
to windward when we're outside, but I expect her sheltered water
performance will be excellent. Maybe after I've got this one sailing,
I'll make a second hull to try out my cockemamy ideas.
I decide to cut the bulkheads about 3/8" oversize, and cut the bevel
after the frames are attached. Came up with the idea of drilling the
plywood with a teenie little bit at the corners to transfer the lines
to the frameside of the bulkhead. Felt pretty clever!
In his notes for The Pirate Racer, PCB expresses a preference for tack
and tape over chinelog fastening of the bottom to the topsides. Any of
you Light Scooner builders have an opinion one way or the other?
Against the advice of counsel and Payson, this boat will likely be
doing a bit of work outside, so I'm starting to give thought to
buoyancy and/or self-bailing schemes. I'm already planing to seal up
the aft, middle and forward sections. I think that'll go along way to a
self rescuing boat. But I'm also thinking of some sort of raised
floor/scupper combo to help her shed water from waves/knockdowns. Greg,
Tim -- how much does a finished Light Scooner (no engine/fuel) weigh?
Butting the topside together ought to be a laugh -- the only place I
can layout something that long is in the hallway of our house. I'll try
not to send the cleat nails into the hardwood floors.
YIBB,
--David
Well, I did it -- I cut out the bulkheads for the Light Scooner.
In spite of a 1/12 model looking very, very nice with a bit of dead
rise (about 4 inches on bulkhead #1 decreasing to 0 inches from #3 to
the transom,) I decided to play it safe with the the full size version
and cut according to PCB's plans. Of course I'll be cursing as we pound
to windward when we're outside, but I expect her sheltered water
performance will be excellent. Maybe after I've got this one sailing,
I'll make a second hull to try out my cockemamy ideas.
I decide to cut the bulkheads about 3/8" oversize, and cut the bevel
after the frames are attached. Came up with the idea of drilling the
plywood with a teenie little bit at the corners to transfer the lines
to the frameside of the bulkhead. Felt pretty clever!
In his notes for The Pirate Racer, PCB expresses a preference for tack
and tape over chinelog fastening of the bottom to the topsides. Any of
you Light Scooner builders have an opinion one way or the other?
Against the advice of counsel and Payson, this boat will likely be
doing a bit of work outside, so I'm starting to give thought to
buoyancy and/or self-bailing schemes. I'm already planing to seal up
the aft, middle and forward sections. I think that'll go along way to a
self rescuing boat. But I'm also thinking of some sort of raised
floor/scupper combo to help her shed water from waves/knockdowns. Greg,
Tim -- how much does a finished Light Scooner (no engine/fuel) weigh?
Butting the topside together ought to be a laugh -- the only place I
can layout something that long is in the hallway of our house. I'll try
not to send the cleat nails into the hardwood floors.
YIBB,
--David