RE: [bolger] Re: Birdsmouth masts
No counter-counter here. You pays your money, you takes your choice. What
works best will depend on your shop setup, what tools you have, your stock,
how you like to work, whatever.
At least we agree there is more than one way!
Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From:jboatguy@...[mailto:jboatguy@...]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:34 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Birdsmouth masts
Jamie,
Of course there are other ways to build a mast. Some of them may even
be considered easier, depending. And not to knock your mast. But
with its rainbow of stock selection options, ease of construction,
and quality of the finished product, birdsmouth, to me, has no peer.
None even come close.
So, to counter....
one taper line, on a perfectly clean sheet of plywood--and you don't
even have to do that if you don't want to.
hand tight spiral of twine does the trick.
birdsmouth. It's fifteen minutes work to rig up a taper jig to make
perfect scarf cuts in narrow stock on a tablesaw, and scarf away ALL
the knots. Warped stock can be cut on a tablesaw, with some
difficulty, if it's not too severe. Even if the staves end up
warped, by the time they're in the mast they are straight as an arrow.
I say, you never WILL have to think of it with birdsmouth.
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
- no flogging dead horses
- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
- stay on topic and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
works best will depend on your shop setup, what tools you have, your stock,
how you like to work, whatever.
At least we agree there is more than one way!
Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From:jboatguy@...[mailto:jboatguy@...]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:34 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Birdsmouth masts
Jamie,
Of course there are other ways to build a mast. Some of them may even
be considered easier, depending. And not to knock your mast. But
with its rainbow of stock selection options, ease of construction,
and quality of the finished product, birdsmouth, to me, has no peer.
None even come close.
So, to counter....
> Is it easy to balance a screaming circular saw on a glued up massof
> wood, following a faint pencil line which itself is following apoorly
> defined taper, while trying not to get tangled up in the cord?You say yes. I say, there are no circular saws with birdsmouth.
> Is it easy laying out straight spars on warped blanks?You say yes. I say, you don't 'lay out' with birdsmouth, except for
one taper line, on a perfectly clean sheet of plywood--and you don't
even have to do that if you don't want to.
> Is it easy laying out 4 tapers on 4 sides of a rough spar blank?You say yes. I say, see above
> Is it easy glueing up your blank with 2 dozen or more clamps, andYou say yes. I say, no clamps are needed with birdsmouth. None. A
> trying to keep the huge weight of them, and the wood, straight, at
> the same time?
hand tight spiral of twine does the trick.
> Is it easy choosing between one rough 2x6 or another rough 2x6, andYou say go for straight. I say, you could concievably buy both with
> trying to judge whether tis better to be straighter and kottier, or
> slightly warped and less knotty?
birdsmouth. It's fifteen minutes work to rig up a taper jig to make
perfect scarf cuts in narrow stock on a tablesaw, and scarf away ALL
the knots. Warped stock can be cut on a tablesaw, with some
difficulty, if it's not too severe. Even if the staves end up
warped, by the time they're in the mast they are straight as an arrow.
> Is it easy watching those leftover knots in your spar as you sailis
> along in a rising breeze, wondering...wondering....how many knots
> one too many?You say you never think of it.
>
I say, you never WILL have to think of it with birdsmouth.
>way to skin
> Regards, John O'Neill
>
> Jamie Orr--- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
> Hey, I don't mean to knock birdsmouth, but there's more than one
> a catBolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
- no flogging dead horses
- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
- stay on topic and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
Jamie,
Of course there are other ways to build a mast. Some of them may even
be considered easier, depending. And not to knock your mast. But
with its rainbow of stock selection options, ease of construction,
and quality of the finished product, birdsmouth, to me, has no peer.
None even come close.
So, to counter....
one taper line, on a perfectly clean sheet of plywood--and you don't
even have to do that if you don't want to.
hand tight spiral of twine does the trick.
birdsmouth. It's fifteen minutes work to rig up a taper jig to make
perfect scarf cuts in narrow stock on a tablesaw, and scarf away ALL
the knots. Warped stock can be cut on a tablesaw, with some
difficulty, if it's not too severe. Even if the staves end up
warped, by the time they're in the mast they are straight as an arrow.
I say, you never WILL have to think of it with birdsmouth.
Of course there are other ways to build a mast. Some of them may even
be considered easier, depending. And not to knock your mast. But
with its rainbow of stock selection options, ease of construction,
and quality of the finished product, birdsmouth, to me, has no peer.
None even come close.
So, to counter....
> Is it easy to balance a screaming circular saw on a glued up massof
> wood, following a faint pencil line which itself is following apoorly
> defined taper, while trying not to get tangled up in the cord?You say yes. I say, there are no circular saws with birdsmouth.
> Is it easy laying out straight spars on warped blanks?You say yes. I say, you don't 'lay out' with birdsmouth, except for
one taper line, on a perfectly clean sheet of plywood--and you don't
even have to do that if you don't want to.
> Is it easy laying out 4 tapers on 4 sides of a rough spar blank?You say yes. I say, see above
> Is it easy glueing up your blank with 2 dozen or more clamps, andYou say yes. I say, no clamps are needed with birdsmouth. None. A
> trying to keep the huge weight of them, and the wood, straight, at
> the same time?
hand tight spiral of twine does the trick.
> Is it easy choosing between one rough 2x6 or another rough 2x6, andYou say go for straight. I say, you could concievably buy both with
> trying to judge whether tis better to be straighter and kottier, or
> slightly warped and less knotty?
birdsmouth. It's fifteen minutes work to rig up a taper jig to make
perfect scarf cuts in narrow stock on a tablesaw, and scarf away ALL
the knots. Warped stock can be cut on a tablesaw, with some
difficulty, if it's not too severe. Even if the staves end up
warped, by the time they're in the mast they are straight as an arrow.
> Is it easy watching those leftover knots in your spar as you sailis
> along in a rising breeze, wondering...wondering....how many knots
> one too many?You say you never think of it.
>
I say, you never WILL have to think of it with birdsmouth.
>way to skin
> Regards, John O'Neill
>
> Jamie Orr--- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
> Hey, I don't mean to knock birdsmouth, but there's more than one
> a cat
Hey, I don't mean to knock birdsmouth, but there's more than one way to skin
a cat. See answers below, based on building an actual 20' Chebacco mast out
of glued up blanks, with scarfs, tapers, the lot. This was my first mast
and I had a ball, finishing with a strong, reasonably light (under 40
pounds) mast.
-----Original Message-----
From:jboatguy@...[mailto:jboatguy@...]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:19 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Birdsmouth masts
Is it easy to balance a screaming circular saws on a glued up mass of
wood, folling a faint pencil line which itself is following a poorly
defined taper, while trying not to get tangled up in the cord?
Yes.
Is it easy laying out straight spars on warped blanks?
Don't buy warped.
Is it easy making scarfs in 4" wide planks?
Yes.
Is it easy laying out 4 tapers on 4 sides of a rough spar blank?
Yes.
Is it easy glueing up your blank with 2 dozen or more clamps, and
trying to keep the huge weight of them, and the wood, straight, at
the same time?
Yes.
Is it easy choosing between one rough 2x6 or another rough 2x6, and
trying to judge wheter tis better to be straighter and kottier, or
slightly warped and less knotty?
Don't buy warped -- avoid major knots by scarfing.
Is it?
See last answer.
Is it easy watching those leftover knots in your spar as you sail
along in a rising breeze, wondering...wondering....how many knots is
one too many?
I never think of it.
Cheers,
Jamie Orr
a cat. See answers below, based on building an actual 20' Chebacco mast out
of glued up blanks, with scarfs, tapers, the lot. This was my first mast
and I had a ball, finishing with a strong, reasonably light (under 40
pounds) mast.
-----Original Message-----
From:jboatguy@...[mailto:jboatguy@...]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:19 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Birdsmouth masts
Is it easy to balance a screaming circular saws on a glued up mass of
wood, folling a faint pencil line which itself is following a poorly
defined taper, while trying not to get tangled up in the cord?
Yes.
Is it easy laying out straight spars on warped blanks?
Don't buy warped.
Is it easy making scarfs in 4" wide planks?
Yes.
Is it easy laying out 4 tapers on 4 sides of a rough spar blank?
Yes.
Is it easy glueing up your blank with 2 dozen or more clamps, and
trying to keep the huge weight of them, and the wood, straight, at
the same time?
Yes.
Is it easy choosing between one rough 2x6 or another rough 2x6, and
trying to judge wheter tis better to be straighter and kottier, or
slightly warped and less knotty?
Don't buy warped -- avoid major knots by scarfing.
Is it?
See last answer.
Is it easy watching those leftover knots in your spar as you sail
along in a rising breeze, wondering...wondering....how many knots is
one too many?
I never think of it.
Cheers,
Jamie Orr
Bill,
Let me tell you why I'm unabashed birdsmouth fan. Cheap wood sticks.
Cheap wood sticks are heavy, and weak. There is no getting around
it. People make them 1)because doing otherwise is EXPENSIVE, and 2)
because it seems easier to build solid.
It ain't easier. Period.
Is it easy to balance a screaming circular saws on a glued up mass of
wood, folling a faint pencil line which itself is following a poorly
defined taper, while trying not to get tangled up in the cord?
Is it easy laying out straight spars on warped blanks?
Is it easy making scarfs in 4" wide planks?
Is it easy laying out 4 tapers on 4 sides of a rough spar blank?
Is it easy glueing up your blank with 2 dozen or more clamps, and
trying to keep the huge weight of them, and the wood, straight, at
the same time?
Is it easy choosing between one rough 2x6 or another rough 2x6, and
trying to judge wheter tis better to be straighter and kottier, or
slightly warped and less knotty?
Is it?
Is it easy watching those leftover knots in your spar as you sail
along in a rising breeze, wondering...wondering....how many knots is
one too many?
Once you get past the feeling that there must be somethign
complicated about it, and understand that there is not, birdsmouth is
the savior of homebuilders and their nearly universal long cylinder
anxiety.
John O'Neill
Do you like Ome are so heavy as to make the boat demonstrable
less stable, itself potentially disastrous, and so weak as to make
the
Let me tell you why I'm unabashed birdsmouth fan. Cheap wood sticks.
Cheap wood sticks are heavy, and weak. There is no getting around
it. People make them 1)because doing otherwise is EXPENSIVE, and 2)
because it seems easier to build solid.
It ain't easier. Period.
Is it easy to balance a screaming circular saws on a glued up mass of
wood, folling a faint pencil line which itself is following a poorly
defined taper, while trying not to get tangled up in the cord?
Is it easy laying out straight spars on warped blanks?
Is it easy making scarfs in 4" wide planks?
Is it easy laying out 4 tapers on 4 sides of a rough spar blank?
Is it easy glueing up your blank with 2 dozen or more clamps, and
trying to keep the huge weight of them, and the wood, straight, at
the same time?
Is it easy choosing between one rough 2x6 or another rough 2x6, and
trying to judge wheter tis better to be straighter and kottier, or
slightly warped and less knotty?
Is it?
Is it easy watching those leftover knots in your spar as you sail
along in a rising breeze, wondering...wondering....how many knots is
one too many?
Once you get past the feeling that there must be somethign
complicated about it, and understand that there is not, birdsmouth is
the savior of homebuilders and their nearly universal long cylinder
anxiety.
John O'Neill
Do you like Ome are so heavy as to make the boat demonstrable
less stable, itself potentially disastrous, and so weak as to make
the
--- In bolger@y..., "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> John wrote:
>
> >Bill
> >
> >Hollow masts should be plugged at the bottom, well past the
partners,
> >and TAPERED. Read the Birdsmouth Mast post about how to avoid
stress
> >concentrations
>
> John,
>
> Couldn't agree more (see back numbers of Chebacco News for a
detailed
> account by Gil Fitzhugh). Trouble is, there are so many simplistic
accounts
> of this process (and others) that the finer points are ignored -
with
> potentially disastrous consequences.
>
> It also seems (on several occasions recently) that dead horses are
being
> flogged on this list (see rules) and newbies to the list should
take the
> trouble to scan the archives before tapping the keys.
>
> Bill (getting more curmudgeonly by the minute - Well, somebody's
got to do
> it now that we've lost Chuck Merrell - a sad loss IMHO)
>
> Chebacco News can be seen at:-
>http://members.nbci.com/billsamson/
John wrote:
Couldn't agree more (see back numbers of Chebacco News for a detailed
account by Gil Fitzhugh). Trouble is, there are so many simplistic accounts
of this process (and others) that the finer points are ignored - with
potentially disastrous consequences.
It also seems (on several occasions recently) that dead horses are being
flogged on this list (see rules) and newbies to the list should take the
trouble to scan the archives before tapping the keys.
Bill (getting more curmudgeonly by the minute - Well, somebody's got to do
it now that we've lost Chuck Merrell - a sad loss IMHO)
Chebacco News can be seen at:-
http://members.nbci.com/billsamson/
>BillJohn,
>
>Hollow masts should be plugged at the bottom, well past the partners,
>and TAPERED. Read the Birdsmouth Mast post about how to avoid stress
>concentrations
Couldn't agree more (see back numbers of Chebacco News for a detailed
account by Gil Fitzhugh). Trouble is, there are so many simplistic accounts
of this process (and others) that the finer points are ignored - with
potentially disastrous consequences.
It also seems (on several occasions recently) that dead horses are being
flogged on this list (see rules) and newbies to the list should take the
trouble to scan the archives before tapping the keys.
Bill (getting more curmudgeonly by the minute - Well, somebody's got to do
it now that we've lost Chuck Merrell - a sad loss IMHO)
Chebacco News can be seen at:-
http://members.nbci.com/billsamson/
Could one take the big stick you're going to cut the pieces from? Cut the
birdmouths on one face, allowing for a blade cut width between each
birdmouth? Turn the stick on it's side, with the birdmouth side facing away
from the blade and cut the taper? Then turn the stick so that the stick lies
on it's birdmouth side and rip the pieces? Thro most of the process one
would play with a big stick, seems saver and easier. I'm asking the experts.
Haven't tried it, but I can't wait to make that Nymphs mast. I've got a
volunteer, with a saw bench, who doesn't know how full of dust we'll make
his garage!!
Paul
- NZ, where it is suppose to be summer and sailing time, but where it is
either windy(30kts+) or raining like today.
birdmouths on one face, allowing for a blade cut width between each
birdmouth? Turn the stick on it's side, with the birdmouth side facing away
from the blade and cut the taper? Then turn the stick so that the stick lies
on it's birdmouth side and rip the pieces? Thro most of the process one
would play with a big stick, seems saver and easier. I'm asking the experts.
Haven't tried it, but I can't wait to make that Nymphs mast. I've got a
volunteer, with a saw bench, who doesn't know how full of dust we'll make
his garage!!
Paul
- NZ, where it is suppose to be summer and sailing time, but where it is
either windy(30kts+) or raining like today.
Obviously some people are interested in 'birdsmouth' spars. Just as
obviously some people are hearing about it piecemeal. The WoodenBoat
article was what turned me on to it. If there was an article in MAIB
I'd love to see it.
If you are at all curious, open the birdsmouth folder in the files.
It gives info on figuring dimensions etc. Birdsmouth masts can have
other than eight staves. Eight is the easiest because
the 'birdsmouth' cut is symetrical. 12 is also perfectly feasable,
and results in even more easier handeled, narrower staves. (the more
the staves the stronger the mast) The birdsmouth in that case is cut
at a 30 degree angle. I've build two 12 stave masts.
Birdsmouth masts can be round, oval, octoganal, elliptical, and
probably a lot of other things as well.
The diameter of a finished, round mast is predicated on two things,
the width of the staves, and the depth of the birdsmouth cut. Width
is equal to circumference divided by the number of staves. Ideally
the birdsmouth cut should span the entire thickness of the stave, to
meet exactly at the wall. If it is too shallow, the mast will be
wider. If it is too deep, the stave width is necessarilly made
shorter, narrowing the mast.
Taper is cut from the side opposite the birdsmouth, such that the
width of the stave is proportional the diameter of the mast from top
to bottom. Other posts give some taper jig tips.
Birdsmouth is EXTREMELY effecient in wood use. A 3.5" mast is 11" in
circumference. You could build that mast,using birdsmouth, from a
single board 12" wide (of a suitable thickness). The extra inch is
for kerf waste. It doesn't get much better than that. It makes
birdsmouth CHEAP, relatively speaking. Better still, that 12" can
come from stock of virtually any width, since an eight stave mast's
staves are only 1 3/8" wide.
And because the staves are so narrow, they can be easily scarfed up
from shorter stock, because the scarfs are BRUTALLY easy to make on a
tablesaw. So easy as to make a mockery of any attempt to scarf
together fat, ugly stock for a solid mast of the same size.
Using epoxy, birdsmouth is very tolerant of mistakes. Furthermore,
the taper can be cut clear down to the very tip of the birdsmouth.
Even if the stave splits for a short length, once it's glued up, it's
solid as wood and epoxy can be. Which is pretty GD solid.
USE A PLUG in the bottom of the mast up past the partners. After
you've made a hollow mast, you are so expert at making hollow
cylinders that making another one, much shorter, is an hour's job.
Make it the size of the hole in your mast. Taper the staves, but
don't taper the plug! That way the plug's staves stick up like
pointy fingers inside the mast, slowly dissispating the sectional
area of the mast, and thereby avoiding stess concentrations, which
would otherwise occur at a plug that terminated abrubtly.
If the growth rings are kept parallel to the face of the mast,
trimming to size is easier.
Glue-up is so easiy and satisyfing as to be actually relaxing. Use
epoxy. You'll have all the time in the world, not that you need it,
the staves almost literally fall into place after you have the base
assembled. The base is easy to assemble by rolling it up around your
plug like dough around a rolling pin. Clamp with a spiral wrap of
waxed twine, hand tight, just to keep the staves next to each other
until the epoxy dries. Don't forget to make sure it's straight! If
you want one face straight, just lay it flat on a straight surface,
and the other staves will adjust to it.
Good luck
John O'Neill
PS, for those of you still confused, Boatbuilder has accepted an
article I wrote, geared to the homebuilder, on how to build a
birdsmouth mast, why to build a birdsmouth, and how to make them
virtually any shape you want them, including elliptical. It has a lot
more info than WoodenBoats article, and might even be out in the next
issue (don't count on it.) For the article I built a tapered
elliptical, proof of concept test section and it is the sexiest thing
on my desk. I have a horrible picture of it which I'll post. Somehow
the scan didn't work right....
obviously some people are hearing about it piecemeal. The WoodenBoat
article was what turned me on to it. If there was an article in MAIB
I'd love to see it.
If you are at all curious, open the birdsmouth folder in the files.
It gives info on figuring dimensions etc. Birdsmouth masts can have
other than eight staves. Eight is the easiest because
the 'birdsmouth' cut is symetrical. 12 is also perfectly feasable,
and results in even more easier handeled, narrower staves. (the more
the staves the stronger the mast) The birdsmouth in that case is cut
at a 30 degree angle. I've build two 12 stave masts.
Birdsmouth masts can be round, oval, octoganal, elliptical, and
probably a lot of other things as well.
The diameter of a finished, round mast is predicated on two things,
the width of the staves, and the depth of the birdsmouth cut. Width
is equal to circumference divided by the number of staves. Ideally
the birdsmouth cut should span the entire thickness of the stave, to
meet exactly at the wall. If it is too shallow, the mast will be
wider. If it is too deep, the stave width is necessarilly made
shorter, narrowing the mast.
Taper is cut from the side opposite the birdsmouth, such that the
width of the stave is proportional the diameter of the mast from top
to bottom. Other posts give some taper jig tips.
Birdsmouth is EXTREMELY effecient in wood use. A 3.5" mast is 11" in
circumference. You could build that mast,using birdsmouth, from a
single board 12" wide (of a suitable thickness). The extra inch is
for kerf waste. It doesn't get much better than that. It makes
birdsmouth CHEAP, relatively speaking. Better still, that 12" can
come from stock of virtually any width, since an eight stave mast's
staves are only 1 3/8" wide.
And because the staves are so narrow, they can be easily scarfed up
from shorter stock, because the scarfs are BRUTALLY easy to make on a
tablesaw. So easy as to make a mockery of any attempt to scarf
together fat, ugly stock for a solid mast of the same size.
Using epoxy, birdsmouth is very tolerant of mistakes. Furthermore,
the taper can be cut clear down to the very tip of the birdsmouth.
Even if the stave splits for a short length, once it's glued up, it's
solid as wood and epoxy can be. Which is pretty GD solid.
USE A PLUG in the bottom of the mast up past the partners. After
you've made a hollow mast, you are so expert at making hollow
cylinders that making another one, much shorter, is an hour's job.
Make it the size of the hole in your mast. Taper the staves, but
don't taper the plug! That way the plug's staves stick up like
pointy fingers inside the mast, slowly dissispating the sectional
area of the mast, and thereby avoiding stess concentrations, which
would otherwise occur at a plug that terminated abrubtly.
If the growth rings are kept parallel to the face of the mast,
trimming to size is easier.
Glue-up is so easiy and satisyfing as to be actually relaxing. Use
epoxy. You'll have all the time in the world, not that you need it,
the staves almost literally fall into place after you have the base
assembled. The base is easy to assemble by rolling it up around your
plug like dough around a rolling pin. Clamp with a spiral wrap of
waxed twine, hand tight, just to keep the staves next to each other
until the epoxy dries. Don't forget to make sure it's straight! If
you want one face straight, just lay it flat on a straight surface,
and the other staves will adjust to it.
Good luck
John O'Neill
PS, for those of you still confused, Boatbuilder has accepted an
article I wrote, geared to the homebuilder, on how to build a
birdsmouth mast, why to build a birdsmouth, and how to make them
virtually any shape you want them, including elliptical. It has a lot
more info than WoodenBoats article, and might even be out in the next
issue (don't count on it.) For the article I built a tapered
elliptical, proof of concept test section and it is the sexiest thing
on my desk. I have a horrible picture of it which I'll post. Somehow
the scan didn't work right....